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Author Topic: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions  (Read 11594 times)

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Offline chipoffools

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Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« on: September 26, 2015, 05:58:19 PM »
Hello! I've become interested in taping some local/regional shows recently, and I have some questions... I've spent a couple weeks browsing the forums, but it seems like there is a lot of information and I'd be extremely grateful for some input on building a starter rig. The shows that I'll be taping will be mostly bar/small club punk/psych shows; i.e. loud with mediocre sound systems and acoustics.

First of all, the Sony M10 seems to be generally regarded as a good starter recorder. My first question is that since it's only a 2 channel recorder, that means that I wouldn't be able to run 2 external mics plus a soundboard patch into it at the same time, correct? I haven't talked to the venues yet, but I know a couple of the people that typically run the boards and I would be surprised if the opportunity to run a patch wouldn't come up occasionally.

Secondly, where should I start with preamps/battery boxes? It seems like the CA9000/9100/9200 preamps are fairly common around here; are these still a good choice? Do I need a separate battery box if I'm running the mics through a preamp?

Finally, the AT853 cards and CA-14 mics are often suggested as good beginner mics... Is this the case, and if so, are there any mods that I should look for that make either of these options significantly better? If not, what should I be looking for in a decent mic/examples?

Thank you for reading/feedback! Please let me know if there is anything I can do to make things clearer... I'm pretty new to any audio engineering stuff, but I look forward to learning and would be more than happy to check out any resources you guys think would help. As far as budget goes, I'm obviously steering towards the lower/intro end, but I'd much rather spend a little more money to build a decent rig that can be improved on later than go for the cheapest possible components.

Offline mec111272

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2015, 12:26:21 PM »
The M10 is very well thought of around here, but it does not do 4-channels.  Some of the Tascams go up to four channels,  good units as well.

If you run the pre-amp you do not need the battery box.  The Church audio amps supply the correct power for the mics he sells.  As a note be sure to turn the plug in power off on the recorder if using the pre-amp.

Be sure to check the church audio threads,  on occasion he runs really sweet deals on complete packages.  The last one I saw was for the CAFS which are super tiny, like the size of a pencil eraser.  For ease of starting, a church rig comes ready to go, and there is substantial info on the board to get it running.  I have run my church gear in so many ways,  stealth, open, cards, omnis,  even 4-channel card/omni combo.

I will caution, and most can attest,  no matter what you start with if you enjoy the process you will have a ton of shit in no time.  Six pairs of mics, three pre-amps, clamps stands, cables......... 
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Offline thunderbolt

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 12:37:04 PM »
Welcome to this crazy hobby.  Glad to have you aboard.

Personally, I would get familiar with two-channel recording before venturing into four channel matrix-land.  Otherwise, you may end up feeling a lot of frustration.  Reading will help, but there is no substitute for "doing."  It's not just recording, either.  That's only half of it.  You'll need to learn how to use a Digital Audio Workstation, aka DAW, aka any one of a number of computer programs available to process your audio.  Only rarely does a straight transfer from the recorder yield an ultimately satisfying recording.  Most people, even if they don't use EQ, like to track, trim, normalize and correct basic problems (channel balance, etc.) before finalizing.

I would also caution against making a large initial investment until you find out that you really like it.  You can assemble a nice rig for a few hundred bucks.  Astronomy is similar:  people start the hobby, buy an expensive telescope, and then it sits gathering dust when they've lost interest.

Recording and preserving music is satisfying.  I know a hell of a lot more than I did four years ago, and that was after 20 years of running analog.  Be patient.  People are always willing to help here, but it is advisable to search the thousands of pages available here.  99.999999% of your questions will be answered in the forums.  Really.


Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2015, 12:55:04 PM »


@mec111272:  Yeah, I've been keeping an eye on the stuff in the For Sale sections; I just wanted some input to make sure I was headed in the right direction. Thanks for the advice, much appreciated!

@boltman: Good point; sounds like 2-channel recording is the way to go. I'm pretty good with computers and I've already started playing around with Audacity, so don't worry, I'm under no illusion that what comes out of the recorder will be "finished"! I agree with the sentiment against making a huge initial investment; I just on't want to buy something that I would have to replace as soon as I want to upgrade any other part of the rig, if that makes sense. Again, thank you for the info!

Offline buckster

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 01:23:42 PM »
Hello and welcome!  I stumbled across this board a year ago when I was looking to assemble my first official taping rig.  At the time I had been recording a local band for a few years.  I had access to a Zoom H4N which I had used to make matrix mixes, but changes to the venue set up nixed safe and optimal placement of the Zoom, so I ended up just using the sbd feed exclusively. It was a digital sbd so my recording "gear" was just a usb flash drive!   However, I was itching to get back to a matrix mix and I wanted to take a step up from the Zoom on board mics.  I found a lot of information and expert advice on this site and my budget rig ended up being a Tascam DR-60D, four track recorder, and Studio Projects SP-4 mics.  The caveat about making a large investment up front is spot on and fortunately there's very decent sounding budget gear out there.   

In case you haven't come across it already there was a recent thread about inexpensive mics that you may find useful. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174460.0

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2015, 04:09:59 PM »
Also keep in mind that if you do buy a 2-channel recorder like the M10, you have the option of upgrading later by buying a second recorder to use in tandem when you have board access. (Cons: You have to align the two files later in Audacity to do a matrix. Pros: You can easily position the two recorders independently of each other if you want your mics far from the board.)

It sounds like you're asking all the right questions for getting started. (And I'll endorse the Church mics as a good combination of budget/quality, btw.) What got you interested in recording, if I may ask?

Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2015, 04:28:41 PM »
@buckster: Thanks, I'll check it out!

@nulldogmas: Yeah, it looks like I'll probably go with the M10... Well, initially I became interested/aware of concert archiving via the Dead section of the Archive, as I'm too (unfortunately) too young to have seen them back in the day! On top of that, I live in a college town with a very active music scene, but nobody ever records any live material at all; I figure that if no one else is doing it, I might as well be!

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 08:42:56 AM »
I figure that if no one else is doing it, I might as well be!

Excellent logic and good for you!  Taping U needs more young members like you. 

A comment I'll add to the above responses is that every handheld recorder I know of (M10 included) doesn't have an option to turn off Plug In Power (PIP).  There are usually two input jacks.  Typically they're labeled Mic In and Line In.  If you're using a battery box or preamp, use the Line In jack.  If you're plugging your mics directly into the handheld recorder, use the Mic In jack.  You might ask, well if I can power the mics directly from the recorder, then why do I need a preamp or battery box?  The answer is that that PIP voltage from the handheld is always quite low.  At that voltage, your mics won't be very efficient and, especially since you'll be recording loud music, they're likely to distort as the music volume increases.  A battery box or preamp (with their 9V battery) gives you better voltage to power your mics with.

You asked about mods to the mics.  If you choose to go the AT853, you'll most definitely want to buy a pair that already have the 4.7k resistor mod...which isn't a complicated or expensive mod.  Without that mod, these mics will overload for high volume music.  Church audio mics work great at high volumes without any mods.

To figure out which you want, I'd listen to the millions of samples on the archive and let your ears decide for you.

Offline mec111272

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 10:28:01 AM »
"A comment I'll add to the above responses is that every handheld recorder I know of (M10 included) doesn't have an option to turn off Plug In Power (PIP).  "

DR-2D has a PIP on/off option which allows you to run externally powered mics into both ports.   I have one and use it as my backup, they are out of production so that may not be helpful.  Also, I am one of the unfortunate people that has had a problem with the external power jack,  if I use external power I got a horrible ticking/humm in the recording.




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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2015, 10:44:49 AM »
The last one I saw was for the CAFS which are super tiny, like the size of a pencil eraser.

Smaller than that, more like the size of the end of the wire. I would not recommend them as starter mics though as they are omni. The CA-14 cards would be a great starter pair along with a CA9200 and you are right that Chris puts together some great deals on sets from time to time. Just don't be in a hurry with Chris.

Somebody mentioned Studio Project C4 mics with a Tascam DR60, that would be a great starter rig. Don't forget to add in cables and a stand and/or clamps.
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Offline thunderbolt

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2015, 12:10:36 PM »
You can turn off PIP on the Sony.  It's in the "detail" menu.  Also, if you insert a jack into mic in while it's turned on, you'll get a prompt asking if you want PIP on or off.

Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2015, 12:29:32 PM »
@tonedeaf: Good to know about the 4.7k mod; I understand the reasoning behind needing a battery box/preamp (particularly, it seems for the loud shows), and I'm fairly comfortable with when to use line-vs-mic in (and it's good to hear that the M10 does have the option to turn off PIP, thanks boltman!) I'm definitely watching for any new CA deals that fit my needs!

@cybergaloot: Yeah, it seems like cards are going to be the most forgiving for someone with less experience and presumably won't catch as much bar background chatter to the sides/behind as omni's do. I hadn't looked at the DR-60 before now, but it certainly does look like a good recorder... A little bulkier than the M10, perhaps, but definitely something to consider!

Offline hoppedup

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2015, 12:52:20 PM »
The DR-60D will be there if you ever decide to buy mics that have xlr connections and require phantom power. I think everyone here uses a USB battery to power it. Coupled with the form factor of the 60D, some folks might see it as a little clunkier than the M10, and it is.

My 60D has been rock solid and also allows me to run a second recording at -6db to help avoid clipping, or get board feed and fly mics. Church Audio mics or AT853s will serve you well. I used CA-14s for years and you'd have to spend quite a bit more money to get an upgrade in quality.

With all the card write errors going on with the DR-70D, I wouldn't recommend it at this time.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 01:14:55 PM »
chipoffools- Welcome to the hobby! One which will soothe your brain with live music after the event but strain your brain every time you think about how much more money for gear you will spend. It isn't as expensive as yachting or golfing, but might be close to golfing in terms of equipment/ticket prices     8)

I haven't bought "budget" mics in a while (I used a pair of Sonic Studios for a few years), but the other thing only one person has mentioned is that your original cash outlay should consider the type of recording you will be doing. I am sure you understand not all venues/bands "allow" recording. This knowledge can serve you well in deciding which equipment to buy. I feel this is why some here prefer the smaller CA's or AT's.

As for bit buckets- maybe consider the Olympus LS14 or LS100. The original cost is more than the M10, but in my direct experience with my buddies LS10, the internal mics are great:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/896212-REG/Olympus_v409141bu000_LS_14_Linear_PCM_Recorder.html        two tracks    ~ $172 USD

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/830941-REG/Olympus_LS_100_LS_100_Multi_Track_PCM_Recorder.html         multi-track     ~ $329 USD
(B&H photo links just because I like to comparison shop on that site.)

Enjoy. We need more tapers in the world as far as I am concerned   ;D
BTW- i love the TS handle you chose- Welcome to this particular ship of fools!     8)
 
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Offline buckster

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 01:41:40 PM »
Also keep in mind that if you do buy a 2-channel recorder like the M10, you have the option of upgrading later by buying a second recorder to use in tandem when you have board access. (Cons: You have to align the two files later in Audacity to do a matrix. Pros: You can easily position the two recorders independently of each other if you want your mics far from the board.)
Yepper.  Even though I'm using a four track recorder, my recorder/mics are not set up by the sdb; so I still get my sbd feed on the usb flash drive.  Because of timing differences, syncing the two files is certainly one of the more tedious aspects of working the files in post. 

Offline yousef

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 02:09:25 PM »
Some random thoughts...

1) M10/AT853/Church stuff might be regarded as "starter" gear by some but that is primarily due to their price point. I still hold onto a AT-853>Church 9100>M10 set-up and would recommend it to anyone who wasn't getting ready to blow vast amounts of money on a rig.

2) If you are regularly doing board + mics a 4-channel recorder will save you hours of aligning and time-stretching separate recordings but 2 x M10s would give you greater flexibility in placement (you won't always want your mics right by the mixing desk) plus you'll have a smaller recorder for those under-the-radar jobs.

3) "bit bucket"  ::)

4) Don't lose sight of why you're drawn to this hobby: the love of the music. It's easily lost in the midst of all the gear acquisition and quest for the "perfect" recording or rig

5) As noted above, this really is a slippery slope. When I started I bought a clip-on mic and a minidisk and thought I'd never even need a battery box - the route between that and a 24-channel rig with splitters, pre-amps, 100ft of snake and every manner of mic, stand and lead imaginable has been surprisingly short. And enormous fun.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2015, 02:25:48 PM »
Some random thoughts...
3) "bit bucket"  ::)

4) Don't lose sight of why you're drawn to this hobby: the love of the music. It's easily lost in the midst of all the gear acquisition and quest for the "perfect" recording or rig
Yousef: Yeah, but I like that term "bit bucket" as an old skool analog taper (yes, very old) it really isn't "taping" these days- I guess "recorder" would have been accurate without the implied "taper" ageism!  >:D

chipoffools: Yousef is correct, IMO it is important to love music and enjoy the ability to play it back on your own time. I know several soundmen who actually dislike music and rarely listen to anything outside of work. Usually these guys have been doing it for so many years and/or are studio techs. listening to the same track repeatedly for 8-20 hours can make one a bit sour!  :o
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2015, 03:14:14 PM »
As far as the DR60D goes, I've seen good sales on them relatively often at B&H Photo. I don't own one myself but it gives you a four channel option. Almost any AUD + SBD setup will require some time sync between the two sources but it really helps if they are made using the same clock. If you use two devices they may or may not line up correctly then you have to stretch one to sync. 

Another great option for mics are the Line Audio CM3 mics. You have to order them from Belgium or France but they are really good mics for a very decent price. Probably the best bang for the buck on mics right now. They are small too. Not as small as the Church Audio mics though.
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2015, 03:17:34 PM »
positioning: TEN times more important than the mics used.

find the "sweet spot" in the venues you frequent. and save some money on microphones (at least initially, you can always 'branch out' later on)


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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2015, 09:27:54 PM »
You can turn off PIP on the Sony.  It's in the "detail" menu.  Also, if you insert a jack into mic in while it's turned on, you'll get a prompt asking if you want PIP on or off.

Yeah, I use a battery box with CA-14 cards through the mic in (with PIP turned off) a lot of the time. Trial and error has taught me the rule of thumb: If I don't feel like I need earplugs, then it's quiet enough to go mic in. (With these particular mics, obviously. YMMV otherwise.)

And add me to the chorus of yays for recording music because no one else is. Welcome, and I look forward to hearing what you capture.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2015, 08:41:34 AM »
I was pleasantly shocked by the quality of recording from at853s into a m10.  If recording louder material, a battery box is needed, but not expensive. 

The 60d gives you the option of using a broader range of mics with xlr connections and phantom power.  The disadvantage is its the size of a block of butter and you will need an external battery for longer recordings.  The m10 will run for hours on end off a pair of AAs. 

If you want to run a camera feed, the 60d has an adjustable out feed.

The choice between them is largely a question of how you intend to record. 

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2015, 09:26:11 AM »
positioning: TEN times more important than the mics used.

find the "sweet spot" in the venues you frequent.

^This.

The microphone configuration (the way you arrange them - where they point and the spacing between them) is the second most important thing.
The mics themselves are third most important. 
And everything else is pretty much in a far distant fourth place and just needs to work correctly without causing problems.

The term "bit bucket" used to generally mean a digital input recorder which was used with a separate external preamp/Analog-to-Digital-Converter.  The term originally implied that as a device in the recording rig, it did nothing more than "collect the bits".  In this day and age, both the preamps and the ADC built into recorders have improved significantly, and fewer tapers now use an external ADC, even those who continue to use and external mic preamp.  But the meaning of language is fluid and constantly evolves, so the term may now be shifting to refer to all digital recorders, including those using their own internal ADCs and perhaps their own internal preamps. 
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Offline yousef

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2015, 03:13:44 PM »
The microphone configuration (the way you arrange them - where they point and the spacing between them) is the second most important thing.
The mics themselves are third most important. 
And everything else is pretty much in a far distant fourth place and just needs to work correctly without causing problems.

Purely in terms of sonics, yes. But I'd argue that the practicalities of taping have also to be taken into account.

Position is often the thing we have the least control over - in open situations there are usually practical and venue restrictions to work within and when stealthing you're limited by your own height and where your ticket allows you to stand/sit. And configuration is usually a non-starter when stealthing.

Then there's size of recorder, ease of adjusting levels on the fly (or without sight of the unit), accuracy of metering, cable entry points...

You can have the best mics in the prime location in the ideal configuration but it matters not a jot if the recorder has crapped out for one reason or another.
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Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2015, 03:41:51 PM »
First of all, thanks for all of the replies! You've all been very helpful... As far as mic positioning/location, I've read up on potential set ups a little, but those seem like issues that I'll have to work out in practice... Unless an incredible deal comes up on a better recorder, I'll probably just go with the M10 as a starter recorder and look for deals on good beginner mics in the Yard Sale/on Ebay.

Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2015, 03:43:32 PM »
My two cents, fwiw:

Grab these and one of Brian's DIN bars:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174880.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168213.0

Robb (darktrain) does excellent work, as does Brian (it-goes-to-eleven).

:)
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Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2015, 03:57:01 PM »
@chinariderstl: Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely pick up the AT 853's..

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2015, 04:05:56 PM »
The microphone configuration (the way you arrange them - where they point and the spacing between them) is the second most important thing.
The mics themselves are third most important. 
And everything else is pretty much in a far distant fourth place and just needs to work correctly without causing problems.

Purely in terms of sonics, yes. But I'd argue that the practicalities of taping have also to be taken into account.

Position is often the thing we have the least control over - in open situations there are usually practical and venue restrictions to work within and when stealthing you're limited by your own height and where your ticket allows you to stand/sit. And configuration is usually a non-starter when stealthing.

Then there's size of recorder, ease of adjusting levels on the fly (or without sight of the unit), accuracy of metering, cable entry points...

You can have the best mics in the prime location in the ideal configuration but it matters not a jot if the recorder has crapped out for one reason or another.

All true.  In the real world, practicalities always need to be taken into account.  However, none of those practical issues change the order of importance one whit.  They are simply things which we can or cannot do something about, to various degrees.

A failure anywhere sinks the ship.  Every link of the chain needs to at least work properly without causing problems.  But that doesn't raise the importance of a cable or battery in the overall hierarchy of which things are most important to try and get right in order to obtain the best results in any given situation.


That hierarchical list is all about determining which issues are most important, and indicates where to focus one's efforts for the greatest return.

Juggling practicalities is about how to go about achieving those hierarchical goals, a further refinement determining what is worthwhile to pursue given what is within our control.


As for practicalities and stealth, I see it the opposite way:
Stealth often makes it easier to optimize one's recording location, many times making it possible to record from positions completely unavailable for open recording.  Figuring out how to get the seat you want is a practical issue.  Mic configuration for stealth is very open to different configurations, it just takes imagination combined with well reasoned consideration of the specifics of the particular application.  Many tapers don't really seem to think very creatively in finding improved mic configurations for open recording, so I don't find it particularly surprising that less imagination may be put towards improved stealth configs which are specifically tailored to a particular situations.  Granted, doing a 10' wide A-B split is difficult, at least without a second person.  Different constraints call for different tools.
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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2015, 04:07:08 PM »
@chinariderstl: Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely pick up the AT 853's..

This is my favorite AT853 recording. :)

https://archive.org/details/iseehawks2008-04-01.at853.flac
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2015, 04:09:28 PM »
@chinariderstl: Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely pick up the AT 853's..

Good choice.  Most people come into this thinking about the recorder first, and mics second.  Yet most who have done this for a while end up considering their mics as far more primary and the recorder as a secondary supporting piece of gear, one which usually gets changed out more frequently as time rolls on, once they are pleased with the results they are getting from the mics.
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2015, 04:12:53 PM »
I'll probably just go with the M10 as a starter recorder and look for deals on good beginner mics in the Yard Sale/on Ebay.

Wise choice. Even if you later decide to move to a four channel recorder or different mics, I'd hold onto this starter rig. The M10 is perfect for patching because of its long battery life and small size.
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2015, 05:21:37 PM »

Stealth often makes it easier to optimize one's recording location, many times making it possible to record from positions completely unavailable for open recording.  Figuring out how to get the seat you want is a practical issue.  Mic configuration for stealth is very open to different configurations, it just takes imagination combined with well reasoned consideration of the specifics of the particular application.  Many tapers don't really seem to think very creatively in finding improved mic configurations for open recording, so I don't find it particularly surprising that less imagination may be put towards improved stealth configs which are specifically tailored to a particular situations.  Granted, doing a 10' wide A-B split is difficult, at least without a second person.  Different constraints call for different tools.

yup, yup, and yup.

that's why micstand recordings mostly have a 'sterile' sound to them.

some people like that kind of sound

for me, it's bland and tasteless.

once in awhile I've heard a mic stand recording that hits it out out of the park, but for each of those, I have 5 stealth recordings that sound equally as good if not better.

different strokes for different folks, but I will ne'er in this life mess with all that extra, fancy attention-attracting crap.

if all you tape is open-taping bands, it may be the way to go, but I've never heard any mic stand recordings that make me go "wow".

internal mics sucked in the late '00's, but they've come a long way since then.

p.s. AT mics always sounded too "hot" to me.....plenty of mid-range, too much hi-end, and no bass. I'd not touch them with a 10 foot pole...or mic stand, for that matter. for jam-bands that have no low-end to begin with though, they may work fine.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2015, 05:24:50 PM »
I find myself using my m10 more than my other recorders.  At853s are a good choice, too.  Both have held their value in the YS, too.

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2015, 10:33:37 PM »
My recent recording of Bootsy's Rubber Band I recently stealthed with AT853's into a Church Audio ST-9200 preamp into my m10 sounds very rich and full. Plenty of bass for my ears.  great all around rig imo
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2015, 09:21:18 AM »
micstand recordings mostly have a 'sterile' sound to them.

Nah, that just means they aren't being done particularly well.  Often those recordings are an example of the sound from the back of the venue where a stand is allowed or can be more easily managed - well behind the impact zone up front, surrounded by a less enthusiastic audience, with a different direct/reverberant situation calling for different mic configs than closer up front.  But those issues have nothing to do with recording from a microphone stand (a stealth recording made from the base of the stand would likely be far inferior), rather it's right back to the top slot on my hierarchical list: recording location.  Just because the mics are attached to a stand doesn't automatically damn the recording, if anything that allows for a better recording.  It makes producing a great recording easier in many ways, the most common issue with it purely from a technical point of view is that we are not often able to place that stand were it would make the best recording. 

I'm just talking the technical stuff here, and not addressing any of the social/cultural baggage of open stand taping verses stealth.  I know you feel strongly about that, but it's really an entirely separate issue.

All this is totally situation dependant.  For some things I can make far better stealth recordings than I could using a stand, and for others the exact opposite is true.
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2015, 09:34:03 AM »
Having tried a number of miniature cardioids, I tend to agree with obaaron that the AT853 cardioid has plenty of bottom in comparison to other similar priced cardioids.  I consider them pretty well balanced, tonally, and a good value.  It is true that some of the other miniature AT models I tried did not have as much bottom as the AT853 cardioid however.

As for the suitability of mics with more of a tapered off response down low (less bottom), they can be very useful for recording music styles which are often mixed with too much bass, or even other kinds of music in bass-heavy venues.  Although I prefer to EQing things to taste afterwards, because doing that gives me the most control, I'd much rather use a mic with less bottom response to it than engage the low-cut/bass-rolloff switch on the recorder.   Those low-cut filters built into recorders are usually rather ham-fisted and better suited for dialog recording than music recording.
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Offline furburger

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2015, 02:18:50 PM »


Nah, that just means they aren't being done particularly well.  Often those recordings are an example of the sound from the back of the venue where a stand is allowed or can be more easily managed - well behind the impact zone up front, surrounded by a less enthusiastic audience, with a different direct/reverberant situation calling for different mic configs than closer up front.  But those issues have nothing to do with recording from a microphone stand (a stealth recording made from the base of the stand would likely be far inferior), rather it's right back to the top slot on my hierarchical list: recording location.  Just because the mics are attached to a stand doesn't automatically damn the recording, if anything that allows for a better recording.  It makes producing a great recording easier in many ways, the most common issue with it purely from a technical point of view is that we are not often able to place that stand were it would make the best recording. 

I'm just talking the technical stuff here, and not addressing any of the social/cultural baggage of open stand taping verses stealth.  I know you feel strongly about that, but it's really an entirely separate issue.

All this is totally situation dependant.  For some things I can make far better stealth recordings than I could using a stand, and for others the exact opposite is true.

hence the use of the word "mostly"...I have heard good, if not great mic stand recordings, but as you said, they're not "from the back of the room" ones, they're when the taper was able to set up a foot or two from the PA and almost put the mics in the cone. nice, fat, crunchy, etc.....

I'll just never understand why tapers would go the 'safe' route and limit themselves to less than 1% of a rooms spatial area (especially when the 'sweet spot' is in front of the board 99% of the time)...sure, it's convenient, but I don't tape for convenience, I tape to capture the best sounding recording possible.

to me, those mic stand recordings often sound hollow. and I'm not talking about matrix-style, which is an entirely different talk show.

back to the AT's, I pretty much collected the entire Crowes '96 tour, a band that has a full range of sound, and the guy who taped 5 shows with his AT's, they were listened to seldom for the reasons I explained.  but they weren't the ones in the link previous, they were actual 'microphones', not the tiny ones that were in the pic. there was also another taper who taped a lot of bands with AT's (I don't have the specific model here, it's on the tape cases, which are buried right now), and when I'd playback and look at the EQ flat, the spectrum was like that of a giant pyramid....LOTS of midrange, but lacking on both the left and the right. again, persononal preference. was never big on Schoeps either. Geffel's sounded pretty nice, and there was one other mic-stand taper who did some excellent, non-jamband pulls with a micstand, I think it was Kurt V, who no longer tapes.

for me, it's more the 'trouble/setup/teardown' of micstands...if they sounded "twice as good", to justify the expense, I'd have went that way long ago.

instead, they rarely sound 10% better, which makes stealth an easy choice for moi.
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2015, 03:57:04 PM »
for me, it's more the 'trouble/setup/teardown' of micstands...if they sounded "twice as good", to justify the expense, I'd have went that way long ago.

instead, they rarely sound 10% better, which makes stealth an easy choice for moi.

You've stated your case about a hundred times. Multiple times in this thread alone that's supposed to be about a beginner getting some advice. Give it a rest.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2015, 04:30:10 PM »
[edit]- This didn't need to be here.


Apologies to the original poster for taking this thread OT, and welcome to this extended and sometimes dysfunctional taping family.  All this doesn't have to be overly complicated unless you care to make it so.  Really.  Best of luck getting back in, follow your own ear, we're here with advice if you care for it, even if sometimes contradictory.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 10:12:14 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline furburger

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2015, 06:40:31 PM »
To each his own.  My experience is different.  On top of that, different tapers have different personal preferences. 

Even though this isn't really an appropriate thread for it, I'll explain my point of view and then be done with it, since the discussion of it here has at least been  amicable and rational up to this point-

I don't often get around to distributing my recordings, mostly because I'm a perfectionist and rarely get around to doing the post work which I feel is necessary both for the recording to be properly finished and for me to be happy with others listening to them.  Yet in terms of quality, I'd put the best of my recordings - both those made from a stand and those without one - up against any I've heard.

My very best recordings of small-ensemble jazz have been made by placing multiple microphones in an array on a low stand on-stage, and my best of things in outdoor amphitheaters have been made from multiple microphones arranged on a stand, placed FOB DFC.  In both cases the recording configuration was optimized for the specifics of the situation.  Those two situations are very different from each other, and so are the setups which worked best for them.. and the setups I arrived at also tend to be quite different from what most other tapers are doing.  I want to emphasize that this is not to say I think others are doing it "wrong", only that  over time I've figured out what works best for me, by methodically trying different things in the same venues from locations I've found to be best, of all those available to me.

Here's the clincher- In the situations I describe above, I could not have made a superior stealth recording from any place in the venue to which I or any other audience member had access.  I know that for certain because I did exactly that multiple times, in order to compare various approaches and setups, to unequivocally determine for myself the truth of the matter.  Only by direct listening comparisons would I allow myself to be convinced of the superiority of one approach over the other.  Sometimes that meant running 3 entirely separate multi-channel recordings simultaneously.

You will be pleased to hear that there actually are a few situations where even if I was given total freedom (in a reasonable, practical sense - say that afforded to a professional location recording operation), I do think that I could still make a superior recording without a stand, but those are very rare exceptions to the rule, and that is mostly because of the odd peculiarities of some of the methods I've developed.

And so when I tried several mini-cardioids in search of small, less-costly mics for my light & portable multichannel FOB stand rig - the larger full-sized version of which (the no-holds-barred reference setup) uses Gefells and DPAs - I found the AT853 cards worked very well in combination with the other mics in the rig.  The ATs were only displaced by the miniature DPA 4098 hypercards, which were 4 times more costly.  Perhaps ironically, the DPA 4098 sounds very little like the 853 cardioid (the 4098 has unsurpassed clarity; the AT has far more bottom end and is flatter in it's overall response).  Although it works best for me in my particular setups, I hesitate to recommend the 4098 as a go to miniature mic for most tapers, because it has a reduced low frequency response which can sound thin if used alone in a typical stereo pair in ways most tapers would use them (for me that particular trait is an advantage, as they are used along with wide-spaced miniature DPA omnis which pull  enough bass to shake the foundation).

But I care less about what a mic sounds like "raw" than if I can get it to work in a gestalt sense, along with the other mics in the array, after some corrective EQ.  I'm willing to accept the trouble/setup/teardown to get the better quality I can get when using a stand, and the post-production trouble/hassle for optimizing both my stand-mounted and non-stand mounted recordings, because that's what is required to reach a level of quality in the resulting recording which I'm happy with.

I'm not saying anyone needs to do it my way (no one is particularly interested in doing so anyway) or that other's are doing it wrong.  But I know what works for me and I know I'm talking about because I've worked through the variables over years of doing this.


Apologies to the original poster for taking this thread OT, and welcome to this extended and sometimes dysfunctional taping family.  All this doesn't have to be overly complicated unless you care to make it so.  Really.  Best of luck getting back in, follow your own ear, we're here with advice if you care for it, if sometimes contradictory.


I totally understand what you are saying....yes, I'm sure a configuration of numerous microphones could result in such a capture, but what you describe above is "borderline studio recording"vs. live. the closest I've come to such a capture was patching out of David Dyche's *seven* mic stand at the Fox in Atlanta for the ABB, when ol' tour 'magician' Kirk West gave me VIP access for 2 shows in exchange for some of my mighty fine Alaskan hippy lettuce (crazy story about how my room at the Daze (sic) Inn across the street was on the same floor as the Bros. crew....). I was pretty interested in mic stand recordings at that point (having mastered stealthing over the previous 6 years), so why not 'gravitate' toward the biggest stand in the venue and talk shop? no idea what he was taping with then (though I'm sure that he's posted the shows/equipment since), and while I was impressed, the question was ***is this really worth the trouble***?

another classic example is front row (Rich's side) for the Crowes in '96 in Seattle. Chris Bold had his stand with Sennheiser's not 5 feet from where I taped with my Sonics. which made for a GREAT comparison point.

his recording: AMAZING sounding.


but so was mine, to the point that it's near impossible to tell the difference.


which goes to positioning.... the next night, his tickets were not as good (whereas mine were 2nd row), and mine is the "standard" for Crowesbase. it's a bit "Rich-heavy" "Rich's toes were 4 feet from my face at the Orpheum), though any Crowes fan will most likely say that's a plus vs. a minus, as it gives you a bit of a different aural perspective. you can clearly hear his fingers drag across the strings during the quiet moments. and the "yah mon" guy just adds flavor, that a mic stand would barely, if at all capture. (he only did it between 2 or 3 songs, not compromising the music in the slightest)



MOST (well over 90%) tapers started as stealthers, then some graduated to stands.

I know many who tried stands for a bit, then went back to stealth, as the hassle and expense did not result in a superior product. comparable, sure, but not superior.


so, when someone is "trying to get into taping", it's inherently clear that starting with stealth is the way to *start taping*, then if you aren't happy with that, delve into the next level.

but starting with a stand makes no sense to me.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2015, 07:22:48 PM »
For the OP -- given the types of music & venues you mention, I'd recommend maximizing direct sound from the stage / PA and minimize room acoustics.  Your best bet to do so:  get close to the stage and / or PA, depending on the environment.  Edit to add:  Depending on your preferences, this might mean stack-taping, which will take you quite close to the PA speakers.  Or it might mean back away from the stacks, centered, at a space where the sound is strongest and most clear, with minimal room noise.  Those are just two of the general options you'll have and you may vary your placement from show to show.

So irrespective of the gear you get -- you've received very good recommendations, I think, most of which could be run either openly on a stand or stealth -- consider using the gear in such a way that you achieve good placement.  As noted previously, of the factors within your control, placement is the most important.  That may mean you could use a mic stand in some cases, or it could mean stealthing to ensure a better recording location.

Without delving into the side discussion too deeply...I think stealth v. stand really just comes down to what we typically record and where / how we want to record it.

For much of my taping over the years, I've had a pretty good run of the venue, including FOB and on-stage when that was appropriate.  As such, I could run mics and configs on a stand that simply weren't possible (or would have proven significantly more difficult) stealth -- for example mid-side, spaced omnis, hypers/cards with wide spacing and smaller included angle, Blumlein, Jecklin-disc omnis, etc.  Generally speaking, I find having my choice of location + stand taping provides a better opportunity to make an excellent recording.

Could I have made a fine stealth recording in those scenarios?  Probably.  But running on a stand allows me to use the mics + config I want, as well as not relegating myself to "human mic stand" duty for the whole show.

I've contemplated re-adding a stealth setup so I could expand my placement opportunities in limited-access venues, but I just don't do enough of this type of recording these days to warrant it.  Though I have high hopes of doing so one day.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 07:26:27 PM by Brian Skalinder »
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Offline mec111272

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2015, 07:56:45 PM »
In my experience, which is not as extensive as others,  the venues I find myself in will only let you run from certain locations unless you are "with the band".  That being said I have at times run a stealth rig  but find the "human mics stand" thing a real pain in the ass.  Also every time I have done this I end up with drunk wooks talking over the whole thing. 

So given that this thread has morphed, in a good way, I have a few simple questions.

1.  When taping a rock show from a PA I assume that the house is a mono mix.  Do you guys go right up to the PA plunk down and roll from there?
2.  Short of telling people to shut the hell up, how do you guys deal with the chatter?  Is there something I am missing here?
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Offline furburger

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2015, 08:21:35 PM »
In my experience, which is not as extensive as others,  the venues I find myself in will only let you run from certain locations unless you are "with the band".  That being said I have at times run a stealth rig  but find the "human mics stand" thing a real pain in the ass.  Also every time I have done this I end up with drunk wooks talking over the whole thing. 

So given that this thread has morphed, in a good way, I have a few simple questions.

1.  When taping a rock show from a PA I assume that the house is a mono mix.  Do you guys go right up to the PA plunk down and roll from there?
2.  Short of telling people to shut the hell up, how do you guys deal with the chatter?  Is there something I am missing here?

a huge help in my minimizing the "drunk wooks" (I call 'em 'geese', as per the Cowboy Junkies) is that if it's a sold-out show, stay away from the 'cattle' (shoulder-to-shoulder "blah blah") in the front 1/3 of the floor, and make sure that you have ample space to "shift over" to the left or right if a gaggle "happens to land within earshot). it took a couple years to figure that out, but it helped my stealthing quite a bit.

also, "taking in" the venue and the TM seating charts have helped immensely in this regard. if the section your ticket is in might not be optimal for taping, and you see ***wide open sections*** on the seating chart day-of, common sense dictates you tape from there and run your levels hotter, as there's no crowd to combat spatially. pulled many a good video/audio (Black Keys, Chili Peppers, Nine Inch Nails) in that scenario, for NIN, I actually bought a handicapped seat, as they were way undersold in those sections, there were 12 handicapped seats and only 3 occupied....and the recording reflects such an arrangement.

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Offline bryonsos

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2015, 09:12:28 PM »
Your mic placement is often more important than their brand or configuration. As Mr. Burger has pointed out, in the back of the venue can be a poor choice, and high up in the air is often not optimal either. In a perfect world, the apex of the 'sound triangle' is where you want your mics:

http://www.acousticfields.com/sound-triangle/

Regarding height, in that perfect world, running at head/ear height should also be optimal, but that's also mouth height. If folks are chatty, your mics will hear the chatter whether they are crappy/internal mics or multi-$$ studio gems. IMHO, running at ~7-8' is a good compromise. You'll be high enough to avoid hearing your friends coming by to say hello, but low enough to be more or less where the speakers are pointed. In a well designed theatre/room, the soundboard will be at or near the apex of the triangle, so generally setting up by the board is a safe bet. If the sound engineer is friendly, they might let you set up at or clamped to their cage/booth area.
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Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2015, 12:43:02 PM »
Thank you for your input, everyone! Certainly an interesting discussion on the stealth/open issue... I realize that I'll mostly have to figure out my stance on the issue by running stealth and open rigs and seeing which ones give me recordings I'm happier with. For now, I'm going to go with an open rig; with the venues I'm frequenting, I fear that crowd noise/rowdiness will make it very difficult for me to get a decent stealth recording.

A few other questions that come to mind (let me know if there are other resources that I should be checking out with these):

Brian, you mentioned stack-taping. Just how close to the PA are you talking? Another concern with that is that since the venues are so small, drums and other instruments often aren't miced, so I wouldn't pick up those if I was only stack-taping.

Do I need windscreens? Almost none of my taping will be done outside; but is there any decrease in sensitivity, ect. when using a screen? In other words, is it better to just be safe and add a windscreen?

Finally, I'd love beginner suggestions for rigs/mounts/ect. It looks like the DIN bar linked previously (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168213.0) is a good choice for an active mount. I'm thinking most of the time I'll be clamping to tables, chairs, and beams instead of setting up a stand (too many drunk punks in too small of an area for me to trust a stand), and from a look through related threads it seems like the Manfrotto Quick Action Clamp (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/252212-REG/Manfrotto_649_649_Quick_Action_Release.html) and the Manfrotto Super Clamp (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5160-REG/Manfrotto_2909_2909_Super_Clamp_with.html) are good choices for flat surfaces and rails, respectively. As far as extension poles and other useful/essential attachments go, though, I'm afraid I'm fairly in the dark... Also, this may be a stupid question, but do you guys just hold your recorder/preamp while the mics are recording, or do you connect them to the rig in some way?

Thank you very much! It may be a little while before I get out some samples to you guys (AKA save enough money to get everything), but you have been extremely helpful so far!

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2015, 02:00:18 PM »
For now, I'm going to go with an open rig; with the venues I'm frequenting, I fear that crowd noise/rowdiness will make it very difficult for me to get a decent stealth recording.

Just keep in mind that one of the best ways to avoid picking up crowd noise is to get in front of the crowd. Which can sometimes require "stealth" gear, whether it's attached to your person or to a beam or something.


Do I need windscreens? Almost none of my taping will be done outside; but is there any decrease in sensitivity, ect. when using a screen? In other words, is it better to just be safe and add a windscreen?


Venue HVAC units can be as bad as the outdoors, especially for cardioid mics, which are more wind-sensitive. I'm not aware of any downsides to windscreens except that they take up space, but others will likely know better.


Also, this may be a stupid question, but do you guys just hold your recorder/preamp while the mics are recording, or do you connect them to the rig in some way?


I usually either tape my M10 to a wall or rail near the mics, or keep it in a bag nearby. Though even a bag isn't always safe, as I learned at one show that led to my all-time favorite recording note: "Second source missing on last two songs after Sue Garner sat on recorder."

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2015, 02:06:13 PM »
The Manfrotto 649 and super clamp are both excellent choices. I usually have both with me at all times. I have two 099B Manfrotto extensions. They work great with either clamp.

I also have an Impact super clamp knockoff and it works fine. I have two of the Impact air-cushioned light stands and they seem to be pretty durable.

As far as a mount, if you are going the 853 route, a lot of people have built mounts out of PVC. Hypnocracy made a nice one: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155832.msg1968914#msg1968914

I usually keep my recorder in a bag on the ground/floor, but I also have mounted it to the stand with a clamp. There are folks who just hang the smaller recorders in a small bag on the stand. Crown Royal bags seem to be popular.
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2015, 12:02:48 PM »
These are the things I have used most often when trying to rig up avoiding the use of a stand

Impact Superclamp
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824360-REG/impact_cc_106r_super_clamp_with_ratchet.html

Windtech C clamp
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?=WindTech+Multi-Position+%22C%22+Type+Clamp&N=10298908&InitialSearch=yes&sts=pi

Manfrotto 196-AB2 Articulating Arm
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=manfrotto+196ab-2&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

Manfrotto 099 Extension Pole
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=manfrotto+099b&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ps

Also have used lots of gaffers tape and some double sided velcro tape in a pinch. Early in my taping days I wanted to be as unobtrusive as possible so I taped a Sony MS907 and a minidisc recorder to a support column in a club I frequented. Now that I've gained considerably more self confidence and have formed relationships with a lot of promoters and club owners I can pretty much do whatever I want (also having more of an understanding about how to stay out of the way and not inconvenience anyone on the crews).

There is a good thread here about clamping and rigging that has some pictures and specific how to scenarios (clamping to balconies, poles, railings, etc) with tons of helpful links.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=151303.0

I would never wear my recording gear to get in the sweet spot. I like to get a little over head level to cut down on chatter and such and I also want to be able to move around, have a beer, go to the bathroom and generally enjoy myself at a show. If I'm going to a show that I know will be packed, the sweet spot is right in the traffic pattern or chatterboxes will be all over the place I will often bring along clamping and rigging gear, get there early and clear my plans to keep my stuff out of the way with the venue staff. They are often appreciative of my efforts, loan me ladder to clamp to a lighting truss or something and run my cables to a safe place out of the way.

Hit record, get beer, problems solved. :cheers:

Windscreens - I almost always have some screens on my mics even when running indoors. HVAC can be a problem and you never know when someone is going to get all excited and start throwing beer so I like an extra layer of protection just in case.

I use the DPA UA0896
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/282432-REG/DPA_Microphones_UA0896_UA0896_Windscreen_for_0_75.html#!
which are for 19mm mics. Whatever mics you chose I recommend getting some screens and using them all the time.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2015, 01:42:19 PM »
Brian, you mentioned stack-taping. Just how close to the PA are you talking? Another concern with that is that since the venues are so small, drums and other instruments often aren't miced, so I wouldn't pick up those if I was only stack-taping.

I've never really stack taped, so I can't say specifically.  I imagine it's situational, anyway.  Maybe a fellow TSer can chime in?

As for small venues in which not all instruments are mic'ed, I would start by moving around the venue and finding the spot that sounds best to your ears, while minimizing the crowd (also keep in mind cardioid mics will reject some of the nearby crowd noise).
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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2015, 02:15:41 PM »
In small venues in that kind of situation, I find it advantageous to find a spot where I get both the PA sound from a position close enough to the speaker get good clarity from it, but also the sound emanating from the stage as well.  That helps get a good representation of everything, including good representation of the drum kit transients (which are never as "live sounding" through the PA), and often also guitars, sometimes vocals and spoken stuff as well depending on the noise level in the room and the amount of PA amplification.  That often means being up front but often a few persons back, off-center near the stack, over to the inside edge of it but not too far off-axis from the speaker.  If you can see the treble or midrange horn of the PA, a good rule of thumb is to stay enough on-axis enough that you can see into the horn, and are not outside of the internal horn wall.  The clarity cut-off is often abrupt moving farther off-axis past that point, and easily audible.  Move around while listing to the house music before the band plays to find that edge.  Recording this way you may have the PA on one side and the direct stage sound on the other in the resulting recording, but a bit of level balancing of between both sides will bring the image to center.

If there are audience PA fills along the front of the stage, you are gold, get up close to one of those can get both the PA sound and stage sound very nicely balanced.  Not many venues use those unfortunately (IMO, stage monitor wedges should have PA fills built into the back side of them for the audience up front!)

In large venues, the PA is so loud it will completely bury the stage sound.  In that case, just find the clearest spot (its not always closest, though it is usually on-axis with the speaker) and position yourself so that the PA speaker is in the center of the stereo image, even if that means not really facing the stage.
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