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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« on: January 08, 2016, 04:03:05 AM »
I currently own a Sony PCM-M10 and a Tascam dr-60D which has 2 phantom powered xlr inputs for channels 1 & 2, and a single PIP 3.5mm input for channels 3 & 4.  I want to be able to run 2 pairs of phantom powered mics, but I also have frequent opportunities for sbd patches as well. This means I can invest in either upgrading my recorder to something like the Tascam dr-680, or I can buy a preamp and just use my M-10 for the sbd patch when available.

I am very interested in your opinions on this dilemma as I'm certain many of you have hit this fork in the road several times in your recording past.  What is the consensus out there on my options?
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2016, 09:33:20 AM »

Go for the DR680. It has decent sounding built in preamps for your mics and you can record all six channels synced to the same clock making your post work a hell of a lot easier than stretching a separate recorder's file that has been recorded to a different clock.

Since people are switching to the F8 the Tascams are popping up in the Yard Sale for steal prices right now.
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2016, 10:19:05 AM »
Yea...used 680s going for 270 on the low side on eBay.

Offline hoppedup

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2016, 10:41:02 AM »
I'd go with a DR-680, or Zoom F8 if ya got the scratch.

I haven't used a preamp since I went to big boy mics from CA-14s almost two years ago. I would have made the jump to 8 channels, but I don't mind syncing in post and I like the flexibility of running in multiple locations in a venue or at a festival.

You might actually get a consensus on this one, a taperssection rarity!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 12:20:21 PM »
DR-680

One box, less batteries, no interconnects- simpler, easier, more fool-proof, less to go wrong, sounds great.  And if running a cable from the board to your recording location is a PITA, you can still use the M10 for a SBD patch and sync it up later to whatever you record concurrently on the 680.

More importantly, and however you get there, the unasked question which will potentially have a significant impact on your resulting recordings concerns how you plan to use the additional pair of mics.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 03:25:27 PM »
I would invest in neither a preamp or a DR-680, if you like to actually make recordings. Zoom has a 6-channel deck, I believe (the H6), and I would buy literally anything on the market other than something made by Tascam. The Zoom F8 is excellent, but others here have had success with the H6.
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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 04:32:20 PM »
Why upgrade either???  Invest in mics!

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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 04:49:59 PM »
(^^^ You would probably appreciate a mic upgrade, but if you need six channels that won't help you)

Some folks have had good results with the DR-680 others have not as you can see from the above posts. It seems like it can do the job and they are not a big $$ investment. I've never used one personally so I can't comment on that.

I can say that you would indeed get six channels but to make use of the 7th and 8th on a 680 you'd need a preamp with a digital output of some kind. I always seem to find uses for the one or two channels my recorder doesn't have...

I tend to run a pair of mics and a board feed but I like the flexibility to try some unusual things at times. I was on the fence for a long time about getting a 680 or maybe an HS-P82 to add more channels. I was on that fence long enough that the Zoom F8 came out and it's exactly what I wanted.

One device, 8 full XLR inputs, four outputs, redundant SD cards if you want to run that way.

It's a very new product so time will tell on longevity but many people are giving it a big thumbs up so far even in the professional audio for video industry which is its target market.

Seriously consider the Zoom F8. Probably more than you were thinking you'd spend but if you have any inclination to experiment with more than 6 channels even down the road it could be a good long term "investment" and avoid chains of devices.

Nothing wrong with doing that especially if it's not a regular occurrence but I knew I wanted the simplicity of an all in one recorder with 8 high quality preamps and some of the features that make it good for working with video.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 05:37:57 PM »
You might actually get a consensus on this one, a taperssection rarity!

Ha! No chance.

The F8 is a certainly a nice machine, but I think it may be a bit hard to justify cost-wise for your needs.  The DR-680 is half the price or less, has sufficient channels to do what you want, is stable and works well for most around here, and has some valuable features which the F8 lacks (which unfortunately make the F8 unsuitable for me).  Sure Tascam makes some duds, and has crappy customer service, which has angered plenty of users here, but that recorder is something of a sweet spot for recording up to 6 channels inexpensively without complication.

BTW, Terry is probably the most right! ..which gets back to that unasked question I mentioned.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 05:41:04 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 07:45:34 PM »
Another vote for the DR680

I've been let down Twice since 12-21-2012 by my DR680...and I suspect it was operator error (had the unit set up to make new track on "Pause" and think that I fat finger bounced the pause button twice and lost the track)

I have used external batteries that are 12v only...run AA's in the unit as backup...

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Offline obaaron

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 08:42:57 PM »
^^
never an issue w/mine either and also have only ever run it at 12v
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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 01:03:16 AM »
I don't know how to grab quotes, so I'll just go at it.  I certainly didn't expect a consensus here (hoppedup).  I'm a relative noob, but have read enough to know there are definite conflicting opinions and experiences regarding tascam vs. the world.

First, I want to thank you all for taking the time to respond.  It truly has helped me better understand my options and question my motives.  As many suggest, I am looking at the dr 680 because of "one box" multi-channel option for the price (expecting to not get a lemon), and my familiarity with tascam.  My dr-60 has been flawless in its operation and durability so I know no negative issues with performance or tech support (knock on wood).  I just got the sony pcm-m10 from the Yard Sale and now have to read another manual and figure out a new user interface.  Would have preferred the dr-2d but none were available at the time. 

Secondly, and to your question Gutbucket, I prefer the depth (to my ears) a second pair of mics adds to the performance.  I also want to experiment with large diaphragms multi-pattern mics (possibly at4050).  May use them as stand alone in the right environment or as split omni on stage if I get the chance, or who knows.  If I upgrade to another pair of small condenser mics I can run a pair in x/y and another in some other configuration.  And if I spend my money on an upgraded set of mics I'm still in the same boat of needing as second set of preamps for the new mics. 

Hell, I guess the most frugal thing to do is just buy an inexpensive dual channel phantom power unit and a great set of mics.  I could then run both pairs of mics into my dr-60 and use the m-10 for sbd feeds.  But man I want a big new recorder (the F8 is too pricey Acidjack).  It seems like the natural evolution of a taper is to start with some small used gear, gradually expand into an unnecessarily large and cluttered quiver of equipment, sell most of it in the Yard Sale or on Ebay,  and gradually mature into a high quality streamlined and lightweight rig.  I think I am just taking my place somewhere in the early part of the middle stage of taper evolution.  One day I may find myself in the enlightened state of Schoeps, SD MixPre-d, and just my M-10, like a wise old man. 
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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2016, 01:08:20 AM »
^^
never an issue w/mine either and also have only ever run it at 12v

I guess the external battery power is another area I need to become familiar with, as I am able to use cheap 20,000 mAh usb battery packs to run my tascam dr-60 with phantom power on.  Some suggest Tekkeon units, and others are talking about Anker battery units.  I'm just not exactly sure how the 9V, 12V stuff works.  Suggestions for threads on that?
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2016, 03:34:52 PM »
I don't know how to grab quotes, so I'll just go at it.  I certainly didn't expect a consensus here (hoppedup).  I'm a relative noob, but have read enough to know there are definite conflicting opinions and experiences regarding tascam vs. the world.

First, I want to thank you all for taking the time to respond.  It truly has helped me better understand my options and question my motives.  As many suggest, I am looking at the dr 680 because of "one box" multi-channel option for the price (expecting to not get a lemon), and my familiarity with tascam.  My dr-60 has been flawless in its operation and durability so I know no negative issues with performance or tech support (knock on wood).  I just got the sony pcm-m10 from the Yard Sale and now have to read another manual and figure out a new user interface.  Would have preferred the dr-2d but none were available at the time. 


The DR-60 is not a DR-680. That is one of many issues with Tascam products -- some models work, some don't work at all. For some true comedy on their stuff, look at the DR-70D thread. Based on the experience of people I know whose opinions I trust, the 60D is pretty solid, it seems. If I were you, I'd just give up on the dream of running multiple  sets of mics and be happy doing 2 mics + SBD into that 60D, and spend my money on Isotope Ozone and a good editing program. I have an 8-channel deck and have never even used channels 5-8. OTOH if you really are into the multi pattern LD idea (and I've also done that routine, both with a stereo pair and a single stereo mic), if you get an inexpensive preamp (plus attenuators) you can probably unload it later at not too much of a loss.

I think adding SBD feeds is going to make by far the biggest difference in the quality of your recordings, so I'd try hard to get that.

Basically, if you buy a 680, you'll have the options you want. You're just rolling the dice as to whether the deck will work. I've owned one (and just about every other piece of equipment) and I found it a terrible user experience as well as unreliable. But, if you get one that's not a lemon -- and they do exist -- and you don't mind the horrific metering and menus, then it will do exactly what you want, and you won't have much money in it. If you get a lemon, though, be prepared for a terrible experience dealing with a company that deals in volume and doesn't care about keeping people's business.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM »

The DR-60 is not a DR-680. That is one of many issues with Tascam products -- some models work, some don't work at all. For some true comedy on their stuff, look at the DR-70D thread.

I've read about the DR-70 with much disappointment as that was one of the decks I wanted based on price and the ability to be powered with USB Power Bank.  So does Zoom have a better Support system than Tascam?  Do we have enough time and experience with the F8 to know its rock solid, and if issued come up that their support can handle it? 


If I were you, I'd just give up on the dream of running multiple  sets of mics and be happy doing 2 mics + SBD into that 60D, and spend my money on Isotope Ozone and a good editing program.


Izotope Ozone looks great, but I'd like to get some sleep at night!

Another vote for the DR680

I've been let down Twice since 12-21-2012 by my DR680...and I suspect it was operator error (had the unit set up to make new track on "Pause" and think that I fat finger bounced the pause button twice and lost the track)

I have used external batteries that are 12v only...run AA's in the unit as backup...


So, with the Tekkeon batteries appearing to be out of service, what are people using now?  Will the six lithium AA's get me through a two-hour show running 4 mics with phantom 48v?  Is the Anker usb battery pack working on the DR-680? 


OTOH if you really are into the multi pattern LD idea (and I've also done that routine, both with a stereo pair and a single stereo mic), if you get an inexpensive preamp (plus attenuators) you can probably unload it later at not too much of a loss.

I think adding SBD feeds is going to make by far the biggest difference in the quality of your recordings, so I'd try hard to get that.


"inexpensive preamp" is a relative term.  I have looked at everything from ART USB-Pre ($) to the SD Mix-Pre D ($$$$).  As for SBD feeds, they are great, but not always available.  I think the biggest problems here is that I listen to the same equipment used by different people at different venues and there seems to be very little consistency.  I predominantly record at smaller venues where few others are recording so it is difficult to hear how equipment compares.  Maybe this is why the Yard Sale is so busy, taping is trial and error and we have to buy to try. 
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/insideoutrecording
Mics: AKG ck61/ck63 (nBob actives, Naiant PFA) | AKG 568 | CA-14 omni | Studio Projects B3
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6 | Zoom F3 | Roland R-07
Camera: GoPro Hero 4 Silver

 

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