Topic: Straight Aud/SBD vs. Multitrack

[Blues Overboard]

Hey All,
I tape in a very small club DFC but have been somewhat unsatisfied with the results. I

1. The vocals seem misplaced within the sound field. Instrument placement is fine. I attribute this largely to an odd PA layout in an L-shaped room. PA is used strictly for sound reinforcement of vocals/horns.
2. Too much crowd noise

I'm as close to the band as I can get while recording 2ch. Any closer and I'll lose the PA. I've got permission to patch into the PA (Mackie 808S) and go 4 ch. with my R-44, allowing me to move my mics "onstage."

Here comes my problem...even if I do this I've come to find that the artist pans all the mic channels to CENTER(it's a small room, so it only makes sense), so I don't see there being much to gain UNLESS I split the 3 or 4 mic channels and route them to my own preamp such as an SD 442 or similar and mix that down to 2 ch. and into the R-44. Yes, I AM crazy, but am I being stupid here? If I'm on the right track can I split these mic signals(from the PA) directly, as opposed to using isolated splitters for each ?

TIA

Conan

[yousef]

I'm not sure I completely understand the question but if I'm getting the jist of it, you're intending to mix the vocals on the fly while committing them to two channels which I think may well be tricky to balance unless you can effectively isolate yourself from the room sound.

I think your options will depend on the facilities of the mixing desk (direct outs/insert points/free aux sends and the ability to do a bespoke recording mix at the desk) and the line-up of the band. If there are no available directs, inserts or aux sends then you will indeed need (good) splitters.

If there were just two vocalists, I'd be tempted to send the ambient mics to two tracks of your recorder and use the remaining two for a vocal each. Sounds like you have 3x vox plus horns though... maybe send all the horns to one track, vocals get a channel each and the room mics go to a separate recorder then mix it together in post?

In truth, I think you may not be able to easily square this circle without more channels to record to or your own means of mixing everything you're getting from the board plus whatever mics you have in the room and/or onstage - maybe a little 8-channel mixer and some good isolating headphones?

One final thought occurs to me: surely the sound is good somewhere in the room? Maybe this could be as simple as forsaking 'DFC'...

[Blues Overboard]

yousef,

The thought of mixing the vocals/horns on the fly is indeed what I'm thinking of. It might take a few attempts but I think I'll find the levels pretty quickly, as this band plays weekly, and the lineup changes little. There are no direct outs for me on this PA. Don't get me wrong, I'm in the sweetest spot in the room - it's just that I'd like to be catching the left vox on the left, right vox on right, etc. The horns come in pretty much where they belong irrespective of their miking (I'm that close). I'd mike the vocals myself, but after their first set it becomes an open mike affair(Not with MY mikes you won't!). Could I use XLR splitter cables directly to a small mixer, or do I have to use isolated splitters?

Conan

[yousef]

Sounds like a good thing you've got going there - I like the idea of revisiting the same basic set-up repeatedly and honing technique...

I think you'd probably get away with using simple unisolated spilts but I imagine that would be very much at the discretion of your soundman. To be fair, isolated splitters seem very reasonably priced in the US (I'm assuming that's where you are) so it might be worth investing in an eight-channel 2-way one.

Then again, whenever we crack out our isolated splitters people seem slightly bemused and I know of several people/venues/festival crew who use nothing but simple splits. Still, I'd prefer getting smirked at to be being blamed for wrecking the sound 

btw if there are no direct outs, maybe there are some insert points? We carry a set of TRS>TS leads with the ring and tip linked so that we can plug into these and get a signal without breaking the signal path.

[ScoobieKW]

My answer to this question was to go big on a budget.

Tascam US-1800 ($199) 16 Channel USB interface. 8 phantom pre, 2 adjustable 1/4" line, 4 line, and 2 SPDIF inputs
Roland UA-5 digimod (already owned) use for Pre > SPDIF
Laptop (already owned)
ProCo 16 Channel Split snake with stagebox and 2 50' tails. (used $400, new $1400)


When I record in a challenging room, talky crowds, bartender as FOH mixer, weird layout, I haul this rig out. Depending on what mics the house is using, i'll often supplement. One small room, vocals and kick are the often the only pa channels. I'll mic the bass and guitars, add 2 overheads behind the drummer aiming at drum tops. and take a split of their channels.

I'll also record two mics in the room or onstage aimed at the crowd to keep the live feel.

Only downside I have is that 16 tracks isn't nearly as flexible as you'd think. I've had 3 nights of music in the last month that could have used 24 channels of record easily.
Behringer X32 as a 32 channel interface is on my wishlist.

[yousef]

Love the 1800 but it's amazing how quickly you can max out 16 channels... I guess a HD24 is the next step up from that but then you have the issue of getting in enough mic pres - something that has put our HD24 on the backburner on several occasions.

Digital mixer (in-venue or in-hand) sounds like a good way to go but an X32 is over £2500 over here... Could get some tasty mics and pre-amps for that money...

[runonce]

If the PA isnt being used for much - ask if they have an extra AUXs or Effects send on the board - and create your own submix from there.

[Blues Overboard]

yousef,

There are no direct outs on this mixer but I do see an insert for each channel. I understand I can use a 1/4" TRS cable plugged halfway into each for a direct out but hesitate to do so. It's got to be a "Fool Proof" setup. Are you saying I can tie those 2 leads together, fully insert that plug, and achieve my direct out with no break in signal? Would this line still carry a balanced signal? The cable run would end up being about 40'.

Thanks,
Conan

[ScoobieKW]

You lose balanced.

TRS side, short Tip to Ring.
TS side, Tip to Tip, Sleeve to Sleeve

This way fully inserted the insert hits the return path and you get an unbalanced split.

[yousef]

Our leads link the tip and ring together in the plug.

The signal isn't balanced but the insert point isn't balanced to begin with, so you've no worries there.

[kirk97132]

That Mackie 808 mixer has rec out jack (rca) and also has EQ out jacks (1/4") that can be used to get signal from.  There are no direct outs only inserts for the mic channels and only on the first six channels.  the last two are stereo iputs and do not even offer insert points.   Easiest hook up would be to take the RCA rec outs, which in essence gives you that "split" of the mono signal you are looking for.  . There is nothing to be gained by turning a mono signal into two mono signals one for each channel.  Mono is mono and two mono signals still are mono when summed(mixed) together.  I have had great success with onstage mics and a mono vocal feed.  The onstage mics give you the tereo image and the vocal feed gives you the clarity and glue to bring it all together. 

[kirk97132]

If the PA isnt being used for much - ask if they have an extra AUXs or Effects send on the board - and create your own submix from there.

Makie 808 only has an EFX send and a monitor send.  This is a very basic powered mixer.