Topic: Tascam/Teac VR-10 Digital Recorder

[UnknownVT]

Damn, that sounds amazing. Defined and wide sound, zero distortion. Obviously very little stereo separation, but then again it's to be expected with L&R mics positioned that close. Stereo separation is not something I consider precisely "essential" so I can def. live with it. The recorder must have been mounted in an ideal place, although there is enough (in amount and close distance) audience sound to assume it wasn't much above the taper's head I think. Also, Irving Plaza is a standing-only venue so no chance of the taper being seated - he must have been among the audience or back at the sound desk.

Anyway, I simply have SERIOUS problems believing that recording to have been made with only those tiny internals. It sounds just too good for a $30 recorder. Even with ideal location and good moderate PA levels & SPL, I think it's just too good.

Hopefully you do mean unbelievable as in unbelievably good and not about any doubts whether those were the internals on the VR-10.

cd2go actually also recorded the next night -
from his post (reply #13 in that thread)

The PR-10/VR-10 are actually omnis, though it would be nice if they were cards. I picked up the Teac model for the rare times that I stealth thinking I would match it with some small externals, but then I made a few recordings with it and I must say I was impressed with the internals, especially for under $100:

http://www.archive.org/details/gpn2011-03-09.teacvr10.cd2go.flac24

Now I could never say that this could be a substitute for my DPAs, but for the couple times a year when it's time to go under-cover, the ease of getting this into a venue (it's been wanded with no problem), setting up with one button push and no wires to hassle with and resting it on a balcony ledge or sticking it in a hat is what I'll be doing for now. I'm curious as to how the omnis compare to the DR-08 cards. I just don't like the bling/added size/flimsyness of the mickey-mouse ears.

Hopefully cd2go may take part in this thread -
so we can benefit from his experience of this recorder

[LikeASong]

Hopefully you do mean unbelievable as in unbelievably good and not about any doubts whether those were the internals on the VR-10.

Not serious doubts, I believe the taper, but I think there's something we must be missing. Maybe the guy had access to the soundboard zone or he used a stand to make a stack recording, or something along that lines. I'm quite reluctant to believe that a guy standing in the middle of the crowd with *only* that tiny recorder got that recording.

[UnknownVT]

Not serious doubts, I believe the taper, but I think there's something we must be missing. Maybe the guy had access to the soundboard zone or he used a stand to make a stack recording, or something along that lines. I'm quite reluctant to believe that a guy standing in the middle of the crowd with *only* that tiny recorder got that recording.

I can only go by what cd2go posted.
Hopefully he can clarify things.

There are other recording on the LMA using the VR-10 - some also sound pretty darned good (to me)

[F.O.Bean]

I believe him likeasong. Go for it and buy one and test for yourself!

[LikeASong]

Sure, I DO BELIEVE him as well! I myself have done quite impressive recordings with just a Zoom Q3HD internals, and I'm not as livid as many experienced tapers when it comes to discredit internal mics' ability to produce decent recordings. It's just that recording sounds much, much better than the recorder's price tag would lead you to believe in... I will get one just for the sake of it, and will make some direct comparisons between external mics and the VR-10 ones! I'm sure it will beat anything up considering its price!

[dallman]

This is a little off topic, but here is a recording I made while traveling, using the Tascam DR-08 and Church CAFS. Just regular "mic in" jack. I thought the recording was good enough that at the time I didn't want to post how I recorded it, as I figured Tascam DR08>CAFS would discourage people. Thanks to Texas hospitality, I had my rig atop a stand where OFOTD was running a much higher end rig. However if you hunt down his recording the 2 are remarkably similar. I am always amazed at this recording.
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=548206

[LikeASong]

This is a little off topic, but here is a recording I made while traveling, using the Tascam DR-08 and Church CAFS. Just regular "mic in" jack. I thought the recording was good enough that at the time I didn't want to post how I recorded it, as I figured Tascam DR08>CAFS would discourage people. Thanks to Texas hospitality, I had my rig atop a stand where OFOTD was running a much higher end rig. However if you hunt down his recording the 2 are remarkably similar. I am always amazed at this recording.
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=548206

I have done CAFS > Tascam DR-05 extensively during the past months and it's the most stealth rig available, and sounds great. In fact, it's the setup I'm going to compare to the VR-10 when I get it!

[UnknownVT]

Literally from earlier tonight -
Teac VR-10 internals
24bit 48kHz original -
split in Audacity -
AudioConverter to VBR MP3 -
ReplayGain (default 89db) added with MP3gain.

Download 4.28MB

The VR-10 was just laid on a taper's table on my homemade carry-bag (a sock ) on its flip out stand

Manual record level set on first number (hence the ReplayGain) and recorder was left unattended.

The reason why it was unattended was because I do photography at musical events - such as this -

actually taken during the posted song.

[LikeASong]

As expected, the venue, its sound and the location of the recorder are obviously the main factors (as in every taping situation I'd say). This doesn't sound as brilliant as the Irving Plaza recording, but the venue being a bar and the recorder lying loosely on a table don't help much to avoid that "muddy" feeling it has. Anyway, still pretty brilliant for a $30 thing that fits in the smallest pocket

[UnknownVT]

As expected, the venue, its sound and the location of the recorder are obviously the main factors (as in every taping situation I'd say). This doesn't sound as brilliant as the Irving Plaza recording, but the venue being a bar and the recorder lying loosely on a table don't help much to avoid that "muddy" feeling it has.

Thanks, point taken.

If anyone wants to judge potential quality of the VR-10
it should be based on a more experienced and attentive taper -
and not from an inexperienced and casual taper (ie: me)
where there may be the possibility for noob errors.

One should really judge the quality by cd2go's recording  -
as it shows potentially in the right hands and venue conditions etc -
how good the VR-10 even on the internals can be.

Having said that I think the recording was pretty good, "all things considered"
especially since it took virtually zero effort from me.

The taper that was there was "madtaper" so hopefully we'll see/hear his better recording on LMA.
Didn't note his gear - but if it is of any help/relevance his most recent LMA recording
Donna the Buffalo Live at The Shakori Hills GrassRoots Festival of Music & Dance on 2012-10-07
had these:
Source: Schoeps 4VCMC6s > Lunatec V3 > Sony M1
Lineage: PCM R500 > Tascam CDRW900 - direct digital transfer
Taped by: madtaper
Transferred by: madtaper

I do realize gear especially mics may change due to the venue.

[LikeASong]

I didn't mean to sound harsh or something - I stand by my last sentence instead It's a really nice recording specially taking into account that it was made with a $30 recorder and zero effort! These factors are important to me too. I mean, I have never pulled out a super-brilliant recording, but I have never spent more than $200 on any piece of gear either. Taking everything into account (money paid, efforts made, time spent) I am very happy with my results so far.

On a VR-10 -more-related news, I just missed one on eBay; there's another one but it's priced at 50€ plus 25€ shipping, so it's 75€ ($95 approx). Not as nice as $26 haha... Let's see if I can get it on the cheap anywhere.

[UnknownVT]

I didn't mean to sound harsh or something - I stand by my last sentence instead It's a really nice recording specially taking into account that it was made with a $30 recorder and zero effort! These factors are important to me too.

Thank you for your kindness -
please don't worry it was not taken as harshness -
I'm here to learn as much as I can and have to understand when critique is needed.

Anyway hopefully we now can acknowledge that the Teac VR-10 is capable of making almost unbelievably good recording ala cd2go brilliant recordings of Grace Potter.

Not that I am anywhere in that league - but here are a few more samples of casual recording in different and what I would consider perhaps difficult venues.

These are all
Teac VR-10 internals
24bit 48kHz original -
split in Audacity -
AudioConverter to VBR MP3 -
ReplayGain (default 89db) added with MP3gain.

121201 -

a gutted out shop space - the VR-10 was on top of the edge of an equipment cover that was leaning against the right wall about 12 ft from stage front -

Download 7.49MB

this is a big sound and very interesting band called the 4th Ward Afro-Klezmer Orchestra

121206 last night -

I think this jazz room sounds good - the entire performance was improvised - no set tunes.

this is a very nice flugelhorn solo by the guy in the picture - I think the tone is great.

Download 4.54MB

the next clip was the single exception where they went from one tune improvising/segue-waying into an almost anthem tune there, named after a great drummer - one can hear the overlap and change here

Download 10.19MB

The reason why I included this last clip even though some of it may sound a little off musically (to me) - it didn't matter a hoot to me because of the spirit of the thing (I realize it might be a case of "have to be there" - but I think the recording manages to convey that spirit) -
But technically because the beginning is very quiet/low acoustic piano - this ought to show the noise floor of the VR-10 on internal mics - then there are parts where the it goes loud with pretty sharp attacks - so ought to show the dynamics -

I should mention the interjecting phrases the trumpet player was standing right behind the recorder in the mid-back of the room -


I think it sounds pretty good, again - "all things considered", the VR-10 was set on a table front center about 6 feet away from the stage - next on the left of the table in the main stage picture (next to a Tascam DR-07MkII that was also recording......) while I was taking photos.

[UnknownVT]

Here's a SQ test I just thought of - playing a known CD on my home sound system - so at least a known source and reproducible (for me) - it's only budget-Fi but I took care choosing the components and think it sounds pretty good.  I used my CD test track as Sting's the Lazarus Heart from the Nothing Like the Sun.

The track was played at loud'ish volume - high enough to know it was loud - but not so loud to be uncomfortable -

The vr10 was set on a coffee table slightly to the left but pointing toward the middle between the two speakers - I do have a sub-woofer - which is on a separate channel on my amp.

I recorded less than 2 minutes so hopefully it is not viewed as deliberately infringing copyright -
there is 2 secs worth of "silence" at the beginning - but my room is far from really silent.

Download 2.43MB

Teac VR-10 internals
24bit 48kHz original -
split in Audacity -
foobar2000 to VBR MP3 -
ReplayGain (default 89db) added with MP3gain.

[cd2go]

Not serious doubts, I believe the taper, but I think there's something we must be missing. Maybe the guy had access to the soundboard zone or he used a stand to make a stack recording, or something along that lines. I'm quite reluctant to believe that a guy standing in the middle of the crowd with *only* that tiny recorder got that recording.

Hey guys, wow--who would have thought that of all my recordings, this one is getting the most attention, guess I can sell my DPAs now    Anyway, this was definitely recorded with the Teac's internals. As the info file states I placed it on the left balcony ledge which is in line with the left stack. This is a great example of how location trumps all. And luck helps too--I think the PA levels, mix, mic location, etc. all lined up for this one. Even when comparing with the next night in the same spot, this one sounds better to me. In less than ideal conditions (higher dB setting, farther back (these are omnis), more bass), I wouldn't expect the mics to perform quite as well. I'm glad I have it--I usually carry it to every show as a backup in case I don't get in with my full rig, at least I know I can make a listenable recording regardless 

Below is another GPN show with the Teac; I was FOB, deck in my hat, and this one has much more prominent (though not distorted) bass. Impressive that a recorder of this size and cost can handle these dBs:

http://archive.org/details/gpn2010-12-10.teacvr10.cd2go.flac24

I've wondered how much better the Tascam DR-05 omni mics are, as I believe they are larger capsules and can handle 125dB; I have the DR-07 MKII (cardioids) and have been pleased with the results, definitely lacking some bottom end though.

Let me know if there is anything else I can add here...   

-james

[UnknownVT]

Hey guys, wow--who would have thought that of all my recordings, this one is getting the most attention, guess I can sell my DPAs now    Anyway, this was definitely recorded with the Teac's internals.
...
I have the DR-07 MKII (cardioids) and have been pleased with the results, definitely lacking some bottom end though.
...
Let me know if there is anything else I can add here...   

James -

Many thanks for participating in this thread -
as I posted earlier I am very grateful to you for that GPN recording -
as that showed me how good the recorder even on internals can be.

In my opening post I described that my two samples of the VR-10 had/have a fatal flaw - in that they would eventually lock/freeze up if buttons are pressed during recording - so I now studiously avoid touching any buttons during recording - so I cannot use the Rec button to split the recording to a new file without stopping the recording.  This is even on the latest firmware 1.03 build 0040.

The current (replacement) sample came with a much earlier version of the firmware 1.00 build 0031
and that also eventually froze up if buttons were pressed during recording.
(note: it's not normally the very first or just one press - but some later press.)
 
A controlled test I did of using the REC button to split/start a new file,
the 4th press froze the recorder -
I just did it again and this time it was on the 3rd press that froze,
one more time, and it was the 5th press that froze -
so it is not consistent
- when frozen - the only resort was to remove the battery to get the VR-10 to work again. 
If it's of any meaning the last file created is 0 bytes - which actually upsets the VR-10 if accessed.

Have you noticed this kind of behavior?

Now that I've accepted that - the VR-10 works fine - I have done battery life tests where I've left the VR-10 recording from fully charged eneloop AAA's and it recorded about 5hours 24mins straight through fine in 2x 2GB files (2hr 4m each) and the remainder in a third file (1.23GB=1hr 16m).

What I said about using the rec level buttons may not be right -
as I've just tried that to see if I could lock up the VR-10, and it seems fine on Rec level adjustment -
I pressed the |<<  and >>| buttons multiple times, including holding them so that the level was scrolled -
and I could not get the VR-10 to lock.

I'd like to take advantage of your experience of the VR-10 - of the good points,
and if possible avoiding or mitigating its weak points.

Ooops, sorry - Edit to Add -
my other recorder is the Tascam DR-07MkII as well - figured it was the recorder to eventually aim for -
but it came up used at a very advantageous price - so had to make a decision and bought it, even though I only just bought the VR-10 .....

Thanks