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Author Topic: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)  (Read 13534 times)

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Offline cybergaloot

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Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« on: November 29, 2011, 11:53:32 AM »
I've been recording by pulling the individual channels of the soundboard to another console and mixing that to stereo for recording. I also add in a couple of ambient mics at stage lip and a hyper pointed at the audience for applause. That mic is on the same plane as the stage lip but up beside of the PA main speakers using it to block sound coming from the stage. I use it to bring the applause level up so that it doesn't sound like it is from a block away.

The problem is that if I get the level up to where it needs to be, it adds reverberation to the mix which is most apparent on the main vocals. Right now I'm riding the fader for that mic, normally keeping it just below the level where the reverberation is obvious and boosting it when the song ends. This can't be the best way to do things though I now notice it on some commercial live recordings. I have a Behringer Composer Pro compressor and wondered if I might be able to use it somehow with its "side chain" to control that channel so that it increases the gain when people are actually applauding or more likely, lowering the gain when they are not. Any suggestions?
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 01:51:49 PM »
I can't add anything technical.  While audience noise is obviously important for the ambiance of a live recording, my feeling is that if the applause fades between tracks are not transparent, it's distracting and annoying.  The LivePhish circa 2009 recordings are an example and there were sooo many people that commented about how much they hated the mixing of those SBDs.  Although that was only one of the reasons, it was mentioned alot.  Thankfully, Phish has a new guy mixing the LivePhish stuff since then.


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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 02:53:39 PM »
I have a Behringer Composer Pro compressor and wondered if I might be able to use it somehow with its "side chain" to control that channel so that it increases the gain when people are actually applauding or more likely, lowering the gain when they are not. Any suggestions?

Have you tried using an gate on your compressor with a high threshold and a low slope? It sounds like what you're after as you could really kill the quiet parts, and have it curve back up as the crowd swells to full blast as they scream at the end of a song.

Quote
Gate
The Gate section (commonly referred to as a gate/expander) affects the lowest level signals – those signals BELOW its threshold (as opposed to the compressor and limiter which work on signals above their thresholds).

There are a few main uses of the Gate:
1) Just as you could add more volume by compressing the lower signals and bringing up the overall gain of the output of the compressor, you can also add more volume (or at least fullness and body) by bringing up just the softest parts of the mix. This is done with the Gate and is called expansion. Since you also have a compressor and limiter above the Gate/expander section, you could choose to leave the peaks untouched (ratio of 1 for the compressor and limiter) or choose to also soften the peaks while also bringing up the lows (as shown in the picture below). To achieve this “upward compression,” set the Gate ratio less than 1.0.
2) You can use a Gate as, well, a noise gate, where any signals that are below the Threshold are effectively turned down completely. Back to our engineer analogy, the expander tells the engineer “when the level is BELOW the Threshold, turn it DOWN as indicated by the Ratio.
3) As a gate, use a high Ratio (8 to 10 or so) and set the Threshold down at the point of the noise floor.
4) If necessary, you can use the Gate/expander as an “uncompressor” to expand an overly compressed signal. Of course, it’s better not too over-compress to begin with, but sometimes you have a mix that has already been destructively compressed. As an “uncompressor,” try Thresholds around –20 to –30 to start and a ratio of 1.1 to 2.0 (with higher ratios providing more “uncompression”).

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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 03:14:40 PM »
I don't want it to sound unnatural. In fact, that's what I'm trying to fix. I've done a little web searching since I posted this and haven't found the answer I'm looking for, if one even exists. Essentially I'm trying to figure out a way to automatically increase the gain on a mic (soon to be a pair) when applause is detected but not when the band is playing. In other words, it has to detect a certain type of sound. The side chain function, if I understand it correctly, allows the compressor I have to work based on a different signal than the one it is controlling. It also has an expander/gate function but I don't know if the side chain will control that.

I wonder if reversing the polarity on the mic would help. Maybe that way it would be canceled by the sound from the stage until it gets quieter and then pickup the applause. I dunno.
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 03:24:14 PM »
I should say that I'm recording in a small blues club (cap. 120 max). I need to keep in mind when a singer may solo a capella or a guitarist may drop dramatically to a very quiet level (happens quite often). In other words, not everything is going to be blasting from the stage at 120db. Its a wrinkle in the problem that may keep me riding the fader. I'm going to try the reverse polarity because it seems Hosa makes a cheap adapter for that purpose. If it doesn't work I'll only be out a few bucks.
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 03:34:36 PM »
I understand the desire.  Less than optimal 'crowd liveness and feel' is something that frequently bothers me and distracts from what may otherwise be a great live recording. When mixing my surround recordings to stereo, I like to ride the surround channel between songs to get more crowd excitement vibe.

Walter, I think your inital thought on using the side chain of the compressor is worth exploring.  You'll be 'ducking' the audience feed by modulating its level with the level of your PA feed (or maybe just the vocal and the other parts that get over reverberant).  Think of the effect when radio announcers talk over the music and the music automatically reduces level when they speak, but probably a bit slower acting.  You'd do that by feeding the audience mic though the main channel of the compressor/limiter and the PA feed into it's side-chain.  Here's the Wikipedia entry for audio ducking- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducking. The trick will be getting the settings correct so it doesn't pump, but acts more like a volume leveler, allowing the audience feed to rise in level when the PA feed drops below the threshold, and gently lowering it again once the PA level rises.  You'll want a relatively low threshold, a high compression ratio to reduce the level enough, a longer than shorter attack time, and a long release time.
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 03:54:47 PM »
Thanks Lee, I think it will be tricky and possibly wont always work. Pumping is definitely something I don't want! The difference between the audience mic not causing a hollow sound and getting the level up enough to make it sound like the audience is at least in the same room as the band is about 10db. Other than this issue and the obvious one of the hassle of mixing to stereo on the fly, I have been getting some really great recordings this way.
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 04:01:00 PM »
what if you tried an omni instead of a hyper ???
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 04:14:02 PM »
what if you tried an omni instead of a hyper ???

x2 Plus, it may be better to get it away from the stage, maybe with you at your console?
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 04:19:29 PM »
I've tried a card but not an omni. Moving it away from the plane the mains are on will probably just make the problem worse. And actually the soundboard is next to the band and I'm on the other side of it. I'll see if I can find a picture.
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 04:42:39 PM »
Board on left, mic hidden behind speaker on the right. The board I use is just to the left of the main board.
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 04:43:25 PM »
My rig
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 05:37:15 PM »
A pretty much standard setup for adding crowd sound is two cardioids at the outside edges of the stage, facing away from the stage and towards the audience.  Substituting hypers could be a good option if the PA is closer to the reduced sensitivity regions of the hyper pattern and you aren't riding the fader.. or if that's just what you happen to have on-hand.  But your problem is the quality of reverberant sound of the PA when the aud mics are up in level, so in combination with auto-ducking or your manual fader riding which lowers the level of the aud mics during the music, you might instead try intentionally getting more direct PA sound into your audience mic(s) if doing so makes the PA less 'overly reverberant sounding'.  So the omni suggestion or repositioning your directional mic to get more PA may be good advice.  In that case the automatic ducking or manual fader riding adjusts both the level of crowd sound and the clear & direct sound picked up from the PA as well, instead of turning up the room sound with too much PA reverberance.  But that only works if you can get a clean PA vocal sound with the aud mic level up as much as you need it between songs.

Really this is two seperate issues. One is the over reverberance of the PA when the aud feed is up in level, the other is semi-automating the fader riding.  You'll probably get the best results from optimizing both seperately.  You might be able to reduce the reverberant PA effect with careful ducking settings, but that will be trickier to avoid 'pumping'.  I realize I'm contradicting myself somewhat by initally suggesting ducking as the solution to your reverberance problem, and that might work, but on thinking it through, I think this likely is a better approach.

If you can get the reverberance taken care of with mic pattern and position, audible pumping of the applause in the ducking setup should be pretty easy to eliminate by using appropriate attack and release times.  Set your compression ratio to achieve that -10dB or so of gain reduction above the side-chain threshold or whatever amount works when manually riding the fader and tweak the treshold point and attack/release times to achieve a smooth fade-in and out of the applause.  Using it to cut the excess vocal reverbrance is tricker, because you'll need careful settings that act fast enough to lower the level as soon as the vocal cuts in, but doesn't 'pump' the audience sound.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 05:43:12 PM »
Looks like the Legendary Joint Chiefs in your top photo, no?

..keeping the legend of Otis Redding alive.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Re: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 06:03:50 PM »
Omni's would be easy enough to try, I've got spares. Heck, one thing I read online was to try plain old Shure SM-57's (Cards, I know). I went with Hypers based on something I read by Bruce Barrett in his "Recording Music on Location" book and experiences I had using hypers back when I was recording from back in the audience (like most tapers do).

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