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Author Topic: Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out  (Read 16125 times)

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Offline porphyry

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Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« on: September 02, 2003, 11:22:54 AM »
Sharp are apparently going to release the first PORTABLE Minidisc recorder in about 10 years to feature an optical out  :D (on the docking cradle).

This means you don't have to spend $300 on a good minidisc deck with optical out to get the PCM into a computer.

Find out about it here:

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sharp_IM-DR580.html

Something like only the first two portable minidisc recorders released by Sony, back in 1992, have had optical outs. The minidisc format has of course improved dramatically since then, with the differences between ATRAC 1 and ATRAC4 Type S kind of like comparing cassette to CD (I'm exaggerating, but its certainly the case in terms of noise!)

Opinions? Comments?

Offline mde420

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2003, 05:24:22 PM »
It's about Frickin' time!
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Offline Styx Cover Band

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2003, 06:06:42 PM »
It's about Frickin' time!

Good Call. Now is this something that is only going to be released in Japan?
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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2003, 03:35:13 AM »
i'll pass

Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2003, 08:39:31 AM »
the more i think about it, the more i feel like this is just indicative of how the minidisc format is lagging behind other digital music formats.

we've waited ages for a means of getting a digital signal out of a portable recorder, and finally we get one, but its SPDIF PCM, when what would be even more desirable is a USB transfer system!

after all, USB transfers would eliminate the need (for some people) of buying an expensive soundcard with optical-in to get their recordings onto their computer. with USB, all they'd have to do is drag and drop...

by the time USB uploading from minidisc recorders becomes common, the iPods and iRivers and JB3s of the future will probably have moved onto some other, new form of digital transfers.

this really sucks too, because in every other way, minidisc technology is the superior portable digital music format (IMO). by now, minidiscs should have replaced cassette as the average consumer's choice of music recording medium. (minidiscs also have numerous other uses in terms of data storage - how many people know that Sony has already developed a minidisc with a 650Mb capacity (compared to standard minidiscs, which hold about one fifth of that)?)

Sony can't screw their customers like this for so long and get away with it.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2003, 09:33:51 AM »
by now, minidiscs should have replaced cassette as the average consumer's choice of music recording medium.

There are good reasons MD hasn't replaced cassettes.  CD(R)s have replaced cassettes, and IMO are simply a better replacement than MD.

Sony can't screw their customers like this for so long and get away with it.

Apparently, they can.  And have.

And at any rate, most of Sony's products are targeted at the general public, people who aren't very knowledgeable about audio, video, etc., and frankly couldn't care less if their MD has a digital out.  I think the real question is:  why haven't other prosumer electronics companies stepped up to deliver the products and feature sets for which prosumer markets are willing to pay good money?

DSL offers another fine example of this same problem.  I simply want megabit broadband, both up- and download speeds.  The only way I can achieve these speeds (in my area) is by purchasing a business contract DSL at $300+/mo, including gobs of features and services about which I, as a residential user, couldn't care less.  It really wouldn't take much for the DSL provider to offer the speeds I want at an elevated cost consistent with their existing residential pricing scheme.  Yet...they won't do it.

So, in both cases, it's likely that either  [a] the market simply isn't there and these organizations can't make a significant enough profit relative to their investment, or they're idiots.  IMO, it's likely some combination of both [a] and .

Besides, IMO, the real issue is not why or why not the MD manufacturer's aren't producing MDs with broader, more useful feature sets.  The real issue is how long it will take - and if - the manufacturers of HD players to figure out that if they offer the right recording feature set, they will (and should) wipe MD recorders/players off the face of the earth for good.
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Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2003, 12:36:44 PM »
allow me to get back up on my soapbox.

like DATheads, MD fans - of which i am one - also have a strange, unhealthy obsession with these pretty, shiny little plastic discs.

although they are extremely popular, i don't think CD-Rs have quite taken over from cassettes. this is partly because you don't see cheap, mainstream 'stereos' sold with CD-R burning drives, but they still all come with cassette decks.
the fact that blank cassettes are still being sold is also significant.

i want MDs to succeed on the same scale as did cassettes, and here are some reasons why:
1) self-interest - i've invested a lot of money, and interest, in Minidisc technology (being too young, i think, for the DAT generation) and want everyone to use minidiscs in everyday life, so the technology and the features improve, for me.
2) i don't think there is a huge difference, quality-wise, between SP mode MD, and CD-R. keep in mind also that Sony have developed a 650Mb capacity minidisc, so there is the potential of bringing this onto the market (whilst making current low capacity minidiscs compatible with the new technology).
3) DAT, though probably technically superior, is too expensive. minidiscs are cheap as chips. and again, the high capacity minidisc offers the possibiliy of UNcompressed minidisc music.
4) i HATE mp3, wma, and vqf, and i don't want any of them to succeed, because they are absolute rubbish, quality-wise. hopefully as internet connections and hard disk capacities improve the need for mp3 will disappear (we could be swapping WAV over the internet one day). i like the latest generation, SP mode ATRAC codec, i think it is the perfect compression ratio and has very minimal loss of quality.
5) minidiscs are easy. add a minidisc deck to a simple, cheap, mainstream stereo and it will be even easier for the average person to operate than a cassette deck (since its all digital and there's none of the tape-winding nonsense).
6) once minidiscs start becoming accepted in the mainstream consumer music world, they can be added as data drives on computers, in digital cameras, etc. etc. (go to www.minidisc.org for more information on this)

don't get me wrong - CD-R is great, but when you can do the same thing with something drastically smaller (ie. high capacity minidiscs), and which can also be used for small portable music devices (lets face it, discmans are too big) - then why not?

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2003, 12:49:23 PM »
Rubbish. I'll reply when I get a chance today.

Offline dklein

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2003, 01:22:32 PM »

DSL offers another fine example of this same problem.  I simply want megabit broadband, both up- and download speeds.  The only way I can achieve these speeds (in my area) is by purchasing a business contract DSL at $300+/morders/players off the face of the earth for good.

Silly boy Brian - don't you know it costs them much more money to make electrons flow in the opposite direction :lol:
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2003, 01:48:25 PM »

DSL offers another fine example of this same problem.  I simply want megabit broadband, both up- and download speeds.  The only way I can achieve these speeds (in my area) is by purchasing a business contract DSL at $300+/morders/players off the face of the earth for good.

Silly boy Brian - don't you know it costs them much more money to make electrons flow in the opposite direction :lol:

LMAO  Cheers!
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2003, 03:04:05 PM »
allow me to get back up on my soapbox.

Of course!  Only if you don't mind my trying to knock it out from under you.   :P

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like DATheads, MD fans - of which i am one - also have a strange, unhealthy obsession with these pretty, shiny little plastic discs

Unhealthy is right!

Quote
although they are extremely popular, i don't think CD-Rs have quite taken over from cassettes. this is partly because you don't see cheap, mainstream 'stereos' sold with CD-R burning drives, but they still all come with cassette decks.
the fact that blank cassettes are still being sold is also significant.

Cheap mainstream stereos with or without CDR burners isn't the issue.  The physical device utilized for duplicating media has merely shifted from the cheap mainstream all-in-one-box stereo to computer.  The fact that people are utilizing CDR en masse is what's important, not the physical device.  All the dup'ing people do now is on CDRs, with very few exceptions (a few throwbacks still using cassette, a couple freaks using MD, and some geeks pushing new technology like HD and DVD).

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1) self-interest - i've invested a lot of money, and interest, in Minidisc technology (being too young, i think, for the DAT generation) and want everyone to use minidiscs in everyday life, so the technology and the features improve, for me.

Selfish bastard!!    :o

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2) i don't think there is a huge difference, quality-wise, between SP mode MD, and CD-R.

Depends on the playback system, but I've easily identified the sources in blind tests.  MD just doesn't cut it in this regard, but then again - most consumers don't give a damn.  All this is irrelevant, though, because the real issue is MD v. HD, not MD v. CDR.

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keep in mind also that Sony have developed a 650Mb capacity minidisc, so there is the potential of bringing this onto the market (whilst making current low capacity minidiscs compatible with the new technology).

Bah.  Who needs a 650MB disc when you can have a massive HD?!?

Quote
3) DAT, though probably technically superior, is too expensive. minidiscs are cheap as chips. and again, the high capacity minidisc offers the possibiliy of UNcompressed minidisc music.

True, DAT is expensive.  But the issue IMO is no longer MD v. DAT, but rather MD v. HD.  HD will win.  (Care to place a wager?)  Again, high capacity MDs to support uncompressed music become meaningless relative to the massive storage available on HD devices.

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4) i HATE mp3, wma, and vqf, and i don't want any of them to succeed, because they are absolute rubbish, quality-wise.

Hear hear!!

Quote
hopefully as internet connections and hard disk capacities improve the need for mp3 will disappear (we could be swapping WAV over the internet one day).

I don't think so.  The reality is even if most folks had the capability to swap WAVs online, they generally don't give a rat's ass about quality, so why bother waiting 4x as long for a d/l when a crappy MP3 satisfies them just as well?  Those of us with broadband who care about quality are already swapping WAVs online in the form of SHN and FLAC.

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i like the latest generation, SP mode ATRAC codec, i think it is the perfect compression ratio and has very minimal loss of quality.

Nah.  The perfect compression is lossless compression.  But with a massive HD device, why bother compressing at all during recording, or even for playback?  Again, HD wins in my book.

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5) minidiscs are easy. add a minidisc deck to a simple, cheap, mainstream stereo and it will be even easier for the average person to operate than a cassette deck (since its all digital and there's none of the tape-winding nonsense).

Cassettes are already a relic.  MD is easy?  Sure, if you don't mind schlepping around all those MDs.  Just as easy, easier even, soon enough - today with certain devices - to hook up a portable HD device to a mainstream stereo.  Who wants to mess with all those messy little discs?  And no need to add an MD or HD unit to the mainstream stereo, simply provide an input for portable HD devices.

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6) once minidiscs start becoming accepted in the mainstream consumer music world

Once...?  I had to chuckle at this one.  This is a key point and I agree with you completely:  MD can only succeed if it's accepted in the mainstream consumer music world.  However, if MD was going to be accepted in the mainstream consumer music world, it would've happened already.  No way are music labels going to start producing commercially available recordings on MD.  CDR owns the market, and will continue to do so.  MD is niche, now, just like DAT.  CDRs already have a huge consumer base, and HD recorders are the next progression - not in place of but in addition to CDR - because it is IMO, in all ways superior to MD:

[1]  Ability to carry much more data much more compactly
[2]  Superior sound quality due to no lossy compression
[3]  Easy integration with existing devices already dominant in the market place - primarily computer-based CD burners and output to mainstream stereos
[4]  Ability to store multiple filetypes (pics, video, email, etc.) instead of just audio

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they can be added as data drives on computers, in digital cameras, etc. etc. (go to www.minidisc.org for more information on this)

HD/memory devices beat 'em to the punch.  Even if MD is superior in this regard, which I don't think it is (see 1-4 above), first-to-market often makes all the difference in the world.  How many digital cameras and other consumer devices store data on CDR?  Not many.  Why?  Too many options for much larger storage capacities, with HD beating a path to replace the memory devices.

Quote
don't get me wrong - CD-R is great, but when you can do the same thing with something drastically smaller (ie. high capacity minidiscs), and which can also be used for small portable music devices (lets face it, discmans are too big) - then why not?

Agreed!  Only the replacement for - but more likely addition to - CDR will be HD, not MD.  (see 1-4 above)

It may not happen as quickly as I want, or with the specific combinatino feature sets I want, but it will happen - HD devices will rule the marketplace.

(Can anyone tell I'm bored at work today?)
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Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2003, 03:43:02 PM »
Thanks, Brian - you saved me a lot of time!

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2003, 03:45:34 PM »
Thanks, Brian - you saved me a lot of time!

lol  You're welcome, Armen.  I wanted to go on and on...but I actually have to get some work done today.   ::)
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2003, 03:53:36 PM »
I know the feelin'... me too... ;)

Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2003, 06:36:11 PM »
well i'm glad i was able to give you some entertainment at work.

allow me to clarify a few things:

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Rubbish. I'll reply when I get a chance today.  

either type something meaningful or nothing at all. "nothing", without any reasons, isn't really a decent rebuttal. also, stay true to your word and take the time to reply, rather than copping out.

Quote
Bah.  Who needs a 650MB disc when you can have a massive HD?!?

fair point. but what i was getting at was MD replacing small capacity storage devices, like floppy disc drives. i probably should have said this.

Quote
Quote:
hopefully as internet connections and hard disk capacities improve the need for mp3 will disappear (we could be swapping WAV over the internet one day).
 

I don't think so.  The reality is even if most folks had the capability to swap WAVs online, they generally don't give a rat's ass about quality, so why bother waiting 4x as long for a d/l when a crappy MP3 satisfies them just as well?  Those of us with broadband who care about quality are already swapping WAVs online in the form of SHN and FLAC.

i was kind of thinking about so far into the future that downloading a WAV file, with an 'average' internet connection, will be faster than it is to download an MP3 today. thus, IMO, MP3 will be supersueded by uncompressed music; and it will be the mainstream internet music format, not just something that concerns tapers.

Quote
Quote:
6) once minidiscs start becoming accepted in the mainstream consumer music world
 

Once...?  I had to chuckle at this one.

i was merely speaking HYPOTHETICALLY, trying to explain why i want minidisc to succeed. i am not deranged, i do not believe that MDs will take over the world.

i think possibly the point i was arguing was misunderstood.  :( i don't think minidisc will surpass cassette or CDR or whatever. i even concede that HD probably will be a very popular medium for portable music and data. i was just going off on a tangent about why i wish minidisc was more successful.  :'(

one day i will embrace HD... when they start making live recordings a standard feature, when they stop making the JB3 look like a friggin discman, when they stop crapping on about bloody MP3s and WMAs.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2003, 06:59:19 PM »
well i'm glad i was able to give you some entertainment at work.
Cheers!   :cheers:

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Quote
Rubbish. I'll reply when I get a chance today.  

either type something meaningful or nothing at all. "nothing", without any reasons, isn't really a decent rebuttal. also, stay true to your word and take the time to reply, rather than copping out.

Armen, I'm gonna chime in here because this is in the context of my broader post - he did reply later, effectively agreeing with everything I wrote:  "Thanks, Brian - you saved me a lot of time!"  Posting to indicate a forthcoming message is neither a copout (given he agreed with my post and stated as such) nor intended as a rebuttal.

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Bah.  Who needs a 650MB disc when you can have a massive HD?!?

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fair point. but what i was getting at was MD replacing small capacity storage devices, like floppy disc drives. i probably should have said this.

Ahhhh...gotcha.  Well, I also think MD won't replace in this context, either.  Flash/memory cards will, however.  They're already damn cheap, and they can already be used in portable devices like PDAs.  Just a question of time til the HD devices support expansion packs which allow interfacing with flash/memory cards as well.

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i was kind of thinking about so far into the future that downloading a WAV file, with an 'average' internet connection, will be faster than it is to download an MP3 today. thus, IMO, MP3 will be supersueded by uncompressed music; and it will be the mainstream internet music format, not just something that concerns tapers.

Well...since MP3s are smaller file sizes, they'll always download faster, so WAVs will never be faster, even with super fast internet speeds.  What will happen, though, is the relative time to download will become less of an issue - the ratio will remain the same, but the units of time will become small enough that it won't necessarily be advantageous to download MP3 over WAV (unless you don't care and want to save HD space so you can fit 3 gazillion songs on your monster HD).

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i was merely speaking HYPOTHETICALLY, trying to explain why i want minidisc to succeed. i am not deranged, i do not believe that MDs will take over the world.

I know, no offense intended, apologies if it came off that way.

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i think possibly the point i was arguing was misunderstood.  :(

Definitely.  Thanks for clarifying.  :)

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one day i will embrace HD... when they start making live recordings a standard feature, when they stop making the JB3 look like a friggin discman, when they stop crapping on about bloody MP3s and WMAs.

Agreed!!  I, too, don't understand why they made the JB3 in its current discmanesque form.  Totally dufus.  We're still a little ways off from effective HD recorders, though the JB3 seems a pretty good start for affordable, consumer recording, including WAVs - goodbye MP3 and WMA!
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2003, 07:12:52 PM »

Quote
Rubbish. I'll reply when I get a chance today.  

either type something meaningful or nothing at all. "nothing", without any reasons, isn't really a decent rebuttal. also, stay true to your word and take the time to reply, rather than copping out.

Hello, there, big fella! How long is a day? Eh?
Since you insulted the validity of my word, allow me to outline a few points to explain (in brief, I reiterate, for those who can't tell):

-Composing a well-thought out reply takes a lot longer than reading something.
-I read posts when Corel Draw 11 takes a few seconds to complete a process.
-Writing long replies takes up time that I don't often have at work. Most of my posts today were short and some of them were irreverent.

I did not post a "decent rebuttal" because I wished to let the TS public, who would presumably post replies of its own when I could not, know that there was another involved in the discussion. It's better than chiming in later as a lurker or bandwagoneer, someone seeming to agree with the majority's opinion because it belongs to the majority.
Be sure, this thread would get replies from me with the same basic content as Brian's. Seeing as how he beat me to it, I think it pointless for me to write my own replies or quote his with "yeah d00d, +T, right on".
Take my word for what you will.
Armen

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2003, 08:31:50 PM »
armen and brian are right on here, i used to use minidisc b/c it was a cheap way getting into taping, but the whole time i was just saving to buy a dat and a laptop  which i have both now, and MD has no chance in suceeding verse HD, why compress something when no compression at all can be applied at 24/96.  i just dont see the correct reasoning here for this kid to say MD should take over, sure its small and portable, but how long have they been out with now digi outs, over 10 years, shit they only sold mainstream music in MD the first couple of years it was out, the recording industry has moved on and cd-r is the main media around.  i dont see why some people like it so much to tape, i can tell right away if show is MD, just dont see the validity in the points that were made on the pro-MD side, ill leave the rest up to brian and armen in this thread, .02

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2003, 10:54:24 PM »
Opinions? Comments?

Heh...you asked for 'em, you got 'em!!  One thing there's plenty of around here, opinions.  Good topic!    :)
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2003, 02:47:39 AM »
Opinions? Comments?

Heh...you asked for 'em, you got 'em!!  One thing there's plenty of around here, opinions.  Good topic!    :)

thats one thing you  will def. find a lot of hear, many opinions from many people

Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2003, 05:16:33 AM »
yes i agree that the topic produced more interesting debate than the topic itself.  :)

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WAVs will never be faster, even with super fast internet speeds.  What will happen, though, is the relative time to download will become less of an issue - the ratio will remain the same, but the units of time will become small enough that it won't necessarily be advantageous to download MP3 over WAV

yes! thats what i was saying! am i that hard to understand?

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i just dont see the correct reasoning here for this kid to say MD should take over

allow me to reiterate, one more time: i don't think MD will succeed over CDR or HD or whatever. i don't think it will replace floppy disk drives either.

i was merely rehashing, for my own sake really, the reasons for why MD should have done better than it has done, years and years ago. obviously today, with HD and such, it has no chance, but it could have replaced cassette six or seven or eight years ago, if Sony had done things differently.

perhaps i didn't make this clear enough, i don't know.  ??? whatever.

i'm bitter about MD. i've invested a lot of time and money in it but have to accept that one day i'll have to do the same with HD.

the consumer electronics industry sucks like that.


« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 05:21:17 AM by porphyry »

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2003, 07:52:37 AM »
yes! thats what i was saying! am i that hard to understand?

This isn't exactly an ideal medium for communication.  Sometimes it takes a couple iterations before everyone's understood.  Don't sweat it.   :)

allow me to reiterate...i don't think it will replace floppy disk drives either.

Well, you fooled me!!  See:

but what i was getting at was MD replacing small capacity storage devices, like floppy disc drives.

I'm feeling pretty damn bitter about DAT, lately, with all the troubles I've had.  I am fired up for HD recorders!!  Stinkin' DATs...
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Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2003, 11:07:01 AM »
to avoid confusion, i probably should have begun my tirade with the heading

'what should have happened by now'

i admit responsibility for the misunderstandings.  :-[

everything i said about minidisc was HYPOTHETICAL. i was saying it should have replaced cassettes, it should have replaced floppy discs, and here's some reasons why.

this is all the same stuff that floats around on minidisc community pages. we're all trying to convince each other that minidisc is not a dying obscurity.  :)

roll on HD. woohoo.  :-\

Offline John R

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2003, 11:08:57 AM »
not to be one of armen's 'yeah d00d' types, i'll throw my thoughts into the fray...

i do not own MD, if i embraced another form of media storage, i'd never be able to see my floor.

as a DAT owner, i'd love for all MD owners to be able to move to DAT, this way the media would be interchangeable, and i wouldn't have some one coming up into my blissfully relaxed area at around 76 minutes waiting to change their media.  or wondering "where is the MD guy in the front of the chain all the other MD guys are waiting on?"

all MD guys should invest in portable power.  one sla will power an MD for the entire day.  

MD is a virtually indestrucable(sp) media, i love that.

tracking and editing can be done on the fly, i wish CDR could do that(in a perfect, affordable world)

for me the best place for MD would be making my own mixes for bombing downhill on board or bike.

jr

oh yeah, the digi i/o thing is kind of a bummer too
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 11:10:05 AM by John R »
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2003, 11:17:18 AM »
My MZ-R700 is the most reliable piece of gear I've ever seen. Puddles of water and 6' drops onto concrete in a deluge, optical cable snapped off, and guess what keeps recording? It and MD media have proven their reliability to me time and time again.
But I can't keep doing it. I just can't. Disc flips are one thing I can deal with, and even the ATRAC sometimes, but my transferring process takes so goddamned motherfucking long to complete that spending $420 on a dying, troublesome format (the D8 I have on the way) is worth it.
I have to do so much to get a MD digital transfer to work that I don't even want to transfer any more. It's not worth my 4-5 hours per disc.
So DAT it is, for now. HD in the future.

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2003, 11:18:26 AM »
And John, making those mixes is what MD was made for and where it can't be beat by ANY removable media format.

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2003, 11:46:09 AM »
but my transferring process takes so goddamned motherfucking long to complete that spending $420 on a dying, troublesome format (the D8 I have on the way) is worth it.
I have to do so much to get a MD digital transfer to work that I don't even want to transfer any more. It's not worth my 4-5 hours per disc.
So DAT it is, for now. HD in the future.

Um, don't DAT transfers occur in realtime as well?  (if you're getting a DDS drive, I guess this is a moot point).  That's why I got out of the DAT game as soon as I could.

Now WHERE'S MY 722!?!?!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 11:46:27 AM by Lee »
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Offline John R

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2003, 11:46:40 AM »
And John, making those mixes is what MD was made for and where it can't be beat by ANY removable media format.

i hear ya.

jr
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Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2003, 12:39:39 PM »
MD is definitely still worthwhile as a portable music format.

OK, so the discs don't hold a whole lotta music. but what other removable media does? they are very very cheap, too.

in my case, when i left australia to live in france and england (where i'm currently based) for a year, i was able to take most of my music collection with me on about 30 or 40 minidiscs, which all fit into a bag about the same size as you store a mini DV camera in.

my Sony mz-n10, along with a simple stereo microphone and battery box/bass roll-off from the sound professionals, also allowed me to tape all the concerts i've been to - and are going to go to - in england.

MD satisfied all the criteria:
- very small, doesn't take up much space (as opposed to CDs and discmans)
- the sound quality is fine (it is portable music, so you can't expect the earth!)
   --> i don't have to encode my music as MP3s
- can play my music on most stereos with simple connections

the most important thing though is being able to bootleg concerts by my favourite bands. i couldn't afford DAT or a JB3 on top of a minidisc recorder.

i also believe very much in removable, storable media. i like to have a physical object that i know, if taken care of, is going to keep my music as long as need be. this is one of the drawbacks of HD: at this stage, it isn't removable (at least not that i know of).

MD suits me fine. for now at least.



Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2003, 01:02:12 PM »
the most important thing though is being able to bootleg concerts by my favourite bands.

We all, as tapers, suffer from the misnomer "bootleg" with respect to what we do.  Perhaps "record concerts" would be more appropriate language than "bootleg concerts".  Just a pet peeve of mine.

MD suits me fine. for now at least.

Cheers!  Different strokes for different folks.  I can't imagine taking all my CDs to England when I travel there for work...ugh!
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2003, 01:52:30 PM »
but my transferring process takes so goddamned motherfucking long to complete that spending $420 on a dying, troublesome format (the D8 I have on the way) is worth it.
I have to do so much to get a MD digital transfer to work that I don't even want to transfer any more. It's not worth my 4-5 hours per disc.
So DAT it is, for now. HD in the future.

Um, don't DAT transfers occur in realtime as well?  (if you're getting a DDS drive, I guess this is a moot point).  That's why I got out of the DAT game as soon as I could.

Now WHERE'S MY 722!?!?!

Lee, my friend, allow me to explain. Transferring in realtime is my friend. I dream of transferring in realtime and being done with it. That's the EASY part of my transferring process. I'm SO looking forward to having one sole realtime transfer, then tracking, then that's it. I go through so much shit to get a MD onto CD the way it should be:

Optical transfer MD from MDS-JE520 home deck: length of disc
Scrolling through Sound Forge to find millisecond-long dropouts that result from the deck playing back spots during which the recorder was moved in the field. These dropouts are not present when played back through the MZ-R700 portable recorder, just the deck with digital out. And all Sony decks are finicky like this. I have to be so, so careful not to move the MZ-R700 faster than less than 1/2" per second while recording, because I know that during playback through the deck, I'll have dropouts. This inhibits my ability to check levels, settings, recording time, etc in the field: 20 minutes+
Load the MD into the MZ-R700 and play back those spots that I've located by zooming in a scrutinizing the waveform, 1/8" stereo mini out of the MZ-R700 to line in on my sound card, some of which are located in clusters, others by themselves (and these clusters can number anywhere between 3 and 20 per disc), then organize the separate recorded files: 20 minutes+
***NOW IT GETS FUN***
Adjust the volume of the portable's analog-recorded spots to match those of the digital raw file. Sometimes EQ is necessary, too, and you'd better hope that you had your analog input levels adjusted right during portable playback. Plus, the two transfers sound significantly different to begin with: 10-30 minutes
By identifying peak structures that look alike on the portable's healthy transfer spots and the digital complete transfer, go crazy adding markers and adjusting them TO THE PIXEL at maximum zoom settings on each, and hope they match up PERFECTLY when you copy the analog transfer spots into the digital transfer dropouts, deleting, cutting, pasting, waiting for Sound Forge to deal with a 1GB+ file... also known as the "Splicing Process," along with bullshitting bad connecting points on the wav with the pencil tool and EQing/adjusting volume/wishing to God that you hadn't checked your levels or rec time during a song/wondering why you ever bother taping in the first place: at least 1-4 hours+ (sadly, I've gotten pretty talented at this)
Burn a CD with this one long wav file. Listen to it critically all the way through, pausing if you leave the room, and hoping that if you rewind a second the button doesn't slip and sned you back to the beginning of the track. Locate and identify dropouts that you could not see during the initial transfer in Sound Forge: length of disc
Repeat the Splicing Process for those spots you couldn't see the first time: 15 minutes-2 hours+ (depending on the amount and severity)
Track it out in CD Wave: 15 minutes
Burn and listen critically one final time for dropout errors: length of disc

All of my masters are done this way. This is why I don't evem bother mastering most of my MDs. It's just not worth it.
Schwilly continues to advise me to give up the digital transfer and just do it analog out of the recorder, but I just don't feel right about it. I can hear the the sonic differences.
And at least I don't get dropouts on my masters, unless I'm walking. Schwilly does even when playing out of his portable sometimes.
I realized that I just couldn't fucking stand it any longer, so last week I bought a D8. End of MD and all this cockshit for me, as good a trustworthy friend as my MZ-R700 has been...
Armen
P.S. EDIT: emboldenedified the "times" involved
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 03:01:43 PM by zhianosatch »

Offline John R

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2003, 05:56:17 PM »
armen, i use goldwave and am ignorant of soundforge.  that said, couldn't you just leave the big wave file open in sf and not burn it, and make the corrections on the screen as you listen to the file?

jr
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2003, 06:01:46 PM »
Not quite make corrections on the screen, but I could play the file and listen for dropouts in Sound Forge, yes. But this requires me leaving Sound Forge open while I stare at a waveform on the screen while I could be doing something more productive like playing Battlefield.
Burning's not the problem - either way, I have to listen attentively for the entire length of the disc.
:'(
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 06:02:49 PM by zhianosatch »

Offline John R

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2003, 06:03:14 PM »
ah, battlefield.  the root tof the problem ;D

jr
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2003, 06:04:46 PM »
Ha. The root of the problem is the Splicing Process. I spent months working on mastering my friend Brad's Tool 11-22-02 recording and got good at it. But it still takes hours. And hours. And I say fuck it.

Offline John R

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2003, 06:22:28 PM »
one advantage of being the archivist is getting to track at the show and not having to fuck with it later.  even so, if it is to be seeded anywhere, still get to adhere to the almighty e-treestandard.

jr
we all live downstream.

Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2003, 06:25:49 PM »
The problem is in the dropouts resulting from the deck having trouble reading spots on the master. If I don't want audible dropouts in my music, I have to either do this or do an analog transfer out of the portable.
The dropouts are way, WAY more than annoying!
If etree doesn't like my dropouts... good for them. I don't either!

Offline John R

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2003, 07:23:33 PM »
i don't like dropouts any more than the next guy.  but as we've discussed earlier, i burn and track for me, not for traders.

jr
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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2003, 08:30:12 PM »
Same here, John. Don't know how traders came up... but yeah...
This is the only way to get a clean CD with my equipment. Guaranteed. :angry2:
A

Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2003, 04:16:07 AM »
i feel obligated to reply in here because I am part of Team MD.
I hate the dropout too, but here's 2 reasons why I don't upgrade 1) I can't affoard to 2) I just delete the dropout and deal with it for the half second that it sounds weird, fuck what other people think.

I don't care for optical outs on portable units. we shouldn't be using portables to transfer anyway.  It doesn't matter really, if you use it, that's fine because I do too, but that's why they sell home decks.

as soon as a sweet HD recorder hits the market, I'll be all over it.  MD is good for me now, but it is not the future.

Offline Lee

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2003, 05:19:47 PM »
ahh... it all becomes clear now.

My process is much simpler, since I tend to adhere to the SMS "fuck it standard" and don't touch my recordings in post process.  

First, I get it right at home:  I've spent over a year now listening to tapes of different equipment, tried different things, and mixed and matched the pieces of my rig to get the sound I like.  I have that now, and I'm sticking with it.  Except for maybe some omni caps...

Second, (and I realize you stealth guys don't have this luxury in the field): I get it right in the venue.  Mic placement, configuration, and cap selection are where most of my correction for shitty venue sound occurs.

Finally, I minimize "after the fact" adjustments.  If (god forbid) there is a dropout or stand bump or shrieking spun wookie on my "tape," I leave it there.  My goal is to record what happened at the show, while minimizing those odd occurances (see above) that can fuck up a tape.

Finally finally, I don't care if people think my stuff sucks.  Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and most of 'em stink.  If you don't like my source, tracking, or seeding, please go fuck yourself on the way to buying the equipment that will allow you to tape.  I'm doing this for me; getting it out to the community is an afterthought.
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Offline John R

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2003, 05:25:04 PM »
ahh... it all becomes clear now.

My process is much simpler, since I tend to adhere to the SMS "fuck it standard" and don't touch my recordings in post process.  

First, I get it right at home:  I've spent over a year now listening to tapes of different equipment, tried different things, and mixed and matched the pieces of my rig to get the sound I like.  I have that now, and I'm sticking with it.  Except for maybe some omni caps...

Second, (and I realize you stealth guys don't have this luxury in the field): I get it right in the venue.  Mic placement, configuration, and cap selection are where most of my correction for shitty venue sound occurs.

Finally, I minimize "after the fact" adjustments.  If (god forbid) there is a dropout or stand bump or shrieking spun wookie on my "tape," I leave it there.  My goal is to record what happened at the show, while minimizing those odd occurances (see above) that can fuck up a tape.

Finally finally, I don't care if people think my stuff sucks.  Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and most of 'em stink.  If you don't like my source, tracking, or seeding, please go fuck yourself on the way to buying the equipment that will allow you to tape.  I'm doing this for me; getting it out to the community is an afterthought.

Hello Lee.

I too leave in everything that gets recorded.  basically, i only fade and ultramaximze if i have too.

jr
we all live downstream.

Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2003, 05:40:03 PM »
I don't know, I just cannot listen to a recording I made when there are dropouts. I almost never change anything sonically; fixing those dropouts is the only thing I do in post... because they fucking PISS ME OFF!
I leave hooters and hollerers on my tapes, too - I leave everything on there, including my beloved post-shows.
Just... man... those dropouts make it impossible for me to listen to my recordings, and fixing them takes hours... the only "after the fact" adjusting that I do is ridding myself of the goddamned drops. The shitty thing is, I have to do that for EVERY show, because no matter how careful I am, inevitably at least some dropouts will appear and take me hours to correct.
Hence my wallet opens wiiiiiide and I buy a DAT DAT DATeroo...
A

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2003, 05:41:55 PM »
I wish I could deal with the drops without having to splice in the clean spots... either by deleting them or ignoring them... I really do... but I just can't...

Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2003, 05:59:01 AM »
the first real show myself and armen taped. static-x 6/27/02, I had dropout but instead of deleting it or ignoring it I spliced in another part of the song since it was the chorus ;D

Offline Scuba Jeremy

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2003, 07:36:58 PM »
I've taped over 25 shows on MD, and have only had a dropout once from bumping the deck in REC mode. Only one dropout! What are you people doing with your decks?

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2003, 08:01:05 PM »
It's the home deck having trouble reading the bumped spots.

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2003, 10:33:58 AM »
Ahh, yeah, that problem I've had. But only when I'm playing back tapes on my car's Sony in dash recorded from my Sharp portable. It must be some kind of Sony thing, I'd assume. The MDs play back perfectly on the Sharp portable and my Pioneer MJ-D707.

Offline kennedy

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2003, 01:34:46 PM »
FRIENDS DONT LET FRIENDS USE MINI DISC....... ;)


Offline Simp-Dawg

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2003, 02:25:46 PM »
ok, just read back through this whole thread...armen, i have never heard of such problems with dropouts!  maybe i have been out of the MD game for too long, but it's really only been 1.5 yrs since i was strictly taping on MD, and only a patcher then...i don't recall any dropouts (at least i can't remember right now) from moving the deck in the field, of course i only tape taper friendly bands and usually have a place on the ground to stash the deck, so movement is minimal when checking levels or time remaining.
i only did md transfers on this weird japanese sony md station...it has a removeable deck similar in size to the larger md decks (not the squarish ones) and docks in a little station, about the size of a cable box (on top of your tv) but shaped very oddly....i'll have to take a pic of it.  i think the model is mzr4st.  anyways it has an optical out and i went into my soundblaster live 5.1 with digi/opti i/o module (yeah i used sb live but it frikkin worked fine at the time and was relatively cheap!) and, as i said before, i don't recall EVER having any dropouts.  maybe because it was another "portable" type machine i was going out of and not a home deck.
anyways, just wanted to drop my .02 in the bucket.  
that does sound like a LENGTHY LENGTHY process for you, but your supreme dedication to quality fixing those dropouts earns you a +T and mucho respect.  that's more patience than most have.
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Offline Scuba Jeremy

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2003, 02:29:33 PM »
The dropouts only occur between two different decks. You'll rarely hear those errors played back on the same deck you recorded it on, unless it was a laser jump type of skip, then you're screwed. Even then, I only get weird drop outs when I play a disc back on my Sony deck, so it might just be a Sony problem. Too bad. They created the medium, Sharp perfected it!

Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2003, 05:04:34 AM »
FRIENDS DONT LET FRIENDS USE MINI DISC....... ;)



then I must not have many friends here!  The reason I get drop out on my MDs is because I get ball sweat all over the discs before I use them.  But it's weird, I recorded 4 hours at a rave one time, I was dancing had the mic AND recorder in the air in my hand and not one dropout all 4 hours.  Then I go to a "tame" show, not much movement of the deck and I'll get 4 dropouts in a show.  weird...

Offline dklein

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2003, 02:57:11 AM »
This dropout thing is crazy!  Never heard of such a thing.  I've got over 40 md masters and maybe had 3 dropouts from bumping the recorder (and they were always audible on the Sharp portable as well as the Sony deck used for playback).

Now I did get dropouts during the digital transfer process because my soundcard setup (Nightingale) seemed fussy.  So I shut other apps down, turned off virus protection and things like the power management feature that turns off your hard drives after x minutes.

Then I'd do every transfer twice, line 'em up and paste invert one on top of the other in Cool Edit Pro.  If I didn't get perfect cancellation (0 signal) I'd do another transfer and paste invert onto the two I had.  Occasionally it would take 2 or 3 tries but that's how I knew I had a perfect transfer.

Shit,  I would have given up a long time ago if I had to do that splicing routine!
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older recording gear: UA-5  / emagic A62 / laptop / JB3 / CSB / AD20 / Sharp MT-90 / Sony MDS-JE510
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Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2003, 01:50:03 PM »
I almost did... :'( I guess I attribute my dedication to youthful optimism or something... either way, it should end soon, although my mfin' sound card won't get a fuckin' signal from my nearly-new D8 and active 7pin!
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!

Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2003, 04:58:30 AM »
you took away the butterfly power, now it's acursed

Offline Mic D

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2003, 12:24:39 PM »
Has any one ever seen one of these? It's the only portable MD with an optical out I have ever heard of.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2003, 12:28:24 PM by Mic D »

Offline Mic D

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2003, 12:25:34 PM »
.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2003, 12:33:30 PM by Mic D »

Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2003, 12:31:58 PM »
hmmmmmm

Offline dklein

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2003, 12:46:33 PM »
Hey - I think a buddy of mine in Montreal has one of those that he bought in Japan many years ago!  You wouldn't want to use it for recording because it has the early (and supposedly nasty) version of ATRAC compression, which has been dramatically improved upon.  It also weighs a ton and only goes for an hour on batteries I think.

But...it would be fine for playback and transfers!  The ATRAC decompression algorithm hasn't (and can't) change, so if you record with a newer player you're good.  If you're going to use it for that, keep in mind that you can buy a full size used minidisc deck with optical or coax out for $50-150 on eBay, so pay accordingly.

david
KM 184 > V2 > R4
older recording gear: UA-5  / emagic A62 / laptop / JB3 / CSB / AD20 / Sharp MT-90 / Sony MDS-JE510
Playback: Pioneer DV-578 > Lucid DA 9624 >many funny little british boxes > Linn Isobarik PMS

Offline Mic D

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2003, 01:02:27 PM »
I knew it was very old but that's about it. I bought it from a friend of mine a while back (VERY cheap) but never used it to record a show because of the battery issue. Transfering was the only use it got until I bought a D8. It's been collecting dust for about 3 1/2 years now. Thanks for the info. +T

 

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