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Author Topic: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp (Spoilers/Answers now inside...)  (Read 16877 times)

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Offline Nick Graham

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« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 12:13:37 PM by Nick Graham »
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2005, 04:50:14 PM »
Hmmmm...at just a quick listen, these sound closer to each other than I expected!  Gonna have to listen more before providing feedback...
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Offline Teen Age Riot

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2005, 07:49:25 PM »
I was suprised too. Considering that this is a modSBM1, I really don't regret selling my stock SBM1. To my ears the difference is very very subtle, but I prefer the second source, because the low end sounds slightly better. I'm very curious as to which source is which.

Offline Chris K

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2005, 08:06:43 PM »
i downloaded but couldnt tell the difference either with my crappy pc speakers and my apple ipod earbuds.

i will give a listen through the tannoys and 7506's and thoughts a little later
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Offline neutrino

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2005, 11:56:28 AM »
I would have thought this comp would have been a no brainer cause I run both the MK4's and a modSBM-1. The big difference with my rig is that I use an nBox and here the Sonosax is used. I get a noticeably rounder and warmer low end and a less brittle sounding highs. The modSBM-1 could be improving what the NBox lacks, where with the Sonosax, there would be less of a noticeable improvement.
dB-
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 01:32:11 PM by neutrino »
CA14/OM14 > A10
Sony SBM-1 Oade mod

Offline Nick Graham

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2005, 12:00:24 PM »
FWIW, here's the "answers":

Song 1 Source A: M1
Song 1 Source B: (mod)SBM1

Song 2 Source A: (mod)SBM1
Song 2 Source B: M1
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline macdaddy

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2005, 12:06:05 PM »
ack - please say "spoiler ahead"

i hit reply real quick, cos i didnt want to see the answers... i will listen to these today, and be back... thanks for the effort...



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Offline neutrino

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2005, 12:07:21 PM »
After a few listens to the first sample I thought the B source was the modSBM-1. The low end in the b-source sounds a bit rounder/tighter... Nick, what's your conclusion?
dB-
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2005, 12:09:00 PM »
I get a noticeable rounder and warmer low end and a less brittle sounding high. The modSBM-1 could be improving what the NBox lacks, where with the Sonosax, there would be less of a noticeable improvement.

In the recordings I've heard, the modSBM-1 definitely helps smooth out the HF nasties I hear in the NBox, whereas I find the SX-M2/LS2 smoother across the board regardless of ADC used.

FWIW, here's the "answers":

Double ACK!!  I'll have Jen rename the files for me so I don't know...still have some listening to do on this one...
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Offline Nick Graham

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2005, 12:11:37 PM »
Also, just to give my own opinion, I really can't hear enough difference to justify keeping the (mod)SBM1 in the chain.

It was great when I ran MBHOs and AKG 460s, as it definitely added some needed bottom end. With Schoeps though, they're not lacking in the low end dept., so it doesn't really seem necessary.

I'm gonna do it at more than just one show though, but I can't see the results being much different. The only thing I noticed was the low end did seem a bit tighter with the SBM1, not that the M1 source was sloppy or anything.

Just my $.02
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline Nick Graham

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ack - please say "spoiler ahead"

Updated the title of the thread...
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline JasonR

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Re: (mod)SBM1 Vs. PCM-M1 A/D Converter Comp up in Kickdown Section...
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2005, 12:16:41 PM »
Aah... I was scratching my head trying to decide if I liked Source A or B better and couldn't decide because I liked one better on the first track, and the other on the second.

These are VERY similar sounding.  Monitoring on Genelec 1031As, I like 1B and 2A better for what sounds like better stereo seperation and slightly better dynamics.  The frequency response of the two are nearly indistinguisable.  I don't think I could tell which is which at all if these were mono summed.

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Offline Nick Graham

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Aah... I was scratching my head trying to decide if I liked Source A or B better and couldn't decide because I liked one better on the first track, and the other on the second.

These are VERY similar sounding. Monitoring on Genelec 1031As, I like 1B and 2A better for what sounds like better stereo seperation and slightly better dynamics. The frequency response of the two are nearly indistinguisable. I don't think I could tell which is which at all if these were mono summed.

- Jason

Now here's the true test...

Let me borrow your 722 for a 3 way comp

;)

Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline JasonR

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Now here's the true test...

Let me borrow your 722 for a 3 way comp

;)
Nashville's a little far, but you're welcome to come up to NYC and play with it for a while.  I could run a comparison between the SBM-1 (cable-mod only I believe), M1 and 722, but I wouldn't imagine there'd be any real interest in that.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Alright, don't have time at the moment to do a full blind listening test, but a quick post anyway.  I hear a bit more detail across the board in the modSBM-1 recording which results in slightly smoother highs and a touch fuller bass and a slightly more coherent soundstage.  These two sources sound mighty close to my ears - closer than I expected - and I'd be happy to walk away with either recording.  I know based on this listening (and my limited stealthing engagements) I can't justify the extra cash for the modSBM-1 in my stealth recording setup (MKx > KCY > SX-M2/LS2 > D100).
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Offline hzgone

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when i first listened to this i had to go with song 1 source A.  I thought it was a tad brighther than B.  When i listened to the second set of songs i could not hear a big difference
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Offline cgrooves

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Thanks, Nick.
Confirms what I have read & been told.  I definitely could not justify using the SBM1 (especially if unmodified).
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I just bought a modSBM and wondered where the big sound difference was compared to my M1.  I'll run it next month at a festival and do some critical listening before deciding whether to keep it. I'm also wondering whether the M-audio Flash Tracker's A/D will be decent, or if a coax-modded modSBM would be an ideal pairing with the M-audio recorder.
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Offline sullen

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That is wild.

Havent listened in headphones, but the first one you can tell ever so slightly, and i would have never known in the second....

Makes me wonder if i can get away with running mic in now?

Thanx for posting this, very interesting!!!!!
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Offline cgrooves

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"Makes me wonder if i can get away with running mic in now?"

Why would you wan't to do that?  I've always read & been told that you need to run line-in and run the 20 db ATT setting in order to get the most out of the m1's A/D converter.  I'm able to run my m1 dial at 8, and sometimes 10 using this method with my rig. If I ran the same rig via mic-in, I may be able to get rid of my transformers and run the dial at a lower setting, but the A/D converter is supposedly much better in the m1 if you can run the dial wide open (i.e. 10).
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Offline nickgregory

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Makes me wonder if i can get away with running mic in now?

Thanx for posting this, very interesting!!!!!

the mic pre on those units will brick wall with normal concert SPLs

Offline sullen

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heh.

nevermind!  :-X

i dont know what i was thinking.
For a minute i thought this was a comparison of mic-in vs sbm1>m1

not with it today!
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Offline Professor chaos

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i was not able to tell the difference between two. maybe it was because of the schoeps low end. i wonder if there is noticable difference with brighter mics like akg?
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Offline ShawnF

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I'm also wondering whether the M-audio Flash Tracker's A/D will be decent, or if a coax-modded modSBM would be an ideal pairing with the M-audio recorder.

Only if you're recording @ 16-bit, though, right?  On a related note, and at the risk of thread-hijacking, is there a stealthable A/D for 24?

Offline zhianosatch

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i could definitely tell the difference between the two and i agree with skalinder's comments.
but i also think the difference in sound, although subtle, is worth schlepping the extra gear.

Offline macdaddy

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thanks again for posting the comp...

i could definitely tell the difference between the two and i agree with skalinder's comments.
but i also think the difference in sound, although subtle, is worth schlepping the extra gear.

agreed.

and i think that with some mics the differnce is more pronounced...

i have a tape i did where the batts of the sbm1 died, and i had to run to the d8, and you can totally tell a difference...

you need an a/d, and @ 16 bit, i dont think anything beats the modSBM1...
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Offline zhianosatch

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thanks again for posting the comp...

i could definitely tell the difference between the two and i agree with skalinder's comments.
but i also think the difference in sound, although subtle, is worth schlepping the extra gear.

agreed.

and i think that with some mics the differnce is more pronounced...

i have a tape i did where the batts of the sbm1 died, and i had to run to the d8, and you can totally tell a difference...

you need an a/d, and @ 16 bit, i dont think anything beats the modSBM1...

even though the difference between the d8 and the m1 is remarkable, the modsbm-1 is worth the money and the effort, IMO.

Offline Professor chaos

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i thought that the difference between a mod sbm-1 and a pcm-m1 would be more pronounced. in my opinion it is not worth the $$$ for the mod sbm-1 if you've got a pcm-m1.
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i thought that the difference between a mod sbm-1 and a pcm-m1 would be more pronounced. in my opinion it is not worth the $$$ for the mod sbm-1 if you've got a pcm-m1.

It all tends on the mics ran it with Audix it helped a ton ..Am not so sure on the Dpa 4061's ,I do know you can run your gear much hotter with SBM-1 without brickwalling..The more ya get in the better it sounds with the 61's no doubt..Or was it the more ya get in the better it feels  ::)

Offline Chris K

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after listening repeatedly with headphones and with nearfields, i thought the source A of both tracks 1 and 2 sounded better...more impact and a fuller sound all around.

i am curious how each gain was set on the m1 and the sbm-1. were they both dialed in at say 7 on the gain dial, or was the m1 higher in gain setting than the sbm-1. i would venture to say that the m1 was probably dialed in a little higher than the sbm-1 to achive such a similar sound.

also it seems like it was a smaller room. have you tried the same test in a larger venue? from further away from the stage...say 20ft or so? or off center? i just wonder if the worse the conditions are the better (or not) the mod-sbm1 performs.
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Offline JasonSobel

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On a related note, and at the risk of thread-hijacking, is there a stealthable A/D for 24?


There is the Core Sound mic2496.  It is the size of an AD-20.  I have a few 24 bit shows made with it, but not enough for me to form a complete opinion.

Offline Tim

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I think there are a lot of variables that go into deciding whether or not a particular piece of gear is "worth it". Don't rush to judgment based on one comparison, especially if you don't record with the same mics and pre, the same style of music, the same type of venue, etc...

comparisons are great, I enjoy them a lot but I try to never make a decision on gear until I've held it in my hand and run it myself....
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Offline Nick Graham

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after listening repeatedly with headphones and with nearfields, i thought the source A of both tracks 1 and 2 sounded better...more impact and a fuller sound all around.

i am curious how each gain was set on the m1 and the sbm-1. were they both dialed in at say 7 on the gain dial, or was the m1 higher in gain setting than the sbm-1. i would venture to say that the m1 was probably dialed in a little higher than the sbm-1 to achive such a similar sound.

also it seems like it was a smaller room. have you tried the same test in a larger venue? from further away from the stage...say 20ft or so? or off center? i just wonder if the worse the conditions are the better (or not) the mod-sbm1 performs.

It's weird you mention Source A for both tracks, as they're different sources...the 1st track Source A is just the M1, the Source A on the 2nd track is (mod)SBM1>D8. That pretty much proves Tim's theory below though...different bands/types of music/venues may be benefit more from one or the other.

Both of the bands in this comp are just local groups I'm friends with, so I was able to setup during soundcheck and get the levels pretty much exact on both. FWIW the SXM2 was on low gain at 10 0'clock, the M1 was set at 8, and the (mod)SBM1>D8 was at about 6 1/2.

I'm gonna be running the same comp twice this week in 2 other venues, if there's any interest I'll post the results. I just bought a pair of MK21s for outdoor use this summer, so the first chance I get I'll do another test with those.

I think there are a lot of variables that go into deciding whether or not a particular piece of gear is "worth it". Don't rush to judgment based on one comparison, especially if you don't record with the same mics and pre, the same style of music, the same type of venue, etc...

comparisons are great, I enjoy them a lot but I try to never make a decision on gear until I've held it in my hand and run it myself....

No plans on selling the (mod)SBM1 just yet. Even though I actually like just the M1 more so far, I'll do a lot more listening before I get rid of it. It's also kinda nice to have in my arsenal "just in case".
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline fobstl

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I've always read & been told that you need to run line-in and run the 20 db ATT setting in order to get the most out of the m1's A/D converter. 

FYI the "20 db ATT" setting on the M1 is only active through mic in. Take a look at the setting on the deck itself - it is called "Mic ATT". This setting has no effect when running line in. That being said, as you mentioined, running line in should give better results because you are bypassing the not so great mic pre circuitry in the M1.

Offline Tim

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steve - you are getting to be a regular around here!
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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steve - you are getting to be a regular around here!

yep.....we totally sucked him in ;D  he can no longer fight the addiction

BTW - I've always been a fan of the M1's A>D  and these results are not surprising to me at all.

Offline Tim

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I have to say that the 3 shows I have done in the last week line in to the m1 have all been very enjoyable. I now have a RamsdenMod-SBM1 to play around with too so I'm looking forward to doing some comparison's

I'm wondering if the fact that I am not taping pa's will make any differences more dramatic....
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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I'm wondering if the fact that I am not taping pa's will make any differences more dramatic....

what are you going to be recording m0k3 jr.?

:P

(i couldn't resist, sorry)

An ensemble that puts a full range of frequncies will definitely allow you to hear the difference much easier than comparing PA tapes made from a taping section, no doubt.

edit:  wow, what a competely obvious statement i just made :D 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2005, 03:25:10 PM by STL-Taper »

Offline Tim

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I'm not quite Moke Jr but I'm progressing in that direction :P

I still have to stealth all of the classical stuff that I see :)
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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:) +T

that DPA setup is quite nice. 

Offline Tim

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in a blind comp with any other omni's you would have a hard time discerning the difference between the mini dpa's and the big boys

I am thoroughly impressed.

the preamp is quite nice too, very clean gain and built exceptionally well... it's like a mini Grace product. I'm hoping to have a V3 to throw behind these mics by the end of summer.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Nick Graham

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I'm hoping to have a V3 to throw behind these mics by the end of summer.

Wow...

4061>V3, can't say I've ever heard that before, I'd imagine it would sound extremely nice though.
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline fobstl

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steve - you are getting to be a regular around here!

yep.....we totally sucked him in ;D  he can no longer fight the addiction
Yeah, you pushers lured me in. "You should check it out - all the cool kids are doing it".

marc0789

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in a blind comp with any other omni's you would have a hard time discerning the difference between the mini dpa's and the big boys

I am thoroughly impressed.

the preamp is quite nice too, very clean gain and built exceptionally well... it's like a mini Grace product. I'm hoping to have a V3 to throw behind these mics by the end of summer.

yeah, I'd like some omnis, and rather than kick down 3k for a pair of 4028 or whatever the omni bodyless are, I've thought that a pair of 4061>xlr adaptors would do the job.

as for the M1 a/d, it is truly topnotch. I'd prefer it over the p-1 and even the hhb a/d, and definitely over the d8. however, I think that although it is very smooth, the m1 a/d does not quite have the fine detail of the modsbm1. ymmv of course.

Offline Brian

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steve - you are getting to be a regular around here!

yep.....we totally sucked him in ;D  he can no longer fight the addiction
Yeah, you pushers lured me in. "You should check it out - all the cool kids are doing it".

;D

sorry about last night steve.   sending you a PM now......

Offline Nick Graham

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sorry about last night steve.

The fun one could have with that comment when taken out of context...

;)
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline Brian

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sorry about last night steve.

The fun one could have with that comment when taken out of context...

;)

you dirty, dirty, man :P

Offline Chris K

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Quote

Wow...

4061>V3, can't say I've ever heard that before, I'd imagine it would sound extremely nice though.

i know craig t runs this setup occassionally...real nice
My gear: JK Labs AKG DVC > M10
              AKG 460 ck61/ck62/ck63 > DR-70D
             
A live concert to me is exciting because of all the electricity that is generated in the crowd and on stage. It's my favorite part of the business, live concerts.
-Elvis Presley

Offline Tim

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steve - you are getting to be a regular around here!

yep.....we totally sucked him in ;D  he can no longer fight the addiction
Yeah, you pushers lured me in. "You should check it out - all the cool kids are doing it".

sounds like a conversation I had with EScott a few years back :P

;)
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

 

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