Topic: Another Newbie Question Thread

[wharfrat48]

I'll try to keep this brief.  First I'd like to thank all the "Tapers" out there as I have been listening to your work for a few decades, and after doing very little research, I have a much better understanding of the amount of work/time that it takes to put together a good recording.  Santa brought me a Tascam DR-05 handheld for Christmas and I'd like to start recording live music in bars and at festivals.  I may eventually upgrade to external mics and a better recorder, but right now I'll be sticking with just the recorder and its internal mics.  I have already recorded a house concert, and I was pleasantly surprised with the results.  The only issue was with the audience being a little loud (I thought the mics were high enough above the crowd), any suggestions?
The main question I have is about recording from the soundboard.  If given the opportunity, should I always record from the SBD, never, or only under certain circumstances?  I know that the DR-05 cant handle a hot feed from the SBD, so I assume I'll need to ask the soundguy for a low level feed or use some attenuators.  I'm sure I'll have some more questions about SBD recording, but I'll stop here in case the consensus is that I shouldn't (or can't) record from the SBD.  Thanks for your help.

[Church-Audio]

I'll try to keep this brief.  First I'd like to thank all the "Tapers" out there as I have been listening to your work for a few decades, and after doing very little research, I have a much better understanding of the amount of work/time that it takes to put together a good recording.  Santa brought me a Tascam DR-05 handheld for Christmas and I'd like to start recording live music in bars and at festivals.  I may eventually upgrade to external mics and a better recorder, but right now I'll be sticking with just the recorder and its internal mics.  I have already recorded a house concert, and I was pleasantly surprised with the results.  The only issue was with the audience being a little loud (I thought the mics were high enough above the crowd), any suggestions?
The main question I have is about recording from the soundboard.  If given the opportunity, should I always record from the SBD, never, or only under certain circumstances?  I know that the DR-05 cant handle a hot feed from the SBD, so I assume I'll need to ask the soundguy for a low level feed or use some attenuators.  I'm sure I'll have some more questions about SBD recording, but I'll stop here in case the consensus is that I shouldn't (or can't) record from the SBD.  Thanks for your help.

SBD recording is like rolling the dice sometimes you get a good recording sometimes not. Most of the time the best recording will be with mics. If you are standing in a spot that sounds good to yours ears, chances are thats a good place to record. The mics built into your recorder are always going to record whats around them. The best way to get a more direct recording is to get closer to the source that you want to record. This changes the balance between the audience level and the sound source.. Attenuation is always an issue when taking a board feed I prefer something that can be adjusted unfortunately nobody seems to make one * maybe I will *

Most operators don't pay close attention to the level they are giving you throughout the night. So you can start off quiet and things can get pretty crazy during a show. So I would say use your internal mics until you can afford something better then look around here there are lots of used things for sale in the yard sale. Made by me and other companies. Look around on the internet for samples of the gear you are thinking of to make sure that it will meet your satisfaction level.

Everyone hears things differently. If you are happy with your recordings it does not matter what we think Good luck enjoy this hobby can be loads of fun. One side note use search here in the forum it will help you find answers to questions that have probably been asked a million times if after using search you still don't understand then by all means post away!

Chris Church
Church Audio

[yltfan]

Around here, most people will say that audience recording is better, especially in small rooms. One reason is that the soundboard often only reinforces the sound coming off the stage, so the feed you get from the soundboard (unless it's a custom mix) will often be very vocal, and/or drum heavy with little or no guitars--since the guitar amps on stage provide plenty of volume. Of course, this all depends on what kind of music you are recording. Sometimes, the soundboard feed is nicely balanced. My preferred method of recording is to record the soundboard feed, a nice audience source, and a pair of mics onstage, and then mixing them together.

Good luck, and welcome to the world of taping.

[Gutbucket]

..get closer to the source that you want to record.

..Everyone hears things differently. If you are happy with your recordings it does not matter what we think.

There is wisdom in those words.

Here's a tip on getting closer to the actual source- Instead of relying on your eyes tell you about the primary sound source, use your ears instead.  Always follow your ears, but then get the recorder a little closer than you would if simply listening.  Your brain has built-in advantages which makes things sound more acceptable from farther away compared to a stereo recording.  And here's an extension of that- If the recorder is closer to the audience than the talent at a house concert, the audience will sound both louder and closer than the talent on the recording, which may seem obvious when taking about it, but is not the subjective exerience we have at the live event when we mentally focus on the performer instead of the audience.

[Marshall7]

Attenuation is always an issue when taking a board feed I prefer something that can be adjusted unfortunately nobody seems to make one * maybe I will *

Not fully adjustable, but it does offer three settings:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68600-REG/Shure_A15AS_A15AS_In_Line_Attenuator.html/c/product/#inpage:IN+STOCK

I'm sure a fully adjustable one, or at least one with more settings, would be a good seller, Chris.

[wharfrat48]

Thanks for the replies.  Sounds like I should stay away from the soundboard for now, so that makes things a bit more simple anyway.  If/when I end up going with external mikes, is the DR-05 a decent enough recorder to start with?

[Gutbucket]

It'll do fine.  The most important things (at least those within your control) are the actual recording position, and then the microphones and the way you set them up.  Pretty much that in order.

[splumer]

Thanks for the replies.  Sounds like I should stay away from the soundboard for now, so that makes things a bit more simple anyway.  If/when I end up going with external mikes, is the DR-05 a decent enough recorder to start with?

I just got a DR-05 as a  recorder, and I love it. I've used it for three music show (Jack Johnson, Joe Michelini & Goblin, because the batteries died in my main unit) and one spoken-word performance (David Sedaris) and it's produced some great results. The battery life is phenomenal. I'm using a Sony stereo mic for now, but plan on upgrading soon. I haven't used the built-in mics yet, since it would be hard to do that in a  situation, but I have moe. coming up next month, so maybe I'll do that as a test. So yeah, I think the DR-05 is a great recorder for the money. Not the best stealth-able unit, but pretty damn good.

For a mic upgrade, I recommend Church Audio. I used a set of his once and was very pleased with the results.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

It'll do fine.  The most important things (at least those within your control) are the actual recording position, and then the microphones and the way you set them up.  Pretty much that in order.

The same tenet that holds true for Real Estate holds true for Taping:  location location location.  No amount of high-end gear can turn a bad sounding spot into the next Official Release.  But less-than-ideal equipment can record a perfectly good tape if done from the "sweet spot"...

My only advise to newbies is this:  practice.  Take your rig to local shows that mean nothing to you.  Run your levels high, then run them low, then do this, then do that.  Experiment, play around, try different things out.  That way, when you do get to that important show, you'll know how your rig works in certain situations...

Terry

[DSatz]

What Mr. Kentucky Marmalade (pants optional) said.

--best regards

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

What Mr. Kentucky Marmalade (pants optional) said.

--best regards

You can call me KY Jelly for short...

[Jonmac]

Thanks for the replies.  Sounds like I should stay away from the soundboard for now, so that makes things a bit more simple anyway.  If/when I end up going with external mikes, is the DR-05 a decent enough recorder to start with?

Here's a recording I did with my DR-05 and its internal microphones, the recorder was laid on a table about
10 feet in front of the band.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70230944/Yankee%20Doodle%20Dandy.mp3

Jon

[Phil Zone]

Thanks for the replies.  Sounds like I should stay away from the soundboard for now, so that makes things a bit more simple anyway.  If/when I end up going with external mikes, is the DR-05 a decent enough recorder to start with?

here is another recording, the room is pretty bad sounding but the mics did pretty well

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=569332

[Ultfris101]

My only advise to newbies is this:  practice.  Take your rig to local shows that mean nothing to you.  Run your levels high, then run them low, then do this, then do that.  Experiment, play around, try different things out.  That way, when you do get to that important show, you'll know how your rig works in certain situations...

Terry

Totally agree with this! I'm relatively new as well and although I've added a lot of gear and learned an enormous amount reading here, getting out and recording in different settings makes the biggest difference. I learn on my own by doing which is how I learn best anyway, and it also helped make a lot of the things people write here make more sense to me.

Try recording a feed from the soundboard and see what the results are. Try recording with the recording right up in front of the band and see how it sounds compared to what you remembered with your ears. This is one of the best parts of this hobby for me. change something up and see what difference it makes.

then when your favorite band comes through town you'll have a plan on what to do and when the inevitable curve ball gets thrown at you there will be some experience to fall back on to compensate.

[page]

What Mr. Kentucky Marmalade (pants optional) said.

--best regards

You can call me KY Jelly for short...

damn son, that just spread on super smooth... 

[stevetoney]

Taking the practice theme one step further, if you plan to stealth record, learn to operate your gear by feel.  Turn the lights out at home and learn your way around your recorder without looking.  Obviously manual level dials are better than digital button levels for this purpose, but if you're experienced you should be able to set your levels at around the right place beforehand.

[Gutbucket]

Good advice, except I take exception to the 'obvious' statement, which is simply a personal preference.  I prefer digital button control over levels in a pocket recorder rather than a potentiometer knob for a few reasons: Can be adjusted more precicely without looking (count the button presses); often less prone to accidental adjustment; exactly repeatable gain settings in descrete level increments.  Yet I fully understand that a level knob is prefered by other users.

[stevetoney]

Good advice, except I take exception to the 'obvious' statement, which is simply a personal preference.  I prefer digital button control over levels in a pocket recorder rather than a potentiometer knob for a few reasons: Can be adjusted more precicely without looking (count the button presses); often less prone to accidental adjustment; exactly repeatable gain settings in descrete level increments.  Yet I fully understand that a level knob is prefered by other users.

Interesting.  I don't stealth anymore so I haven't had to do any 'no look' taping for a long time.  I didn't realize you could set levels with button level controls without looking.  Nice!

[Gutbucket]

IME, the goal is to learn where to set it beforehand so that you have sufficinet but not excessive headroom and needn't adjust the input gain setting at all during a recording.  However, until one figures that out level checking and level adjustment durring the recording may be necessary.  I pretty much switch between two gain settings on my small pocket-recorder rig: one for jazz/classical and a lower level setting for small to medium sized PA-with-subwoofers venues.  I could cover most anything by determining one additional setting below and one setting above those for very low level material like ambinet nature recording and for super-loud stuff, but I don't typically use this rig for those things.  Finding the comfortable range to 'set and forget' is the key.

[earmonger]

And luckily recorders are more forgiving now.

I look at my recorder when the band is coming on, to make sure the levels are visible with my usual settings for my mics. And if there's a big bass buildup during the show I take a nervous look at my recorder again. But otherwise set and forget is the way to go.