Topic: AKG 460 shootout - stock vs JW mods

[thekittycatt]

Both mic pairs are using CK1 caps (w/ adapter rings), Mogami XLRs, and going into an Oade Concert Mod R-44

I do not know if this is a fair comp.  I bought an OCM R-44 when they first came out.  Before I bought it I emailed Doug a few times.  I do not remember if Doug told me this or I read it here, but his mods on the R-44 do not put the same pre-amp on all four channels.  With the R-44 being so small, there is not enough room inside on channels 1,2 to put the same pre-amps that are on 3,4.  Someone might want to email Doug to see.

[acidjack]

Both mic pairs are using CK1 caps (w/ adapter rings), Mogami XLRs, and going into an Oade Concert Mod R-44

I do not know if this is a fair comp.  I bought an OCM R-44 when they first came out.  Before I bought it I emailed Doug a few times.  I do not remember if Doug told me this or I read it here, but his mods on the R-44 do not put the same pre-amp on all four channels.  With the R-44 being so small, there is not enough room inside on channels 1,2 to put the same pre-amps that are on 3,4.  Someone might want to email Doug to see.

Really?  I had not heard that before.

Doug's page certainly doesn't say so:

The Roland R44 Concert upgrade rebuilds the mic preamps using high speed, low noise and very low distortion op amps that dramatically improve fine detail and clarity. Components are selected by ear to optimize detail and imaging for recording amplified music. Improvements are also made to reduce the audible digital noise that contaminates the analog signal path with noise generated by the display.

[Todd R]

I can't recall specifically, but when I got my R44 Oade-modded, Doug included a page saying something on the order of what kitty said -- something that due to X (board layout maybe?) that though all 4 channels were modded, it was best to use channels 3-4 (maybe 1-2, can't recall) for lower level signals (e.g., mic in directly) and channels 1-2 for higher level signals like line-in from a soundboard or external mic preamp.

Sorry, not much help, I can't really recall the specifics much, but I think kittycatt is right. Best to contact Doug for details.

Acidjack -- did you buy your R44 used, or did you get it new from Doug?  Curious whether he is still providing this information to the latest folks getting mods.

[acidjack]

I can't recall specifically, but when I got my R44 Oade-modded, Doug included a page saying something on the order of what kitty said -- something that due to X (board layout maybe?) that though all 4 channels were modded, it was best to use channels 3-4 (maybe 1-2, can't recall) for lower level signals (e.g., mic in directly) and channels 1-2 for higher level signals like line-in from a soundboard or external mic preamp.

Sorry, not much help, I can't really recall the specifics much, but I think kittycatt is right. Best to contact Doug for details.

Acidjack -- did you buy your R44 used, or did you get it new from Doug?  Curious whether he is still providing this information to the latest folks getting mods.

I actually bought my R-44 new but not from Doug and had it modded after the fact.  I don't recall him giving me much if any info on the mod.

[cashandkerouac]

I can't recall specifically, but when I got my R44 Oade-modded, Doug included a page saying something on the order of what kitty said -- something that due to X (board layout maybe?) that though all 4 channels were modded, it was best to use channels 3-4 (maybe 1-2, can't recall) for lower level signals (e.g., mic in directly) and channels 1-2 for higher level signals like line-in from a soundboard or external mic preamp.

Sorry, not much help, I can't really recall the specifics much, but I think kittycatt is right. Best to contact Doug for details.

Acidjack -- did you buy your R44 used, or did you get it new from Doug?  Curious whether he is still providing this information to the latest folks getting mods.

I actually bought my R-44 new but not from Doug and had it modded after the fact.  I don't recall him giving me much if any info on the mod.

I bought my OCM R-44 directly from Doug and received no info saying the mod was different on any of the 4 channels.  I'm sure someone is going to email Doug to get clarification.  If not, I'll be happy to do so.

Regardless of the R-44 variable in this mic shoot out, the mics sound pretty darn close to my ears.  I'd be happy with either set of mics.

[acidjack]

I can't recall specifically, but when I got my R44 Oade-modded, Doug included a page saying something on the order of what kitty said -- something that due to X (board layout maybe?) that though all 4 channels were modded, it was best to use channels 3-4 (maybe 1-2, can't recall) for lower level signals (e.g., mic in directly) and channels 1-2 for higher level signals like line-in from a soundboard or external mic preamp.

Sorry, not much help, I can't really recall the specifics much, but I think kittycatt is right. Best to contact Doug for details.

Acidjack -- did you buy your R44 used, or did you get it new from Doug?  Curious whether he is still providing this information to the latest folks getting mods.

I actually bought my R-44 new but not from Doug and had it modded after the fact.  I don't recall him giving me much if any info on the mod.

I bought my OCM R-44 directly from Doug and received no info saying the mod was different on any of the 4 channels.  I'm sure someone is going to email Doug to get clarification.  If not, I'll be happy to do so.

Regardless of the R-44 variable in this mic shoot out, the mics sound pretty darn close to my ears.  I'd be happy with either set of mics.

Agree, but don't you think one set sounds a hair brighter?  Am I hearing things?

FWIW Doug's mod generally, according to him, brightens the sound a bit. 

[cashandkerouac]

I can't recall specifically, but when I got my R44 Oade-modded, Doug included a page saying something on the order of what kitty said -- something that due to X (board layout maybe?) that though all 4 channels were modded, it was best to use channels 3-4 (maybe 1-2, can't recall) for lower level signals (e.g., mic in directly) and channels 1-2 for higher level signals like line-in from a soundboard or external mic preamp.

Sorry, not much help, I can't really recall the specifics much, but I think kittycatt is right. Best to contact Doug for details.

Acidjack -- did you buy your R44 used, or did you get it new from Doug?  Curious whether he is still providing this information to the latest folks getting mods.

I actually bought my R-44 new but not from Doug and had it modded after the fact.  I don't recall him giving me much if any info on the mod.

I bought my OCM R-44 directly from Doug and received no info saying the mod was different on any of the 4 channels.  I'm sure someone is going to email Doug to get clarification.  If not, I'll be happy to do so.

Regardless of the R-44 variable in this mic shoot out, the mics sound pretty darn close to my ears.  I'd be happy with either set of mics.

Agree, but don't you think one set sounds a hair brighter?  Am I hearing things?

FWIW Doug's mod generally, according to him, brightens the sound a bit.

when the files were originally posted i thought i could hear some additional brightness in some samples versus the others.  when the samples were re-posted so that mic 1 and mic 2 switched every 15 seconds it became much harder to discern any difference.  and if there is a noticeable different it is very slight at best.  after almost 30 years of going to rock concerts i'm sure my ears aren't as good as they used to be. 

[newplanet7]

ok. It's been 12 days, what are the results?

EDIT: I also thought there was more of a difference in the first round of files.
The second, not really.

[Todd R]

I bought my OCM R-44 directly from Doug and received no info saying the mod was different on any of the 4 channels.  I'm sure someone is going to email Doug to get clarification.  If not, I'll be happy to do so.

Regardless of the R-44 variable in this mic shoot out, the mics sound pretty darn close to my ears.  I'd be happy with either set of mics.

To be clear, Doug did not say there was any difference in the mod, what I received with my mod indicated that the performance of the R44 was better in 2 of the channels (performance probably in terms of noise, though the note did not specify or I'm not remembering).  The mod was the same on all 4 channels, and the difference in performance if I understood it correctly at the time, would be the same whether the R44 was modded or not.  As I said above, I thought it had to do with the layout of the circuit board, allowing slightly more noise in one pair of channels than the other.

Referencing this might jog Doug's memory, but as far as I know the mod is the same in both sets of channels, so if you ask whether he used a different mod on the different channel pairs, my guess is he would say no.

[Gutbucket]

Doug did not say there was any difference in the mod, what I received with my mod indicated that the performance of the R44 was better in 2 of the channels (performance probably in terms of noise, though the note did not specify or I'm not remembering).  The mod was the same on all 4 channels, and the difference in performance if I understood it correctly at the time, would be the same whether the R44 was modded or not.  As I said above, I thought it had to do with the layout of the circuit board, allowing slightly more noise in one pair of channels than the other.

Though memory fades, and Doug didn't mention it when I bought mine, that was my understanding as well.  In use i've never noticed a difference between the channels of my OCM R44, but then I've never gone out of my way to look for one either.  Might have to do with the screen being closer to some circuitry or something, but that's just speculation.

I prefered mic 2 in the 15 sec switching file sets, and agree that the differences seemed a good bit more subtle than when listening to the individual files a week previous.  In the 15 sec sets, neither seemed as bright as I remember on pair being previously. Back then I prefered the 'less bright' sounding files, which also seemed to have cleaner low mids and better controlled bass.. now I'm unsure which pair that actually was and half-wonder if I'm mixing them up or changed preference!  I'll relisten to the originals tonight maybe.  The thought in my mind at at the time was that the less bright version addressed what I sometimes hear as an accentuated resonance in the high end of some AKGs.  Could be me propagandizing myself. The most telling thing here may be the subjectiveness of hearing subtle differences in the swtich comps files and more substantial ones in the the unswitched files!

[edit- FWIW I went back to listen again and prefer mic 2 in all samples- smoother highs, cleaner mids, more controlled bass.. whatever all that means]

[alpine85]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys! This thread has definitely taken an interesting turn...

I will email Doug and ask him about the R-44 thing... I bought my mod directly from him (2 years ago, I think?) and don't recall him saying anything about differences between 1/2 and 3/4.  IIRC, he didn't send any info or anything at all except the manual and original packaging.

As far as the results go, I don't want to say anything yet.  I'd like to get a few more votes and/or comments in from "blind" testers before I spill the beans.  In fact, I'm going to post something in the AKG team thread in case anyone over there hasn't seen this yet.   I should have done that in the first place.  I also should have added 2 more options to the poll:   "I like A, but have no idea if it's the mod" and "I like B, but have no idea..."   

I guess I was originally targeting this towards people who were either users of these mics or very familiar with their sound, and thought folks might have fun guessing.

I will say this...

The comps have sort of reinforced my preconceptions I had, but to a much lesser extent than what I thought would happen.   If that makes any sense at all ; )

I had a quote somewhere from Jim Williams, explaining exactly what he thought he had accomplished with the mod sound-wise, but I can't seem to find it in my files anywhere. 

Of course, he's no longer doing mic mods, but I did find this from a Wayback machine search of his web site:

AUDIO UPGRADES PRICE LIST:
typical modifications include replace op-amps, E.Q. caps, coupling caps, direct-couple audio path, install feedback caps and more.
(snip)
AKG 460B $175.00

The stock has a transformer, the mod does not.

[alpine85]

Oh - and like a lot of you guys, I was really surprised at how similar they sounded, ESPECIALLY on the 15-second "switch" files

[acidjack]

Oh - and like a lot of you guys, I was really surprised at how similar they sounded, ESPECIALLY on the 15-second "switch" files

I'm not surprised that the differences are subtle - a lot of the differences folks seem to prize in gear are.  Especially when you're talking about recording a PA system, I think it's harder to spot differences in fairly similar items.

[hi and lo]

One thing that's not subtle... the price JW was charging for the mod!

[cashandkerouac]

after hearing the 15 second back to back samples i've lost interest in knowing which is the stock mic and which is the modded mic.  the mics sound so similar, it doesn't really matter which one is modded.  the mod seems like a lot of money for for not a lot of benefit (if any).  i think you should just spill the beans.  it's been 2 weeks.