Topic: Newbie seeking advice - audience taping in small restaurant

[Rosettastoned729]

Hi tapers,

I'm brand new here so I apologize in advance if I'm doing anything wrong.

Anyway, I just recently bought a Zoom h2n (it arrived on the last day of June and before then I had no idea what went into taping a show, if that's any indication) as a spur of the moment kind of thing. Thus, I'm very new at taping, having only made 5 tapes of local bands, all coming out from listenable to outstanding to my ears.

Anyway, I was going to tape a local band that I've already taped a couple times (with permission, so long as I don't distribute anything), but in a new and possibly more challenging environment. A lot of the shows I attend are of local bands and in similar restaurant environments, so I had a couple questions, some of which are general and maybe could help others looking to tape in small environments as well and some of which are specific to the venue which I plan on taping at.

1) When taping in any small restaurant environment, is there a definitive way to avoid the talk from the waitress/waiter being picked up on the recorder that doesn't involve a SBD feed? I taped a blues-rock band in a much bigger restaurant than the one I'm planning on taping in, where I had more room to spread out, and used the lo-cut filter while having my recorder set up on a small monopod positioned on a chair facing the band (as opposed to on the table). This worked for a larger restaurant environment but I'm talking about a restaurant or bar that most would label as a "dive" (see attachment). Of course there are other "dives" out there too - many of which, including this one, have great food and host some amazing musical performances and/or open-jams which should definitely be documented in my opinion - I'm kind of wondering if it's even worth bothering in this kind of place though. Another musician who is a friend of the band wanted me to record though, or at least the songs he plays on, and I'd love to succeed in doing so.
2) I guess my next question is more of a specific positioning question for this venue, but based on the attached photo, and the knowledge that the band sets up in the far right corner from where the photo was taken (where the "Bud Light" banner is, guitarist closest to the street, bassist in closest to the restaurant, and drummer in the middle - the music is jazz and more specifically heavy jazz/blues-rock fusion, a la Larry Coryell), where would people recommend I position myself? Granted, this photo seems to be taken when they didn't do their concerts outside and had a different seating arrangement, but I was thinking somewhere on the guitarist's "side" of the venue, because the bass is very "thunderous" and could easily cause distortion with the sensitive internal mics of the h2n (I've gotten a good final output with no clipping when I taped them on the bassist's side with the gain knob set between 2 and 3, being probably 10 feet away at the least, but in this venue it'll be tougher to get that kind of "breathing room"), but was looking for more experienced taper's opinions based on the details I've provided and the photo.
3) What gain settings would folks recommend I use if kind of in the "middle" of the space pictured, with the band playing in the area described above? Do folks think my usual of "between 2 and 3" on the gain knob would be appropriate? Maybe a bit too specific of a question, but I'm just curious.

Thanks in advance for any and all help and I apologize for the verbosity of this post,

- Rosettastoned729

[Marshall7]

If the waiter or waitress, or anyone else for that matter, talks close enough to your mics to be heard there really isn't anything that can be done about it.

You really need to invest in some external mics and a preamp.  Check out the Church Audio offers in the retail section as a fairly low cost starting point.

[Gutbucket]

Regardless of the mics or recorder used, it's primarily about finding the optimal recording location.  Try as best you can to get the mics in some position were the sound from the performer(s) is good and clear and balanced, yet at the same time getting as much distance as you can between the mics and the servers and talkers in the audience.  Be creative in your thinking and you can find unusual places to put a compact rig like yours which can be big advabtage in little places like this. 

Here's a thought- how about making a loop of cord attached to the recorder and placing the recorder on top of one of the umbrellas, held in place by the loop thrown over the top point of the umbrella to keep it from sliding off.

[Rosettastoned729]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. It's much appreciated.

As I get more serious about taping and maybe tape some touring acts as well, the external mics suggestion makes sense. As for now, I'm enjoying the output I get from the internals and unfortunately cannot afford them.

Here's a thought- how about making a loop of cord attached to the recorder and placing the recorder on top of one of the umbrellas, held in place by the loop thrown over the top point of the umbrella to keep it from sliding off.

I was thinking over on the tarp on the far left from where the camera is, closest to the restaurant - that's about as creative as I could get for this location and would certainly lead to an excess of crowd noise on the final output. But if I can reach the top of the umbrella, this makes a lot more sense. The recorder itself has nowhere I can see to attach such a loop to but my monopod already has such a loop attached to it anyways. Thank you once again for the advice, as this is just the kind of thing I was looking for.

[page]

The optimum location for recording this sort of stuff is an equilateral triangle where two of the points are the PA stacks you want to record and the third point is your gear. You want to have an angle of just less than 60 degrees between the two points (so, setup just behind that third point).

For odd position of mics, I like one of these; http://joby.com/gorillapod
check and see if the zoom has a female screw spot and then just get an adaptor to mate the joby to the recorder. That should give you some more options. Like many things involving taping, rewards go to those who are creative and handy.

[Gutbucket]

The optimum location for recording this sort of stuff is an equilateral triangle where two of the points are the PA stacks you want to record and the third point is your gear. You want to have an angle of just less than 60 degrees between the two points (so, setup just behind that third point)

To clarify that, and I think he will agree on this, what Page is suggesting as an optimal location is an excellent starting point, which often is best, but not always.  There are plenty of regular exceptions both ways to that- ideal situations where the best location is elsewhere than the point of an equilaleral triangle (like centered but closer), and perhaps more often- less than ideal situations where the best location might be somewhere unexpected, like off to one side, or even behind the band or whatever.  In small setups like this the PA speakers may not be producing a balanced output between them, or pointed correctly, or too far apart, or  have what you want coming through them or whatever, to make the equilateral triangle placement work.  In addition, even if that would be the best spot, it may not be optimal for any number of other reasons: middle of a walkay, noisy bar or trashcan in close proximity with cash registers or constantly clinking bottles, noisy patrons or waitstaff frequenting that location, obnoxious cooks cursing through a doorway directly off to one side and audible primarily from that location, etc.

Like any engineering exercise, the optimal solution is the best compromise you can find given all the constraints you are dealing with.  Although there are some basic 'good idea' starting points that should be the basis of how you go about figuring out what the actual 'best location' for the mics may be, the constraints are going to be different in every situation.  Especially so small resurants, clubs and bars where the performance space and PA are often setup haphazardly, driven by things other than optimal sound for tapers.

[Rosettastoned729]

Again, thanks for all the advice everyone. I really appreciate it.

I couldn't reach the top of the umbrellas so I just wound up taping with the recorder sitting on a chair - I sat at the table closest to the band, in front of the bassist (the recorder's mics were "pointed" probably somewhere in between the bassist and drummer, with the guitarist being on the other side) and set the gain knob to about 2.

Anyway, I was worried being so close to the band would effect the way the output sounded, but in quickly skimming the recording everything seems to sound "up to par" with what I was looking for.

The only thing I dislike is that there are motorcyclists who drove by at a couple of moments, and it came close to disrupting/disturbing the band's performance so naturally it's on the recording and was out of anyone's control.

Also, I probably could've turned down even lower being that close to the band and not yet having invested in external mics and a battery box. The output sounds great to my ears - that is, it does not sound like there is any distortion on the recording. However, sections of the waveform appear clipped in Audacity so it's certainly not an audiophile's ideal recording by any means.

I guess I'll learn more with experience.

[page]

The optimum location for recording this sort of stuff is an equilateral triangle where two of the points are the PA stacks you want to record and the third point is your gear. You want to have an angle of just less than 60 degrees between the two points (so, setup just behind that third point)

To clarify that, and I think he will agree on this, what Page is suggesting as an optimal location is an excellent starting point, which often is best, but not always.  There are plenty of regular exceptions both ways to that. <snip>

Like any engineering exercise, the optimal solution is the best compromise you can find given all the constraints you are dealing with.

yep. I'll be the first to admit that I've disobeyed that rule on a somewhat regular basis for stretchs of time depending on what I'm taping. Specifically when taping on stage or at the front lip of the stage (or any environment as he notes which you're getting more sound from the stage than from the PAs), that sort of throws out the triangle guideline and you're up to doing as he mentions in finding the best sonic compromise to the sounds that you're equipment will be receiving.

But for starting out with taping in the audience though, it's a handy rule of thumb to keep in mind.

I guess I'll learn more with experience.

This.

I've been here for 10 years (this month even, w00t w00t), I still learn something new and improve my A game almost every outting. Take copious notes, learn to listen to what sounds are and where they are coming from. It just takes time and learning. Best of luck.