Topic: Power Supply for Nbox instead of 9V

[gngrbrdman13]

Nick stated to me in conversation that he felt there might be a way to make an internal power supply while also being able to use 9V when necessary ie. festies where 4 hours aint cuttin it.  He and I were looking at some pics of an oade 248 and the power supply in it.  When you open these 2 pieces of gear there are many similarities. 

Nick:  Will you please look at the things FreeLunch and others wrote on Craig T V3 for sale thread and post your thoughts?

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=55733.0

You and I have had many conversations about the power on the Nbox and people really want some help with this 9V issue.  It seems to be a road block for people in buying the gear.

I also heard through the grape vine that a MG nbox is in the works.  The collettes have been machined and now some other research needs to be done on developing an 'active' setup for it.

raoulduke:  Will you post some photos of the inside of your JKLabs box if there are none up already (sorry I have not looked).  Also Nick maybe able to fix these boxes since dude 'took the money and ran'  I am not in any way committing you to this Nick you will have to let us know if you are able to do so.  These kids need that box supported.

Nick it would benefit all of us if you posted about this issue and more importantly were able to develop a rechargeable system.

Peas,

dd

[Sanjay]

You should be able to make an external NBOX source by adding a DC in to the box, parallel to the battery circuit and then plugging in a straight wal mart dvd battery. 

[schoepsnbox]

What a way to put me on the spot....Thanks todd  

Looks like I have some big stockins to fill

The above mentioned is true and is currently in the works.  Gonna take some critical engineering to design a dc to dc converter that will have a low noise fiqure. 

[gngrbrdman13]

What a way to put me on the spot....Thanks todd  

Looks like I have some big stockins to fill

The above mentioned is true and is currently in the works.  Gonna take some critical engineering to design a dc to dc converter that will have a low noise fiqure. 

we would all love brand new rechargable batts in our stockings this christmas.  the kids can wait we need our batts 

Thanks for posting Nick!!  We look forward to hearing about what you come up with.  Looks like Sanjay had some ideas.  Did you look at the link I posted above?  There was some information there too!

[Chris K]

schoepsnbox, my 9v wal-mart type battery is at your disposal

[gngrbrdman13]

schoepsnbox, my 9v wal-mart type battery is at your disposal

After further consideration will this work?  Wouldnt we need 4?  What are the mA on that batt Chris? 

IMO the way to do this would be to have the rechargable system fit inside the Nbox so that there is no 'extra' gear for me to forget at home....he he he

[Chris K]

the 9v is 5400mah

i belive freelunch was looking for a powering solution where strealth was not an issue....ie open taping a festival where you need over 6-10 hrs of continous recording time. it would be beneficial to have one power source to handle this rather than having to swap out batteries after every set/show.

i am not sure if this could be done, but possibly adding a dc in and possibly a small switch to select either 9v internal battery operation or 9v external battery operation.

[Craig T]

i am not sure if this could be done, but possibly adding a dc in and possibly a small switch to select either 9v internal battery operation or 9v external battery operation.

the problem lies in that the unit is not "9v" powered.  (nick, correct me if I'm wrong)  the circuit uses multiple batteries in series to provide the proper voltage to the caps without using a dc-dc converter.

[gngrbrdman13]

the 9v is 5400mah

i belive freelunch was looking for a powering solution where strealth was not an issue....ie open taping a festival where you need over 6-10 hrs of continous recording time. it would be beneficial to have one power source to handle this rather than having to swap out batteries after every set/show.

i am not sure if this could be done, but possibly adding a dc in and possibly a small switch to select either 9v internal battery operation or 9v external battery operation.

Chris:  4 9V equates to 8hrs recording on the Nbox.

check this out...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=43058.0
 
The issue IMO is that 9V are fucking expensive and we are tired of paying for them.  I myself being an environmentalist, dont like the waste either.

What is a strealth rig?

[gngrbrdman13]

i am not sure if this could be done, but possibly adding a dc in and possibly a small switch to select either 9v internal battery operation or 9v external battery operation.

the problem lies in that the unit is not "9v" powered.  (nick, correct me if I'm wrong)  the circuit uses multiple batteries in series to provide the proper voltage to the caps without using a dc-dc converter.

That is right Craig!  I remember him saying that too.

Sorry for that last quote f'up here is the link Chris:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=43058.0

[Chris K]

strealth - combination of strong and stealth....like the nbox   

[gngrbrdman13]

strealth - combination of strong and stealth....like the nbox   

You are quick on your feet!  I hope for your wifes sake your not that quick everywhere

Someone just gave me a ticket Stop it!!

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Two of the 9 volts are wired in series, providing 18volts.  Two are wired in parallel.

I don't think you can wire 9volt wally batteries in series to make 18v. I believe the 9volt bats are actually 7.2 internally and have regulators which raise to 9v.  So this is pretty tricky.

Right now, I can go tape at a local hole and just run constantly from 10PM to 2AM. But with the nbox and the main gig coming on around midnight, there was always the concern that I might come up short due to recording the openers. Especially if I was starting even earlier to catch soundcheck. So it isn't just festival tapers.

The battery wires in my nbox were quite short. There was always the concern that one would get damaged at the worst possible time (somewhat drunk (or not) while changing batteries before the main act, etc). It was nice that the connectors securely grabbed the battery terminals but they were Really secure. I found it much safer to pop them off by inserting something rather than trying to pull them off with my fingers.

Without batteries, the nbox could be less than half the current size. I think a half size nbox with sep bbox would be easier to conceal then a combined unit.

I'm not trying to rag the nbox, just trying to think of ways it could be improved.  One question is how current units could be improved and the other is how a new design could be improved.

[schoepsnbox]

You are all correct, the Change everyother show I label is an 18v supply with little drain.  the change every show batts are the hogs which these make +-9v.  Also there is another string of 12v batts that provide 60v    these are very low drain and will last for years.  So technically speaking, yes the nbox could be half the size less  the 9v that need to be changed at different intervals.  Another thought for the time being is you could get away with using rechargables 9vs for the 18v side and regular alkalines on the other. 

[schoepsnbox]

is it true 9v rechargables are only 7.2v with a full charge    am i being missinformed here?

[gngrbrdman13]

is it true 9v rechargables are only 7.2v with a full charge    am i being missinformed here?

Correctly informed

[Brian Skalinder]

is it true 9v rechargables are only 7.2v with a full charge    am i being missinformed here?

Correctly informed

Or perhaps misinformed, after all.     As I understand it, even 9v rechargeables are still made up of 1.2v cells.  The original 9v NiMH rechargeable batts were comprised of 7 cells, and provided only 8.4v when fully charged.  At some point, some manufacturers started offering 9v NiMH rechargeables with 8 cells, providing 9.6v when fully charged.  I don't know of any 9v NiMH rechargeables that included only 6 cells (and therefore providing only 7.2v), but that doesn't mean they don't exist - just that I'm not familiar with them.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The small NiMH batteries may be 9.4 after charging but they fall almost immediately..  Nominal on this one is 8.4v. I think lithium is probably the way to go.

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/tysonic-9v-nimh-batteries.htm

There are definitely lithium batteries better than that. They are usually not substitutes for common sizes. They aren't usually sold to the public because they can explode if not charged correctly, etc..

http://www.powerstream.com/lip.htm
http://www.batteriesamerica.com/newpage8.htm

The first battery on the first link looks very interesting and it is in a normal 9v form factor.  10.8V nom.  If those would work, that would be great.  Just add a charging jack (and figure out the 18v serial issues).

[ianstone]

schoepsnbox, my 9v wal-mart type battery is at your disposal

After further consideration will this work?  Wouldnt we need 4?  What are the mA on that batt Chris? 

IMO the way to do this would be to have the rechargable system fit inside the Nbox so that there is no 'extra' gear for me to forget at home....he he he

you'd forget your head if it wasn't attached

[gngrbrdman13]

is it true 9v rechargables are only 7.2v with a full charge    am i being missinformed here?

Correctly informed

Or perhaps misinformed, after all.     As I understand it, even 9v rechargeables are still made up of 1.2v cells.  The original 9v NiMH rechargeable batts were comprised of 7 cells, and provided only 8.4v when fully charged.  At some point, some manufacturers started offering 9v NiMH rechargeables with 8 cells, providing 9.6v when fully charged.  I don't know of any 9v NiMH rechargeables that included only 6 cells (and therefore providing only 7.2v), but that doesn't mean they don't exist - just that I'm not familiar with them.

Thats what they are 8.4.  They tanked right away though.   I tried them years ago with a sonosax and found they didnt work at all and never tried them again.  Looks like these other ones that are 9.4 drop quick too.  I have said lithium all  along.

[date=1134665832]



you'd forget your head if it wasn't attached

If thats not callin' the spun dun

[Brian Skalinder]

Thats what they are 8.4.  They tanked right away though.   I tried them years ago with a sonosax and found they didnt work at all and never tried them again.  Looks like these other ones that are 9.4 drop quick too.

I tried the 8.4v ones with the Sax, too, and nope - they didn't cut it.  In fact, they didn't cut it for any 9v device in which I tried them.  However, the reviews I've read indicate the 9.6v NiMH batts are a BIG improvement over the 8.4v.  I've not tried the 9.6v ones myself, though, so I don't know if they drop so swiftly as to prove useless.  I'm curious, since I have other needs for 9v NiMH batts - what's behind the "looks like these other ones" drop quick, too, comment?  Reviews, personal experiences, etc.?

[gngrbrdman13]

Thats what they are 8.4.  They tanked right away though.   I tried them years ago with a sonosax and found they didnt work at all and never tried them again.  Looks like these other ones that are 9.4 drop quick too.

 - what's behind the "looks like these other ones" drop quick, too, comment?  Reviews, personal experiences, etc.?

Well its based on the fact that it says nominal voltage 8.4v.   

From the Tysonic website:

Actual Voltage is the same or slightly higher than standard 9V Alkaline Batteries after charging
Actually charges to 9.4 Volts @ 200mAH  capacity.  Nominal voltage is 8.4 volts
Checks out at 9.4V after charging. ( Actual 9V alkaline is 9.2V) Nominal voltage is 8.4V

Hows Frank?

[Brian Skalinder]

Well its based on the fact that it says nominal voltage 8.4v.

Ahhh, gotcha.  The newer (not necessarily Tysonic) 9v NiMH rechargeables are 9.6v nominal, not 8.4v.

[gngrbrdman13]

Well its based on the fact that it says nominal voltage 8.4v.

Ahhh, gotcha.  The newer (not necessarily Tysonic) 9v NiMH rechargeables are 9.6v nominal, not 8.4v.

yeah your so cool you got me right here in the open on the internets.  at least I posted a reference....wheres yours?

and always Brian 

[JasonSobel]

I also heard through the grape vine that a MG nbox is in the works.  The collettes have been machined and now some other research needs to be done on developing an 'active' setup for it.

I know this thread is primarily about powering the nbox, but is this true.  I think many of us MG folks would be interested in an active setup to use with the MG caps.

[gngrbrdman13]

Well its based on the fact that it says nominal voltage 8.4v.

Ahhh, gotcha.  The newer (not necessarily Tysonic) 9v NiMH rechargeables are 9.6v nominal, not 8.4v.

skalomander you've been waiting over 2 months to say that to me about something.  its ok you can go ahead and breathe now.

IMO rechargable alkalines suck.  they are bound to f up on you sooner or later no matter how many nomifuckinal volts they have....for what period of time that is the real question.

Brian,  How about you run the rechargable 9v in your sonolax (maybe you can borrow it back for these battery comps ::)and I will run the Nbox with duracell ultras and see who gets the encore....he he he

This is what really matters about what I said....not your stupid voltage war.

I have said lithium all  along. [/b]

[schoepsnbox]

I also heard through the grape vine that a MG nbox is in the works.  The collettes have been machined and now some other research needs to be done on developing an 'active' setup for it.

I know this thread is primarily about powering the nbox, but is this true.  I think many of us MG folks would be interested in an active setup to use with the MG caps.

Yes, this is true...Met a local taper at a bc show, got together with him and a friend of his who is a machineist and we currently have an "active head" for the mg caps to screw onto.....looking good.  Simply have to work out circuit details as the mg caps differ from the schoeps.

[JasonSobel]

I also heard through the grape vine that a MG nbox is in the works.  The collettes have been machined and now some other research needs to be done on developing an 'active' setup for it.

I know this thread is primarily about powering the nbox, but is this true.  I think many of us MG folks would be interested in an active setup to use with the MG caps.

Yes, this is true...Met a local taper at a bc show, got together with him and a friend of his who is a machineist and we currently have an "active head" for the mg caps to screw onto.....looking good.  Simply have to work out circuit details as the mg caps differ from the schoeps.

that is great to hear.  your work and effort are really appreciated

[Brian Skalinder]

yeah your so cool you got me right here in the open on the internets.  at least I posted a reference....wheres yours?

  I wasn't trying to be cool and I wasn't looking for a reference.  I was simply seeking to understand your comments.  Now I know why you didn't think "these other ones" would prove any better than the 8.4v batts:  you were, in fact, still talking about 8.4v nominal batts.  I appreciate the clarification.

Two quick references for 9.6v nominal NiMH batts:

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/ipower-96v-220-rechargeable-battery.htm
http://www.thomas-distributing.com/mh-96v200.htm

Try Google for what I suspect are gobs more.

IMO rechargable alkalines suck.  they are bound to f up on you sooner or later no matter how many nomifuckinal volts they have....for what period of time that is the real question.

Rechargeable alkalines are a different animal entirely.  I'll assume you meant NiMH.  Anyway...the 8.4v NiMH rechargeables do suck for realtively high-draw situations that require 9v.  I just don't think it's reasonable to assume the 9.6v nominal batts will prove just as worthless.

Perhaps the additional voltage will make a significant difference, perhaps it won't.  I don't know whether the 8.4v NiMH batts failed in the Sax because the batts didn't carry enough capacity, or because the voltage drop-off occurred too rapidly so the Sax couldn't effectively use the batt's available capacity.  If the former, the extra voltage won't help.  If the latter, the extra voltage may help.  At any rate, I've not tried them, so I don't know.  It seems you haven't tried them, either.  If you do try them, let us know how they work out for you.  Maybe they'll suck, but maybe they won't.  But to pan them without trying or presenting valid reasons doesn't serve anyone's interests.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I was unable to find actual discharge curves for those batteries. They haven't provided complete specs. So I would be very suspect of their performance until more data is available.  That is especially true in an application like this where the batteries will be used both in series and parallel.

Another link that covers some of the issues and mentions these bats:

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72961

[Josephine]

I have used these 9.6v batteries in my nbox and would advise against it.  Lost a couple good recordings because of it.

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/mh-96v200.htm

[schoepsnbox]

I have used these 9.6v batteries in my nbox and would advise against it.  Lost a couple good recordings because of it.

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/mh-96v200.htm

Josephine, you used four of those correct....I am recommending using two of these on the change every other show side of the box and regular disposable on the other.   Just thinking that this could be a cost saving measure for those who stealth shows like yourself

[Brian Skalinder]

I have used these 9.6v batteries in my nbox and would advise against it.  Lost a couple good recordings because of it.

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/mh-96v200.htm

Thanks for the first-hand info, Val. 

[Josephine]

Most of my taping "adventures" average around three hours.  Before each time I go out, I throw two new batteries into my nbox, moving the "every show" batts. into the "every other show" batts. position.  I'm only going through two batteries an adventure; therefore, I really have no complaints about my nbox's battery consumption.  When I first started, I was unhappy because I was using rechargeables.

Using the rechargeables in the manner you suggested, Nic, would work fine . . . . just seems like it'd be more of a hassle than it is worth.  And I've got them sitting right here.  I'd still be putting in two new batteries at a time and I don't really see where you'd be saving anything.

[schoepsnbox]

ok, lets forget the rechargables.  I would rather see you leave the change every other show batts in place rather than taking the every show batts and moving them over.  The every show batts at the end of a show, if you started off with 4 fresh will have less voltage than the others.  Just want to see you maximize your battery usage, thats all.

[gngrbrdman13]

ok, lets forget the rechargables.  I would rather see you leave the change every other show batts in place rather than taking the every show batts and moving them over.  The every show batts at the end of a show, if you started off with 4 fresh will have less voltage than the others.  Just want to see you maximize your battery usage, thats all.

I have had great success moving the every show batts over to the every other show batts.  As stated in another thread with a link on this thread....

1 to 3 and 2 to 4....replacing 1 and 2.  The same way Josephine is talking about.  Somebody was talking about a smaller box with some sort of pin connector that would connect the Nbox to the 9v or other sufficient batt system.  That is a cool idea.  Ya know schoepsnbox I am always trying to have fun modifying the box.

Alex:  Your right.....we're wimps.    Actually I have been told I need a WAAAAMBULANCE on this site so your statement is right on. I just really would like a rechargable Li Ion for this box.    I have stated before I love the box.  Sounds great with the R1 IMO.  Just for the record if anything ever happens to me please bury me with my Nbox....

???Living Colour tonight?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Just for the record if anything ever happens to me please bury me with my Nbox....

Just for the record.. Do you mean in a casket with the nbox or cremated with your ashes *in* the nbox?
If the former, what kind of batteries?  Or no batteries because they'll leak?

[Josephine]

Alex:  Your right.....we're wimps.

Hey fluff, speak for yourself.     

Just pop the top off the box and swap the fucking batteries. Takes about 90 seconds max. I do it at festivals such as Bridge School benefit where taping is not allowed and one needs to be discrete about such things.

I did this at the Long Beach Bllues Fest.  Not a big deal.

[poorlyconditioned]

Alex:  Your right.....we're wimps.

Hey fluff, speak for yourself.     

Just pop the top off the box and swap the fucking batteries. Takes about 90 seconds max. I do it at festivals such as Bridge School benefit where taping is not allowed and one needs to be discrete about such things.

I did this at the Long Beach Bllues Fest.  Not a big deal.

Hey, can anyone tell me what the NBox and/or provide documentation?  Is this one of jk_labs boxes?  I'm looking at building something like this to power AKG CK61,2,3 capsules.

Thanks,
  Richard