Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)

[shaggy]

Has anyone done any direct comparison to the PCM-D50 line in?  Also, I am not sure if this was mentioned, the limiter feature where it records a track at -20dB below the set levels, is that a feature with the M10?

[fmaderjr]

The limiter is different on the M10. Not as sophisticated, but does seem to prevent bad sounding clipping if you don't go over 0 dB by more than -12 dB.

For 24 bit recording, having a limiter is not that important because you can aim to have your levels peak around -12 dB or so.

[earmonger]

There's been a lot of comparison here between the M10 and Edirol's R-09HR, but no mention of the Zoom. How does the PCM-M10 compare to the Zoom H4N?

The Zoom is much bigger and has shorter battery life. But it does have XLR inputs and phantom power, and does surround-sound recording, not just stereo.

http://reviews.cnet.com/portable-audio-devices/zoom-h4n/4505-6450_7-33483153.html

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/zoom-h4n-review.html

[fmaderjr]

The Zoom ......does have XLR inputs and phantom power, and does surround-sound recording, not just stereo.

But if these things are not important to you, I'm sure that either the HR or M10 would be a far better choice for field recording.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

In contrast, the R-09HR and R-09 create noise in your recording whenever you change the record level even if you are using external mics and even if you can eliminate handling noise.

I've never experienced that problem with my r09.  Though I usually prefer to use a preamp and make the gain changes on the front end.   And even then, I tend to make any gain changes between songs.  Otherwise post-process mid-song leveling is a hassle.

Needing to lock the knob with tape, and the inability to set the recorder gain exactly, are negatives for how I use a recorder.  I'm not sure what they were thinking in putting a knob on a "pocket" recorder.  Does the display show the gain setting as the knob is adjusted?

I'd really like to hear a v3 > m10 vs. v3 > microtrack comp on some bass intensive material.  I posted those comps in the past with the r09, and the r09 was generally preferred over the v3 a/d.

Regarding the earlier discussion about the lifespan of these recorders being short due to the advance of technology, I disagree.   You don't see 722 owners hoping for the next advance in tech.  The only thing I want beyond the r09 is even better sound quality; an a/d that is closer to the 722, and the 722's 25DbFS signal handling.

[bgalizio]

In contrast, the R-09HR and R-09 create noise in your recording whenever you change the record level even if you are using external mics and even if you can eliminate handling noise.

I've never experienced that problem with my r09.  Though I usually prefer to use a preamp and make the gain changes on the front end.   And even then, I tend to make any gain changes between songs.  Otherwise post-process mid-song leveling is a hassle.

I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

The way I see it: the gain knob is a neg vs. the R09HR. The battery life is a plus. If the ADC is similar, and the ability to take a hot signal is also similar, then there is no reason for me to switch (price is now the same everywhere). For people looking to get either the M10 or the R09HR, it looks like a toss-up depending on what features are important to you.

If anyone has both the R09HR and M10, I would love to hear a line-in sample comparison. Also, if anyone can confirm which recorder can take a hotter signal (without distortion, digital attenuation, etc.), that would be very helpful.

[fmaderjr]

I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

I guess it's not a big issue in practice, since we all try to change levels between songs. I never noticed it with my R-09 either but noticed it the first time out with the HR.

You don't need to rely on anyone else to confirm. It's easy to test it for yourself. Just record your own voice with the internals, then check out the wave file in an audio editor by zooming in on the part where you changed levels. It happens with the externals also, so test for that as well if you want to be sure. I have the latest firmware in both my R-09 & R-09HR. I can't remember if the R-09 actually left gaps, but it did make noise. The HR definitely left tiny gaps. You have to zoom way in to see them, but you can definitely hear the problem.

[bgalizio]

I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

I guess it's not a big issue in practice, since we all try to change levels between songs. I never noticed it with my R-09 either but noticed it the first time out with the HR.

You don't need to rely on anyone else to confirm. It's easy to test it for yourself. Just record your own voice with the internals, then check out the wave file in an audio editor by zooming in on the part where you changed levels. It happens with the externals also, so test for that as well if you want to be sure. I have the latest firmware in both my R-09 & R-09HR. I can't remember if the R-09 actually left gaps, but it did make noise. The HR definitely left tiny gaps. You have to zoom way in to see them, but you can definitely hear the problem.

Understandable. I think we do need it confirmed, though, as I have never seen an issue with my recordings.

[page]

I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

I guess it's not a big issue in practice, since we all try to change levels between songs. I never noticed it with my R-09 either but noticed it the first time out with the HR.

You don't need to rely on anyone else to confirm. It's easy to test it for yourself. Just record your own voice with the internals, then check out the wave file in an audio editor by zooming in on the part where you changed levels. It happens with the externals also, so test for that as well if you want to be sure. I have the latest firmware in both my R-09 & R-09HR. I can't remember if the R-09 actually left gaps, but it did make noise. The HR definitely left tiny gaps. You have to zoom way in to see them, but you can definitely hear the problem.

Understandable. I think we do need it confirmed, though, as I have never seen an issue with my recordings.

I think his point is just that anyone with a unit can verify it, it's not like you need load resistors or something out of the ordinary. You could send a loud sign wave and adjust the volume on it so that you have constant signal. Generate one in Audacity and send it out to the recorder.

The R-44 does it as well (someone reported it in the second thread for that recorder), I wonder if they are using similar components.

[fmaderjr]

I think his point is just that anyone with a unit can verify it, it's not like you need load resistors or something out of the ordinary.

Correct! Plus I wouldn't want to ask someone else to do it for me when it was so easy to test for it myself and be able to see & hear the results first hand.

Obviously not an issue at all for someone who leaves the recorder at unity gain and changes levels with a preamp, as I usually do. However, the first time I used my HR, I was doing acoustic and wanted a bit more gain the my littlebox could provide. So I goosed up the levels during the piano into and that's how I noticed the issue. Normally I'd have waited until the first song was done to change levels, but I had a backup recorder running and just went ahead with the change.

[bgalizio]

I think his point is just that anyone with a unit can verify it, it's not like you need load resistors or something out of the ordinary.

Correct! Plus I wouldn't want to ask someone else to do it for me when it was so easy to test for it myself and be able to see & hear the results first hand.

Obviously not an issue at all for someone who leaves the recorder at unity gain and changes levels with a preamp, as I usually do. However, the first time I used my HR, I was doing acoustic and wanted a bit more gain the my littlebox could provide. So I goosed up the levels during the piano into and that's how I noticed the issue. Normally I'd have waited until the first song was done to change levels, but I had a backup recorder running and just went ahead with the change.

I understand. My point is that it isn't a problem for me. I have not seen this issue. I have also not heard of it until this thread. So, I wanted to know if it is a widespread problem, or unique to your unit/firmware/whatever. If other people test or claim one way or another, we will see.

[earmonger]

For what it's worth, I have an R09 and just tried raising and lowering the input volume with white noise (city traffic) and heard no clicks or pops.

[fmaderjr]

I stand corrected as to the R-09. I just tested again and couldn't hear a problem. The manual warns of a problem, but if there is one, it seems to be negligible.

The R-09HR, however, sounds awful where you are changing the gain. You can just record your voice with the built ins and hear how bad it sounds. Not a problem in practice ffor me, though, as I usually change gain with a pre and leave the HR at unity gain.

[pool]

The point is simple. People keep using blanket terms when in truth everyone is indicating different situations.

The R-09 makes pops when adjusting levels. Its on the manual and you can hear it if you record a bit of quite music or amient and push up levels. I owned an r-09. Usually it is negligagle because usually one is recording something not dead air. If one is recording ambient noises and normalizing the pops can be heard. So it depends on what youre doing with it. So a blanket phrases like "its negligable"  or its not there are not appropriate.

The R-09HR apparently produces something similar. I havnt owned one.

The M10 which is the subject of this thread produces no digi noise BUT
1) you're bound to produce handling noise. Its manual adjustment. If you manage to do it without noise, then you are a spirit. The hollow grey case around the screen makes a loud abrasive noise by itself when you touch it. A strip of thin smooth adhesive tape reduced the noise by 80%.

2) the knob itself on the inside touches against the level adjustment knob cover on the inside. That causes a swoshing noise half an inch from the mic. Dont say its not there or it "negligable" or "keep levels the same" or "use a pre" or "10 feet away from the stacks wil cover it".  i know.. we all know. Specifically in quite recordings when one requires to adjust, it can be heard.  I am specifically writing about quite performances. I wish they didnt put that cover on the knob. A solution i see is to open the m10 and file beneath the arch cover beneath the knob or cut off that arch altogether. there simply isnt space to handle the knob. Its logic. everone owned a radio some time or another. knobs are usually fre to rotate not enclosed snuggly in casing especially if they are 1/2" from the mics.

[fmaderjr]

No use arguing. I do hear it on ambient recordings now, but I never make them so never think in that direction.

By the way, the HR produces a much worse noise than the R-09. It sounds awful no matter what you're recording.