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Author Topic: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)  (Read 5322 times)

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Offline Optic1

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Hello all;

I'm pretty new to all this so please bear with me. Project started out as Oral History, using an Edirol R09 recorder and built in mics. Yech! would describe the results, too much ambiance. So I've added a Rode NTG2 shotgun (old folks dont seem to like a mic right in their face so I went with the shotgun) mic, much improved - fed into the mic input got great sound but annoyng hiss in the background. Was able to remove hiss using Audacity Beta version Noise Removal tool. So far so good, but found a need to have a second mic hooked up so I could prompt and steer the interview a bit. So I bought an Azden FMX-32 mixer (just in case I ever needed 3 lines in) which allows me to use LineIn on the Edirol and with Audacity tool the interviews sound pretty good (second mic is a Rode NT3 I got used for cheap but in good shape).

So whats the problem? Well, I went on vacation and decided to do a little ambient sound recording, town Brass band, pin bowling alley, for horn at night, wind in trees (did I mention this is starting to get addictive?), wind chimes, water fountain, tide coming in etc. etc. But now I got major HISS problems with anything thats quiet, boost the input levels to get a decent meter reading (@12-6db) on the R09 and the hiss makes me nuts and I cant figure out how to kill it in Audacity. The FMX doesnt seem to really add much boost so cranking it up and the R09 down allows me to use LineIn but its still hissy.

SO, do I need a preamp to deliver a stronger, cleaner signal to the 09 and if so which one?

TIA,
Rode NT3, Rode NTG2, Beyer M58, AKG C1000S, Azden FMX-32, Edirol R09

Offline Arni99

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 02:56:53 PM »
Hello, yes a preamp would bring down the noise to a decent level.
Check this thread for small preamps.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109349.0.html;)

I own the SP-preamp and the MM-preamp and had the Church 9100 preamp.

The new Edirol R-09HR got a great internal preamp comparable to the one of HI-MD recorders.
About 10dB less noise as Guysonic measured.
;)


« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 03:07:03 PM by Arni99 »
1st: SONY PCM-M10 + DPA 4060's + DPA MPS 6030 power supply (microdot)
2nd: iPhone 5 + "Rode iXY" microphone/"Zoom IQ5" microphone

Offline Optic1

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 03:25:33 PM »
>>yes a preamp would bring down the noise to a decent level.<<

Thanks Arni99;

Would anything preclude my running the signal from the FMX-32 output into the Premap and then to the Edirol or would that be a really bad (as in equipment trashing) idea? In other words can I still run 2-3 mics into the mixer and then amplify the mixers outut using a preamp before the signal got to the Ediril R09?

Thanks again,
Rode NT3, Rode NTG2, Beyer M58, AKG C1000S, Azden FMX-32, Edirol R09

Offline flintstone

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2008, 11:13:03 PM »
When recording ambience as you described, recorder self-noise (that background hiss) is going to be audible when using any pocket-size recorder under $500 or so.  The $1800 Sony PCM-D1 is pretty quiet and might still be considered a "hand-held" recorder. 

Here's an example that clearly shows the difference in noise level when recording with and without an external preamp using the Edirol R-09HR, one of the best of today's small recorders.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1443847.html#msg1443847

So it's worth spending the extra money for a good external preamp (or for a better recorder!) if you're recording nature sounds or ambience, and you don't want that hissy background.  Background hiss is much less noticeable if you're recording a loud source, such as amplified music. 

Here are a few preamp options that aren't too expensive

Sound Professionals SP-Preamp $180
www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PREAMP

Felmicamps Battery Preamp $200
www.felmicamps.co.uk/products/felbattpreamp.html

Chris Church ST-9000 preamp $230
stores.ebay.ca/CHURCH-AUDIO

If you need to provide phantom power to microphones, they consider
these models:

Sound Devices MP2 (discontinued, available used for ~$500)
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mp2master.htm

Sound Devices MixPre $670
www.sounddevices.com/products/mx2master.htm

Aerco MP2 $750
www.aerco.net/mp2.html

There are plenty of more expensive preamps and mixers, too.

Flintstone





Offline digifish_music

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008, 12:58:06 AM »
...

Aerco MP2 $750
www.aerco.net/mp2.html


Ouch, looking at the preamp, you are not getting a lot of bang for your $750, it had better be brilliant :)

Point about the MixPre, its gain is so clean that you hear the hiss from the mic, before the hiss from the MixPre, for that reason they are the darling of the field-recording crowd (me included). But they are (too) expensive for anyone dipping their toes in the water of field-recording.

Recently the Jucedlink preamp has appeared, but no-one around here has bought one yet. They seem to be good.

digifish



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Offline guysonic

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008, 06:54:40 AM »
One very high performance/precision low noise preamplifier model missed in the recommendations is documented in the review at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

Below is the mic input verses line with preamplifier noise plot:



Here is an image of the preamp attached to the deck.



Suggest comparing provided taper's recordings made with the posted list of suggested preamplifiers with ambient recordings using PA-3SX configuration samples found on page: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline flintstone

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008, 01:03:52 PM »
"One very high performance/precision low noise preamplifier model
missed in the recommendations is [the Sonic Studios PA-3SX]..."

That's right!  The Sonic Studios PA-3SX costs $450, or $510 with mini-xlr
jacks for input and output.  Read about it here.
http://www.sonicstudios.com/pa3sxman.htm

Not missed, just left out because of their cost are the Apogee MiniMe ($900),
Marenius SMF-5 ($900), Wendt X2  ($900 ?), Sonic Studios PA-24NJ ($950),
DAV Electronics BG1 ($1250), Sonosax SX-M2 ($1285),  Sound Devices 302 ($1300),
Grace Design Lunatec V3 ($1525),  Rupert Neve Designs Portico 5012 ($1650),
and many more.

Flintstone

edit to add:  We're all waiting to hear how the 5 Fish Studios TS-2 preamp
performs, and how much it will cost!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 01:05:35 PM by flintstone »

Offline Optic1

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2008, 03:16:43 PM »
>>...Not missed, just left out because of their cost...<<

Would that cost were not a factor but it is, so my thanks for keeping the discussion grounded. Its clear I'll need a pramp. Which one I cant decide as yet.

Will I be able to safely insert the preamp between the Azden FMX-32 mixer and the R-09 or would that foul up either the signal or the equipment? Stealth is not a priority but would be nice to retain as an option - having said that none of the form factors seem to prohibit what I need to do (which verges more on the discrete rather than outright stealth) ie. bag carry should be OK as I dont anticipate attending concerts or venues which prohibit recording.

The TS-2 to be seems like a good thing coming as does the Sound Design, havent been able to find out much about the Juicedlink product. Those three seem to preserve connectivity/phantom options for the future.

Any thoughts based on the above?

Thanks,


Rode NT3, Rode NTG2, Beyer M58, AKG C1000S, Azden FMX-32, Edirol R09

Offline flintstone

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2008, 06:02:12 PM »
The need for an external pre is mostly an issue with small,
inexpensive recorders.  There are one-box solutions with
good preamps.  They are just larger and more expensive.

If stealth is not important and you're willing to lug around
a full-size recorder, check out the Fostex FR-2LE.  It's got
a preamp that is good enough not to need help, and
it has a great internal battery option so you can provide
phantom power to external mics for hours.  Price is
about $450 on eBay, $575 through online merchants.

Other full-size recorders with good internal preamps include
the Marantz PMD671 ($750), the Tascam HD-P2 ($850),
and the Sound Devices 702 ($1875).  There are plenty of
additional choices with prices above $2000.

Full size recorders provide more features that pros looks for,
like XLR input jacks, phantom power, individual gain and
trim controls for each channel, pre-roll buffer, and meters that
work.  Pocket-size recorders typically lack all of these features.

Recent tests by Digifish show the preamps in the Edirol
R-44 four channel recorder are similar to the R-09HR, meaning
good enough for loud subjects, and probably too noisy
for quiet subjects.  So it's not in the same class as the full-size
machines mentioned above.

Flintstone

Offline Optic1

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 04:25:31 PM »
The need for an external pre is mostly an issue with small,
inexpensive recorders.  There are one-box solutions with
good preamps.  They are just larger and more expensive.

If stealth is not important and you're willing to lug around
a full-size recorder, check out the Fostex FR-2LE.  It's got
a preamp that is good enough not to need help


flintstone;

Thanks, that may be the way to go. Frankly I was thinking about the SD MixPre (the JuicedLink looks good until you read the manual, its really designed for Videorecorders which Im simply not into) but strategically speaking it (SD MixPre) sort of duplicates functionality which I already have (Azden FMX 32 - at least for the mixing part), while leaving me with no backup recorder in the event of a catastrophe. The 702 has been on my wish list for several months but is out of my price range until some of this gear pays for itself and ultimately produces a profit (probably Jan/Feb 09 at this rate) at which time I may just go for it.

The recordings I made using the 09 in high SPL enviro were OK, its the quiet stuff that makes me crazy. Since I dont do concerts and am basically focused on conversation in quiet environments I need the least hiss available.... well want anyway - probably dont "need"......

Let me know if you have any further thoughts.



Rode NT3, Rode NTG2, Beyer M58, AKG C1000S, Azden FMX-32, Edirol R09

Offline guysonic

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 05:33:09 PM »
So far, no pocket size flash deck is perfect, with no issues to consider. 

In my opinion, these compact portable audio solutions do offer lower cost, easier battery powering, and this translates to having more opportunities to always carrying around and more easily catching sound recording opportunities often missed with owning larger, more costly, power hungry, and more featured portable deck configurations with fewer or no technical/quality issues.

As most of us have realized, the microphone, and how it is being used is responsible for 90-95% of the audible recorded quality, with the preamp next, and the deck's A/D being last for what's important in having satisfaction with the recorded results.

Even with a small flash deck having an equally compact external preamplifier configuration maybe costing what a much larger, much more power hungry all-in-one deck solution as an affordable possibility, there's the 'awkward factor' traveling with the larger deck solution. 

So for many of us, the larger power hungry all-in-one solution equals more missed opportunities being tired of the bulk and power issues always associated with these larger rigs.

So far, the most complete compact deck seems the Sony D50 that's almost not pocket size, requiring 4 AA cells, costing about $100 more than other choices, but does include a quiet minijack input mic preamplifier.

The next most quiet model is Olympus's LS-10 that's extremely compact, runs on 2 AA cells for a long time, but mic input lacks lower bass bandwidth requiring an external preamplifier if below 85 cycle bass is important to your recording interests.
See review: www.sonicstudios.com/ls10revw.htm

My current favorite model is newest Edirol R-09HR with mostly quiet internal mic preamplifier, runs a long time on 2 AA cells, has uncommon 88.2K recording mode, and is a good shirt-pocket sized solution not needing an external preamplifier as long as the low frequency noisy internal mic power feature is not used. 

Internal mics are also considered by many the best sounding of any compact flash deck currently on the market.
See review: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

In conclusion, even if the cost of a small shirt-pocketable deck + equally compact external preamplifier is about the same cost as a much larger, more featured portable deck model, the pocketable rig might have way more value in practical 'always easy to travel with/ready power for 'on the spot recording' purposes. 

This translates to the same costing, but pocketable rig configuration being far more useful for general field recording purposes.
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Offline rastasean

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Re: NOOB needs advice on Edirol hiss - maybe need preamp? (longish post)
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 06:14:02 PM »
Thanks for this review and it really sums many of the portable recorders up. I still think I will be getting the R09hr just because I don't like the size of the Sony and the internal memory.
I think it should be noted that mic placement will make a great big deal of difference in audio capturing as well and it would be a good idea to become committed to learning different placement patters as well.
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