Topic: No flash concert photos

[dgale]

I have a Canon Digital Rebel EOS and am hoping some folks out there can give me some advice on the proper settings to have concert photos come out with no flash.  Most shows are in clubs, small theatres and similar 700-1200 capacity venues.  When I turn the flash off, the shutter speed slows down so much that I can't avoid blury shots...it's been a long time since I used a SLR and am not sure what settings I change to be able to have an adequately fast shutter speed yet still not need the flash.  Any advice would be appreciated.

[Sanjay]

I would like to know this too, I however am using a Canon S500 which is not nearly as full of features.

[Startstop]

Wide apeture, smallest f-stop available on your cam. Your digital rebel should take great pictures with no flash in low light. Since you are not using film just keep messing with the apeture/f-stops till you find a setting that works in clubs. Good luck!!

[hexyjones]

I dont know any particular settings or numbers - but speed up the shutter...

The blurries are caused by the autofocus leaving the apature open too long...It wants to see a certain amount of light hit the CCD.

So you might also need to disable the auto-focus...

I overcome this by taking A LOT of pictures - usually you can get a handful of decent ones...use a tripod or mono-pod.

Even a few a the blurry ones can be kind of cool...

And I'll mention this just for fun - I take a round of flash pix and them convert them to greyscale (B/W) They look so much better and more interesting - 'specially of musicians...

Pretty sure no flash in this group...

http://www.rovingsign.com/index.php?topic=66.0

[dmonterisi]

what lens are you using?  you need a lens with a large aperture (small f number).  the canon 50mm/f1.8 is a great starter lens in this area (about $60-70).  shoot at f2 and shutter speed at 1/90 or 1/125 with ISO at ISO800.  you'll get good results with these settings. 

you really need to use manual mode with the rebel because the metering system will be fooled by the stage lighting.  in any of the auto modes, it will try to set too long of an exposure for hand holding and you will over expose the highlights because the camera is averaging the black background and such.  also, shoot in RAW so you have some latitude to work with the exposure level in post.

good luck!

[-Q-]

i have a rebel and the way i shoot is in Av mode. open your aperture all the way and the camera picks the shutter speed. you need to have good lens
here's a shot from blue floyd i took friday night

[dmonterisi]

nice shot!  if you are going to use Av mode, you should consider setting exposure compensation to -1/2 or -2/3 stop.  the highlights on the guitar body and the guy's hand, as well as the entire drummer, are blown out to a total white because they are a bit over-exposed.

[dgale]

what lens are you using?  you need a lens with a large aperture (small f number).  the canon 50mm/f1.8 is a great starter lens in this area (about $60-70).  shoot at f2 and shutter speed at 1/90 or 1/125 with ISO at ISO800.  you'll get good results with these settings. 

I am using the "stock" lens that came with it when I bought it - it says "EFS 18-55mm".  Should I use something else?  I went to Canon's website when I first got it to look at other lens options but was rather confused by all the options.  I'd also be interested in knowing suggested lens options from shooting group shots from the Sbd, as well as any suggestions on how settings/technique might differ from back there.

Thanks for all your help!

[dmonterisi]

here are a few threads you may want to check out.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=33303.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=34378.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=31570.0

fyi, i don't know your level of understanding in the camera world, but it sounds like you are somewhat new to slr photography.  my apologies if this is too elementary for you, but i figure this primer would help.  first, in those threads, prime lenses are lenses that are fixed focal length-they do not zoom.  zoom lenses obviously zoom. 

now, each picture is an exposure, which refers to the recording of light by a medium, in your case, the digital sensor.  there are 3 factors that come into play in determining the exposure: aperture, shutter speed and ISO. 

Aperture - the aperture is the opening inside the lens that allows light to pass through to the shutter.  this is referenced by an f-number.  for example, a lens rated at f4, has a maximum aperture of f4.  the numbers are the denominator in an equation so a smaller f-stop actually allows MORE light to pass through.  to make it more confusing, each major f-stop actually allows 1/2 the amount of light to pass through as the numbers get higher.  the major f-stops are 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, and 32.  so an f-stop of 2 allows in twice as much light as f2.8.  your kit lens is a variable aperture lens so as you zoom it, the maximum aperture shrinks from f3.5 to f5.6.  at f5.6, it is virtually impossible to get a good shot in concert conditions.

shutter speed - refers to the amount of time the shutter stays open.  the longer it stays open, the more light reaches the sensor, but also increases the chances for blur (it's hard to handhold and keep it steady at slow shutter speeds).  the rule of thumb is that you should be able to handhold up to 1/focal length of your lens.  so if you have a 50mm lens, you should be able to handhold at 1/60, 1/90, 1/125, 1/250 of a second,etc.  once again, as the shutter speed gets halved, twice the amount of light is let in.  for example, going from a shutter speed of 1/60 of a second to 1/125 of a second will reduce the amount of light reaching the sensor by 1/2 because the shutter is open for half as long.

ISO - measures the sensitivity of your sensor to light.  your rebel has 5 ISO settings: 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1600.  each step up in ISO makes the sensor twice as sensitive to light.  so if you were to jump from ISO100 to ISO200, you would need to either make the shutter speed 1 stop faster (eg 1/60 to 1/125) or make the aperture one stop smaller (f2.8 to f4) in order for the exposure to be qualitatively the same.  the disadvantage of higher ISO is that you will see some "noise" in the image - basically like littel bits of television snow. 

so there are all tradeoffs to the settings.  I use 2 primes and 1 zoom for concert shooting: a 50mm/f1.4, a 135mm/f2 and a 24-70/f2.8.  among these lenses, the 50mm has the largest max aperture of f1.4. 

now comparing these to your 18-55f/3.5-5.6, these lenses have a much larger max aperture than the kit lens.  to use the kit lens at 18mm, your aperture is 3.5, the 1.4 that i have allows more than 4x as much light pass through to the sensor, which is obviously very useful in concert shooting. 

the 50mmf/1.8 would be a worthy lens for you to pick up for shooting concerts at around $60 (camera lenses get ridiculously expensive, the 50/1.8 is a great deal).  experiment with shooting in manual mode and learning how each setting affects the resulting image. 

you may also pick up a book called Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson.  It's the best book on explaining the fundamental concepts at work and he uses images that he shot to demonstrate his point.  it is not related to concert shooting at all, but will help you become familiar with the different functions and features of your camera.  good luck

-damon

[C.Clark]

here are a few threads you may want to check out.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=33303.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=34378.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=31570.0

fyi, i don't know your level of understanding in the camera world, but it sounds like you are somewhat new to slr photography. my apologies if this is too elementary for you, but i figure this primer would help. first, in those threads, prime lenses are lenses that are fixed focal length-they do not zoom. zoom lenses obviously zoom.

now, each picture is an exposure, which refers to the recording of light by a medium, in your case, the digital sensor. there are 3 factors that come into play in determining the exposure: aperture, shutter speed and ISO.

Aperture - the aperture is the opening inside the lens that allows light to pass through to the shutter. this is referenced by an f-number. for example, a lens rated at f4, has a maximum aperture of f4. the numbers are the denominator in an equation so a smaller f-stop actually allows MORE light to pass through. to make it more confusing, each major f-stop actually allows 1/2 the amount of light to pass through as the numbers get higher. the major f-stops are 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, and 32. so an f-stop of 2 allows in twice as much light as f2.8. your kit lens is a variable aperture lens so as you zoom it, the maximum aperture shrinks from f3.5 to f5.6. at f5.6, it is virtually impossible to get a good shot in concert conditions.

shutter speed - refers to the amount of time the shutter stays open. the longer it stays open, the more light reaches the sensor, but also increases the chances for blur (it's hard to handhold and keep it steady at slow shutter speeds). the rule of thumb is that you should be able to handhold up to 1/focal length of your lens. so if you have a 50mm lens, you should be able to handhold at 1/60, 1/90, 1/125, 1/250 of a second,etc. once again, as the shutter speed gets halved, twice the amount of light is let in. for example, going from a shutter speed of 1/60 of a second to 1/125 of a second will reduce the amount of light reaching the sensor by 1/2 because the shutter is open for half as long.

ISO - measures the sensitivity of your sensor to light. your rebel has 5 ISO settings: 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1600. each step up in ISO makes the sensor twice as sensitive to light. so if you were to jump from ISO100 to ISO200, you would need to either make the shutter speed 1 stop faster (eg 1/60 to 1/125) or make the aperture one stop smaller (f2.8 to f4) in order for the exposure to be qualitatively the same. the disadvantage of higher ISO is that you will see some "noise" in the image - basically like littel bits of television snow.

so there are all tradeoffs to the settings. I use 2 primes and 1 zoom for concert shooting: a 50mm/f1.4, a 135mm/f2 and a 24-70/f2.8. among these lenses, the 50mm has the largest max aperture of f1.4.

now comparing these to your 18-55f/3.5-5.6, these lenses have a much larger max aperture than the kit lens. to use the kit lens at 18mm, your aperture is 3.5, the 1.4 that i have allows more than 4x as much light pass through to the sensor, which is obviously very useful in concert shooting.

the 50mmf/1.8 would be a worthy lens for you to pick up for shooting concerts at around $60 (camera lenses get ridiculously expensive, the 50/1.8 is a great deal). experiment with shooting in manual mode and learning how each setting affects the resulting image.

you may also pick up a book called Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson. It's the best book on explaining the fundamental concepts at work and he uses images that he shot to demonstrate his point. it is not related to concert shooting at all, but will help you become familiar with the different functions and features of your camera. good luck

-damon

great post damon, +T, im an amatuer in the photo world as well with a quasi-slr in the fuji s5100.  a great
camera for only 350 and allows fully manual settings and im getting used to having to play around with
settings with limited knowledge in photography.  that post helped me understand aperture a little better.

[Todd R]

Thanks for the info, Damon!

I picked up the f1.8/50 and only got a chance to use it once so far at shows.  Also got a 100mm/3.5, which is also a macro, but it works fairly nicely as a prime for concert photos as well.  Before this I had (still have) 2 zooms, 18-50 and 55-200, but these are both f4-5.5, so they are a bit slow.

I thought the 1.8/50 would be so much better for concert photos, but it didn't turn out to be on my first outing.  Problem I think was I had been shooting in Av mode (and compensating -2/3 stop).  I'm thinking that the greater amount of "black" space in the frame of the 50mm compared to zooming in on the performer was causing the automatic metering to push for slower shutter speeds.  I need to try more manual shooting.  (I wanted to try at the show, but just couldn't figure out how to set the shutter speed in manual mode -- these digi-SLRs are really not intuitive, not like figuring out shutter speed on my old analog was ever an issue!).

Damon - Q to you if you can remember the rebel:  Is there a way of changing the exposure metering on the Rebel to something more center weighted and not average?  Also, when you had the rebel, what White Balance settings did you use for concert shots?  Did you just use AWB or did you use one of the shade settings or whatnot?

[dmonterisi]

Thanks for the info, Damon!

I picked up the f1.8/50 and only got a chance to use it once so far at shows.  Also got a 100mm/3.5, which is also a macro, but it works fairly nicely as a prime for concert photos as well.  Before this I had (still have) 2 zooms, 18-50 and 55-200, but these are both f4-5.5, so they are a bit slow.

I thought the 1.8/50 would be so much better for concert photos, but it didn't turn out to be on my first outing.  Problem I think was I had been shooting in Av mode (and compensating -2/3 stop).  I'm thinking that the greater amount of "black" space in the frame of the 50mm compared to zooming in on the performer was causing the automatic metering to push for slower shutter speeds.  I need to try more manual shooting.  (I wanted to try at the show, but just couldn't figure out how to set the shutter speed in manual mode -- these digi-SLRs are really not intuitive, not like figuring out shutter speed on my old analog was ever an issue!).

Damon - Q to you if you can remember the rebel:  Is there a way of changing the exposure metering on the Rebel to something more center weighted and not average?  Also, when you had the rebel, what White Balance settings did you use for concert shots?  Did you just use AWB or did you use one of the shade settings or whatnot?

todd- I think you're exactly right about the metering mode fooling the camera.  I believe the rebel is limited to only using center-weighted in full manual mode.  I would suggest working in manual mode regardless.  the best way to figure out if you're exposing properly is to check the image histogram after a few shots and see what's working.  what i would do is set the 50mm to an aperture of f2 and set your ISO to 800.  with those settings, you should be able to get good shots at 1/60, 1/90 or 1/125 depending on the stage lighting.  if you are getting over-exposed highlights, knock the ISO down to 400 (you'll get much less noise as well).  with the 50/1.8, you can get good shots at either f1.8 or f2, ISO400-800 and 1/90 on the shutter speed.  this is kind of where i start when i'm using the 50/1.4.  I try not to go all the way down to 1.4 because the lens gets a little soft wide-open and the depth of field is so shallow.

as far as white balance goes, i always shot in AWB and adjusted in post because I shoot in RAW.  it takes a bit more time and effort to process RAW images, but you get much greater control over the image.  It allows you up to 2 stops of exposure compensation in either direction and allows precise adjustment of the white balance.  RAW is basically the unprocessed camera data before the camera converts to jpg.  it's more effort but in the long-run is very much worth it.

if you shoot jpg though, i can't remember exactly how the rebel works in white balance area.  I have found the lighting seems the most balanced at around 2500-3000 Kelvin.  i'm not sure if any of the presets is that low.  most will be in the 4300-5800 range.  I'll see if i can find any more information on that for you.  the AWB sensor gets completely fooled by concert lighting.  it makes the images way too warm (more reds). 

another option is there is a russian firmware hack for the rebel that will unlock many of the features that canon didn't want to push down to the rebel.  i believe custom WB is one of them.  MattD did the firmware hack on his rebel, maybe he'll chime in.

[MattD]

I am almost positive that custom WB was delivered on the DRebel, but I've had mine hacked with the "Wasia" firmware since about a month after I bought it so I really don't recall. There's a new firmware out now called the "UnDutchables" that adds features beyond the Wasia hack. I haven't used it yet myself, but it is said to implement RAW in the program modes (sports, landscape, etc).

Aside:
One thing that I'd like to know is how to use custom WB while shooting RAW. I want to shoot RAW and import the custom WB during the RAW conversion phase as a starting point. Often, it should be good enough to use. I might try photos tonight at Rusted Root - not sure yet.

[dmonterisi]

Aside:
One thing that I'd like to know is how to use custom WB while shooting RAW. I want to shoot RAW and import the custom WB during the RAW conversion phase as a starting point. Often, it should be good enough to use. I might try photos tonight at Rusted Root - not sure yet.

when you open up the images, the custom WB point is not selected?  that's pretty stupid.  it's probably the same on the 20d, i just don't pay attention cause i just use AWB.

[MattD]

I'll have to do a controlled test. I don't have a gray card or an expodisc, so the CWB might be off too, if I'm not careful. I'll have to shoot one RAW image and one JPG image separately with a CWB and see if the imported RAW colors match the JPGs (to some extent, I realize the RAW has more color levels).

[Todd R]

Cool Damon, thanks for the additional info.  +T in 12

I've fooled around a bit with using the shade WB setting for concerts rather than AWB, but I haven't done enough to make a determination as to which I like better.  Interesting your point about the images being much too warm -- I've noticed this too, but was thinking that was just what the LD was doing with the lights at the time of my exposure.  I've done a bit with shooting RAW at shows, but really am a bit too lazy with the need for post-processing.  I'll have to try that more.  I use RAW when trying for my more artistic photography so I'll have more control, but so far for shows I've been treating it a bit more like tourist snapshots.  Also, I've noticed that the smaller bars where I can easily bring my camera and 3 lenses (and one taping rig) tend not to have the most amazing lighting rigs.  SCI has an open photography policy, so I'll bring my stuff into the Fillmore in a couple weeks and see what I can get.  Assuming I've got it in me to push through the morass of e-tard wookies, they've got a pretty substantial lighting rig, so hopefully I can get some good shots.

Interesting about that firmware hack.  I'm probably too much of a wimp to actually do it, but out of curiosity -- what does it entail? I didn't even know the Rebel had a way of upgrading the firmware, even if it was official from Canon.

[dmonterisi]

Cool Damon, thanks for the additional info.  +T in 12

I've fooled around a bit with using the shade WB setting for concerts rather than AWB, but I haven't done enough to make a determination as to which I like better.  Interesting your point about the images being much too warm -- I've noticed this too, but was thinking that was just what the LD was doing with the lights at the time of my exposure.  I've done a bit with shooting RAW at shows, but really am a bit too lazy with the need for post-processing.  I'll have to try that more.  I use RAW when trying for my more artistic photography so I'll have more control, but so far for shows I've been treating it a bit more like tourist snapshots.  Also, I've noticed that the smaller bars where I can easily bring my camera and 3 lenses (and one taping rig) tend not to have the most amazing lighting rigs.  SCI has an open photography policy, so I'll bring my stuff into the Fillmore in a couple weeks and see what I can get.  Assuming I've got it in me to push through the morass of e-tard wookies, they've got a pretty substantial lighting rig, so hopefully I can get some good shots.

Interesting about that firmware hack.  I'm probably too much of a wimp to actually do it, but out of curiosity -- what does it entail? I didn't even know the Rebel had a way of upgrading the firmware, even if it was official from Canon.

yeah, i've found that shooting RAW is just another step in the process, I only shoot RAW.  I have a pretty reliable workflow and it's really not too bad since pretty much every image needs some PS tweaking, it's just a different step and actually minimizes some of what i would have to do in pshop.  for example, tweaking the white balance usually takes care of the color balance adjustments.  I use Capture One LE for processing RAW which allows for batch processing 20 images at once.  I go through, choose the images i like, adjust the settings and click a button and it runs through 20 images at once. 

updating the firmware typically entails downloading it and copying it to your CF card.  when you put the CF card with the firmware upgrade in the camera and turn it on, a message comes up asking if you want to update, you say yes and presto, it's done in a few minutes.  at least that's how it was with the official canon upgrade on the 20d, i'd imagine the process is exactly the same.

[MattD]

Interesting about that firmware hack. I'm probably too much of a wimp to actually do it, but out of curiosity -- what does it entail? I didn't even know the Rebel had a way of upgrading the firmware, even if it was official from Canon.

Damon is right - same process, you just use a different file (not one supplied by Canon). Google for the terms I mentioned in my previous post to see what's out there.

[dgale]

fyi, i don't know your level of understanding in the camera world, but it sounds like you are somewhat new to slr photography. 

Wow, thanks for all the great info - I definitely now have some homework to do to get up to speed.  It's been a long time since I used a SLR camera and have forgotten what little I knew, so thanks for all the advice and links.  I'm usually so busy running audio and video at shows, that my time window to run down front and shoot some photos is usually fairly limited, so I want to be able to make the best of limited time...not to mention actually be able to come home with some photos worth looking at. 

[dgale]

As long as we're on the subject of concert photos, I figured I'd throw up some of my favorties - these are from the Stones show I saw a few years ago at the Wiltern in LA.  We were on the first drink rail and the guy next to me was snapping away with a little point & click digital camera and I was always blown away how good they came out.  I have some more if folks want to see them...

[-Q-]

nice shot!  if you are going to use Av mode, you should consider setting exposure compensation to -1/2 or -2/3 stop.  the highlights on the guitar body and the guy's hand, as well as the entire drummer, are blown out to a total white because they are a bit over-exposed.

+T thanks for the info! i've just switched to a digital and still figuring it all out. i've got some way better photo's from that night. hopefully the band will use so i don't want to put them on-line. i would love to see some more, do you have a website?

[Ed.]

very nice posts damon +t

I've taken 4 years of photography in college, but after three years with no classes and not much camera use, that was a nice refresher course now that i'm starting to get back into it.

[Todd R]

Ok, I took some pics last night for Dr. John and SCI.  Some examples are posted in the rigs pics section.  Thanks much Damon for your pointers.  Using manual mode with the center weighted exposure rather than matrix exposure made a huge difference.  My first group of shots were unbelievably over exposed.  Based on the thumbnails on the camera, I increased the shutter speed and brought the ISO back to 400.  Those seemed good at the time, but I still ended up needing to decrease the exposure by 2 stops with the RAW files on several of the shots.

Obviously a lot to learn and a long way to go.  Unlike my taping, my picture taking seems to suffer greatly from my bourbon drinking.   At the very least, I've got to use AF not manual if I'm going to get liquored up.  I ran into Larry, SCI's archivist and live releases manager, who said I should've emailed him for a photo pass.  Probably too late for this run, but next time I'll try -- having a photo pass and getting away from dancing masses would probably help alot.

[creekfreak]

great posts...+T....I have been playing with my new digi rebel for a few days now...manual mode is great fun

[spplaxboy]

hey guys,
gotta say this site is really really cool..I was looking for show recordings, but came across this post. I'm a band photographer out of the Philly, PA area. I'm still using a 28-80 3.5-5.6/f lens and a 50mm 1.7/f lens more than anything else.
A few tips for shooting with NO FLASH:
1-The closer you can get to the stage, the better shots you will get with any lens. The closer you are, the more light you'll have, and the more richness in color too.
2-IF you can up your ISO (film speed) to 1600 on your digital camera, go for it. I shoot mostly film, but I use 1600 speed more than anything else.
3-As long as you have a steady hand while taking the shot, you can go as low as 1/30th of a second, and not have any motion blur..but that depends on what the artist is doing on stage at that time, and it can lead to some very cool shots....the one I attached was taken with no flash at 1/30th of a second.
4- If you're shooting in manual mode, overcompensate for the light. Your camera reads the light based on everything it sees through the lens in most cases. For example, if your camera says that the correct exposure is 1/90th, go down to 1/45 or 1/30..there's a very good shot that it's metering off of a bright light, and the musician will end up being a very dark blob.

Not sure when I'll be on here again, but if anyone has any photo questions, send me an email.. blackoutpictures@hotmail.com
or IM me: spplaxboy
Good luck!
-Drew