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Author Topic: Is there an ORTF/NOS/DINa equivalent for stereo speaker placement?  (Read 3534 times)

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Offline baustin

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Is there an ORTF/NOS/DINa equivalent for stereo speaker placement?
« on: September 16, 2008, 12:17:42 AM »
Not really sure if I'm asking correctly. Probably don't have a good enough playback system to make a difference.

First of all, are there speaker placement techniques similar to microphone placement techniques (ie - 3ft at 60°)?

Secondly, lets say I run NOS frequently... Would I get a 'truer' stereo reproduction if the speakers were placed in angles and distances corresponding to the NOS microphone pattern?


Offline sygdwm

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Re: Is there an ORTF/NOS/DINa equivalent for stereo speaker placement?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 10:28:48 AM »
im thinking no. for optimal speaker placement you want an equilateral triangle b/w you and your speakers. different types of speakers require x amount of feet from walls/each other. set them up and toe them in slightly. boom...maxell guy
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Offline Eigenklang

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Re: Is there an ORTF/NOS/DINa equivalent for stereo speaker placement?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 02:34:28 PM »
For a proper placement of stereo speakers you have to find the best sounding compromise whilst taking into account room acoustics, directional behavior of the speakers and a stereo triangle that fits best to the size of your room.

2-channel Speaker placement is way more universal than the well known types of stereo microphone systems that we are recording with.

Offline datbrad

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Re: Is there an ORTF/NOS/DINa equivalent for stereo speaker placement?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2008, 10:11:28 AM »
The rule of thumb I have always followed with 2 channel stereo loudspeaker placement is that they are placed correctly when they audibly disapear. In other words, with your eyes closed, you cannot localize where they are in the room. All you hear is a full soundstage in the front 180 degrees of your listening position.

More specifically, if they are too close to a wall, the bass will be over-extended, and too far away and the bass is lighter and localized. Have them too close together, and the imaging will collapse into the center, too far apart and there is a hole in the middle with extreme localization of mid-range and high end.

I have never been an advocate of angles, or tow in, with speaker placement. When starting out in a new room with a stereo pair, I always place the loudspeakers in parallel to each other, and the back wall, straight ahead. Then I play with the distances apart to get the imaging right, then the distance from the wall to balance out the bass, and call it done when I can no longer localize the speakers with my eyes closed.

Hope this helps.
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Is there an ORTF/NOS/DINa equivalent for stereo speaker placement?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2008, 01:24:09 PM »
The Von Schweikert manual does a fantastic job on how to set up the VR-2s and I think the advice can translate to other speakers very easily:

http://www.vonschweikert.com/manuals/manual_vr_2.pdf

PLACEMENT
The VR's are Room Interactive, meaning that the VRs were designed to work in an average listening room, not an anechoic chamber. Speakers that measure very good in an anechoic chamber will usually sound too bass heavy and directional when placed in a room due to boundary effects and room gain in the bass region. The bass response of the room (boundary gain) has been factored into the VRs, along with the reflective nature of boundary surfaces such as wood, plaster, glass, and so forth. Since the VRs are quasi-omnidirectional transducers, designed to be the inverse of the recording microphone, their sound output will react with the listening room in a positive manner only if properly placed. There are two components of sound that reach the listener’s ears:

1. The direct arrival, or initial wavelaunch of the speaker itself;
2. The secondary waves that are reflected from the room’s boundary surfaces.

The reflected sound is delayed according to the distances involved from the speaker to the boundaries, then back to the listener. It is important for the reflected sound-field to integrate properly with the initial wavelaunch, since out-of-phase reflections will interfere with both flat frequency response and image focus. It is not difficult to determine where the best placement will be in any given room, since you will be using a pink noise listening test discussed later. See Pink Noise Test.

In every room, there will usually be more than one magic spot for the VRs to sound their best. However, finding those spots is not intuitive, due to the nature of reverberation characteristics and room dimensions, which vary enormously from room to room. The VRs, being Virtual Reality simulators, are designed to load the room very similarly to the way a live instrument would load the room. Only in this way can your ear/brain hearing mechanism be lulled into believing that you could be listening to an actual performance, and not simply ‘canned’ sound. If you had a grand piano at the end of the room where the speakers are playing, it would involve the entire room with semi-omnidirectional sound, and your ear/brain hearing mechanism will clearly know this. The VR Virtual Reality design will simulate this huge soundfield, with its involving depth and dimensionality. However, correct placement is required to achieve the best possible sound quality. Amazingly, moving the speaker only a few inches can make the difference between good sound and great sound.

FOCAL POINT OF ARRAY: Since the VR-2 is Quasi-Time Aligned by use of the specialized Global Axis Integration Network TM crossover circuit and thus results in a focused phase-array driver complement, there is an optimum seating distance. If you must situate the speakers close together, with a close listening position for near field applications, such as in a recording studio, you may have to toe the speakers in towards you slightly. In order to find the focus point of the array, use the following technique:

PINK NOISE LISTENING TEST FOR FOCUS: Play a pink noise source such as a CD with test tones or an FM tuner set between stations (with muting turned off). You will notice one of two sonic effects when listening to pink noise:

1. If you are in the focal point of the array, you will hear a “ball” of noise that appears to float between the speakers. Although noise will appear to emanate from the speakers themselves, the center image will be stronger, with a slightly different tone quality to the phantom center image. The sound from the speakers themselves will seem slightly detached from the pink noise ball, and slightly softer in volume level. The center “ball” of sound will be very strong, and you will be able to detect that the “ball” of sound is round, with depth to the image. This is a ‘locked in’ image with correct focus.

2. If you are not sitting in the focal point, the noise will be diffuse, without a center image. Although you will hear some pink noise coming from the center, it will sound as diffuse as the sound coming from the speakers themselves. Even though the speakers will image music when set up like this, the imaging will be diffuse and not very focused. There won’t be enough ‘body’ to the images, and it will be hard to hear space between the instruments. There is a distinct lack of image focus in this situation.

To find the focal point of the VR system, move forwards and backwards slowly while listening to the pink noise ‘ball’. You can either rock in your listening seat, or move back and forth by several feet if you are way out of the equilateral triangle (using a director’s chair for this works great). If you have a fixed seating position that can not be moved due to furniture considerations, you will have to move the speakers either closer together, or further apart, depending on the strength of the pink noise ‘ball’. If the speakers are closer together than 8 feet, try spreading them further apart.

*Note: if the speakers can not be separated more than a few feet due to room considerations, as in a video application, it may be necessary to toe the speakers outwards.

When placing the speakers further apart than 8 feet, try toeing them in towards you, listening for the ‘ball’ to lock in. It really helps to have two people moving the speakers while you sit in the listening position, giving them orders. Toe-in is often critical, with only 1" movements being very apparent. When you have found the correct spacing and listening distance, you will immediately know it, since the image lock-in is very obvious. The pink noise will become a very strong ‘ball’ of sound, just floating in between the speakers. Keep moving the speakers until you hear this ball of sound. As you move the speakers either closer together or further apart, and experiment with toe-in, you will hear changes that enable you to know if you are headed in the right direction. It isn’t really difficult, it’s fun. Of course, experimenting with several types of placement schemes is valuable, for it will teach you how the speakers indirect with your particular room. Only by careful experimentation will you find that ‘magic’ spot for your new VR-2 speaker system.

RebelRebel

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Re: Is there an ORTF/NOS/DINa equivalent for stereo speaker placement?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2008, 04:29:57 PM »
the Real Traps site has some good suggestions(I follow the "38 percent rule" in my own listening space.

the WASP Technique is popular as well.

also, the Cardas Method seems to be popular.

I guess my speakers would be setup in an XY fashion, as per my builders reccomendation.


 

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