Topic: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.

[StarkRavingCalm]

With a band that I have SBD access to, I usually will record both SBD and use an external mic and dual record with the DR-2D and then mix them in post.

But a few times this year due to space constraints, the SBD has been on the side of the stage.
One time was in a really small area and I used binaurals with decent results.
This past weekend, the board was actually on the platform with the band.
I did not use external mics but was still in dual mode on the recorder so the internal mics picked it up.
Internal mic recording actually came out decent and should sound quite nice mixed in with the SBD feed.


What creative methods have other people used in these situations?

Does anyone have a go-to mic just for this?

[cybergaloot]

If it were me, I'd invest in cables to patch into the soundboard that are long enough to get to a convenient place offstage and run split omnis at the stage lip. The mics may require a longer cable as well depending on what gear you have. If you can get your mics up about the height of the top of the kick drum it sounds better.

[StarkRavingCalm]

This is not possible at these particular shows.
My only alternative is if they have the lighting guy in the crowd and I pick up a second recorder to run the mics.
But in the cases where they are both on the side, like this past weekend, I would only have the option of one recorder.

[runonce]

Cant you put your recorder on the stage, use the built in mics - and run the soundboard signal to it via long cables?

Sort of limits your access to the recorder for level changes though...

[StarkRavingCalm]

So, this configuration is OK on the stage?
Is there a better option than the built-in mics?


What if there is a condition where it is not feasible to have recorder on the stage?

[Gutbucket]

Starting with the SBD and adding a pair of mics to improve that it is more or less the opposite approach to the more standard practice around here of starting with a well optimized AUD and adding SBD for clarity.   So perhaps it's not that surprising that very different mic locations and configurations can work or actually be called for.

I attended a friend's wedding in Santa Cruz a couple months ago and ended up being asked to run sound for his band performing in a big redwood barn at a retreat in the mountains.  Soundboard was located off to one side of the band due to the length of cables.  I had brought a small rig to record their performance, but the recording immediately became of secondary importance.  Once we got them all set up and soundchecked, I quickly made an aux bus SBD mix and recorded that to a DR2d along with two dpa 4060 omnis boundary mounted to adjacent sides of a huge redwood beam against side the wall behind me- one side facing directly towards band, the other along the wall into the audience side of the room.  Chose a mic position that was close, easily accessable, within the length of patch cable and out of the way.  Checked levels and just let it run, hands full with lots of open mics and acoustic instruments during the performance.  I didn’t worry about it too much and

When I got home the next week and transferred the files, I realized I had neglected to reset the recorder to write wave files again after letting my nephew record some things as 128bit mp3 files a couple days before the wedding.  Between the compromised mic placement and the low rate mp3 format I didn't expect much, but the combination of the SBD and AUD actually worked out quite nicely.  Neither alone is great, but the combination of them work very well, exactly as I hoped it would.  Still need to mix it down for them, maybe this week. 

If you have a SBD feed, the requirements of what you need from a pair of AUD mics is relaxed.  You can get away with a far less than ideal placement since you really just need the room ambience, audience reaction, and any musical information that isn't in the SBD feed.  In my situation I had all instrumentation and vocals in the feed through the board, so I just needed good room ambience, depth and audience reaction from the AUD mics behind me on the column to glue it all together and put everything in place.

Similarly, when making a multitrack recording off the board, its common practice to use two very wide-spaced cardioids, each at opposite, far edges of the stage pointing out into the room as a way of picking up audience reaction and room ambience while limiting pickup of the sound on stage. 

The other (opposite) way to go about it is to treat it as a more typical AUD + SBD and try to optimize the AUD as if there would be no SBD available.  Which means getting the mics arranged on stage or at the stage lip in a typical stereo configuration like the others have described here.

While somewhat opposite approaches, both can work.  It somewhat depends on the music, how good the SBD feed sounds, and what you can get away with doing in a practical sense.

[StarkRavingCalm]

Thanks everyone.

While I do think we may be veering off-topic just slightly, you bring up some interesting points.


So...

On Topic:

Are you saying that pointing mics, specifically cardioids, away from the band, at the edge of the stage, to get sound of the room, etc... is the best approach in this situation?
Would binaurals be a good option as well?
I would assume the same for the instance where the board was on-stage as well?


Off Topic:

I seem to be reading from your post Gutbucket that this is preferred even IF the board is placed in the audience and facing the stage.


Or should it be two different approaches:

Board on Side Of Stage:
SBD + AUD pointed AWAY from band

Board in Audience, set back:
SBD + AUD facing TOWARDS band



Taping rock shows in small clubs was relatively easy. But these festivals where it is not open taping is quite challenging.

[Gutbucket]

As far as making a recording is concerned, sound wise I don't see how it matters much where the soundboard is physically located.  Could be a pragmatic, physical layout thing like the availability of running your mic feeds through the snake or something I suppose.

What I'm pointing out is that if you are recording the SBD as well as a separate pair of microphones, there are two very different basic approaches to using those microphones.  Beyond that there are many different specific ways to set them up. 

I can't say which is better in a general sense, or specify which variations are more likely to work without knowing each situation.  It all depends on the situation.

As for those basic differences in approach- one way is to think of the mics as the main source, positioning and arranging them to get the best recording you could make with the mics alone.  Then using the SBD as a nice 'extra' to improve that starting point, mostly by providing up-front clarity and definition.  In that case the AUD is primary and the SBD supports it.  The AUD mics could be back in the room, or setup on stage or at the lip, basically all the ways we normally think of setting a single pair of microphones.

The other is to assume the SBD as the main source, or at least a primary part of your recording if not capable of standing entirely on it's own.  In that case the basic elements provided by the microphone pair may be quite different.  The mic pair is not designed to 'stand alone' without the SBD, but is instead arranged specifically to support and integrate with the SBD.  In my previous example and maybe in yours using the DR2d internal mics, the microphone recording isn't intended to stand on it's own.  It might contain little more than reverberation and crowd cheering, but that might be exactly what you need to improve the SBD feed. And because of that difference in approach, it may actually be best to limit the direct on-stage sound picked up by those mics.  The SBD will providing that and you gain flexibility in setting the mix ratio by being able to bring up just the other stuff that isn't in the SBD. In that case pointing the microphones away from the band instead of towards the band might be a better option.  But you only find out by trying things.

More on some specifics later..

[Gutbucket]

OK, specifics-

Re-reading your post I understand that you have the recorder located at the board to keep the SBD wire run short and easy.   So when the board is out in the room you set the recorder there, use the internal mics and point it at the band.  You could substitute external mics if you wanted to, which would be located in about the same place, but eitherway at that point a question about pointing the mics arises:

Would I want to set up the mics the same way regardless of the SBD feed?  In other words, would I use a different configuration if I know I have a good SBD feed or would I set them up the same way if I did not?

One answer is to set them up the same, as if there were no SBD recording.  In that case I might choose a mic pattern and configuration that first of all maximizes the direct arrival sound for best clarity and has solid imaging across the 'soundstage'.  Lets say I use supercardioids and Point At Stacks to get the clearest sound from my recording position back by the board.  Maybe it's somewhat center-heavy and not very enveloping but that's better than echoy and over-wide with a hole in the middle.  If the SBD doesn’t work out that might be the best ‘mics-only’ option.

However, since I know I’ll have a SBD recording, I can change my microphone configuration to something that might work better with the SBD, but not as good on its own.  I don’t need to concern myself with maximizing the direct clarity above all other microphone setup variables because I get most if not all of that from the SBD.  So for example I might switch to cardioids and choose a wider angle or spacing or both, to get a better sense of the room depth and audience envelopment from the mics.  I don’t have to worry about direct clarity or a hole in the middle of the playback image since the SBD compensates for both of those things.  That’s a “sum is better than the individual components” approach, maximizing the potential for a better recording, but taking more of a risk if one part of it doesn’t work out.  A relatively common version of that is using rather wide spaced omnis at either corner of the SBD cage in combination with a SBD feed for an outdoor festival.  The omnis might be over-wide alone, but the SBD fills the middle nicely and the extra width ends up making things better.  If you are only using the internal mics back there, you’d probably just point them at the stage.

[Gutbucket]

When the board is at the side of the stage you hook things up the same way, and the question again is, “how do I point the recorder” or “how do I arrange and point my external microphone(s)”

The answers are again variations on the same line of thought as before, but you might choose differently-

You can choose the option that would provide the best ‘mics only’ recording from that location or one which may be riskier but might work better when combined with the SBD.  If choosing the best mics only location, you will probably point the recorder or mics at the band, either from the side SBD location, or a potentially better spot like the stagelip at the center of the stage if the situation and your cables allow you to do that.

Or you might plan on relying on the sum of both recordings which relaxes the constraint to get good clear direct sound from the band in the microphone recording above all else, allowing you to get a better recording of the things the mics pick up but the SBD doesn’t.  That might be the on-stage acoustic sound (in which case you may leave the recorder or mics at stagelip facing the band) or maximizing the audience and room sound.  In that case you might point your recorder the other way, like the spaced cardioids pointing into the audience at either edge of the stage as described previously.. or tape your binaural omnis to the front wall of the stage, spaced apart and facing out into the room and away from the band, maximally isolated from the direct sound by the stage wall and lip.

I can’t tell you which will be better. It depends on the situation, your experience and expertise, and the practicalities of cables and allowable mic and recorder placement.

[Gutbucket]

I'll just add this analogy and then stop blathering and STFU. 

A similar set of choices parallels the evolution of my surround recording techniques. I went from using known good 2-channel stereo microphone setups with other mics added on to produce multichannel surround recordings (which was safest since I could always revert to 2-channel stereo if the other stuff didn’t work) to abandoning the safe 2-channel stereo starting point setups that rely on the sum of all the mics working in combination.

One example of many- I used to tape small omni mics to the back wall of the room, spaced widely, as surround channel mics.  Those were usually recorded to their own recorder, an R-09 or DR2d and sync’d to the front three channels later.  I later switched to mounting them the same way, but on the short wall under the stage facing away from the band, for a few reasons.  Some were simply practical- I could keep all my gear together, I could record all channels onto one DR680 and not have to sync things later.  But others, and the reason I bring this up, were simply about getting the best overall combined sound.  I found that what was optimal for a left/right surround pair was not the same as what was optimal as the best sounding stereo pair from the same location.  The boundary mounted omnis on the back wall actually got way too much nice clear direct sound to be optimal surrounds.  They actually sounded nice and clear and present and would have been acceptable alone as a stereo recording.  And although the band sounds dull and distant when listening in isolation to the same two mics placed under the stage facing away and into the room, that configuration works better when used as a surround pair for a few reasons.  It lets me bring up the level of the surrounds more to get the room ambience, the bloom, and the audience reaction I want from them, without messing with the image up front.  The timing between mics worked better too.

Pointing the mics or recorder away from the band is sort of like that.  If you understand why you might want to do it and think it worthwhile, it’s a risk you may choose to take.   I placed the mics on that beam at the wedding gig with the intent of recording the room and audience first and foremost with the mics, and not the band.  I knew the band sound wasn’t optimal from where I could place the mics anyway, so getting something which would maximally improve the SBD recording was the best bet. 

But even if this all makes sense reading it here, you need to try it out yourself to get a good understanding of what’s going on and when to make that determination.

[StarkRavingCalm]

Ok, so I was going to reply with a lengthy reply as I thought you were taking me down a "general guide-lines" path but in re-reading your posts, you I believe you are answering my posts.

Thank you for the insight.

The situations I mention, it is not open taping but I am friends with the band so they allow it for me.
In other words, I don't get to set up a stand and put it anywhere I want, but they allow me to use their equipment.

I was fully prepared to try out the new Oktava 319s I just bought but when I saw where the board was I decided against it.
I normally use external mics with the unit, the internal being used was a fortunate accident since I did not switch out of DualMode.



So given that I am somewhat limited in my configuration as they are not "taper-friendly", how should I best handle these situations?

Is there a "go-to" mic others have used in these situations?

[Gutbucket]

So given that I am somewhat limited in my configuration as they are not "taper-friendly", how should I best handle these situations?

That's a whole different set of constraints, depends on the situation.  No reason not to try the Oktava off to the side simply as a substitute for the internal mics as long as that's cool.  More an issue of what's allowed than the position of the board, recorder and mic.

Is there a "go-to" mic others have used in these situations?

Not really.  Maybe small omnis which can be boundary mounted by taping them against the side wall or something else like that.  Besides being nearly invisible, the boundary mounting technique that can do some pretty amazing things from unexpected and less than normally ideal locations, IME.  Far more so than simply choosing a regular microphone pattern or make.

[StarkRavingCalm]

Agreed.

Just to be clear, I don't normally use the internal mics. Prior the purchase of the Oktava's , it was CSB or CSC.

So, considering the constraints, and in a situation where it is on the side, would you recommend:
Stage lip pointed at the band
or
pointed out at the audience to get the sound of the room?

[F.O.Bean]

I know the convenience factor of running a SBD and AUD recording straight into the dr2d is nice and all, but I don't think it would be worth it getting a SBD patch AND recording with AUD mics at the side of, or on the stage is even worth it. Just pick up another dr2d and get a SBD patch wherever the SBD may be, and use the second dr2d with your AUD mics and like someone else suggested, if recording ONLY on the side of, or on the stage is all you can do, invest in LONG cables. then you could patch the SBD at the side of the stage, and run long cables to DFC on the stage and run an onstage/SBD matrix