Topic: soft show, loud applause, not sure what to do

[icebox]

So, I saw a show the other day and didn't get levels set where I want.  I was using an M10, recording in 24 bit, with CA14s and a CA9200 preamp.  The preamp was set far too low to get a good level on the M10 through the line in jack.  I was maxed on the M10 and levels of the show (guitar and voice) peaked at -17, most of the show was around -21.  But applause was overloading and making the limiter go off.  Interesting, the untouched applause sections still sound ok.  The M10's limiter can handle short pops that are over reasonably well.  Had I gotten the levels where I want (peaks about 5 db higher), I suspect I'd have a different problem, because then the applause would have way way over limit, and that would have made for different problems. 

Anyway the problem is that the applause is 15 to 20 db above the music peaks, and I'm not sure what to do in post to get the sound loud enough to hear; playing the raw file though winamp results in silence where the music is.  I noticed that hard limiting the music sections to -21 and then amplifying the music sections 20.9 db causes self noise to become apparant, and limiting the applause much below -10 db makes the applause sections distort, like the mic is being rapidly raised and lowered, an unpleasant fluttery effect.  My thought was to limit those to -10, then normalize the rest as is, because that results in an amplification of about 15 db, which doesn't let the self noise become apparant.  But the borders between the two different zones were very jarring, and so that's not likely the best solution.  Knocking applause down 10 dband then normalizing will lead to about 10 dbs of amplification, which will leave the applause 7 to 10 db above the music, and the music still very soft.  So I'm pretty stumped about how to make this recording listenable.  Can anyone suggest a better course of action for me here?

[yltfan]

It's a bit tedious, but I think using the volume envelope in audacity may be a good option here. Do a sharp drop right when the applause starts (difficult if it starts before the music ends, but you'll find the right balance), and than ease it back up as the applause dies down.

[kubacheck]

It's a bit tedious, but I think using the volume envelope in audacity may be a good option here. Do a sharp drop right when the applause starts (difficult if it starts before the music ends, but you'll find the right balance), and than ease it back up as the applause dies down.

I tried this for the first time on my Robyn Hitchcock recording from last month and I was pretty happy with the results.... it was slow going at first but as I got the hang of how to use the tool, it got much easier and went much quicker..... also, there are a couple of video tutorials on youtube that show the basics of using it....

[Brian Skalinder]

I haven't found volume envelopes work all that well for reducing audience applause.  Partly because IME the loud applause and hooting and hollering starts before the music ends, and partly because the rise and fall of any given applause section is variable, making it hard to achieve a reasonably smooth / even level transition.  Then again, I'm probably doing it wrong.

In mild cases of audience noise louder than music, I've used compression to reasonably good measure.  In severe cases (like yours), I've simply hard limited the audience noise.  This typically allows me to get the audience at least down to the level of the music playing at the time the heavy audience noise kicks in.  Depending on the nature of the audience noise, IME the hard limiting may

• sound just fine (e.g. occasional and fast transients like small groups of people clapping)
• seem somewhat unnatural and a bit 'flat' (loud continuous applause from loads of people)
• distort substantially (e.g. LOUD human voices don't take to severe limiting very well and can distort).

That said, I'd rather have tolerable levels for audience noise plus one ore more of the above, than natural sounding applause and ruckus that blows out my ears every time I listen.

The unpleasant fluttering artifact you describe from limiting sounds like pumping to me -- the limiter kicking on and off across the limited section:  the limiter kicks in and knocks down levels, then releases and allows high levels again, then back and forth very rapidly.  Not pleasant at all.  But you should be able to tame (or outright remove) this effect by specifying a very short attack and a substantially longer release.  The short attack causes the the limiter to kick in very quickly when a signal reaches the dB limit threshold, and the longer release prevents it from, well, releasing. No limit > release > limit > release cycle = no  pumping or fluttering.

FWIW, I just employed pretty severe limiting to recent Del McCoury recordings.  The audience was a good 15-20 dB louder than the music (if not more).  If you give a listen towards the end of tracks, you'll hear some of the applause and noise falling into each of the three general categories I noted above...but you shouldn't hear 'fluttering' (unless I missed it in my final listening check).

[kubacheck]

^^^ I think it depends on certain circumstances, every recording/show is different...... IF the crowd waits until the song is actually over, the envelope tool can be very effective.... if they start in a few seconds early it can make things much tougher, obviously..... at my show, for the most part they waited until the song was complete which made it a lot easier.... not EVERY transition was 100% smooth, because a couple times Robyn would start on the next song while the clapping was still going on, but I think most transitions were done well enough and overall it's much more enjoyable a listen not having the crowd blow out my speakers after each tune.....

[Brian Skalinder]

Definitely depends on the individual recording, kubacheck -- agreed.  I haven't really honed my volume envelope skills.  I tried a few times at getting the right curve, failed miserably, and went with what I know:  compression & limiting.  I imagine with more practice I'd get much better at drawing the volume envelope.  No matter the method to reduce audience noise, they ALL are better than blasting our speakers / ears out from the crowd noise.

[perks]

I've been messing around in Sound Forge with the click and crackle repair tool using the "for manually fixing small selections" preset. It seems to work better when you zoom in on the clapping sections and select the area you are going to repair.

I've tried some of the other options people mentioned but generally was not satisfied with the results. 

[stevetoney]

Fwiw this is the most challenging recording situation I ever encounter and I still haven't come away with what I consider to be an acceptable end product so imho theres no magic beans that can fix this, though the suggestions people have made will help to make a recording less intolerable.

[yltfan]

Yes, the envelope is not ideal--it really is like turning the volume knob at the right time, but every time I've needed to use it, it's worked pretty well. On some of the fades, it's hard to hear. On some, I can hear it, but my non-taping, non-overly critical friends cannot. It does work best when the applause and the music are mostly seperate, but that seems to be the case when it's a quiet show. The audience is usually, very quiet, attentive during the music, then BLAMMO. Perfect time for the envelope. I mostly just eyeball it, curving the applause down until it looks to be about as loud as the music. I'll see if I can get some screenshots from one of my more successful efforts.

[anr]

I'd open up a section of loud applause and determine the level the individual claps can be seen above the main noise of the applause.   Then hard limit to that level.  You will generally find that results in a substantial increase in level of the music without the pumping or "ripple" effect described above.  Then I'd apply a soft knee compressor to the whole file, in small steps. 

Agree about Sony's click and crackle in the "smalls sections" setting.  It really is for small sections and not the whole file.  I use it to remove loud / annoying individual claps during intros or during the song. 

[mr qpl]

I have like 9 different envelopes saved. I use this tool both to compress applause and also boost quiet songs in an otherwise loud set. You can set a top gain of 200% and envelope amplify anywhere above 100 and/or max reduction of 60% and amp down from 100. Hard limiting is a good thing, too, but I find looking at those flat top wav forms a little distressing, for some reason, it does sound good, tho

[page]

I haven't found volume envelopes work all that well for reducing audience applause.

In severe cases (like yours), I've simply hard limited the audience noise.

Both of these. volume envelopes aren't the way to go. Figure out where you want the new peaks to be a limit to that.

[icebox]

thanks for the comments here, guys, all very helpful for ideas.  There are a number of places where applause is continuing when the next song begins, so the envelope isn't likely the best solution as indicated in prior comments. 

I normally have been using Audition, because when I first started I had access to both but found Audtion a lot more user friendly, but since the first comments referred to the envelope feature in Audacity, I tried loading this up in Audacity and noticed that at a hard limit of -20 did not cause the pumping distortion that Audition was introducing
(and I did try setting minimum attack and maximum release in Audition, which made the problem less noticable, but it was still there).  It not that natural sounding, probably its the flat sound that Brian indicated, but one that was far more preferrable in sound.  What I'm getting after normalizing now is some distortion with the guitar, particularly around 100 - 200 hz, that I can't hear in the original, so I think it's an artifact of the amplification, and now I've got to do some EQ to achieve listenability.  What I'm really learning from this is that 20 db changes up or down is just not the sort of thing that works well, even though 15 db changes do seem to work OK with this device. 

[beeco]

This may be plain dumb, but I've had some luck using the click removal function in the highlighted applause sections (in small, sometimes multiple steps), and then applying compression to enveloped areas between songs (one song at a time), then using small steps of compression and amplification over the whole file to get everything leveled off.    Of course it's still not ideal and not every space between songs comes out with a smooth and unnoticeable transition, but I used this method for an Avett Brothers show I recorded in stealth mode and the difference between the original raw recording and the finished product was huge.  It made an almost un-listenable recording into a good recording that I enjoy listening to.  The downside was that it took the better part of a Saturday morning to get the recording to a point that I was happy with. 

[nassau73]

This video may help. It's for Audition, but the basic procedures using envelope and spectral display should be applicable in other software.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfp5ze0XTUo