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Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)  (Read 187480 times)

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Offline guysonic

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Re: live sample
« Reply #210 on: February 27, 2010, 11:47:33 PM »
Here a sample of a live recording in a concert hall. It is Bill Frisell trio and the sound of his guitar comes out pretty good.

Grateful for your feedback.
For what it is, actually sounds good.  Here is what it looks like analysing a portion normalized.  Not much bass below 40, but didn't mention settings on the deck so maybe bass filter was used, or mics lack low end, or both.  Not much above 15K Hz either, but typical of mics and PA speakers.  Phase plot shows interesting higher frequency shifts making the recording sound not so mono at times.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 11:56:35 PM by guysonic »
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Offline Napo

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #211 on: February 28, 2010, 12:09:21 PM »
WoW, Guysonic; that was a heck of analysis for a newbie like me.

A need a clarification on 'Not much bass below 40, but didn't mention settings on the deck '. Is the deck which you refer to, my PCM-M10? I do not believe it is possible to set bass for the recording on the M10.

I have also noticed the abence of bass. In other situations when I was recording at high record level, the bass were coming rather booming. My question: How the mics catch the low frequency, is it linked to the recording level?
Best from Italy
CA-11's>CA-9200>M10

Offline chrise

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #212 on: February 28, 2010, 12:24:37 PM »
Is the deck which you refer to, my PCM-M10?

Yep

Quote
I do not believe it is possible to set bass for the recording on the M10.

There is a "bass cut" option in the menu. 



Offline Napo

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #213 on: February 28, 2010, 01:15:21 PM »


Quote
I do not believe it is possible to set bass for the recording on the M10.

There is a "bass cut" option in the menu.
[/quote]

If you refer to the low cut filter (LFC) it was not 'on' during the recording.
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Offline chrise

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #214 on: February 28, 2010, 02:07:01 PM »
If you refer to the low cut filter (LFC) it was not 'on' during the recording.

Yep - that's what was being asked.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #215 on: February 28, 2010, 09:08:46 PM »
Quote
Phase plot shows interesting higher frequency shifts making the recording sound not so mono at times.
This is a consequence of closely spaced omni mics - they are inevitably mono at low frequencies and more stereo at high frequencies (unless the mics are uniformly omni at all frequencies, which Sony themselves state is not the case). 

Offline johnw

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #216 on: March 01, 2010, 12:28:35 PM »
after finally using this i am very happy with it. it clips with very little distortion on line in, sounds great and is easy to conceal
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Offline Napo

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #217 on: March 04, 2010, 04:51:31 AM »
Quote
Phase plot shows interesting higher frequency shifts making the recording sound not so mono at times.
This is a consequence of closely spaced omni mics - they are inevitably mono at low frequencies and more stereo at high frequencies (unless the mics are uniformly omni at all frequencies, which Sony themselves state is not the case).

As a confirmation of Ozpetek's point, here a recording of some shells playing sound (excerpt of Cage' s Elements). recorded in a concernt hall, 94/24, no bass cut filter, M10 internal mics.
2 minutes clip (95 Mega) DLable for the next seven days
https://www.yousendit.com/download/RmNCZ280NHY4NVd4dnc9PQ
(no post edit)

 
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Offline M-chen

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #218 on: March 10, 2010, 11:56:08 AM »
Hi all,

as one of the first users of M10 here some suggestions from my side.
Because I do not want to carry a seperate audio player with me, I use it as MP3 player also. Doing that, I found some suboptimal “features”.

First, the time shown in the display is not always correct for some songs. It is sometimes much longer (e.g. more than ten minutes for a song which is only 4 minutes in reality). As a result, during play the indicated time is running much faster than real time. I tried to find out, if this behaviour happens only when playing songs encoded in variable bit rate, which was my first thought. But no, the same effect appears for titles encoded in fixed bit rate, no matter which bitrate is used. Not that good.
Second, for a serious listener there is an important demand for playing FLAC files, maybe even OGG. Why is this missing? Much worse and cheaper players do have this capability. O.k., this device is not really a pure audio player, but nevertheless this is much appreciated!
Third, as mentioned by Sony, I tried to play back songs encoded in AAC. No matter which encoder I used, they could not be played back. And I tried several ones. So I really do not know, which encoder one has to use for that, if it is possible at all. Any ideas?
Fourth, because of the strange menu structure it is totally annoying playing back albums. The songs in a folder will be played according to the file date, not according to the song name. To get the sequence you want, you need to modify the file date with software tools, which is a lot of additional work to perform. Stupid engineering here. Sony could have changed that for files on the SSD card at least. Or, better, let the customer decide which one is prefered by adding a feature in the menu.

It’s not a trick, it’s a Sony. Or, in other words, it’s not a bug, it’s a feature  :)
I only hope that a future software update will fix the problems soon.

Beside the complaints above, I am very impressed by the other features, especially the quality of recordings and during playback. The installed headphone amplifier is great, it drives even difficult headphones with ease. And there must be a really good DAC used. Does anyone know which one? I wish I could see the schematic or even the service manual one day...

Best wishes,

Martin
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 01:14:09 PM by M-chen »

Offline tekdroid

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #219 on: March 13, 2010, 02:39:38 AM »
First, the time shown in the display is not always correct for some songs. It is sometimes much longer (e.g. more than ten minutes for a song which is only 4 minutes in reality). As a result, during play the indicated time is running much faster than real time. I tried to find out, if this behaviour happens only when playing songs encoded in variable bit rate, which was my first thought. But no, the same effect appears for titles encoded in fixed bit rate, no matter which bitrate is used. Not that good.

Doesn't sound good at all. I want them to improve playback usability too, because I would *love* to use a unit like this like I use MiniDisc (complete with good remotes). There is no reason why this unit can't do playback better, except economic and segmentation / business reasons.

Second, for a serious listener there is an important demand for playing FLAC files, maybe even OGG. Why is this missing? Much worse and cheaper players do have this capability. O.k., this device is not really a pure audio player, but nevertheless this is much appreciated!

Agreed! FLAC support would be really, really, really logical for a unit like this. I would also like to see Ogg Vorbis. It would cost them $0 in royalties.

Third, as mentioned by Sony, I tried to play back songs encoded in AAC. No matter which encoder I used, they could not be played back. And I tried several ones. So I really do not know, which encoder one has to use for that, if it is possible at all. Any ideas?

I mentioned this in the past but I tried just one file and had the same disappointing experience. The PSP plays the same file fine. I haven't tried again since I don't normally listen to lossy audio and consider the feature a bonus, not a requirement.

Fourth, because of the strange menu structure it is totally annoying playing back albums. The songs in a folder will be played according to the file date, not according to the song name. To get the sequence you want, you need to modify the file date with software tools, which is a lot of additional work to perform. Stupid engineering here. Sony could have changed that for files on the SSD card at least. Or, better, let the customer decide which one is prefered by adding a feature in the menu.
The playback isn't ideal and I think they are just doing what's required to compete with others in the portable recorder segment. I don't think they are really interested in Walkman-type playback features, but I wish they would be.

It’s not a trick, it’s a Sony. Or, in other words, it’s not a bug, it’s a feature  :)
I only hope that a future software update will fix the problems soon.

Beside the complaints above, I am very impressed by the other features, especially the quality of recordings and during playback. The installed headphone amplifier is great, it drives even difficult headphones with ease.
Indeed, it is a really fantastic unit where it counts. I love listening to it with difficult headphones! I am not holding my breath for a software update, though. I could always be surprised, but I doubt that will happen.

And there must be a really good DAC used. Does anyone know which one? I wish I could see the schematic or even the service manual one day...

Best wishes,

Martin

I have no idea on the DAC, but - like you - my ears like it.

Offline tugs

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #220 on: March 13, 2010, 02:49:45 PM »
Can somebody help me?

Im looking to pick this unit up for use in college recording lectures. This will be done in a small to medium-size setting (maybe 30ish desks), potentially with some ambiant laptop tap-tapping from me and surrounding students. I will most likely strive to just use the internal mics, but I don't know how it'll fare. I will most likely need to keep it hidden/inconspicuously face down on desk, so Im not sure of an external mic is a possibility (I will obviously consider this if it's gonna be essential).

Can anyone with experience/learned knowledge on this weigh in with some advice? Perhaps that will be a suggestion of another recorder for this purpose, I dunno...

Thanks in advance!

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #221 on: March 13, 2010, 03:10:31 PM »
It is a rather expensive recorder for what you intend to use it for.  There is a chance of theft, loss, or being dropped.  I'd get something less expensive, and consider a used recorder.  In regard to going unnoticed, you could put the recorder in a fabric sleeve or glove.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #222 on: March 13, 2010, 03:22:36 PM »
The design of the M10 mics makes it unfussy about placement (or at least as unfussy as any such recorder is likely to be) and the internal mics are very sensitive.  There's a limiter to help contain unexpected peaks when the lecturer cracks the one joke of the term.  So it should be as suitable as any other recorder, if the price isn't too big a problem.

Offline tugs

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #223 on: March 13, 2010, 03:26:03 PM »
It is a rather expensive recorder for what you intend to use it for.  There is a chance of theft, loss, or being dropped.  I'd get something less expensive, and consider a used recorder.  In regard to going unnoticed, you could put the recorder in a fabric sleeve or glove.

Thanks for the feedback...

Im aware it's quite expensive for the purpose intended, but this is gonna be a serious dimension of my study (will be making detailed typed notes from and listening to repeatedly), and with interface/quality/compatability/playback speed + pitch control etc considered; I think it's a good buy. It also looks like a smartphone/has stealth mode etc, which helps somewhat if it's visible.

My query is just based on the audio recording quality though. It's gonna need to be able to pick up firmly spoken word volume at about 4 rows back in a classroom (on average, don't wanna sit up front).

The design of the M10 mics makes it unfussy about placement (or at least as unfussy as any such recorder is likely to be) and the internal mics are very sensitive.  There's a limiter to help contain unexpected peaks when the lecturer cracks the one joke of the term.  So it should be as suitable as any other recorder, if the price isn't too big a problem.

Is there not a problem with the auto limiter in that it lowers the sensitivity when there are peaks, but fails to higher it back to the level it was at before? I read that somewhere...

If that's the case, it would most likely be a good idea to pick a suitable recording level and sit in the same place every week or somethin.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 03:37:29 PM by tugs »

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #224 on: March 13, 2010, 04:27:05 PM »
The M10 has an auto mode which fixes the level at a quite low value (3/10 I think) and then limits any peaks above that.  IMHO it's really only worth using if you have no idea about level setting.  However, if you set your level manually, you can turn on the limiter yourself, if you wanted to set the level quite high but still be reasonably protected against peaks.

 

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