Topic: Hey, live music mic helping please - kinda urgent!

[andrew00]

Hi,

So I wrote this, my first post, already, but turns out the forum logged me out whilst I was typing and I lost it. Hurrah! The reason I'm posting is because I am about to film some awards w/ live bands playing on Sat, and its suddenly been dropped on me to also film the audio, hence my degree of panic.

My current equip is - Zoom H4
Mics - Sony ECM-673, Rode NTG2, Shure SM58, M-audio 10db attenuator micro pad (3.5 inch jack)
Also - I have 5x AT ATR35S lapel mics, not that they're useful in this sense!

My plan is to record the audio with the Zoom at 16bit, 48 khz and to use the desk feed as my main source. I am aware that using the desk feed negates the internal mics on the Zoom. I am also aware that recording the desk feed is imperfect because the mix is balanced for the room, not a 'studio' recording. As such the drums might be low b/c they are so loud naturally in the room.

It is for this reason that I believe I will need a room feed from an external mic. I also believe the mics I already have, listed above, will not be good enough to record a high quality feed as they are more dialogue style mics.

I've been looking at loads the last few hours and am stumped. Someone recommended the Rode NT4 to me, which seems alright, but it's all pretty much gibberish to me. I'm prepared to spend to buy a new mic because I'll get the money back through the extra work, but I don't want to be spending billions. What mic would you recommend?

I also am stumped as to where to place this mic. Alas I feel that, with the Zoom needing to be near the desk, I don't really have much choice. I'd taken some pics of the venue a while back on my phone, and this is what it will look like (though hopefully with more people in!):

1 -
2 -
3 -
4 -

The desk is under the big Endsleigh sign, which isn't a great place for it!

I'm seeing the workflow with the Zoom H4 as follows:

- Plug H4 into wall socket, turn on, set to external mics, plug in XLR from desk, plug in XLR from external mic.
- Set sensitivity to Low to avoid overloading preamps
- Turn on low cut. Maybe turn on compressor or limiter? Turn on phantom power
- Set levels to a level that isn't too loud
- Press record and pretty no one explodes

To summary - I'm looking to know if my current mics are ok, or if I need to purchase a mic to record the live music room, which I'm prepared to do but need to do asap to get it next day b/c of time pressures. I am also curious where best to place the mic.

Thanks so much!

[crackmc]

i'm not sure if i understand correctly - you're planning on having one channel run straight through the FOH console (desk) and one channel picking up the external mic? if so, i'd expect a very odd-sounding stereo mix. if the H4 will allow you to record two separate mono files (one from the FOH console, and one from the external mic), you may be able to invert them in post, and then create a 'fake' stereo image with each of these channels. then, you could combine the resulting stereo files into a 'matrix' - but this depends on what kind of DAW you'll be working with (if you'll be working with one at all).

also: you don't want to supply phantom power to the XLR that is coming out of the FOH console (i'm not sure if you can disable phantom power to just one channel w/ the H4, since i'm completely unfamiliar with that piece of equipment). 

if the H4 can only record a stereo file using the two XLR inputs (as opposed to two separate mono files), you may be forced to choose between the FOH feed and external mics (most people here would insist that a pair is the way to go, rather than a single mic). the phantom power issue might force you to make this decision as well.


note: the info i gave above may certainly be debunked by a wiser person that i, so don't take my word as gospel by any means. there are many people on this site who are much more creative/resourseful than i am.


and, about the mics you have - the Sony & Rode mics are shotguns, which would not be the best mics to use in this situation. the SM58 is a stage mic that isn't optimal for audience recording, but it's definitely the best option that you have in your current arsenal. and, the SM58 is also pretty inexpensive, so it wouldn't break your piggy bank if you had to buy another to complete a pair. in fact, the production crew may even have an extra SM58 that you can use...they're the phillips-head screwdriver of any audio crew's gearbag - most crews have a few extras lying around.

[andrew00]

Heh Aye it is a lot of info, I'm confused myself!

What I meant was as you said, creating a mono mix from combining the sources together, rather than desk is left and external is right for example.

[hummat]

Heh Aye it is a lot of info, I'm confused myself!

What I meant was as you said, creating a mono mix from combining the sources together, rather than desk is left and external is right for example.

Triple-check to see if you can supply phantom power to only one channel (and I would bet the H4 won't let you), if a mistake is made here, it is my understanding that your could fry the soundboard!!!

-jay

[indietaperwloo]

Just run a straight ambient recording without the soundboard because all a soundboard mix is good for IMO is bringing up the vocals.  As far as all-in-one stereo mics go I would probably go with something like an NT4.  You might have to add a bit of treble to it because a lot of people complain that the NT4 is too "dark" sounding.  I'd also use the battery on the NT4 as well as opposed to running phantom power from the H4 because I'd imagine you'd run out of battery power real quick running phantom power.  I'd maybe rent it first to try it out.  Most audio stores would probably rent you one at a fairly reasonable price.  Plus, I'd get a better recorder like an Edirol R-9 or a used HiMD deck because I hate how the preamps sound on the H4 - too noisy, especially with phantom power running.  It sounds almost as bad my cheap little Behringer mixer (good thing I recently upgraded to a Mackie  )
That's just my two bits anyways.

[andrew00]

Right so yes on the NT4, so I'll get one of them tomorrow and record the ambient sound with that.

I don't think my budget will stretch to get 2 so I think I might as well record the desk feed anyway, but don't turn phantom power on either b/c I could fry the desk!

Long term - replace H4, but not viable in short term heh.

[andrew00]

So I've been doing more research and it looks like the NT4 comes with a dual XLR outputs, if that's the technical term, in that it comes with a cable that has two inputs, one for each of the capsules, to record true stereo sound.

In other words, if I want to take advantage of this split stereo recording then by definition I can't plug both the mic and desk into the Zoom at the same time.

Ergo, would you recommend the following setup as an alternative?

1) Zoom H4 at the back of the room recording using the INTERNAL mics

2) My camera, Sony EX1, set around the middle of the room with the NT4 mounted on the top, with the camera carefully setup to include it's inbuilt attenuators.

This would provide, effectively, 2x stereo sources, one from the Zoom, one from the camera/NT4 combo.

It would necessitate not using the desk feed, but as indietaperwloo observed, the desk can be a bit rubbish.

What do you think?

[crackmc]

So I've been doing more research and it looks like the NT4 comes with a dual XLR outputs, if that's the technical term, in that it comes with a cable that has two inputs, one for each of the capsules, to record true stereo sound.

In other words, if I want to take advantage of this split stereo recording then by definition I can't plug both the mic and desk into the Zoom at the same time.

Ergo, would you recommend the following setup as an alternative?

1) Zoom H4 at the back of the room recording using the INTERNAL mics

2) My camera, Sony EX1, set around the middle of the room with the NT4 mounted on the top, with the camera carefully setup to include it's inbuilt attenuators.

This would provide, effectively, 2x stereo sources, one from the Zoom, one from the camera/NT4 combo.

It would necessitate not using the desk feed, but as indietaperwloo observed, the desk can be a bit rubbish.

What do you think?

i fucking love Brit slang. much cooler than ours.

but i digress.

first: abandoning the 'desk' idea is a good decision...especially in a small room like that one. the sound will definitely be better from inside the room.

if you'll be in the middle of the room with the Sony cam, i'd suggest recording the audio from there as well. ideally, you want to be as far as possible from a rear wall (or balcony overhang)...sound bounces off of walls and bounces around semi-enclosed spaces (like the space beneath a balcony), and this can negatively affect the recording. in my experience, i've noticed that when i play back a recording from a location like this, the mics often pick up much more of these reverberated sound waves than my ears did during the actual performance...the ears are often much more forgiving than the mics.

what are your other mic options for the Sony cam? the reason i ask is this: i think you'll get a much better recording using the H4 and NT4 together, and using one of the other mics for the camera - even if your only camera option is the Sony/Rode shotguns. if your goal is to capture the best audio as well as the best video, i think this is the best option. of all the mics you have, i'm thinking that the weakest ones will be the H4's internal mics. .

don't forget - we're a bunch of over-enthusiastic audio nerds here at TS.com, and most of us are obsessed with the perfect placement of everything - and sometimes we over-analyze our plans. you might end up using the NT4 & camera together and the H4 in the back of the room, and it may come out exactly the way you want it to.

[easy jim]

don't forget - we're a bunch of over-enthusiastic audio nerds here at TS.com, and most of us are obsessed with the perfect placement of everything - and sometimes we over-analyze our plans.

   Thanks for the new sig. material crack...more on topic: I agree completely with your substantive points.

[Church-Audio]

Heh Aye it is a lot of info, I'm confused myself!

What I meant was as you said, creating a mono mix from combining the sources together, rather than desk is left and external is right for example.

Triple-check to see if you can supply phantom power to only one channel (and I would bet the H4 won't let you), if a mistake is made here, it is my understanding that your could fry the soundboard!!!

-jay

Phantom must be off, But you should not fry a soundboard output with phantom unless you unbalanced the connections then you could short out the H4.

Chris

[Church-Audio]

Right so yes on the NT4, so I'll get one of them tomorrow and record the ambient sound with that.

I don't think my budget will stretch to get 2 so I think I might as well record the desk feed anyway, but don't turn phantom power on either b/c I could fry the desk!

Long term - replace H4, but not viable in short term heh.

You have to watch the NT4 its not a very sensitive mic and your preamps in the H4 SUCK so you will end up with a lot of noise.

Chris

[crackmc]

  Thanks for the new sig. material crack..

 

[Josephine]

Who's Ergo?

[crackmc]

Who's Ergo?

he's Groucho, Gummo, Zeppo, Harpo and Chico's lesser known little brother.

[andrew00]

Hehe you yanks say motherfu**er so much better!

So I've ordered the NT4, hurrah! Hopefully that will come tomorrow!

As for the Sony EX1 camera - the reason I thought about using that with the NT4 was because of this post - http://www.basspig.com/Sony%20PMW-EX1%20Line%20In%20Audio%20Test%202.htm - which implied the EX1 was 'dat quality' for sound recording. I thought perhaps using it's inbuilt attenuators would let me use the NT4 closer to the stage without overloading the pre amps?

However, I do appreciate the advice slating the H4's internal mics, and does suggest playing it w/ the NT4 somewhere (NO idea where!) would be a solid option, but naturally does then kill the ability to record the desk with the H4 as a 'back up'.

Hmm!