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Author Topic: Need feedback on Audix M1255B-S (micro shotguns) ..come on people....someone ?  (Read 12831 times)

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Offline igene

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Hey,
I'm lookin' to get a pair of stealth shotguns and this is where my research has led me.

here are the specs >
http://www.audixusa.com/docs/specs_pdf/M1255B.pdf


I have a pair of Audix cardiod's (M1245) that sound real nice and thought I'd get shotguns (super cardiod) in the same type.
(I use the M1245 for Video, but I get RF interference. The 1255's are RFI immune)

 I'd like to use these outside at festivals or outdoor shows where I can't be that close, but need to stealth.

Damn, 2.1" shotgun mics...who would have thought.
Plus these are High sensitivity for distant micing - sounds perfect for a stand as well.

Anyway, has anyone used these EXACT ones ?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:17:22 PM by igene »
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Offline igene

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Re: Need feedback on Audix M1255B-S (micro shotguns)
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 02:31:42 PM »
come on.... no one ?
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Offline igene

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THIS REALLY LAME....NO ONE HAS HEARD/USED/TRIED THESE...?
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Offline JasonSobel

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not too many people on this forum use Audix mics.  There are a small group of people who do, but it's not one of the more popular mic choices here.  Also, not too many people on this forum use shotgun mics.  So I wouldn't be surprised if no one here has used these specific mics.

Good luck finding info about them.

Offline Walstib62

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FWIW-'m not sure if shotguns would be the go-to for st&*lth, since they are so directional. It would seem to be hard to keep them on axis.

Offline igene

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I have (and build) micro-stealth stands.
Movement is not an issue.
The whole (Black) suspension head is really small.
I've used my cards with it, but too much bonehed talk around me.
Need more directional pickup.
Maybe HC is a better choice.
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Offline JasonSobel

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also, that PDF seems to indicate that the "shotgun" isn't really a shotgun at all,  but rather, a supercardioid.  If that's true, then this is the first instance that I've come across where a mic company makes both a hypercardioid and a supercardioid.  Most "hypercardioids" and "supercardioids" on the market are actually somewhere in between a hyper and a supercardioid.

take a look at the image attached to this post:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=117231.msg1566681#msg1566681
While the image is from Schoeps and specifically points out where the mk41 cap is no the spectrum between hyper and super cardioids, the image as a general tool is quite instructive.
As you can see on that image, a hypercardioid has a more narrow pick-up pattern, but also a bigger rear lobe (compared to a pure supercardioid).

I think it would be worthwhile to get in touch with Audix and get details about the specific differences between the hyper and supercardioid caps that they are selling.  But in any case, I highly doubt it's a real shotgun.

Offline igene

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I doubt that a reputable company like Audix would lie about the mic's pick up pattern.

Perhaps it's not the narrow thin pick up pattern like an AKG or Sennheiser or other popular "traditional" shotguns, just narrower than a hyper-C.
The pickup pattern has been stated as being super cardioid/shotgun.
It's still greater side to side rejection and "narrower" pickup area.

I've tried to find a polarity chart on the 1255-S, but havn't found one yet.

This is my stealth mini-setup >
[ goes from 3' to 7']
small footprint.



Those mics are the same size as the 1255 series.
these are 1245-C

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Offline JasonSobel

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I'm not saying that they are lying, but I this is what is interesting...

from the PDF you linked to in the first post:
Quote
Available with a cardioid, hypercardioid, omni or supercardioid capsule

and

Quote
M1255B-S - Same as above with supercardioid (shotgun) capsule

and

Quote
Supercardioid (M1255B-S): This polar pattern, also known as a shotgun pick up pattern, has a longer
reach and more narrow pattern than the other cardioid patterns. This pattern is a preference at time for
podium applications. It is helpful in pin-pointing hard to reach areas, especially for recording outdoors
and with video.


But, in reality, the supercadioid pattern is NOT a shotgun pattern.  by definition, a shotgun mic needs to  have an interference tube in front of the capsule.  I think it's the marketing people at Audix who are confusing the terms.  and it's too bad, because they are suggesting that two distinct microphone types are the same, which they aren't.  that's why I suggesting getting in touch with Audix and getting more clarification directly from them.

Offline igene

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aaah, I see now.

Yes, makes sense. I will contact them.
Right now leaving for 2 Phish and then 2 Furthur shows.
I'll work on this more next week.
thanks.
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Offline Walstib62

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I doubt that a reputable company like Audix would lie about the mic's pick up pattern.

Perhaps it's not the narrow thin pick up pattern like an AKG or Sennheiser or other popular "traditional" shotguns, just narrower than a hyper-C.
The pickup pattern has been stated as being super cardioid/shotgun.
It's still greater side to side rejection and "narrower" pickup area.

I've tried to find a polarity chart on the 1255-S, but havn't found one yet.

This is my stealth mini-setup >
[ goes from 3' to 7']
small footprint.



Those mics are the same size as the 1255 series.
these are 1245-C
Nice small rig for sure, but when you said stealth earlier, I was thinking in terms of something much more concealed.

Offline igene

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I actually have a smaller setup.
That is my "bigger" small setup.

I had the other shot handy, I had to shoot this one this morning.

small rig >



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Offline Gutbucket

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But, in reality, the supercadioid pattern is NOT a shotgun pattern.  by definition, a shotgun mic needs to  have an interference tube in front of the capsule.  I think it's the marketing people at Audix who are confusing the terms.  and it's too bad, because they are suggesting that two distinct microphone types are the same, which they aren't.  that's why I suggesting getting in touch with Audix and getting more clarification directly from them.

Jason nailed it.  The terms are sometimes used interchangably, but that confuses things. Hypercardioid describes a shape of pickup pattern closer to the figure-8 side of the continuum from figure-8 to omni (typically described as: figure-8, hypercardioid, supercardioid, cardioid, subcardioid, omni).  All those patterns can be described mathmatically as a simple mixture of omni an figure-8 components in different ratios.  The coloquial term 'shotgun mic' really describes the apperance of the mic as a way of building a highly directional mic than a specific pickup 'pattern'.  Although people will know what you mean if you refer to a shotgun pattern, that doesn't fit along that mathmatical continuum.  It's sort of like 'boundary mounted omnis'- not a pattern per say, but a technique that has the effect of changing a standard capsule's directionality.

'Shotgun' microphones are often built around supercardioid capsules, but they don't have to be.  More importantly, they use a long interference tube in front of the capsule to increase the directionality.  The interference tube has slots along it's length arranged so that sounds arriving off-axis through the slots are phase delayed and self-cancel somewhat, where sounds arriving on-axis do not.  As I understand it, the longer the interference tube, the more consitant the increased directional pattern is at lower frequencies.  The typical apperance of the long tube is where the term 'shotgun' comes from.  That distinction is somewhat blurred now that there are some highly directional mics that use complex (and expensive) electronic means to increase directionality, do so more consitantly across the spectrum, and have a somewhat better behaved off-axis response, but they still use an intereference tube even if they are generally shorter than traditional 'guns'.  The interference tube cancelation technique doesn't lend itself to smooth off-axis response and that's why it's difficult to make really good sounding guns for recording music.
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Offline sunjan

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THIS REALLY LAME....NO ONE HAS HEARD/USED/TRIED THESE...?

I'd ask the mods to move this topic to the appropriate subforum (Microphones) before calling fellow TS'ers lame. Just my $.02...
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Offline Gutbucket

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Offline mterry

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If you need a contact @ audix let me know. Ill get you in touch with cliff castle, he is the go-to guy there.
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Offline igene

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Yes, I'd like to talk to someone at AUDIX.
thanks.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 09:05:43 PM by igene »
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Offline igene

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THIS REALLY LAME....NO ONE HAS HEARD/USED/TRIED THESE...?

I'd ask the mods to move this topic to the appropriate subforum (Microphones) before calling fellow TS'ers lame. Just my $.02...

Actually... The situation is Lame, not the people.
Just to be clear !
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Offline DSatz

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"Shotgun" isn't a directional pattern; it's a way of constructing a microphone by placing an interference tube in front of the capsule for added directionality at high(er) frequencies. The interference tube only has an effect above a transition frequency that's inversely proportional to its length--or to put it another way, the tube has an effect only on sound wavelengths that are shorter than the tube itself is. Below that transition frequency, the sound waves simply flow around the tube, and the microphone is just an ordinary directional microphone.

Shotgun microphones are useful for increasing the intelligibility of speech pickup at moderate distances, since that depends greatly on the articulation of consonants (critical frequencies ca. 2 - 4 kHz). You can cover that frequency region with a shotgun mike of reasonable length, but to cover the frequency range of most music, the tube would need to be on the order of 10 to 20 feet long--which I don't think fits the stealth profile exactly.

The interference tube isn't 100% acoustically opaque. It creates something like a Moiré lens effect--above the transition frequency the microphone's sensitivity can vary greatly by as much as 10 dB in response to small changes in angle or frequency. The result isn't a smooth, narrow pattern; it's a choppy pattern with enormous peaks and dips in it. This inevitably means that the frequency response at any given angle off-axis will have similar peaks and dips. Most manufacturers don't show this in any detail in their spec sheets, but the longer the tube, the more it's so.

This makes the quality of reverberant sound pickup at high frequencies a real concern--only the very best multi-thousand-dollar shotguns have decent sound quality off axis, and those tend to be about 10 to 12 inches in length rather than the longer type. The longer ones cover more of the midrange of the human voice, but they mess up the off-axis response even worse. Plus the longer the tube, the farther the actual capsule is from the sound source. Professionals don't use shotgun microphones from across a room, so that difference in actual miking distance matters, and long shotguns are used only when there's no other choice.

Again, at the distances and in the situations where professional film and video sound recordists use them, they can be OK for speech and effects pickup, but the physics just aren't in their favor for wide-range music pickup at typical recording distances in a normally reverberant space.

Stereo just adds a whole other layer of why people should learn what shotguns actually are and how they actually work. The usual coincident or closely-spaced stereo miking arrangements are all based on the assumption that the microphones have essentially the same directional pattern across the audio frequency range--which is exactly what shotgun microphones don't and can't have (without extra capsules and fancy DSP for a few extra thou). M/S recording allows the M microphone to be any kind that you like, and stereo recordings (even of music) are sometimes made with a shotgun generating the M signal. But it still has to be a good microphone in a good position--one that could give you a musically satisfying mono recording if it were placed by itself in the place where you plan to put it.

Executive summary: If you're too far away from the sound sources for a good recording, then don't imagine that using a pair of shotgun mikes can make up for that. They more likely will just make things worse.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 08:45:29 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Gutbucket

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Thanks for the clarifying input.
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Offline igene

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Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.
Of course they don't sound like a cardioid recording, missing a lot of room reflection and side ambient sound,
but not bad.

[for instance Nak 700, sennheiser ME66, neumann KMR81IMT and especially the SCHOEPS CMIT 5U]

These are longer type mics than the one I'm discussing, that allow for the necessary length to achieve the the side
(and some rear) rejection.

I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?
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Offline Walstib62

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Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.
Of course they don't sound like a cardioid recording, missing a lot of room reflection and side ambient sound,
but not bad.

[for instance Nak 700, sennheiser ME66, neumann KMR81IMT and especially the SCHOEPS CMIT 5U]

These are longer type mics than the one I'm discussing, that allow for the necessary length to achieve the the side
(and some rear) rejection.

I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?
I don't know for sure, but it is possible that Audix has taken some license in the term "shotgun". The actual pickup pattern may be very narrow, and more akin to a Hyper card. If you try it, I'd like to hear what it sound like. It's possible that a 4 channel recording with this mic and a pair of cards or even omni's would sound pretty good(?)

Offline igene

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Actually, that's what I was hoping to eventually try if I get these.
A pair of large diaphram mics and these little shotguns...
2 separate recordings and matrix them at home.
Each mic type providing what the other is lacking (mixed together).
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Offline Gutbucket

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Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.
Of course they don't sound like a cardioid recording, missing a lot of room reflection and side ambient sound,
but not bad.

Maybe they were really recorded with hypers, that people incorrectly called 'shotguns'  ;)


Quote
..especially the SCHOEPS CMIT 5U..


..especially $$$$


Quote
These are longer type mics than the one I'm discussing, that allow for the necessary length to achieve the the side
(and some rear) rejection.

I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?

Did you read any of the recent posts describing what shotguns are and how interference tubes work?


Actually, that's what I was hoping to eventually try if I get these.
A pair of large diaphram mics and these little shotguns hypers...
2 separate recordings and matrix them at home.
Each mic type providing what the other is lacking (mixed together).

FTFY  ;)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

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igene, you asked:

> I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?

It doesn't. IT CAN'T. End of story. Audix doesn't use an interference tube [edited later to add: of sufficient length to matter], and their marketing material misuses the term "shotgun." This isn't some wonder of science for which an explanation should be sought; [edited later to say:] it's a severe marketing exaggeration, possibly based on not understanding how shotgun microphones actually work.


> Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.

Good-sounding recordings can be made with shotgun microphones just as they can be made with almost any equipment that basically works at all, if the deficiencies of the recording method tend to compensate for deficiencies in the original sound. You probably don't know what the original sound was like, or whether the recordings that you like reproduce the original sound accurately--which is not likely for the reasons stated above, as well as others that I didn't go into (particularly the very "rolled off" high-frequency response that is typical of shotgun microphones in a diffuse sound field).

More likely, the microphones changed the original sound picture into something quite different from what it was originally, and you happen to like the outcome. The skill of the people who made the recordings is also a big factor, since if you work with a certain type of microphone long enough and listen carefully enough to what you are doing, you can make the best of anything you have.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 10:52:03 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline igene

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Although no one has actually used or listened to the mics,
the input on shotgun style mics is really helpful.
I learned some things I didn't know, and some that I had forgot.

Someone promised to connect me to an Audix guy ?

After all the input, I'm thinking that the 1255-HC is probably a better choice for a truer reproduction of a wider range of frequencies.
It's just a slightly narrowed pickup that is pretty close to the real thing (close enough) without being too "roomy",
(with higher sensitivity and RF immunity).

I have AKG SE393's, and I love the way they sound.




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Offline igene

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sent an email to audix
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Offline igene

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Results of the emails >




From: i.Gene [mailto:igene@frontiernet.net]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:22 PM
To: Cliff Castle
Subject: Audix m1255-S vs. m1255-HC

 
Hi,

I've been trying to get info on these mics, but it's hard to find.
I've read the .pdf on the series, but it's not specific enough
I'd like to know what you mean by supercardiod/shotgun when describing the m1255-S's pickup pattern ?
From my understanding, achieving this pattern involves manipulation of an omni and a figure 8.
That's a very small capsule (It's not even as big as the m1280/90)

Do you have actual lobe charts for both these mics ?

Is the sound captured same/similar/colored/different compared to the Cardioid or even Hypercardioid ?

(tested at various distances and db variations...)


any other information you can provide would be appreciated

(like sound clips of the different mics in same environments)


thanks for your anticipated help,

Gene Dulyn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Gene,


The supercardioid pattern is the technical term for “shotgun” mic.    Another term for this type of polar pattern is called “line cardioid.” 

Basically, the capsule tube is elongated which effects the side lobe of the pickup pattern making it super directional. 

The pattern will be the same on the M1250 or M1255 as it is on the M1280. 

There are NO electronics involved with the mics as far as achieving the pick up patterns.   This is done at the capsule level.   

The attached photo is the M1255B  with the shotgun capsule.    As you can see , it adds quite a bit of length to the mic. 

 

What is your applications for these mics – I may be able to give you some more info based on experience.



Best regards,

Cliff Castle

Audix Corporation
PO Box 4010
9400 SW Barber Street


Wilsonville, OR  97070
503-682-6933    ph
503-682-7114    fx
800-966-8261    sales



From: i.Gene [mailto:igene@frontiernet.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 10:41 PM
To: Cliff Castle
Subject: Re: Audix m1255-S vs. m1255-HC

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

Thanks for that explanation.  I was under the impression that the 1255-S was a small mic like the hyper, card., omni etc type.

Now that I see the picture I see that it actually looks like the larger shotgun pattern mics.

Well, primarily I need the 1255 series RFI immunity as I use them for video work and often get cellphone x-mit noises on  my recordings.

(I currently have an m1245-C stereo pair)

I'd also like to narrow the pickup area, so there is a more pronounced stereo effect when I mix it with the soundboard recording.

I hang my mics overhead from a balcony on a boom about 10' from the stage 15' up.

Also, when I go record shows from a greater distance (20' - 100') the higher output sounds like a great plus.

I like the way my micros sound, so I'm willing to get another set just reading specs.

 

Oh, and the Shotgun size is too large. I'm trying to be unseen overhead.

I think the hypercardiod are the ones I'm looking for.

m1255-HC

Do you think it is the best choice for my needs ?


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Hi Gene,

 
It sounds like you are on the right track.   Both the 1250 and 55 have RF protection.   
The 1255 sounds like the way to go since you get a lot more sensitivity without extra noise.   
The HC will definitely give you a tighter sound with less room noise.   
The closer you can get them to the sound souce , the better the results.   

Please let me know how they work out !   

Best regards,
Cliff Castle

Audix Corporation
PO Box 40109400 SW Barber Street

Wilsonville, OR  97070

 503-682-6933    ph
503-682-7114    fx
800-966-8261    sales

http://www.audixusa.com

http://www.myspace.com/audixmicrophones

 


 

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Offline DSatz

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> The supercardioid pattern is the technical term for “shotgun” mic.

That is simply incorrect. Anyone who would say that doesn't know what he's talking about, even if he is a nice, intelligent person who works for a company that sells pretty good microphones.

The shotgun principle CAN'T be shrunken down or miniaturized, since the entire effect of the interference tube depends on the wavelengths of the sounds that are being picked up. A 6" interference tube is too short to have any audible effect on low or midrange frequencies. It can only begin to narrow the microphone's pattern at ~2 - 3 - 4 kHz and above. That's too high to have any useful effect at typical recording distances for music.

That doesn't stop people from making and selling these microphones, though--AKG has had one in their catalog for a very long time (C 747--see attached photo). It's actually a pretty nice little microphone, but it's not a shotgun microphone despite its shape.

Abraham Lincoln is said to have asked, "How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?" The answer is four--because calling its tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Same thing here.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 10:49:16 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline igene

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"AKG has had one in their catalog for a very long time (C 747--see attached photo). It's actually a pretty nice little microphone, but it's not a shotgun microphone despite its shape."

I always thought the 747 was a hypercardioid, but I get what you mean.

The HC 1255 looks to be what I need.
I have a church micros cable too.
Now I can have another pair of caps for it.

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Offline John Willett

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> The supercardioid pattern is the technical term for “shotgun” mic.

That is simply incorrect. Anyone who would say that doesn't know what he's talking about, even if he is a nice, intelligent person who works for a company that sells pretty good microphones.

The shotgun principle CAN'T be shrunken down or miniaturized, since the entire effect of the interference tube depends on the wavelengths of the sounds that are being picked up. A 6" interference tube is too short to have any audible effect on low or midrange frequencies. It can only begin to narrow the microphone's pattern at ~2 - 3 - 4 kHz and above. That's too high to have any useful effect at typical recording distances for music.

That doesn't stop people from making and selling these microphones, though--AKG has had one in their catalog for a very long time (C 747--see attached photo). It's actually a pretty nice little microphone, but it's not a shotgun microphone despite its shape.

Abraham Lincoln is said to have asked, "How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?" The answer is four--because calling its tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Same thing here.

--best regards

I agree with all this - of course - but just one thing.

If the definition of a "shotgun" mic. is a microphone with an interference tube on the front (which is what I would say the definition is), then the AKG and other similar microphones *are* shotgun mics.

HOWEVER

As DSatz says - the interference tube is so short as to give no meaningful extra directivity at the frequencies that you really need and the microphone directivity will therefore be the directivity of the capsule itself without the interference tube.  This normal capsule directivity is normally a hyper-cardioid or super-cardioid (though I know of one gun microphone that used an omni as the capsule).
 
So, in this instance, it would be better just to use a hyper-cardioid mic. as it will be smaller than these miniature "gun" microphones.



This is the polar-pattern of a small "gun" microphone.

You will see that at low frequencies it is a super-cardioid - at around 2-4 kHz I would say that is is worse than a super-cardioid and it only gets slightly more directional at the highest frequencies.



Offline igene

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just to play devil's advocate...

Wouldn't that "shotgun" pattern in the smaller size be good for concert recording.
If the higher freq. are getting more side and rear rejection (the only freq.s that can benefit from the short length) 
then you are getting clearer vocals on the recording, while at the other freq.s it acts more like a cardioid - which captures the rest of the freq's quite well.

"It can only begin to narrow the microphone's pattern at ~2 - 3 - 4 kHz and above"

I believe  2K is vocal range, and usually mics have difficulty picking out the vocals at greater distances.
(not all mics).

I just sayin'
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Offline John Willett

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just to play devil's advocate...

Wouldn't that "shotgun" pattern in the smaller size be good for concert recording.
If the higher freq. are getting more side and rear rejection (the only freq.s that can benefit from the short length) 
then you are getting clearer vocals on the recording, while at the other freq.s it acts more like a cardioid - which captures the rest of the freq's quite well.

"It can only begin to narrow the microphone's pattern at ~2 - 3 - 4 kHz and above"

I believe  2K is vocal range, and usually mics have difficulty picking out the vocals at greater distances.
(not all mics).

I just sayin'

If you look at the polar-pattern I posted  you will see that at many angles it actually gets *worse* and rear pick-up is more at some frequencoes and that nide dead angle of 120-degrees actually starts picking up.

It only gets more directional at very high frequencies and you pay for it with comb-filtering effect and worst pick-up at other angles.

And the pattern I posted is of quite a nice little "gun" mic. and not a cheapie.

Offline igene

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Ok, let's say the rear pickup is not an issue,
(use a rear baffle) what about the forward pattern ?
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Offline Gutbucket

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The response off-axis (to the sides and the rear) is always an issue for any practical use, and is a big contributor to the difference in the subjective sound of various mics which otherwise have an identical or very similar on-axis response.  A smooth respose off axis is always better.
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Offline igene

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Fair enough.
a Better tool is always Better...!



like I said - Devil's advocate....I'm buying the hyper's.   (m1255HC)
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