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Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)  (Read 187490 times)

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #255 on: March 27, 2010, 01:32:02 PM »
Are you talking about line-in operation?  If so, the best test would be simply running a CD player line-out into it, using a familiar CD (eg Dark Side of the Moon I guess) and then you'd have a source of known quality to compare with.  My view is that the chances of hearing significant differences between almost any portable recorder's line inputs these days are close to zero.

We've done a lot of these comps here, and I don't want to take this thread in an off-topic "best ways to do a comp" direction.  Live sources (that have not been through an a/d) are best.   And while useful for some types of tests, commercial CDs are typically too compressed and processed to be entirely relevant.  The v3 comp scenario is very good. I was reminded that the psp2 has balanced and unbalanced outs.  So a recorder like the 722 could be run on the balanced outs, and compared with a handheld on the unbalanced.

And regarding hearing differences between portable recorder line in..  The differences are typically easily heard, especially on good playback.  What I want is 7xx quality a/d performance (or better).  On challenging material, the gap between the handhelds and the 7xx is still quite significant.  And the sound quality differences between the various handhelds can also be significant.

Offline aaronji

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #256 on: March 27, 2010, 01:53:31 PM »
I'd be curious to see the results of those types of comparisons also.  But expecting a $275 recorder to match the performance of a $1500 pre (V3) or a (nearly) $2000 recorder (SD702) is setting a pretty high bar!  Not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think Sony designed this thing to compete with that type of really high-end gear...

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #257 on: March 27, 2010, 07:45:02 PM »
I'd be curious to see the results of those types of comparisons also.  But expecting a $275 recorder to match the performance of a $1500 pre (V3) or a (nearly) $2000 recorder (SD702) is setting a pretty high bar!  Not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think Sony designed this thing to compete with that type of really high-end gear...

While it may not be as good as a professional device, the difference between retail and pro gear is getting narrower.
What I can say is the mics will make way more difference than the recorder, so don't let the recorder get in the way until you've got the best mics possible.
I can also say that there are not "glitches" in the analog section of the Sony products.  You can turn the gain way up and there will be no buzzes, hums or beeps.  And the self noise is low.
I've been tempted to get a V3 or something and I'm always thinking, I could spend the money instead on a good set of mics.
My next project is to try some 1/2" omni "measurement mics", namely ACO-pacific capsules.  Apparantly these are some of the best sounding mics out there, used by several companies for classical music recording.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline tekdroid

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #258 on: March 27, 2010, 09:07:37 PM »

I don't think my emphasis on how good a recorder actually sounds compared to other products is all that unique.
I don't think it's unique either, but your demands on how it's tested are.

For the past few months I've seen some posts of yours in M10 threads and saying things to the tune of m10 being "an unknown quantity" and how nobody's ever done a proper comparison, essentially to your standards.

If your interest was genuine, am I being unfair in suggesting that you would have bought one? Because the impression I get is you like poo-pooing something you have not heard. It comes across in your tone. If I am wrong on this, please don't take offence. Your position pretty much is that other devices may be better than the PCM-M10 because it hasn't been tested to my standards yet, right?

  Your comment that it is "shaping up to be the performance leader" made me hope someone had posted a comp that actually establishes that. 
Basically, you are suggesting "where's the proof?" here, and you expect it on a silver platter. All so you can make a (presumably) safe purchase? Am I right? Is that the main concern?

"This unit, as predicted, is shaping up to be the performance leader in this price range (and beyond)..."
I stand by that 100%. Plus I wouldn't want to say anything to the contrary to shatter your illusions that I am from Sony.

That's my opinion, yes. After buying several units and hearing them, yes. Do you have evidence or opinions to the contrary? If so, share them if you are that way inclined. Test them to your exacting standards if you want.

But really it's getting tiring hearing from a person who constantly suggests the unit has not been tested properly yet doesn't do anything to have his seemingly genuine concerns about the unit answered. And you know these questions can only really be answered by you, right?

I still can't escape the feeling that if you had genuine interest, you would have bought one by now at no or very little risk to your financial position.

At some point we'll have enough recordings to establish how good the m10 actually is.
At some point we'll all be dead, too. As I said before, what is stopping you from answering every question in your head about the PCM-M10?

There is a big difference between a recorder being very good and actually being "better".  I don't jump on bandwagons unless I have a solid reason.  The low noise floor specs of the m10 are very encouraging, but that alone does not assure great sound.

Your tests will alone will answer all your questions and you know this. Third parties on the web posting their samples won't. You will never be satisfied. YOUR tests will with your own equipment.

Again, it's unclear to me whether you even have a genuine interest in the model (because if you did, I'd think you would have bought one by now, made your own tests and made your own decisions). It's been a good few months that the unit has been selling now. It's a known quantity.

Love,
Your Sony employee


Offline rastasean

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #259 on: March 27, 2010, 09:41:54 PM »
I think people may have a hard time believing something made by a manufacture from anything from microphones to televisions to game consoles to audio recorders would be able to make just ONE of those things very well. I had no interest in the m10 until last week specifically because of this but after reading many positive reviews and very few known negative things, I decided to try it out for myself and get one.

I wholeheartedly agree with Richard on the fact that the mics would make the recording difference (and mic placement) so spending $1500 on a pre-amp like the v3 is not something I see myself doing. On top of that, the v3 has digiout and the specs for the m10 don't seem to have any kind of digi in, indicating a digi pre-amp is a waste of cash money...in MY opinion.

Now for a real question regarding the m10.
The internal 4 gig is a real nice feature of this device. It's not some 512 MB chip or even 2 gigs, its 4 damn gigs! at the highest recording available on this device, you'll be able to get just under two hours. I also like the fact it doesn't take the proprietary memory cards like its older brother, D50. The m10 can take those tiny (and they are smaller than some people's finger nails) SD cards. Who uses what size of what brand?

I don't think we will be able to conclusively conclude that the m10 is perfect for everyone. It seems half the people on this board like mods (specifically of the fr2le) and others (like me) don't really hear the difference. We hear different things that may or may not be there so just listen to the music and the lyrics.
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline gregh

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #260 on: March 28, 2010, 05:12:55 AM »
Just to pop in with my ignorant take - I tend to be with ozpeter (and maybe others) in thinking that 'even the bad stuff is good' nowadays (perhaps that's my age). I have the m10. It is quiet enough and the freq response is fine. No doubt for a great deal more money you can get better, but I have no circumstance where that quality difference will be critical to the success of a project. Of course others are in a different position and I appreciate their concerns.
Regardless, one aspect of the m10 that is truly convenient is the battery life. I noticed someone worryiing about compatibilityof the (USA) power supply. Don't worry, throw it away, the batteries seemingly last forever. This single aspect of battery life (in combination with the memory size) changes the way I am recording - I don't have to worry about starting the recorder in a timely fashion as I wait for the right moment  - I can leave ithe m10 running from the moment I leave home and edit later. It really doesn't matter. One can be recording using an 'always on' strategy. I have found this aspect of the M10 incredibly liberating - as someone who primarily records ambient domestic and urban soundscapes.

Offline Belexes

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #261 on: March 28, 2010, 10:31:45 AM »
Is there a way to shut off the green lights that illuminate when  recording....they go red if you clip? Also, can the red record button be turned off as well? 
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline aaronji

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #262 on: March 28, 2010, 10:55:16 AM »
^^^ I don't have it in front of me, but I think it is Main Menu > Detail Menu > LED > Off.  This does the level/over LEDs, the little orange "Accessing" light, and the record/pause/play buttons.  I think...


Offline Belexes

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #263 on: March 28, 2010, 03:39:01 PM »
Thanks!
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #264 on: March 28, 2010, 06:44:41 PM »
There are a few features of the M10 which remind me more than a little of my wife's little Sony speech recorder.  That device has no "off" switch, and like the M10, it sits in sleep mode indefinitely, ready for use the moment you press any button.  The "off" switch on the Sony is in practice merely the means of preventing it from starting on its own if squashed in the bag or whatever.  I half wonder whether the M10 is an upgrade from their voice recorders (in design/development terms) rather than a downgrade from the D50 etc.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #265 on: March 29, 2010, 01:59:23 PM »

I don't think my emphasis on how good a recorder actually sounds compared to other products is all that unique.
I don't think it's unique either, but your demands on how it's tested are.

For the past few months I've seen some posts of yours in M10 threads and saying things to the tune of m10 being "an unknown quantity" and how nobody's ever done a proper comparison, essentially to your standards.

You seem to want to frame this as obscure testing.  It isn't about "testing". It is about making live music recordings that can be compared with other gear.

If you take the time to go and read past threads about comparing gear, you'll see they are TS standards; not my standards.  We've collectively done a Lot of gear comparisons on this site (I've posted a lot of mine), and we have extensively discussed various methodologies.  At this point it is fairly clear what level of rigor will allow solid conclusions.   Some of the handhelds have been rigorously compared here, the comp files have been posted, and people have voted on what they like best.

There are a lot of newbies who come here looking for advice on what to buy.  To assert that some particular product is a "performance leader", without offering anything to support that position, seems hollow.   What other recorders have you compared it against, and under what circumstances?   Maybe I just missed the post with the link to your recordings.

Quote
If your interest was genuine, am I being unfair in suggesting that you would have bought one?

Buy every new handheld recorder that comes out?   Edirol, Tascam, Marantz, Zoom, Sony, Olympus?   And how many models from those vendors?  I like to record live music with the best results possible, not fanboy obsess over consumer electronics, or specific manufacturers.  Most of us already have gear that works very well.  We have not been loyally shuffling and transferring sony minidiscs, while patiently waiting for them to catch up with the rest of the industry.

Quote
Your position pretty much is that other devices may be better than the PCM-M10 because it hasn't been tested to my standards yet, right?

Until we hear and vote on the comparative recordings, it is just speculation..

Offline yousef

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #266 on: March 29, 2010, 07:13:34 PM »
I'm as excited as anybody about the M10, give or take a digital input, and will very likely purchase one in the coming months but I completely understand Freelunch's reservations.

It seems that a lot of people are expressing the opinion that it is indeed the great white wonder and that the weight of this commentary is in danger of becoming accepted wisdom without ever being put to a proper test. Speaking as someone who has been burned before by this sort of thing, I can completely understand why someone would want objective proof that an item not only sounded good but actually met the stated specs before putting down their money.

Particularly when we're on a messageboard where the same equipment can inspire polar opposite opinions...
music>other stuff>ears
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Offline tekdroid

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #267 on: March 29, 2010, 08:23:17 PM »
You seem to want to frame this as obscure testing.

I'm not framing anything as obscure testing. Any way you want to test it is fine by me.

I am simply stating that at least 5 months have passed since the unit has been selling (correct me if I'm wrong but I think it started selling in early Oct) and your results (that you seemingly want) aren't out there yet, and you are doing nothing to get them, but you seem to love talking about how it essentially hasn't been tested rigorously.

I haven't compared this recorder with others at all. Based on its features and performance (remember, I've bought it), my opinion is exactly as I wrote it. Do you have any performance evidence it is worse than something in its price range? See, if I didn't buy a recorder and never heard it, why would I continually go into threads about that recorder and state it may not be all that? I can compare its features and design to others, but why would I continually state it may not be all that in the audio department?

I have bought the unit, am extremely pleased with it and can state my opinions (as can many others). On the other hand, you like to continually suggest it hasn't been tested rigorously. After so many months on sale, when do you think those results are going to be forthcoming? Who will be handing these to you?

Why don't the most vocal about these results lay down some cash and put their performance concerns to rest? If you are not interested in a recorder, give it a rest. If you are, then how 'bout breaking new ground by testing the unit rigorously?

Again, it's been 5+ months the unit has been selling and you seem to have some anti-Sony agenda with no interest whatsoever in actually doing the tests you are so vocal about, even when there's zero or very little risk to your finances.


Offline Todd R

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #268 on: March 30, 2010, 11:19:18 AM »
I don't have an m10, so I can't do any comps on it.  But I've got a D50 and if I dig around, I'm sure I have comparisons in my files, and I can certainly make some.

I had the V3, 702, and D50 all at the same time.  I might have a comparison of the D50 a/d to the 702.  I'll check, though it is probably unlikely since I generally ran V3 analog in to the 702 and digital in to the D50, so I'd be comparing the V3 a/d to the 702.  Again, I'll have to check, but I may have the D50 a/d compared to the Oade mod R44 a/d, as I now have the R44 and D50.  I'm not positive, but I may have run PSP2 mini-out to D50 and XLR out to the R44.  If I don't already have them, I can easily make them since both my PSP2 and Naiant littlebox have dual analog outputs.

While this doesn't get at a controlled comp for the M10 itself, a month or so ago Ehren and I did a controlled comp of the D50 vs the m10 at a Govt Mule show using the dual outputs of his littlebox.  We haven't gotten together yet to exchange each others files, but that should be a very controlled comp of the D50 to the m10.  I guess using the transitive property, we could at least compare the D50 to the Oade R44 and the m10 to the D50.

Ehren and I in future when we're recording together can easily do another comp of the M10 directly to the Oade R44.  With preamps like the littlebox, Lunatec V2, and PSP2 all having dual analog outputs, I'd imagine it is only a matter of time before some controlled comps of the M10 to other recorders start to surface, though perhaps not exactly the V3>722 comp you're hoping for.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline xof

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #269 on: April 01, 2010, 12:39:49 PM »
I am interested in the M10 for classical music. I am a violinist and will use this mostly for solo and chamber music performances. My experience with previous flash recorders (HR-09 and Zoom H2) is that the internal mic quality is not very good. The H2 sounds muddy and the HR-09 sounds tinny.

If I purchase mics based on the Sennheiser MKE-2 capsules eg. MM-HLSO  give me a better result? at $250 they promise more clarity and quality, but I am concerned because the Equivalent noise level in the Senns is pretty high (27db a weighted). Does anyone have any experience recording acoustic music with this deck and mics? The cello sample on Wingfieldaudio.com of the M10 sounds a little covered or filtered to my ears.

Please advise!




 

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