Topic: FOB vs. Matrix in this situation

[Sloan Simpson]

I'm doing a show at a local club with a bill I put together this week. The room is rated for 450 capacity, although I've been to shows with about twice that stuffed in there. In any case, my show will be fairly sparsely attended. 

The room is a square, with the soundboard along the back wall. For many years I've recorded with mics at about the middle of the room. Recently I've added a DR-680 and have down a few matrices, which of course requires me to be at the back of the room. The matrices have turned out well, but all of them were at fairly crowded shows.

I came to the venue recently to see a friend (who also has a DR-680) taping from the FOB spot. When I asked why he wasn't doing a matrix, he said that the mic position for a matrix doesn't sound good with a smaller crowd.

I really hadn't thought about the number of bodies in the room impacting reflections, etc. that much. Any thoughts on which you would go for? I'm thinking we'll probably only have about 50 people in the room.

[obaaron]

I record in a similar room (bar) quite often here in San Diego. (square-ish, board at back right, holds ~250).    I have come to the conclusion that SBD with mics onstage is really the only way to go to avoid too much chatter and glass clanking around.  The onstage mics really fill out the SBD which is  usually very heavy on vocals, keys, horns, etc.  I have tried the DFC/FOB aus mics but in venues this size everyone typically migrates to that space and get way too much yappin for my taste.

It sounds like you will have free reign at this show, so if that's the case, that's how I would roll!


edit:  This of course would require to have two recording decks (or REAL long XLR's lol) and aligning in post...easy though with an onstage source.

Good luck!

[ScoobieKW]

Tip for running onstage and soundboard.

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake. If so, patch into the snake onstage and patch out from the snake at FOH. If no channels are free, ask about returns. Either run the deck onstage or use some male to male and female to female cable XLR cables/barrels to change the gender of the returns.

[page]

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake.

I've even sent a sbd feed or other channel feed back to the stage as that was easier than shipping my channels back to the sbd. Just takes a bunch of gender benders.

For the original question, I think bvaz has what I'd do; take a sbd feed of what they think is deficient from the stage sound, then do an onstage pair to compensate. If you only have 4 channels available, that's it. If you have more, then you can start to get fancy with having a pair at the sbd for ambiance between songs or during a swell, one on stage for the general mix fill, and the sbd feed for the other half of the mix (in theory).

[ScoobieKW]

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake.

I've even sent a sbd feed or other channel feed back to the stage as that was easier than shipping my channels back to the sbd. Just takes a bunch of gender benders.

For the original question, I think bvaz has what I'd do; take a sbd feed of what they think is deficient from the stage sound, then do an onstage pair to compensate. If you only have 4 channels available, that's it. If you have more, then you can start to get fancy with having a pair at the sbd for ambiance between songs or during a swell, one on stage for the general mix fill, and the sbd feed for the other half of the mix (in theory).

All good advice. another option for mics 5&6 are two shotguns or hypercardioid mics onstage aimed at the audience.

[Sloan Simpson]

While I think onstage access might be possible sometime in the future, there will be a number of stress factors at this show that make me want to not spring something new on the club. They are used to me in the middle of the room, or back by the board, but I want to make their night trouble-free otherwise (several things have gone wrong in the planning of this show).

I would have leaned toward doing the matrix until my friend advised against it. I'm just unsure of how much the room being empty will detract from having my mics that far back.

[ScoobieKW]

Empty rooms have less talkers.

 

Free Jazz FTW

[Sloan Simpson]

Yeah if I have a talker problem that won't be too bad, because it will mean some people actually showed up 

One of my acts is an ambient guitar drone thing, which can certainly be yapped over. The other two are pretty damn loud rock bands (Five Eight and Motherf*cker), so chatter won't really be an issue. I guess I was thinking in terms of room reflections being absorbed.

[deadheadcorey]

Tip for running onstage and soundboard.

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake. If so, patch into the snake onstage and patch out from the snake at FOH. If no channels are free, ask about returns. Either run the deck onstage or use some male to male and female to female cable XLR cables/barrels to change the gender of the returns.

this.

[F.O.Bean]

I ALWAYS run FOB/DFC in a few small clubs/bars here in Pittsburgh, and I'd rather have an FOB/DFC DAUD rather than having a SBD/DAUD matrix from the back of the room!

[page]

how balanced do you think the sbd feed will be? Can you get a submix? If that's moot then my last suggestion is this:

One option would be to ask for the feed and not use it until you need it (or use it with an M10 type recorder) and run up front. If things get hairy or you want to retreat, then you don't have to bug them, just go back to the sbd and plug in.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

When I started going to shows early, for sound check, I was really surprised at what a difference the empty room made.  The sound that is able to reflect off the bare floor vs. the comb filtering of higher frequencies that results from fabric covered bodies.  So it was kinda funny to be standing on a ladder, trying to evaluate the tone for the optimal mic placement.  Still useful experience, but it does not necessarily translate to the full venue.

I suppose it's yet another reason why the sound needs to be adjusted as the venue fills.

[Sloan Simpson]

My latest thought is to borrow my friend's 680 and run it separately on the board, with mine running up front. I hate dealing with the drift but that will probably give me the best to work with.

[Gutbucket]

Nothing much to add, mostly just confirming:

First choice of an onstage pair (with optional audience facing pair from stage) + SBD all recorded to the DR-680 using the venue's snake.

If that's out, use both of your recorders and..

Either expand on your known good setup without stressing out yourself and the venue-
AUD pair from your regular FOB spot, plus SBD to your M10.
(that gets you your standard AUD and lets you sync and matrix it with the SBD if you care to make the effort)

Or if it's cool to put mics onstage, but not use the snake-
Put the DR-680 onstage with a pair (or three or four) plus the optional aud facing pair. SBD to your M10 in back.
(that may get you everything you really need on the DR-680 alone, plus the SBD to sync and matrix with it if necessary)

Substitute your friend's DR-680 for the M10 back at the board if you like.  Oh, and eventhough Scoob mentions shotguns or supercards for the optional audience facing mics from the stage, that pair can be useful regardless of mic pattern, so if you have an extra pair of cardioids or omnis and the time to set them up without stressing things, go ahead and use them.  You don't have to use those channels but may as well run 'em if you got 'em.

[danlynch]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

[ScoobieKW]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

[Gutbucket]

Actually, here's a better variant on the 'expanding upon your known good' setup I mentioned earlier-

Swap the M10 and the DR-680.  Run your AUD mics located at your normal FOB position into the M10 since you only need to record two channels there.  That moves the DR-680 back to the board location to record the 2ch SBD mix, leaving an additional 4 channels on that machine to which you could record ambient room mics at the board location, submixes or individual board channels. 

That provides you with lots of options without changing things too much and lets you push the optional complications to the end of your setup after your FOB pair and SBD pair are set.  If everything goes smoothly you can go bananas with the extra channels you have available back there.  If not you can forget about the extra stuff and fall back on your FOB pair and a straight SBD pair.  Well hedged.

[edit- I'd still prefer mics on stage, but if that's out of the question this is a good, relatively low-stress option]

[F.O.Bean]

Actually, here's a better variant on the 'expanding upon your known good' setup I mentioned earlier-

Swap the M10 and the DR-680.  Run your AUD mics located at your normal FOB position into the M10 since you only need to record two channels there.  That moves the DR-680 back to the board location to record the 2ch SBD mix, leaving an additional 4 channels on that machine to which you could record ambient room mics at the board location, submixes or individual board channels. 

That provides you with lots of options without changing things too much and lets you push the optional complications to the end of your setup after your FOB pair and SBD pair are set.  If everything goes smoothly you can go bananas with the extra channels you have available back there.  If not you can forget about the extra stuff and fall back on your FOB pair and a straight SBD pair.  Well hedged.

100% agreed! great  info!

[page]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

[ScoobieKW]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

+1

[F.O.Bean]

I feel left out. I have been recording for a pretty long time, and have MAYBE patched from a SBD 10 times MAX!!! I guess if I did more often I would def have a 680!!!

[danlynch]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

I agree that's the best possible scenario, but that's not always possible or not always something the FOH wants to do.

[Gutbucket]

Bean, IMO a truely perfect AUD needs no SBD with which to matrix.  Of couse much of what makes that perfection possible is well outside of our control. Perhaps you've had the cosmic luck to nail a near-perfect AUD most every time. 

[page]

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

I agree that's the best possible scenario, but that's not always possible or not always something the FOH wants to do.

yeah I agree, it's not always possible. 

its one of those reasons that I try and make friends with the venue staff; my odds of getting them to do that improves.

[taperj]

Just one point to add about this kind of situation, taped from the back of the room a sparse room with just a few talkers makes your ear really go to the talkers on the tape(even with a SBD feed to mix in), I've had this happen at venues in Chicago that are about the same kind of room you're talking about taping. A packed room with everyone talking and hooting almost becomes white noise, your ear doesn't get drawn to it so much. I'd probably be doing a pair on-stage(through the snake)+SBD. Also remember when using more mics there can be more cancellation, I'd lay down all the pairs on separate tracks and mix in post to be sure you get just the sound you are looking for. Good luck with it, hope it turns out great 

[Phil Zone]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

Why would you need that? Wouldn't you normally still run it through your preamps like normal. Just patching out where snake opens by the sbd

[acidjack]

I know there are those who claim FOB AUDs are better than matrixes. I am not one of those people.

If the FOH is competent/the board mix includes most of the instruments, I'd take matrix every single time. It's just less unpredictable - less guarding your stand, less chance of some idiot talking under it.  You know the SBD won't have an idiot talking in it, no matter what else happens.

Obviously onstage+SBD is ideal, and I've done it by just running a long cable back (taped down carefully). But if not, assuming the SBD is a fairly full mix, I'd take the matrix.

[Gutbucket]

I agree with that.  The truly perfect AUD which doesn't benefit from at least a touch of (decent) SBD is a rare breed.. those with vocals on the endangered list.  Always best to hedge one's bet IMO and record the SBD if possible without hassle.  One needn't (over)use it just because it's recorded, but I'm already on record around here for advocating not going overboard with too much SBD in the matrix.  That always seems a crutch for a shity AUD to me and takes the focus off the skill and effort required to make truly great live recordings.  Anyone can patch into the board, it takes learned skill to make a truly great AUD.

I'm amazed at how well on-stage can work to reduce, not eliminate, quite bad crowd yap that is simply depressingly annoying out in the room, and even without any SBD if it's an appropriate instrumental band.  I mostly do a pretty good job of avoiding those situations, but had one last month that turned out much better than I expected it would from actually being there.  Something of a pleasant surprise.

[danlynch]

This is an example of an onstage with minimal soundboard (maybe 20% board):
http://www.nyctaper.com/2013/12/the-notekillers-november-5-2013-trans-pecos-flacmp3streaming/

Its a small room and the show wasn't packed, so I was able to run my cables (taped down) all the way to the board on the side of the stage.  No vocals, so I only really "needed" the board for the saxophone in one song.  I love how the guitar is heavier in the right channel and the bass heavier in the left, and drums centered.  A real "soundstage".

[F.O.Bean]

Bean, IMO a truely perfect AUD needs no SBD with which to matrix.  Of couse much of what makes that perfection possible is well outside of our control. Perhaps you've had the cosmic luck to nail a near-perfect AUD most every time. 

No luck here But I must admit, since getting my schoeps back in 2011, I honestly can't think of ONE recording I haven't been happy with

[Sloan Simpson]

I ended up borrowing a friend's 680 to run at the board, and will run my rig in the FOB spot.

Now I just need a crowd to turn out for the show 

[Marshall7]

Now I just need a crowd to turn out for the show 

sounds like the same problem I had when I put on a few shows.  Good luck, Sloan!

[Sloan Simpson]

It ended up being one of those shows where the audience tape turned out so well I don't really see a point in mixing the soundboard in  The crowd was a respectable size, but everyone was into the music and didn't yap 

[obaaron]

Nice glad to hear it worked out!

[Gutbucket]

Score!

[F.O.Bean]

SCHWEET Sloan

[baustin]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

as i rarely tape anymore, this is how i pretty much exclusively run these days

[morst]

I have two M10's, and prefer to run one off the SBD, and one in the sweet spot, and "deal with the drift." If the SBD is AT the sweet spot, then the best move is to use a multitrack rig (even the R44 works great) so you don't have to deal with clock drift. On the other hand, Picklemic runs R44, and prefers mics on-stage > snake > R44 + SBD > R44, and gets great results too.

Glad it worked out for ya.

[ScoobieKW]

On the other hand, Picklemic runs R44, and prefers mics on-stage > snake > R44 + SBD > R44, and gets great results too.

Picklemic prefers it because he understands a fundamental rule of mixing live music. The PA is for sound reinforcement. In all but large venue shows, it's job is to add what's missing from the stage volume. Amps and Drums are loudest on stage, and vocals, keys, kick drum often need reinforcement in the PA.

In other words,

PA + Onstage Volume = Audience mix

So when you're taping
SBD + Onstage = What the audience heard but clearer and less room interaction
SBD + Audience you are mixing SBD with SBD + Onstage Volume not as natural of a balance.

So, what I like to do is,

SBD + Onstage + Audience (Audience needs time alignment)
SBD + Onstage + Stage mics aimed at audience

This gives you live ambience with clarity, and the ability to adjust for loud crowds.

[morst]

SBD + Onstage + Audience (Audience needs time alignment)

YES in case nobody else mentioned this, the audience recording from anywhere past the "speaker plane" (typically somewhere near the stage lip) will require not just a clock drift match, but a time shift to line up with the direct SBD feed. Excellent point Scoobie!

[danlynch]

"SBD + Audience you are mixing SBD with SBD + Onstage Volume not as natural of a balance."

Can you explain what you mean by this, but I think I disagree in part if you're saying what I think you're saying.

[ScoobieKW]

OK, in the room at the show, what you hear is a combination of

A. The sound of the instruments onstage. Drums, Amps
B. The PA. This is a mix of instruments to balance out the different volumes coming off stage. Vocals, kick drum, some bass, keys are often predominant in the PA.

So, think of mics in the audience as A+B.

If you combine audience mics with a soundboard, you are emphasizing the PA mix by adding in more PA (B) to an already balanced mix (A+B).

If you combine onstage mics with audience mics, you are emphasizing the onstage sound by adding in more Stage (A) to the already balanced mix (A+B)

If you combine onstage mics + a soundboard you can mix the same balance of Stage (A) and PA (B) to get a clean sound (A+B) but the only audience you'll get is bleed into the onstage mics. This is often too dry for one who prefers audience tapes.

The Six channel approach solves this. Onstage (A) + Soundboard (B) + Audience mics (A+B).

I'm not saying that audience and soundboard can't sound good, but that it has a flavor due to which sources you are mixing.

[danlynch]

I agree that the 6-mic approach is ideal, but of course its not always possible.

Now this:
"If you combine audience mics with a soundboard, you are emphasizing the PA mix by adding in more PA (B) to an already balanced mix (A+B)."

I agree that in a perfect setting ("already balanced mix") the room mics are emphasizing what is essentially the board feed.  This is especially true in a "pointed at stacks" or a "stack tape".  But in practice, the reality is quite often different.  I can't count how many times the vocals or the keys have been so buried in the room mix that the mixed-in board feed literally saved a recording from the trash bin.  We record in a lot of small to medium sized rooms where sometimes the placement of our mics is close enough to be a semi-onstage, so its even another kind of mix.  The point I guess is that everything is relative, and in many situations the choice about how to approach the recording is specific to the room.

[ScoobieKW]

I forgot to add the important caveat,

"With a good engineer at FOH"

Without a good engineer in the room, I'd rather bring out my 16 track interface and mix the band later at home.