Topic: Church Audio Equipment Advice Before Purchase

[Boxtool5]

Anyone able to offer some guidance/advice would be greatly appreciated. I am relatively new to taping(and new here). I mostly looking for guidance and the input of those with experience. I've searched the forums and I THINK I've got the answers I need, I just want to make sure I'm making the right choice before I buy.
While I like a variety of genres, I want my equipment geared towards taping Tool (or other "prog", loud, quiet,loud)
Stealth is important, but I don't want to sacrifice quality. I think I'm about to purchase:

CA 11's and the CA ugly pre-amp (as long as performance is the same I like the idea that it's the smallest).
I've heard recordings with both CA 11's and CA 14's, without noting all the other factors of the recording, the quality varies too much for me to determine, which are best for my wants. I've heard excellent and relatively poor recordings from both.

I don't go to as many shows as I used to (wish I started taping sooner) but in the last few years I've gone to see:
Tool, Peter Gabriel, APC, Puscifer, John Prine, Saul Williams, Billy Bragg, Cat Power, Chris Smithers, Bon Iver, EmmyLou Harris, Roger Waters, Roger Daltrey,The Who "Quadrophenia".....There's more but that should give you an idea of what I'm aiming to record.

I see more small venue theater shows and outdoor festival shows, but I want my gear suited for stadium shows. Whenever possible I position myself at the back of floor seating or GA, typically mid-way from the sound booth to the back of the floor.

So far I've only recorded with the built in mics on my Pcmm10, it's time to upgrade, wish I could've done it months ago before Ian Anderson in the coming weeks...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated and put towards good use.

Cheers

[anr]

-re Ian Anderson, I'd just like to say that I've heard a few recordings from his recent US tour and by far the best, in my opinion, was from the San Francisco War Memorial Opera House (8th July) using OKM II in-ears.  Church Audio products are generally good, but there are good alternatives if stealthing. 

[adrianf74]

Welcome to making the "step up" from internal mics -- it's something you won't regret.

There are many of us around these parts who've run various "small mics" over the years (myself included) and I've run the CA-14 omnis, cards and CA-11 Series II omnis in the past (amongst AT943, Countryman B3, DPA 4061, and currently AT853s and AKG actives). 

The CA-14 and CA-11 mics are _very similar_ but do have some sonic differences that Chris has pointed out in the past few months and can be read here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=162689.msg2045114#msg2045114

Myself, I listen to a varied selection of artists so I can appreciate what you're trying to do.   Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all" mic in this world.  As you may have noticed by some of the signatures of other members (and myself), we tend to run different mics for different situations.  That's not to say that if you have CA-11 omnis and cards or CA-14 omnis and cards with some power solution (preamp or battery box) that those would cover a good majority of your shows.  I say this because even using the best equipment (there are people on here running Schoeps Actives, for instance, and some of those recordings sound less than stellar because of the P.A. mix or the location of the taper).

That lends itself to the fact that you've heard good and bad recordings done with Chris' different lines of mics.  If you're gonna be standing, say, 2/3's of the way back to the board, you're gonna wanna run cardioid mics in a stadium/arena setting while you'd want omnis for "stack taping" at a club.   As for outdoor shows, I've got mixed feelings on cards vs. omnis: some people will say always to run cards while others (myself included) will say to run omnis when running small mics.  Active mic solutions, which we're not discussing here, are a whole different ballgame (I tend to prefer cardioid or hypercardioid mics MOST of time time when outdoors).

I know Chris has a deal on right now with the Ugly II Preamp and two CA-11 or CA-14 mics -- that would be a great starting point.  Keep in mind that you'll have to wait UP TO four weeks for the gear to built plus however long it takes to get from Hamilton, ON, Canada to your doorstep.    I'd suggest going with the CA-11 Series II omnis and cards -- they're probably his best product available at the moment.  Seeing that you'll be in "larger" venues, you'll want that sweeter high-end that he talks about.  I always found the CA-14 cardioids to be murky.  You'll also need a 1/8" to 1/8" cable to get from the preamp output to your deck's input (line in) and you might also want to find some windscreens should you be outdoors (I think Chris sells these separately).  Some people will also recommend dead rats/muppets for them outdoors and I would say that wouldn't hurt depending on how windy (or close to water) your venues might be.

Hope I've helped.

[TimeBandit]

Seeing that you'll be in "larger" venues, you'll want that sweeter high-end that he talks about.  I always found the CA-14 cardioids to be murky. 

thats i also like the ca-11 and not using the ca-14 anymore.
and ca-11 are easier to    + interchange options for card / omni capsules.
got mine for almost 3 years now. never had issues.

[Boxtool5]

Thanks to all, as mentioned I was leaning towards the 11's over the 14's. Seeing as I never want to be in small venue (night club) ever again, recording near a stack would be a rarity, I'll mostly be taping at outdoor festivals, in stadiums and small to large concert halls/amphitheaters. I think I'm on the right track with this planned purchase, I'm in Ottawa, so only a few hours drive from Hamilton (and no cross-border delays) hopefully my wait won't be too long, but I'm aware that it will take as long as it takes.
Perhaps in a years time I'll be looking for more gear, I am partial to many recordings in my collection with Senheiser mics, though a brief search had me a bit taken back by the price tag for the time being...Hopefully Senheisers or something comparable will be my next upgrade.

[pontiacb]

I've used pretty much his complete range and still use both CA11s and the CA14 cards , never got on with the omnis but others have got good results . I also use his CAFS omnis but they are so small I find them a bit fiddly to use.  If I had to choose one I would go for the CA11 cards - the CA 14s are  a lot bigger because of the windscreens. He does a lot of deals with a cheap battery box thrown in - personally I wouldn't bother with a pre amp unless you go to a lot of quiet shows, for me it's another potential source of user error in the recording chain that I can do without. 

[adrianf74]

Thanks to all, as mentioned I was leaning towards the 11's over the 14's. Seeing as I never want to be in small venue (night club) ever again, recording near a stack would be a rarity, I'll mostly be taping at outdoor festivals, in stadiums and small to large concert halls/amphitheaters. I think I'm on the right track with this planned purchase, I'm in Ottawa, so only a few hours drive from Hamilton (and no cross-border delays) hopefully my wait won't be too long, but I'm aware that it will take as long as it takes.
Perhaps in a years time I'll be looking for more gear, I am partial to many recordings in my collection with Senheiser mics, though a brief search had me a bit taken back by the price tag for the time being...Hopefully Senheisers or something comparable will be my next upgrade.

As I was mentioning, I kinda prefer omnis in smaller rooms and outdoors (especially when they're mini mics like these).   

Being a fellow Canuck, keep in mind that Chris' prices are in US$ and you'll need to add that lovely 13% Harmonized Sales Tax. 

Sennheiser mic's, IMHO, are harsher sounding.  I auditioned them at one point (the Microphone Madness HLSO and HLSC's to be exact) and even though they had clarity, I found them to be harsh.   I don't think you're gonna do much better for C$330 after tax, shipping, and a cable.   I remember paying over $650 for Sound Professional CMC-8's (based on the Audio Technica capsule) in the early 2000's when the US$ cost $1.60 to buy.  Of course, that was after shipping, duty, and taxes but I wish I had the option to buy a preamp and two mic choices at that time. 

I'd take the plunge.  It's a good deal for what you're getting.

[daspyknows]

Check the yard sale.  You might get a deal and get the mics sooner.  Big improvement over internals.

[swordfish]

I have a pair of CA 14 C/O + a CA 9100, at the present they are gathering dust..since I am using other equipment more frequently...a perfect starter set....

SF

[taper666]

I'd recommend the CA11 II series with both cap options, cheap and versatile when recording with an ugly/9200 preamp. Don't waste your hard earned bucks on DPA or Senn MKII, they are no upgrade over Chris' stuff...

[jefflester]

I see more small venue theater shows and outdoor festival shows, but I want my gear suited for stadium shows. Whenever possible I position myself at the back of floor seating or GA, typically mid-way from the sound booth to the back of the floor.

You would do yourself a great favor if you would move forward, whenever possible. Position yourself more in the location of halfway between the sound booth location and the stage, rather than behind the sound booth (if I'm reading your post correctly).

[adrianf74]

I'd recommend the CA11 II series with both cap options, cheap and versatile when recording with an ugly/9200 preamp. Don't waste your hard earned bucks on DPA or Senn MKII, they are no upgrade over Chris' stuff...

Really?

I think there are many people on here who would beg to differ on this one (myself included).  The DPA 4060's are great mics (and Chris will agree with this) but for MOST people they are not worth the extra scratch (we're talking a 6-8x difference).  For myself, I'm still out on this one, however, I would say that for the money there is simply nothing better than what Chris offers.

[yates7592]

I'd recommend the CA11 II series with both cap options, cheap and versatile when recording with an ugly/9200 preamp. Don't waste your hard earned bucks on DPA or Senn MKII, they are no upgrade over Chris' stuff...

Really?

I think there are many people on here who would beg to differ on this one (myself included).  The DPA 4060's are great mics (and Chris will agree with this) but for MOST people they are not worth the extra scratch (we're talking a 6-8x difference).  For myself, I'm still out on this one, however, I would say that for the money there is simply nothing better than what Chris offers.

Adrian's right. There are several more expensive mics that are an upgrade to the Church Audio mics. But the CA-14 and CA-11 represent the best bang for the buck and I doubt you would be disappointed with the results.

[taper666]

I know it's a question of personal taste. The DPA 4061 mics are very overrated in my mind. They are perfect for  but made for recording speech and are useful mics for stack - and only stack recording - if you are in the perfect spot and no-one is talking around you. Anyway low end sounds quite muffled as most lavalier mics. Any AT853 or CA11 or 14 are much more value for the money. If you want to use DPA 4061 mics buy them new - don't get used sweated out ebay mics - that's also a Chris' statement about those mics. So before buying two new 4061 mics I'd rather spend my money on an active solution. Nope, I'd never buy those mics again. But as I said before, it is a question of personal taste and we are lucky enough to have enough samples on archive/dime to check.

[adrianf74]

I know it's a question of personal taste. The DPA 4061 mics are very overrated in my mind. They are perfect for  but made for recording speech and are useful mics for stack - and only stack recording - if you are in the perfect spot and no-one is talking around you. Anyway low end sounds quite muffled as most lavalier mics. Any AT853 or CA11 or 14 are much more value for the money. If you want to use DPA 4061 mics buy them new - don't get used sweated out ebay mics - that's also a Chris' statement about those mics. So before buying two new 4061 mics I'd rather spend my money on an active solution. Nope, I'd never buy those mics again. But as I said before, it is a question of personal taste and we are lucky enough to have enough samples on archive/dime to check.

/SOAPBOX ON

Taper666, you need to compare apples to apples.  The DPA 4061's are strictly OMNIDIRECTIONAL mics so you need to compare these to, say, AT853 omnis, Countryman B3's, CA-14 omnis and CA-11 omnis (all of which I've run including Squidly Diddly and Core Sound Binaurals back in the '90s).  To me, the DPA 4061's did a great job in any spot and handled bass very well (I've been in some very bassy situations with the 4061's and MUFFLED is one word I'd never use to describe them). 

And those samples on Archive/DIME are just that; if the mix is lousy, the recording's (usually) gonna be equally poor.  Unless I know how the person recorded it and what it sounds like at the time it was recorded, I can't say that's 'enough' to go by.

Then there's the issue of being in the perfect spot.  This is critical with cardioid mics but omnis are a little more forgiving if you're up close. If you stand, say, half-way from the board to the stage DFC and run omnis and cards, the cards will likely sound better but that's because of your location.  If you're running cardioids up close, that can be a hit or miss proposition.  Of course, I'm talking about a 1500 capacity club at this point.  I've run omnis from the 12th row on the floor of an 11,000 capacity hockey arena and have had great results.  I've also run cardioid (AT933's) from the 5th row just below the stacks at an 18,000 capacity venue and have gotten great results.  There is no "one size fits all" for this hobby.  Again, everything is venue dependent.

I know you also run AKG actives and I was strongly contemplating getting CK62 caps for outdoors until I was reminded that full sized omnis are, realistically, a losing proposition.  In my case, I'd love the option of running omnis as a second pair on the same stand (from time to time) but then I thought about the fact that I'd need PFA'd Active Cables, CK62 Caps and a 4-channel deck capable of XLR input and 1/8" (say, an R-26).  When I buy all that I'm looking at $1200.  For about 1/2 to 2/3 of that, I can get some decent 4060's, and a used preamp and run to, say, a DR-2D.  There isn't a real gain in dropping extra money and you'd be hard pressed to say that the CK62's are "better" than the 4060's (or CA-11's or CA-14's or AT-853 omnis -- which I currently own).


Ultimately, it all depends on what your going to be using the mics for but I would _NEVER_ say that what you said about the 4061's -- personally, IMHO, I always found them a touch bright but that's their "sound" and the bump in the higher frequencies is responsbible for that.

/SOAPBOX OFF

[earmonger]

I want to re-emphasize a point that was made earlier. If you are are recording loud bands like Tool, you don't need a preamp--all you need is a battery box.

[Church-Audio]

I want to re-emphasize a point that was made earlier. If you are are recording loud bands like Tool, you don't need a preamp--all you need is a battery box.

This customer wants to record and I quote "I want my equipment geared towards taping Tool (or other "prog", loud, quiet,loud)"

So yeah a preamp would be a good idea. In this case will he need much gain for loud shows no. My mics put out about -35 at 114db at 1k. So there are lots of reasons why you would want or need a preamp especially if you dont want to use your recorders gain. And like you mentioned there are situations where a battery box will work the only issue is sometimes you never know what you need until your at the venue. So if you have the $$ its better to get something that will do everything. Then something that will only do very loud shows.

[yates7592]

I want to re-emphasize a point that was made earlier. If you are are recording loud bands like Tool, you don't need a preamp--all you need is a battery box.

This customer wants to record and I quote "I want my equipment geared towards taping Tool (or other "prog", loud, quiet,loud)"

So yeah a preamp would be a good idea. In this case will he need much gain for loud shows no. My mics put out about -35 at 114db at 1k. So there are lots of reasons why you would want or need a preamp especially if you dont want to use your recorders gain. And like you mentioned there are situations where a battery box will work the only issue is sometimes you never know what you need until your at the venue. So if you have the $$ its better to get something that will do everything. Then something that will only do very loud shows.

Chris, you say your mics put out -35 at 114db - what units is this in - dB or what,

[Church-Audio]

I want to re-emphasize a point that was made earlier. If you are are recording loud bands like Tool, you don't need a preamp--all you need is a battery box.

This customer wants to record and I quote "I want my equipment geared towards taping Tool (or other "prog", loud, quiet,loud)"

So yeah a preamp would be a good idea. In this case will he need much gain for loud shows no. My mics put out about -35 at 114db at 1k. So there are lots of reasons why you would want or need a preamp especially if you dont want to use your recorders gain. And like you mentioned there are situations where a battery box will work the only issue is sometimes you never know what you need until your at the venue. So if you have the $$ its better to get something that will do everything. Then something that will only do very loud shows.

Chris, you say your mics put out -35 at 114db - what units is this in - dB or what,

I am always talking in db..

[F.O.Bean]

I want to re-emphasize a point that was made earlier. If you are are recording loud bands like Tool, you don't need a preamp--all you need is a battery box.

This customer wants to record and I quote "I want my equipment geared towards taping Tool (or other "prog", loud, quiet,loud)"

So yeah a preamp would be a good idea. In this case will he need much gain for loud shows no. My mics put out about -35 at 114db at 1k. So there are lots of reasons why you would want or need a preamp especially if you dont want to use your recorders gain. And like you mentioned there are situations where a battery box will work the only issue is sometimes you never know what you need until your at the venue. So if you have the $$ its better to get something that will do everything. Then something that will only do very loud shows.

I have run CA14 cards AND omnis, and a 9100 preamp, and for the $$$, its BY FAR the best bang for your buck IMO! Like Chris said, you may not NEED a preamp at most times, but why risk it? AND the preamps Chris makes can be used just like a battery box. Just keep the gain low on it and voila, you have a preamp acting like a battery box And Chris' gear is so cheap compared to most other external mics/preamps, then its VERY AFFORDABLE to just get a CA 9100/9200, especially since he ALWAYS has a sale going on for each and every month. The OP already has the Sony M10, so ALL he needs is a pair of CA mics, whether they are CA11s or CA14s, a CA preamp, and an 1/8">1/8" cable, and BAM, he has a low cost but good quality super small rig

And I disagree with the omnis in small rooms move. There are usually ALOT of drunks at small venues/bars and are SUPER CHATTY most of the times. Running omnis in that scenario is just going to give you a tape with LOUD chatty cathys but amplified 10x I have run a few diff omni rigs over the years, and Ive NEVER exactly been happy with damn near all of them. 99% of the time I ran omnis, I would have rather run Cards or Hypers But as always, YMMV and EVERYONE has their own opinion! So I would go to archive.org and listen to as many samples as you can, because NOONE can decide for you, and in the end, YOU have to be happy with YOUR rig, because you'll be the one listening to it the most

[hoppedup]

Here are a few of my better tapes in various venue types with both omnis and cards:

CA-14 omnis> CA-9100, 12" split directly in front of 5 piece unamplified: http://archive.org/details/possumjenkins2012-11-04.CA-14.flac24
CA-14 omnis> CA-9100 stealthing outdoors at festival (~80 feet from stage/PA): http://archive.org/details/dalewatson2012-09-15.CA-14omni.flac24
CA-14 omnis> CA-9100 on stage for instrumental band: http://archive.org/details/dqb2012-06-24.CA-14omni.flac24
CA-14 omnis> CA-9100 outdoors running open: https://soundcloud.com/hoppedup/jackmaverick2010-08-2125

CA-14 cards> CA-9100 in a 800 capacity venue: http://archive.org/details/americanaquarium2012-08-25.CA-14.flac24
CA-14 cards> CA-9100 outside at a festival: http://archive.org/details/billybragg2013-09-21.CA-14.flac24
CA-14 cards> CA-9100 in an old movie theater turned music venue: http://archive.org/details/yarn2012-09-29.CA-14.flac24
CA-14 cards> CA-9100 in a 100 seat venue: http://archive.org/details/twodollarpistols2011-05-20.flac16
CA-11 cards> Church Audio ST-20? in a 250 seat venue: http://archive.org/details/nrps2009-08-09

I've never been an arena or stadium guy. You also have John Prine and Emmylou in the original post. You're going to want a pre-amp to tape these kinds of acts. I've had the 9100 for about 4 years and it has performed flawlessly. I wish I had the 9200 for its extra gain because I tape a lot of acoustic and singer-songwriter kinda stuff. You can also use the 9100 pre-amp to attenuate if you are taping really loud shows.

I started with CA-11 cards in 2008 then moved to the CA-14 c&o in 2009 and have been running them ever since. Haven't really felt the upgrade itch. After some trial and error, my preference for stealth is to use omnis and get close to the source.

[andy_landy]

my preference for stealth is to use omnis and get close to the source.

this.

and whoever was hating on the dpa406x earlier - i beg to disagree. they are, in my opinion, a very fine mic indeed. although obviously i'm biased as i have two pairs

[nulldogmas]

my preference for stealth is to use omnis and get close to the source.

this.

Having just done some first-hand comparisons of stealthy omnis and cards (see the "CA-14 vs CSB deathmatch" thread I just started elsewhere on the site), I'm inclined to agree.

[TimeBandit]

my preference for stealth is to use omnis and get close to the source.

this.

+1

[ravingandrooling]

From my limited experience, I have found that when all the conditions are "just right" eg- no talkers, good location, good venue, sound system that I have gotten some fabulous pulls with the 4061's.  On the other hand, I get good to very good pulls from my CA14 cards most of the time even if all conditions are not optimal.  I rarely run my 4061's unless I'm running the cards as a backup at the same time.  I also no longer run a preamp.  To my ears running mic in on the M10 (with battery box) sounds no different than when I ran an external pre. 

[taper666]

"I rarely run my 4061's unless I'm running the cards as a backup at the same time"

wish I had done that, lost some nice shows while using the DPA mics only...

[yates7592]

my preference for stealth is to use omnis and get close to the source.

this.

+1

^