Topic: Neumann km184 > MP-2 vs. AKG 393 > MP-2

[aberg]

So, I've currently got the AKG 393 > MP-2 rig, and I haven't really tested it out *that* much, but there's that set of km184's for sale in the yard sale. I'm tempted...

what's everyone's opinion on the km184's versus akg bluelines? and into an mp-2?

Just wondering if I should fork out the extra $300-400 needed for the neumann's.......

[souper]

So, I've currently got the AKG 393 > MP-2 rig, and I haven't really tested it out *that* much, but there's that set of km184's for sale in the yard sale. I'm tempted...

what's everyone's opinion on the km184's versus akg bluelines? and into an mp-2?

Just wondering if I should fork out the extra $300-400 needed for the neumann's.......

I would say that the 184s will sound better, in general, than the 390 series mics.  I cannot comment on the use of the mp2 with them however.

[aberg]

Cuz the other option is to hang onto the 393s and then hold out for some akg 480s down the road...

[souper]

Cuz the other option is to hang onto the 393s and then hold out for some akg 480s down the road...

You could do the same change (if desired) if you had the 184s, and be closer to actual cost of 480s when /if you decide to sell the 184s.

[aberg]

Cuz the other option is to hang onto the 393s and then hold out for some akg 480s down the road...

You could do the same change (if desired) if you had the 184s, and be closer to actual cost of 480s when /if you decide to sell the 184s.

True... the only thing really holding me back here is that I have only taped 3 shows with the 393s... I don't feel I've given them enough of a test.

[souper]

I can understand that feeling.  What are you looking to "test?"  Sure they sound nice, but didn't the Core Sound omnis sound nice in your initial recordings before the upgrade (hypothetical/rhetorical)?

The 184s will sound a bit different than the 390s as well.  You would also be giving up the option of mulitple caps. Something to think about, but if I had the means, I would likely try to get the Neumanns.

[Ed.]

if you go with the 184's, i'd highly suggest some silver cables, they really opened up the sound for me.  I don't think I made a bad recording with them once I switched to silver.

[souper]

if you go with the 184's, i'd highly suggest some silver cables, they really opened up the sound for me.  I don't think I made a bad recording with them once I switched to silver.

While not discounting that silver cables may sound better with those microphones, did you really make bad recordings with non-silver cables where silver cables would give you a good recording?

[Ed.]

no, the recordings weren't bad, but when i made the switch, the quality was night and day.  I don't quite know how to describe it, but the sound just opened up, more clarity, just better overall sound.  I never really thought the 184's were bad, but with the silver cables they quickly became my favorite mics...well, until i bought the 140's.

[aberg]

I've already got a set of ToddR silver cables... so I'm set in that respect.

I might try and run both mics at shows... alternate sets or something, just to see what I like best, and then sell the others.

[aberg]

no, the recordings weren't bad, but when i made the switch, the quality was night and day.  I don't quite know how to describe it, but the sound just opened up, more clarity, just better overall sound.  I never really thought the 184's were bad, but with the silver cables they quickly became my favorite mics...well, until i bought the 140's.

And had you had experience with AKG mics before?? I seem to recall you jumped from the luxes to Audix and then Neumann's?

[souper]

no, the recordings weren't bad, but when i made the switch, the quality was night and day.  I don't quite know how to describe it, but the sound just opened up, more clarity, just better overall sound.  I never really thought the 184's were bad, but with the silver cables they quickly became my favorite mics...well, until i bought the 140's.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Ed.]

no experience with akg's, so i'm not much help in that regard.  i wanted to get blue lines, but got the audix's instead, and then when I sold those, I got the 184's (when my plan was to get 480's).

So yeah, I'm probably not the best person to be helping with your choice between the two.  I just wanted to comment on the cables.

good luck withe the choice tho.

[aberg]

Thanks, I think I'll just run both for a while off and on if I can scrounge the cash.

[BC]

IMHO

184's all the way.   

[willndmb]

I've already got a set of ToddR silver cables... so I'm set in that respect.

I might try and run both mics at shows... alternate sets or something, just to see what I like best, and then sell the others.

thats the only way to tell imo
even listening to them from different shows doesn't give you a true comp imo

[aberg]

Now, let's stir this up a bit... assuming I definitely wanted to upgrade from the 393's.... what does everyone like more:

neumann km184

or

mbho 603/ka200n

keeping in mind again that they'd be used with an mp2.

Cheers!

[krebsy]

I ran 391/93's for a bit before moving to km140's.  I think the 140's have a much clearer overall sound, but don't quite have the same thump that the blue lines have.  This biggest difference I noticed was that the top end on the Neumann's is sooooo smooth and detailed. They can be a bit clinical at times with the T+ UA-5, but get them in the sweet spot and lookout! I'm guessing you would be happy with the switch, but the blue lines are solid mics. I still like the tapes I made with them.

[JasonSobel]

in my opinion, I think the the Neumann's need a cleaner pre-amp to really sound good.
I started off with a pair of AKG 391's, running them through a ps2 > ad20.  then I sold the ad20, and bought some line transformers and a modSBM-1.  I thought the modSBM1 was great with the AKG's, but then I sold the 391's and bought a pair of km184's.  I thought that this combo really wasn't a good match.  so, I started thinking about picking up a used V2.  but with then decided to sell the modSBM1 instead and bought a new V3.  Granted, this isn't with an mp-2.  however, I think as a general statement, both the mp-2 and the modSBM1 can be described as "colored" or "warm" or whatever.  the point that I'm trying to make is that, IMO, you'd be much happier running a very clean pre-amp with the Neumann's.  and IMO, the mp-2 is not the cleanest of pre-amps.

to sum up, I think the km184's are great mics.  I definitely think they are a step up from the bluelines.  but, if you decide to go for it, perhaps also consider selling the mp-2.  oh, and km184 vs. mbho's.  I'd definitely pick the km184 over the ho's.  with the km184, you get the smooth classic neumann sound.  with the MBHO's, you don't.   of course, the with the km184's, you are "limited" to card's, but you've probably already considered that (and I put "limited" in quotes, because I think 80-90% of the time, I'd be running cards anyway.)

[aberg]

Yeah, that's a good point. However don't you think the mp-2 would level out about of the "brightness" of the km184's... that's what I've heard.

[JasonSobel]

Yeah, that's a good point. However don't you think the mp-2 would level out about of the "brightness" of the km184's... that's what I've heard.

honestly, it's all about what you want to hear on your tapes.  I didn't find the km184's particularly "bright", at least not overly so.  definitely not as bright as the MBHO's.  I think the mid-range on the km184's is their best attribute, very smooth.  only on rare occasions did I hear a small hint of harshness on cymbals (and this was through a V3 @ 16 bit, with the mics on-stage and close to the drums).  Basically, the mid-range is what draws me to a particular sound of mic.  The km184's have a great "sound" to them, and I wanted the pre-amp to add or take away very very little, because I liked the mics so much.  I didn't want a pre-amp to "balance out" or "level out" or somehow mitigate the sound of the mics in any way.  I just wanted the sound of the mics.

obviously, with so many choices for mics and pre-amps and A/D converters, not everyone wants to hear the same characteristics on their recordings.  what do you want to hear?  the sound of the mics, first and foremost?  or do you want gear in your recording chain to "balance out" or alter the sound of the mics.  You seem pretty dead-set to upgrade from the 393's.  what is it that you want to change in you recordings?

[aberg]

What I find lacking with the 393's is detail and clarity... the recordings don't sound crisp enough to me.

[JasonSobel]

What I find lacking with the 393's is detail and clarity... the recordings don't sound crisp enough to me.

well, IMO, the km184's certainly have more detail and clarity.  you could always get the km184's, and see if you like it with the mp-2.  if you like the sound, great, you're all set.  if you find that the mp-2 is adding or taking away too much from the mics, you could sell the mp-2 and pick up a used V2 or something like that.  I can't offer direct experience with the MBHO's, because I've never used them.

[JasonSobel]

oh, and perhaps you should also consider the Audix m1290's in the yard sale.  definitely a "clean" sounding mic.  I don't know, just a thought.

[aberg]

oh, and perhaps you should also consider the Audix m1290's in the yard sale.  definitely a "clean" sounding mic.  I don't know, just a thought.

It's a thought, but right now I'm really torn between the 184's and mbho's.

I agree with you about the issue of interchangeable caps. To me, having a whole bunch of caps just complicates a rig. I don't see myself being in so many different recording situations to warrant choosing a line with interchangeable caps necessarily. So that's not really a selling point for me. I do like the AKG bass, but sometimes it's a little overwhelming even. I have heard both muddy and real thumpy mbho bass recordings... so it's hard to get a feel for what these mics really sound like.

As always, a lot of what you hear on the archive is dependent on the venue and location, not necessarily the mics. I've been trying to get samples from outdoor festivals, which really let you hear what the mics sound like, instead of hearing what a "room" sounds like...

[JasonSobel]

on-stage is another great place to hear what a mic sounds like, hardly any "room" sound.

if you want to hear a lot of on-stage km184 > V3 recordings, check out the "Club d'Elf" section of the archive.  you'll find lots of my recordings from 2004 and early 2005.  just something to listen to that may or may not help you decide...

[aberg]

on-stage is another great place to hear what a mic sounds like, hardly any "room" sound.

if you want to hear a lot of on-stage km184 > V3 recordings, check out the "Club d'Elf" section of the archive.  you'll find lots of my recordings from 2004 and early 2005.  just something to listen to that may or may not help you decide...

I'm also getting sources from bands that I also tend to see a lot and tape... ie. Umphrey's, moe., etc... the more raucous jambands. I'm starting to lean toward the neumann's but I'll check out some of those on-stage tapes too.

[poorlyconditioned]

on-stage is another great place to hear what a mic sounds like, hardly any "room" sound.

if you want to hear a lot of on-stage km184 > V3 recordings, check out the "Club d'Elf" section of the archive.  you'll find lots of my recordings from 2004 and early 2005.  just something to listen to that may or may not help you decide...

I'm also getting sources from bands that I also tend to see a lot and tape... ie. Umphrey's, moe., etc... the more raucous jambands. I'm starting to lean toward the neumann's but I'll check out some of those on-stage tapes too.

Another thing is you might want to try the AKG 480's.  From what others say at least, this is a good match to the MP2.  Still got the AKG sound, but probably a bit nicer than the 390's.

I agree with what others have said though, so much depends on the band, the PA and the room.  It is hard to do, but I would love to hear identical settings using different mics.  Hey, I've got a Presonus Firepod (eight mic/line inputs).  If anyone wants to lend me a set of their mics I can run a side-by-side comparison .  Not in the big league, but I'm trying to score a Rode NT4 to compare: AKG 391/93 vs. Rode NT4 vs. AT853(C).  I'll post here if I succeed.

Oh yeah, can you rent a pair of Neumans?  I haven't found anywhere here, perhaps in a bigger city/store.

  Richard

[aberg]

I'm talking to Sanjay about he and I running a km184 vs. mbho603/200 vs. akg 393 comparison at moe in Syracuse next month... we both have essentially the same pre, so it would be a good test.

[poorlyconditioned]

I'm talking to Sanjay about he and I running a km184 vs. mbho603/200 vs. akg 393 comparison at moe in Syracuse next month... we both have essentially the same pre, so it would be a good test.

Excellent!  Be sure to report back when you get this...

  Richard

[aberg]

Will do...

[Mike Sarnovsky]

I ran this combo for YEARS and loved pretty much everything... may I suggest a MOD SBM-1 at the end of that chain to make it the perfect setup!

[aberg]

I ran this combo for YEARS and loved pretty much everything... may I suggest a MOD SBM-1 at the end of that chain to make it the perfect setup!

I'm running the Edirol R-1 as the recorder, which does the built-in ADC (which is really great IMO so far)... so no need for the sbm-1

[aberg]

Ok, so I decided to go for the neumann's... we'll see how they compare to 393's and mbho's in our little test next month. I'll keep everyone posted. Peace.

[willndmb]

I'm talking to Sanjay about he and I running a km184 vs. mbho603/200 vs. akg 393 comparison at moe in Syracuse next month... we both have essentially the same pre, so it would be a good test.

great idea
this show is going to have a nice group there
i will be there with daniel doodwin too

[poorlyconditioned]

Ok, so I decided to go for the neumann's... we'll see how they compare to 393's and mbho's in our little test next month. I'll keep everyone posted. Peace.

+T for the #1 Canadian gearslut.  My head is spinning with all the gear changes!

  Richard

[dgodwin]

I'm talking to Sanjay about he and I running a km184 vs. mbho603/200 vs. akg 393 comparison at moe in Syracuse next month... we both have essentially the same pre, so it would be a good test.

great idea
this show is going to have a nice group there
i will be there with daniel doodwin too

doodwin.. that's something my kids would call me (I teach highshool science.. Mostly freshman) 

[F.O.Bean]

i think the 184's are an overall more detailed mic, but the 393>mp2 is a hard combo to beat IMO, close up or back in an arena, its a solid combo

I havent heard enuf 184>mp2 tapes to make a SOLID statement so.....

[aberg]

i think the 184's are an overall more detailed mic, but the 393>mp2 is a hard combo to beat IMO, close up or back in an arena, its a solid combo

I havent heard enuf 184>mp2 tapes to make a SOLID statement so.....

Yeah, I guess I'll be trying to answer some of those questions with these comparisons in the next month or so.

[Sanjay]

If anyone wants to lend us another MP-2/mixpre/fp-24 and jb3 we can test more mics in this comparison

I have some phantomed AT933's we could test.

[aberg]

If anyone wants to lend us another MP-2/mixpre/fp-24 and jb3 we can test more mics in this comparison

I have some phantomed AT933's we could test.

Yeah, that would be pretty awesome. Run ho's, 184's and 393's simultaneously into 3 mp-2/fp-24/mixpre rigs....

I might be able to get my hands on a jb3 for that.

[Kyle]

I used to run the 184s, and, imo, if you can swing the extra cash, get the 140s. Changable capsules notwithstanding, I think that the 140s are a step up from the 184s - I think the 140s have smoother mids/highs and a tighter, more detailed bottom end. When I sold my 184s I was happy to see them go, but the 140s have me stoked on Neumanns again.

[poorlyconditioned]

I used to run the 184s, and, imo, if you can swing the extra cash, get the 140s. Changable capsules notwithstanding, I think that the 140s are a step up from the 184s - I think the 140s have smoother mids/highs and a tighter, more detailed bottom end. When I sold my 184s I was happy to see them go, but the 140s have me stoked on Neumanns again.

One step at a time!  Let aberg run the 184's for at least a week or two...

  Richard

[dgodwin]

I was always under the impression that the 184 and the 140 were pretty much identical, except the 140's had interchangable caps, and could be run actively.  Learn something new everyday...

[poorlyconditioned]

If anyone wants to lend us another MP-2/mixpre/fp-24 and jb3 we can test more mics in this comparison

I have some phantomed AT933's we could test.

Yeah, that would be pretty awesome. Run ho's, 184's and 393's simultaneously into 3 mp-2/fp-24/mixpre rigs....

I might be able to get my hands on a jb3 for that.

My vote is a comparison between: 184's, 393's (or better yet, 391's), and AT853 (or AT933 with 853C caps), or SP C4 (cards).  Those are the most popular types and I have not seen much comparison, in particular between AKG300's and CP C4's.

  Richard

[aberg]

AHaha, at least 1 week or 2.... I guess I"ve gotten that slutty relationship haha.

Yeah, I'd heard the same thing Dan about 184's being the same as 140's just fixed cap. Either way, I definitely don't have the cash for a complete 140 active set, nor do I need or want actives, so i think the 184's will keep me going for a while, provided they win the comparison to the opinion of my ears.

[Kyle]

I used to run the 184s, and, imo, if you can swing the extra cash, get the 140s. Changable capsules notwithstanding, I think that the 140s are a step up from the 184s - I think the 140s have smoother mids/highs and a tighter, more detailed bottom end. When I sold my 184s I was happy to see them go, but the 140s have me stoked on Neumanns again.

One step at a time!  Let aberg run the 184's for at least a week or two...

  Richard

 

gettin a little excited - brakes on...

[Kyle]

I was always under the impression that the 184 and the 140 were pretty much identical, except the 140's had interchangable caps, and could be run actively.  Learn something new everyday...

I used to run the 184s, and, imo, if you can swing the extra cash, get the 140s. Changable capsules notwithstanding, I think that the 140s are a step up from the 184s - I think the 140s have smoother mids/highs and a tighter, more detailed bottom end. When I sold my 184s I was happy to see them go, but the 140s have me stoked on Neumanns again.

I totally agree with cmc64's assessment of the 184 vs. the 140.  The 140s sound more like "real" Neumann's, i.e Gefell's.  I am not saying the 184s are bad, just not on par with the KM series; they are definitely not the same mics.

If I owned a pair of 184's I would not run a "warm" pre in front of them, opting for a V3, Oade T+ or Busman2p+ mod UA5. 

Their weakness is their slightly sloppy low end, and this is accented even more with a warm pre, and cleaned up with a transparent one.

If I ever sold my MG's to get another pair of SD actives, it would be the Neumann KM series.
 
The only weakness with the KM line is the hyper capsule which is lacking in quality compared to the M21 capsule.

that's it exactly

I ran my 184s with a V2>SBM1 combo - the SBM1 is 'warm' as it is and it might have been a little too much - I found myself using the HPF2 on the V2 freqently

I thought that they did very well in clubs/smaller rooms - those are my best recordings with them
I think I would have liked them more with a different adc

[aberg]

Hah, you guys are making me regret this within hours of my purchase. 

All told, this is about personal preference and experimentation. Only time and testing will tell what I like best. If this "warmth" issue becomes something of a concern, I might look into a V2 for now, since to get a V3 would be expensive and would require changing my recorder too.

[Kyle]

Hah, you guys are making me regret this within hours of my purchase. 

All told, this is about personal preference and experimentation. Only time and testing will tell what I like best. If this "warmth" issue becomes something of a concern, I might look into a V2 for now, since to get a V3 would be expensive and would require changing my recorder too.

Do not regret your purchase - you are going to make some incredible recordings
keep sluttin' it up

[aberg]

If a v2 pops up in the yard sale sometime in the new year, you'll probably see me running that rig.. haha.

the v2>sbm-1 setup kind of baffles me... if people suggest running a transparent pre behind the 184's, then why add warmth after the fact with an sbm-1?

[poorlyconditioned]

If a v2 pops up in the yard sale sometime in the new year, you'll probably see me running that rig.. haha.

the v2>sbm-1 setup kind of baffles me... if people suggest running a transparent pre behind the 184's, then why add warmth after the fact with an sbm-1?

I expect an improvement moving from AKG 300's > Neumans, and also moving from MP2 > V2.  The question is how much each will contribute, and we'll be waiting for your answer...

  Richard

[Ed.]

if you got the 184's in the yard sale, you got them for nice price and will easily be able to sell them if they're not what you want.  they're a very popular mic.

as for 184's vs. 140's - i think the 184's are the closest you can get to the sound of the 140's but they're still not the 140's.  at least in my opinion, but its all in the ears, an everyones are different.  either way, they're still solid great sounding mics and i think you'll like them.

[Mojowill]

a lot of good advice all around here.  I would look at the switchable cap options the 390s give you over the 184's.  The 184s are fantastic mics and work really well with the MP2 Distant Jay runs that combo and he makes wonderful tapes.  but I am an AKG fan  sell em all and get the 480's with cards hypers and omnis.  IMHO.

[aberg]

I just read a post by distant jay... it seems I might have to dial down the gain real low on the mp-2, and then crank the input on the R-1 a bit so keep everything from clipping. I think that would also reduce any low-end issues, since the R-1 is very clean.

[George]

If anyone wants to lend us another MP-2/mixpre/fp-24 and jb3 we can test more mics in this comparison

I have some phantomed AT933's we could test.

I have an MP-2 that probably wont see any use anytime soon.  Drop me a pm.