Topic: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's

[stlram]

It is amazing that people will recommend that you listen to a recording to decide if you like the equipment combination. With out a point of reference this is by no way a way of determining the accuracy or inaccuracies of any equipment unless there is something wrong with the set up. There are too many uncontrolled variables to get a handle on anything, especially when you are recording P.A. systems in clubs, arenas, ect., which for the most part are compromised by the system, the soundman, venue and the position recorded from, not to mention taking into account the fact that if you weren't there you have no idea what the original sound was like. Sure, you might say it sounds good or bad but good or bad to what reference?

There are mic, pre's etc., that can tailor your sound, if you want to stray from accuracy, such as warm, punchy, zippy, etc., and if that is your cup of tea "go for it", but remember what ever you do to the signal prior to recording it can't be reversed. In my book, it always makes better sense to get the cleanest sound you can get up front and then post-recording do with it as you want. There are all kinds of plug ins that will warm up, punch, compress, expand or equalize your recordings after the fact. I know some folks think this is blasphemy, and I really never use them unless the artist is requesting it but this is what you are doing in your pre-recording when you are putting together a system that gives you that warm, extended, punchy sound and further you can't reverse it. Warm sound is usually a bit of third order harmonic distortion, punch is usually a bit of compression and frequency response is usually determined by the frequency response and polar pattern of the mics used and the mics set up and technique used. 

That being said, the type of equipment you use will be mostly determined by the type of music you record. Do you attend and record mostly P.A. based bands electric bands in large, medium or small venues? Do you record acoustic jazz, classical, bluegrass from the stage?

After you have recorded a concert, you should listen objectively. Don't think, "Do I like the sound of the recording", Do think, "Does the recording sound like the concert I just attended, dynamically, frequency extension and soundstage wise". If you operate off the first "think" you will be on a merry-go-round for the rest of your life playing the mic, preamp, AD of the month game. If you operate off the second you will put together an accurate system, spend less money and enjoy yourself more.

[shaggy]

Yeowch!

I made the rec as a means of giving an overall impression of the sound and tone of the set up.  I set up a general disclaimer of the situation.  It is upto the listener to decide what he or she likes.

I think you are right in some ways.  One of the statements I made later was that the AKGs seem to make eveything sound better than it was at the venue...meaning you are not getting an accurate portrayal of the sound.  Sometimes I don't want that accuracy of the tonal characteristics of the room from what a pair of DPA402X would capture.  I think ideally, it would be ideal to have a quiver of mics and one A/D to accomdate it all.

Just trying to give john2525az  some options....I am not trying to sell him my gear!

[stlram]

By no means was I attempting to target anyone with my statement, so I'm sorry that you felt that way and I apologize.

It is just a general no-nonsense outline of how my musical and sonic values help me make equipment choices and to point out that by listening to a recording it will not tell you what the equipment is doing right, only what it may obviously be doing wrong.

However, again I will highlight that by shaping your sound pre-recording you are: 1) guessing what the performance will sound like (Even in the same venue the sound will very from performance to peformance and seat to seat) and 2) creating a non-reversible augmentation to your recording.

As for absolute accuracies, there are none and that goes for DPA's, too. Some mic's will very on their ability to accurately re-create the timbres of instruments, decay and attack of notes, as well as soundstage. Not one mic is perfect. Again, it will depend upon the situation and your musical values. At best, you can make values check list and try to find equipment that matches your’s. Mine happens to be accuracy because all others can be added afterwards; accuracy cannot!

[grider]

By no means was I attempting to target anyone with my statement, so I'm sorry that you felt that way and I apologize.

It is just a general no-nonsense outline of how my musical and sonic values help me make equipment choices and to point out that by listening to a recording it will not tell you what the equipment is doing right, only what it may obviously be doing wrong.

However, again I will highlight that by shaping your sound pre-recording you are: 1) guessing what the performance will sound like (Even in the same venue the sound will very from performance to peformance and seat to seat) and 2) creating a non-reversible augmentation to your recording.

As for absolute accuracies, there are none and that goes for DPA's, too. Some mic's will very on their ability to accurately re-create the timbres of instruments, decay and attack of notes, as well as soundstage. Not one mic is perfect. Again, it will depend upon the situation and your musical values. At best, you can make values check list and try to find equipment that matches your’s. Mine happens to be accuracy because all others can be added afterwards; accuracy cannot!

relax, dude, and chill out while you are at it, John2525 asked for guidance, tips and advice, and Shaggy and I offered him our own insight based upon our own real life experiences running different equipment with the AKG480's, nothing more and nothing less than that, we're just throwing around ideas and talking about our experiences here, please don't criticize us for helping a brother out

[jdawg]

Ahhh yes, that's the beauty of asking for opinions. Ask 10 different people and you'll get 10 different opinions. It's all subjective and yes, a point of relativity helps, too. That's exactly what I'm looking for.  Some different options that I may not have thought about. I do appreciate all the feedback thus far. That being said, I would like to steer towards something more transparent. Trying to see if Oade can transform a w-mod into a t-mod. Although that may be out of the question, not sure.

You guys rock!  And so does Ts.com. This is one fine community.     

edit: Doug just emailed me back. It's $250 for the upgrade/conversion.

[grider]

Ahhh yes, that's the beauty of asking for opinions. Ask 10 different people and you'll get 10 different opinions. It's all subjective and yes, a point of relativity helps, too. That's exactly what I'm looking for.  Some different options that I may not have thought about. I do appreciate all the feedback thus far. That being said, I would like to steer towards something more transparent. Trying to see if Oade can transform a w-mod into a t-mod. Although that may be out of the question, not sure.

You guys rock!  And so does Ts.com. This is one fine community.     

edit: Doug just emailed me back. It's $250 for the upgrade/conversion.

John I have been very pleased with my stock UA5 paired with the 480s, it adds (to my ears anway) less coloration that the MiniMe and more coloration than a V3, for recordings that turned out well in outside venue check my STS9 from 7-2-05 and for a good sounding indoor environment check out the STS9 from 2-15-05, you can stream both at archive.org, as I have said before I have run the mics into a cheap used UA5, a new MiniMe and a new V3 and the UA5 just sounds the best for all different types of taping environments and its much cheaper than the others, I imagine the mod would make it sound even better

[Brian Skalinder]

I love the Schoeps > V3 sound, personally, and don't at all find it lacking in the low end.  Everyone has different ears, of course.

A different take on this whole discussion:  have you considered changing your playback system?  Upgrading / changing my playback (modest as it is, still could use some improvement) was the single best taping-related gear change I've made.

[jdawg]

I love the Schoeps > V3 sound, personally, and don't at all find it lacking in the low end.  Everyone has different ears, of course.

A different take on this whole discussion:  have you considered changing your playback system?  Upgrading / changing my playback (modest as it is, still could use some improvement) was the single best taping-related gear change I've made.

yeah, I guess I'm just used to the AKG sound. Don't get me wrong though, I've heard many a good Schoeps>V3 that simply rock to my ears. (probably yours!)  No complaints there. Just depends on the venue/PA, and a million other factors    that come into play when making a recording.

[Chuck]

It is amazing that people will recommend that you listen to a recording to decide if you like the equipment combination. With out a point of reference this is by no way a way of determining the accuracy or inaccuracies of any equipment unless there is something wrong with the set up. There are too many uncontrolled variables to get a handle on anything, especially when you are recording P.A. systems in clubs, arenas, ect., which for the most part are compromised by the system, the soundman, venue and the position recorded from, not to mention taking into account the fact that if you weren't there you have no idea what the original sound was like. Sure, you might say it sounds good or bad but good or bad to what reference?

There are mic, pre's etc., that can tailor your sound, if you want to stray from accuracy, such as warm, punchy, zippy, etc., and if that is your cup of tea "go for it", but remember what ever you do to the signal prior to recording it can't be reversed. In my book, it always makes better sense to get the cleanest sound you can get up front and then post-recording do with it as you want. There are all kinds of plug ins that will warm up, punch, compress, expand or equalize your recordings after the fact. I know some folks think this is blasphemy, and I really never use them unless the artist is requesting it but this is what you are doing in your pre-recording when you are putting together a system that gives you that warm, extended, punchy sound and further you can't reverse it. Warm sound is usually a bit of third order harmonic distortion, punch is usually a bit of compression and frequency response is usually determined by the frequency response and polar pattern of the mics used and the mics set up and technique used. 

That being said, the type of equipment you use will be mostly determined by the type of music you record. Do you attend and record mostly P.A. based bands electric bands in large, medium or small venues? Do you record acoustic jazz, classical, bluegrass from the stage?

After you have recorded a concert, you should listen objectively. Don't think, "Do I like the sound of the recording", Do think, "Does the recording sound like the concert I just attended, dynamically, frequency extension and soundstage wise". If you operate off the first "think" you will be on a merry-go-round for the rest of your life playing the mic, preamp, AD of the month game. If you operate off the second you will put together an accurate system, spend less money and enjoy yourself more.

I'll +T you on that. Without an agreed upon reference, one recording is not nearly enough to hear to evalute the sound of mic> pre> A/D> recorder. I take into account the added comments from people who have used the same pairing of equipment as well as my own experience using the various pieces of gear being compared.

[BC]

It is amazing that people will recommend that you listen to a recording to decide if you like the equipment combination. With out a point of reference this is by no way a way of determining the accuracy or inaccuracies of any equipment unless there is something wrong with the set up. There are too many uncontrolled variables to get a handle on anything, especially when you are recording P.A. systems in clubs, arenas, ect., which for the most part are compromised by the system, the soundman, venue and the position recorded from, not to mention taking into account the fact that if you weren't there you have no idea what the original sound was like. Sure, you might say it sounds good or bad but good or bad to what reference?

Of course sometimes listening to a specific show is all you can do.

But I totally agree that it is tough to get an idea of the "flavor" of specific gear unless you were at the show and know what it sounded like or have comparison recordings of different gear from the same show.

+t

[stlram]

Gider replied: "relax, dude, and chill out while you are at it, John2525 asked for guidance, tips and advice, and Shaggy and I offered him our own insight based upon our own real life experiences running different equipment with the AKG480's, nothing more and nothing less than that, we're just throwing around ideas and talking about our experiences here, please don't criticize us for helping a brother out"

Gider,

I'm about as relaxed as you can get. Not a bone of tension in this body. And, by the way, I'm pretty chilled since the weather here in Ithaca has turned rainy and cold.
Again, my statement was not specific to anyone person, and may not have even applied to you, but I rather tried to point out the obvious, which to some is not so obvious. However, since you must have missed my first apology and you have interpreted this as a downing your comments I therefore send out another to you in the form of a wet kiss!

Enjoy the music!

Ray