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Author Topic: Team classical recording  (Read 106174 times)

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Offline Carrera2

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 01:17:40 AM »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 09:25:28 AM »
Looks like his website is down.  I tried to check something over there last week and noticed the same.  Great papers and an on-line Stereo Zoom and surround array configuration tool there, I hope it's only temporary.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline guosh86

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2009, 03:04:52 AM »
i just realised my university has a whole lot of tonmeister stuff in the library - would you guys be interested? i suppose i could put some stuff up here

regarding last night's recording, i went for ~80 degree angle, about 20cm apart. sorry, no pics though, i forgot my camera  :banging head:

doh!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2009, 09:18:45 AM »
Sure. So how'd it sound?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline guosh86

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 12:25:18 AM »
it was ok i guess, better than the ortf but still not optimal

i'll probably try to cut the room out totally the next time i record there, maybe just go a-b with cardoids :)

i was in the library the other day and i picked up some books. some interesting graphs there, combining the williams stereo zoom for hypers, cards, sub cards and omnis in a single graph. not sure if its already up but i could post it at some point


also, what kind of recordings do you guys usually do? full orchestra? chamber? wind ensembles? and what kind of sound do you guys look for when you record?

cheers!

Offline notlance

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2009, 01:28:39 PM »
I'll record just about anybody that will let me, as long as there is no PA.  Lately I have been recoding a lot of chamber music due to summer chamber music camps occurring now.  Lots of string groups ranging from duos up to 100 member string orchestras.

What do I listen for in my recordings?  Well, I try to get a good octave to octave balance.  What I most often hear is too much treble in the 4kHz to 12kHz range.  This is often the fault of SDC mics that have a "bump" in that range.  Fortunately, it's easy to eq that bump out.  Of course mic placement is important.  I try to stay away from the violins for reasons explained below.

I'm also listening for that ideal balance between room and direct sound.  What's the ideal balance?  Hell, I don't know, but I know it when I hear it.  Since I so often record live concerts and do not have a chance to move the mics after the concert begins, I do a lot of MS recording which allows me to adjust the direct and reflected sound ratio a bit after the fact.

Perhaps the hardest thing to do is get the balance between instruments to sound right since I have little control over the musicians placement in a concert setting.  In particular, getting the viola to be loud enough is very difficult because in almost every case the viola is on the right with its top surface facing away from the mics, whereas the violin is on the left with its top facing into the mics.  In addition, the higher pitch of the violin tends to cut right through the recording, and add to that the afore mentioned common SDC treble "bump" and it can sound like all violin all the time.

So I guess what I am saying is I listen for balance.  I don't want any sound to "stick out" in my recording, unless that's the way the musicians played it.

Offline JackHenry

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2009, 06:24:35 PM »
In particular, getting the viola to be loud enough is very difficult because in almost every case the viola is on the right with its top surface facing away from the mics, whereas the violin is on the left with its top facing into the mics.

Is there a way to solve this issue with just a stereo pair of mics? Does having the mics closer and higher, so it's looking more 'down' on the orchestra help? Taking this concept to the extreme, what happens if you have an ORTF set high above the middle of the orchestra looking straight down?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2009, 01:59:46 AM »
FYI:  if Bri needs to clear out old data because the DB gets too big and causes maintenance / backup problems, he's likely to start in the Miscellaneous section:  Open Forum, PZ, etc....and possibly Team Boards.  I think he's only had to clear out data once or twice, ever, and at least one of those instances focused on pictures.  Anyway, all this to say:  there's a chance Team Board threads may disapper some day.  If you want to mitigate the risk of losing content in this thread, you might consider posting in the Technical Help forums.

Good stuff here!
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Offline Gutbucket

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classical recording discussion
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2009, 09:59:36 AM »
Thanks Brian, that's an appropriate concern. Do you care to move/re-title the thread?   I started this as a team thread after the previous defacto classical recording thread which developed in rig pictures went away.  It would be a shame to loose it again.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 02:11:53 PM by Brian Skalinder »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline boojum

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2009, 05:56:49 PM »
Great thread!  And overdue.  Thanks, Lee.

I use MS for chamber groups and AB ~38 - 39cm for chorale or Jecklin disc. I like the Jecklin for its better imaging.   

The constant problem with recording live is "Do you want good sound or do you want good pictures?"  If the group wants good sound it will have to suffer the consequences of mic arrays, and sometimes weird ones like the Schoeps ball in the first post or my ugly home made Jecklin.  The MS is a good compromise for small groups like chamber as it is relatively unobtrusive, gives good imaging and is a quick and easy setup.  I know some decry it as bad mono but that has not been my experience.  I get very good stereo imaging with MS.

Glad to see this thread.

L8R
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Offline boojum

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2009, 07:06:18 PM »
Lee, regarding Williams and SRA.  I think it is best to first get the best mic placement and then work Williams from there.  I am not sure you specified getting the optimum spot as primary.  Then Williams will get you in the ballpark.  Tweaking can be done after that, but may not be necessary.  In a rush Williams' tables will be enough.  The other thing about Williams is that the angle between the cards is counter-intuitive.  One would think closer would call for wider angles and vice versa but I do not think this is the case.  Tricky bit of physics that.  ;o)

I am off tonight for my usual acoustic bluegrass jam: MS overhead aimed downward into the center of the circle from about three feet above.  Because of the awful venue this is all I have been able to get to work.  I will try to run some DPA4061's parallel with the MS soon.

Again, Lee, thanks for getting the thread started.


Cheers to all.
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Offline notlance

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2009, 09:14:56 AM »
In particular, getting the viola to be loud enough is very difficult because in almost every case the viola is on the right with its top surface facing away from the mics, whereas the violin is on the left with its top facing into the mics.

Is there a way to solve this issue with just a stereo pair of mics? Does having the mics closer and higher, so it's looking more 'down' on the orchestra help? Taking this concept to the extreme, what happens if you have an ORTF set high above the middle of the orchestra looking straight down?

Moving the mics higher helps, but in concert situations it's often hard to get them high enough without becoming too visually obtrusive.  Moving them closer makes the balance shift more towards the violins, unless, as you proposed, you move them into the middle of the orchestra.  I've never had the balls to ask if I can put my mic stand in the middle of the woodwinds, but go for it and report back, please.  I've had some luck with moving the mics left of center to get the violins off axis.

In general, the smaller the group the easier it is to find a good position since small changes can make a big difference.  It all works out fine unless the musicians move during the concert.  On Saturday, I recorded a concert consisting of 9 separate chamber groups ranging from duets to octets.  The stage crew seemed to set up each group in a slightly different position relative to my mic stand; I think they were messin' with me.  Oh well, the music sounded great, and it was a learning experience for me.

Offline live2496

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2009, 01:43:52 PM »
RE: balance
I think I would shoot for making it sound as realistic as possible for a person in the audience. Not every listening position is the same, but you don't want to be too close otherwise some instruments will dominate the overall sound. If too far away you will get too much room sound. Make it sound good to you.

I attended Beethoven's 9th in Dallas last fall. That requires a big orchestra and choir. They had outer omni mics on each flank as well as a stereo pair in the middle. Also mics were flown close to the different sections of the choir. I would use flanking mics if you have a big group.

I have also seen them use a spot mic on a guest cello player in one case. They needed to get close to get him at the right level in the mix, but they added some reverb on the fly to give it some room sound to balance it out with the rest of the orchestra.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2009, 02:28:50 PM »
No, not an error.  In response to my post about Team Board threads, the OP asked me to move it.
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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2009, 07:59:52 PM »
joining thread - recording chamber music is the most rewarding thing i can think of.  generally serious musicians trying very hard to do something correctly.  and you can actually (depending on the performance, of course) acheive professional sounding results with nothing but a decent ORTF pair and a nice space. 

please keep posting pictures of your setups - always fun to see.  this might also be a good thread to start posting short clips of various mics for comparison (like multiple pairs of ORTF setups at a single performance), and comparisons of various stereo arrangments (ORTF vs NOS vs AB vs jecklin, etc).   i've got a couple of clips i can post of ORTF vs spaced omnis on a flute piano duo.

 

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