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Author Topic: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?  (Read 12828 times)

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Offline OFOTD

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Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« on: January 30, 2006, 02:13:20 PM »
Having a conversation with a couple of friends the other day and discussed how much longer 16bit a/d converters will still have value.  Wth a few SBM's in the yard sale taking a long time to sell comapred to even 6 months ago it got me thinking about their value nowadays.  I'm not debating sound quality or a/d's with mods or stock ones, just more of the general "Is 16 bit worth anything anymore?"

As alot of folks have discussed the new generation of taping equipment (i.e. 24bit) and the release of affordable 24 bit devices like the MT and the 671 seems to have crashed the market for the SBM's and ADC20 and the like. 

Any thoughts/opinions? 


Offline anhisr

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2006, 02:15:27 PM »
I would have to say yes
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Offline sleepypedro

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2006, 02:25:53 PM »
.

Offline bconnolly

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 02:34:30 PM »
As long as the price-point stays the same, yes.

Offline OFOTD

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2006, 02:44:33 PM »
As long as the price-point stays the same, yes.

Price point of the new 24 bit devices or of the 16bit units?    I can totally see the modded SBM's go for under $300 real soon.   

Offline jeromejello

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2006, 02:51:07 PM »
i was having a conversation along these lines last night on the way up to the crowes show.  i personally think that so long as cd audio remains standard, 16 bit will be more than suffient.  also, once you start 24 bit and caputuring all that info, the limitation is going to rest on your playback.  my old bose speakers are great for the warm analogue-y sound that i like, but the detail that 24 captures would be lost in that.  if i make the 24 bit jump it will be when i have a playback system that will support the bit depth and will also coinside with a medium that can be 24/96 with out dithering and resampling.

the market on sbm-1 can't drop out fast enough for me  >:D
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Offline blastroknow

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2006, 03:15:25 PM »
As playback for the masses 16/44.1k is certainly going to be around for many more years but in terms of buying new gear that doesn't support higher resolutions I think you really have to look at what playback will be like in 3-5 years and support that.  I'd love another mod SBM1 but @ $400 or even down to $200 I'd have to say buying a 24/96k recorder would be the better buying decision.
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Offline neutrino

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2006, 03:15:41 PM »
I recently switched over from a 16bit rig to a 24bit. I had been running  a modSBM1 > M1 and then picked up a MicroTrack. The first couple of recordings I thought sounded excellent, but than after really listening to the recordings, I began to wonder if I wasn't maximizing my recordings at 24bit, to the extent that I was at 16bit. I think the A/D and pre-amp of my 16bit setup sounded much better and although I was gaining greater detail recording in 24bit, the recordings sounded weaker to my ears. I was loosing the fullness of the bottom end and the punchyness of the mids I had with the modSBM. So I have now switched over to a modR1 which sounds so much better then the MT. I've come to think of it as sounding like a modSBM would if it was modified to put out 24bits.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2006, 03:20:00 PM »
I recently switched over from a 16bit rig to a 24bit. I had been running  a modSBM1 > M1 and then picked up a MicroTrack. The first couple of recordings I thought sounded excellent, but than after really listening to the recordings, I began to wonder if I wasn't maximizing my recordings at 24bit, to the extent that I was at 16bit. I think the A/D and pre-amp of my 16bit setup sounded much better and although I was gaining greater detail recording in 24bit, the recordings sounded weaker to my ears. I was loosing the fullness of the bottom end and the punchyness of the mids I had with the modSBM. So I have now switched over to a modR1 which sounds so much better then the MT. I've come to think of it as sounding like a modSBM would if it was modified to put out 24bits.

    Personal opinion yes - but my ears are pleased...
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2006, 03:43:08 PM »
I think you really have to look at what playback will be like in 3-5 years and support that.

Good point.  It seems as though hardware manufactures for both pro and consumer are making the jump to 24 bit.  Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are designed for 24 bit audio.  While I know billions of people have 44.1/16 CD players in their homes and cars, I have been reading for months about how new generations of CD players will be 24 bit with backwards compatibility.  So at least for the future it looks like 24 bit is going to be the standard with back compatibility to 16bit.  Also from all of the articles i've read it looks like this particular switch to 24bit will NOT be a struggle between formats as most all of the hardware people seem to at least be on the same page re: 24bit


I recently switched over from a 16bit rig to a 24bit. I had been running  a modSBM1 > M1 and then picked up a MicroTrack. The first couple of recordings I thought sounded excellent, but than after really listening to the recordings, I began to wonder if I wasn't maximizing my recordings at 24bit, to the extent that I was at 16bit. I think the A/D and pre-amp of my 16bit setup sounded much better and although I was gaining greater detail recording in 24bit, the recordings sounded weaker to my ears. I was loosing the fullness of the bottom end and the punchyness of the mids I had with the modSBM. So I have now switched over to a modR1 which sounds so much better then the MT. I've come to think of it as sounding like a modSBM would if it was modified to put out 24bits.


I have heard a good number of recording at 24 bit that seemed to lack the power of similar 16 bit recordings.  But I am also confident that as the industry moves forward as a whole, better sounding products will be available. 

Offline macdaddy

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2006, 03:57:55 PM »
until they make a 24 bit a>d that is the size of the sbm1, the sbm1 will have a place, esp the modded ones...

sometimes you need an unobtrusive rig, and i have yet to see one smaller than mine. and with the modSBM-1, the rig sounds great, too. but it is limited to 16/48...

no doubt there are 24 bit rigs that sound better, but until there is a solution that is as small as the one i run atm, i think the modSBM-1 will continue to have a place, and a market. now when a v3 comes along in a SBM-1 package, then the bottom will fall out. but that is nowhere on the horizon, afaik...

as for dat - i keep mine around for backup use only...

« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 04:01:19 PM by macdaddy »
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Offline Kindguy

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2006, 04:03:17 PM »
I recently switched over from a 16bit rig to a 24bit. I had been running  a modSBM1 > M1 and then picked up a MicroTrack. The first couple of recordings I thought sounded excellent, but than after really listening to the recordings, I began to wonder if I wasn't maximizing my recordings at 24bit, to the extent that I was at 16bit. I think the A/D and pre-amp of my 16bit setup sounded much better and although I was gaining greater detail recording in 24bit, the recordings sounded weaker to my ears. I was loosing the fullness of the bottom end and the punchyness of the mids I had with the modSBM. So I have now switched over to a modR1 which sounds so much better then the MT. I've come to think of it as sounding like a modSBM would if it was modified to put out 24bits.

    Personal opinion yes - but my ears are pleased...
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Must be. I feel the same way. But only ran 24bit once.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 04:07:12 PM by Kindguy »
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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2006, 04:10:50 PM »
As long as the price-point stays the same, yes.

Price point of the new 24 bit devices or of the 16bit units?    I can totally see the modded SBM's go for under $300 real soon.   

That has as much to do with the end of DAT and the fact that those converters are based on 10+ year old technology...

Offline spyder9

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2006, 04:53:15 PM »
Edirol has shown that the SBM-1 is on its way out.  The R1's A/D is real clean.  CF recorders have also created demand on the R&D Depts. to improve A/Ds.  I think its because bit accuracy is improving leaps and bounds in ADC technology.  I think will be an after thought, as they become a common part in everything known digitally.  The future is very near for consistent ADC.  Its where its at right now.

For our hobby, the SBM-1 would still kick around for Festivals, where one might still be running a MP2, FP24, or V2 into a JB3, and don't want to deal with swapping cards.

Offline nickgregory

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2006, 08:05:15 PM »
honestly from what I have heard from the A/D in the R1, it sounds fantastic...very similar to the t-mod SBM1 that george used to run....one less box and sounds good...

Offline aberg

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2006, 10:27:04 PM »
honestly from what I have heard from the A/D in the R1, it sounds fantastic...very similar to the t-mod SBM1 that george used to run....one less box and sounds good...

I concur... at least we can agree on something other than hockey, eh Nick?

Although my points might be moot from the other days since Ottawa just got pummeled 5-0 by the Bruins tonight.  ???

Offline nickgregory

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2006, 10:31:14 PM »
I concur... at least we can agree on something other than hockey, eh Nick?

Although my points might be moot from the other days since Ottawa just got pummeled 5-0 by the Bruins tonight.  ???

hey at least you got one of those games in hand out of the way :P

seriously though, I loved my mp-2/mod sbm1 setup...and to my ears the R1 is actually a bit clearer with the same full sound that I got from my w-mod sbm

Offline aberg

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2006, 10:35:19 PM »
I concur... at least we can agree on something other than hockey, eh Nick?

Although my points might be moot from the other days since Ottawa just got pummeled 5-0 by the Bruins tonight.  ???

hey at least you got one of those games in hand out of the way :P

seriously though, I loved my mp-2/mod sbm1 setup...and to my ears the R1 is actually a bit clearer with the same full sound that I got from my w-mod sbm

Yeah, I was thinking of trying the ACM Oade pmd660 for a while, but I just can't say enough about the mp2>r1 setup. I'm going to keep it for a while... I just have to find an easily powered and fast OTG drive for festivals.

Offline silentmark

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2006, 08:06:06 AM »
I honestly can't see 16bit going away until 24bit is as commonplace and we also have to wait for the market to be fully played out. Couple in the fact that this is an iPod generation and no one knows the difference between quality and crap, except us of course  8) With that in mind it just comes down to what you, the taper, wants to do.

I thought about selling my modSBM1 and going 24 bit, someday, but for now I see no need if I am not ready for it. Heh I will tell you this, I won't sell it if I can't get my price, I'll keep it as it has been a solid piece of gear and is still great for my tastes ...
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Offline shaggy

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2006, 08:43:36 AM »
[I can totally see the modded SBM's go for under $300 real soon.   

The modSBM may well fall below $300 in the near future but the reality is, the MT as an analog in device doing the A>D can't touch the sound of the modSBM.  And the rare mic and line mod SBM?  Doug doesn't even make a real mic-pre rebuild for the MT, so for sheer compactness, the 2modSBM is still king.  And for stealthing, I still like the 2modSBM>M1 with a remote....nothing can touch that period!  Just try to get your levels dialed in properly with your MT taking it from both ends! 

16bit as a music standard will still be prevalent for the next 3-5 years, IMHO.

Offline nickgregory

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2006, 09:03:45 AM »
agree that the remote is golden for the M1/D100, but I argue that running analog into the R1 sounds fantastic and damn close to my ears to the sbm1

Offline macdaddy

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2006, 09:12:05 AM »
[I can totally see the modded SBM's go for under $300 real soon.   

And for stealthing, I still like the 2modSBM>M1 with a remote....nothing can touch that period!  Just try to get your levels dialed in properly with your MT taking it from both ends! 


unless you are talking about my rig :D

but andy and i are arguing two sides of the same coin...

and while you might be correct, nick, why would someone with a rig like mine upgrade to the r1 - just to be limited at 24/44.1..?

if you dont have the modsbm-1, and you are looking for a small setup, maybe the r1 is for you. but i sure wouldnt dump my sbm-1 to buy an r1...

so i guess the correct answer to this thread's quer\y is, that if you are already running a 16/48 setup, you will be fine for some time to come, esp. if you like the sound and are running quality gear (like the Oade mod SBM-1). if you are buying new gear now, the consensus is to get something that will at least allow 24/44.1 (like the r1), but for long term flexibility, you really sould be looking at 24/96 capability (at a minimum)...
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2006, 09:20:18 AM »
and while you might be correct, nick, why would someone with a rig like mine upgrade to the r1 - just to be limited at 24/44.1..?

agreed...if you dont believe that 24 bit is worth the investment alone, the only other advantages of the R1 is 1 box vs 2, and no more dat tapes...

Offline silentmark

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2006, 10:44:27 AM »
[ And the rare mic and line mod SBM?  Doug doesn't even make a real mic-pre rebuild for the MT, so for sheer compactness, the 2modSBM is still king. 

Yeah I got the mic & line mods on mine and kept the 7pin intact as I was running a D8/7 at the time, now it has been the MT, no more DAT ...
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Offline gewwang

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2006, 11:18:55 AM »
I got my first r1 in late april and ran sax>r1 vs sax>tmod-sbm>d100. The r1 sounded better and I sold off the modsbm. This is the only criteria that mattered to me. Things like lack of remote, lack of L and R level indicators I've learned to live without. Things like 2 boxes to stealth vs 3 boxes and no dat tapes are just a bonus.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2006, 11:54:10 AM »
I got my first r1 in late april and ran sax>r1 vs sax>tmod-sbm>d100. The r1 sounded better and I sold off the modsbm. This is the only criteria that mattered to me. Things like lack of remote, lack of L and R level indicators I've learned to live without. Things like 2 boxes to stealth vs 3 boxes and no dat tapes are just a bonus.

Yeah but the Tmod and Oade mod are different, shrug ...
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Offline gewwang

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2006, 12:19:48 PM »
Yeah but the Tmod and Oade mod are different, shrug ...

I'm referring to the Oade t-mod, not the Todd-mod.

I run 4022/4023 > sax and have run the Oade P-Mod, W-Mod and T-Mod SBMs. Of the 3 mods, the t-mod sounded the best with my combo, very clean and not too much bottom end as with the p-mod or w-mod (I made some really bad p-mod and w-mod tapes that I wished I'd just run sax>d100 in hindsight). I've found the r1 a/d to sound as good as the t-mod but with 24 bits instead of 16.

Offline aberg

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2006, 12:47:09 PM »
Yeah but the Tmod and Oade mod are different, shrug ...

I'm referring to the Oade t-mod, not the Todd-mod.

I run 4022/4023 > sax and have run the Oade P-Mod, W-Mod and T-Mod SBMs. Of the 3 mods, the t-mod sounded the best with my combo, very clean and not too much bottom end as with the p-mod or w-mod (I made some really bad p-mod and w-mod tapes that I wished I'd just run sax>d100 in hindsight). I've found the r1 a/d to sound as good as the t-mod but with 24 bits instead of 16.

That's what I like to hear. Is that the stock R1 or the oade mod?

Offline OFOTD

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2006, 01:02:56 PM »
The modSBM may well fall below $300 in the near future but the reality is, the MT as an analog in device doing the A>D can't touch the sound of the modSBM.

Agreed on the MT.  The MT was just one example of the wave of new devices coming out.  Everything from here on out will be 24bit capable.  More and more companies will be coming out with all sorts of big and small recorders that do 24 bit.   The sound or lack thereof will in the end most likely (but not definitely) be superior to the SBM, ADC20, AK1k, etc.)

The SBM just seems to be the last of the 16 bit adc's to have not bottomed out yet.  I never see an ADC20 anymore and it was one of my favorite pieces of gear years ago.  The AD500 and AD1000 you can't give away nowadays it seems like.  When will the SBM finally crater?  March, June, October?   It will for sure but when is the question.   D7/8, M1, D100, DAP1 and the like have seemed to bottom out as well.  How often lately have you seen the words "Taking it to ebay I guess" in yard sale postings. 


Good discussion guys!  Interesting to see some differing opinions!  +T's around the horn.....

Offline gewwang

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2006, 01:33:36 PM »
That's what I like to hear. Is that the stock R1 or the oade mod?

I've only run the stock but people have told me the oade mod is worth the cost upgrade. I'm going to hold off on any upgrades as I'm still waiting for that Oct 2005 Sonosax 2 channel recorder announcement.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2006, 01:54:52 PM »
i'll take HQ 16bit over "eh" 24bit any day of the week.

there is a great market for awesome sounding 24bit A/Ds all ready, and has been for years.  If you are centering your sights on SBM1 sized 24 a/d, then it does not exist yet really.  but it will, for sure.

Offline Since85

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2006, 02:19:51 PM »
Most real (pro) studios still record 44.1/16 bit.
For me to go 24 bit:

1.  D-8 sized box with V3 quality (24 bit a/d, preamp), and hard drive/CF recording capability (1 small box only).
2.  Standardized listening format for 24 bit audio, as universal as a red book CD.

Maybe the vaporware Sonosax unit could fit the bill...

Offline Jhurlbs81

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2006, 06:42:33 PM »
Quote
Most real (pro) studios still record 44.1/16 bit.


Which real studios are you referring to?
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2006, 07:07:59 PM »
For me to go 24 bit:

1.  D-8 sized box with V3 quality (24 bit a/d, preamp), and hard drive/CF recording capability (1 small box only).
2.  Standardized listening format for 24 bit audio, as universal as a red book CD.

Ha.  Happy 16-bit listening for a looooooooong time, if not forever.
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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2006, 09:56:51 PM »
Alot has to do with playback gear too. You won't notice the difference on your average stereo/listening device. I will only run 24/96 now. If I got the means and ability to, why the hell not capture at a maximum bit depth/sample rate? Just my fart in the wind.

PS..the comment about most studios only recording at 16/441 (and the Sax comment) were dead on.   ::) ;D

I do love the sound of the Sax > Oade mod-SBM1 enough to warrant using it again in the future though even if its only 16bit. I trust my ears and yes 16bit still has its place. Check out some of the 24bit Panic recordings though from Summer/Fall 05. That *should* make you a firm believer in 24bit...even if you don't like Panic. ;)

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2006, 06:32:02 AM »
PS..the comment about most studios only recording at 16/441 (and the Sax comment) were dead on.

If the sonsax arrives (it is already late to market... it was suppose to be out in October), it will be a budget question as well as a "what does it sound like"... For a few hundred dollars people were willing to pick up the MT and listen to it. The sax, won't have that luxury costing $6K. All in all, it will be a box that few people own and hear.

Now, my opinion on this topic mirrors many here. 16-bit will be with us for a while in playback due to the popularity of CDs, but if the electronic manufacturers can spark interest in 24-bit recordings using Blue-Ray or DVD??? (whatever the other one is), then 16-bit would start dying. However, since the most popular playback device is the iPod right now, I don't see a huge rush other than those of us who love gear and music, going out and demanding 24-bit recordings. As it is, there are only a handful of DVD-Audio discs and SACD discs (I know... not true 24-bits, but they do sound better than CDs), and honestly the market just isn't there for them.

In the recording realm, 16-bit might die sooner because DAT is on it's last legs and most of the new equipment is 24-bits. That's not to say people won't be running 16-bit gear for a while, but I'm glad I sold by DA-P1, AD2K+, and modSBM-1 when I did.

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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2006, 08:26:21 AM »
but I'm glad I sold by DA-P1, AD2K+, and modSBM-1 when I did.

I second this....sold all the dat and 16 bit equipment a couple of months before the pricing bottom has dropped significantly

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2006, 09:00:30 AM »
I do love the sound of the Sax > Oade mod-SBM1 enough to warrant using it again in the future though even if its only 16bit. I trust my ears and yes 16bit still has its place.

FWIW, I've tried sax with all 3 oade mod-sbms as well as the R1 and to me and the R1 sounded better.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2006, 09:26:56 AM »
FWIW, I've tried sax with all 3 oade mod-sbms as well as the R1 and to me and the R1 sounded better.

I've listened to some of gewwang's Black Crowes tapes that pit the Sonosax > modSBM vs stock R1 (both 16 bit) and while there was a very, very slight difference in sound, I could not select a favorite because they were so similar.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2006, 09:57:08 AM »
I think the winner of Bluray vs HD DVD, will ultimately pave the future of 24 bits for the mainstream public..

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2006, 10:05:48 AM »
I think the winner of Bluray vs HD DVD, will ultimately pave the future of 24 bits for the mainstream public..

Right and herein lies the rub, until the CD market is fully played out and 24bit media, players, etc are as commonplace, 16bit will be here for awhile, just my ops ...
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2006, 12:33:27 PM »
I think the winner of Bluray vs HD DVD, will ultimately pave the future of 24 bits for the mainstream public..

Well both support and use 24bit.  A friend at CES this year for things unrelated to audio gear asked me what 24bit was when he got back becuase he said that every new audio product from the home to portables to the car was pushing 24bit. 

I believe that 24bit recording and playback are going to come to the forefront a whole lot sooner than we all suspect.  Be it in one year or three years.  The music business needs money like the movie business needed it right before DVD's were being pushed.  With Blue-Ray or HD-DVD going to be the new standard we can expect a huge new media blitz.  Gotta have the best audio since I have the best plasma mentality. 

While I agree 16bit has sounded good to my ears for as long as I can remember its will be like those folks who still swear by vinyl.  Great sound but not the format of today or tomorrow.  The fact that there are a few units in the yard sale as well as on several other audio gear sites tells me that the days are numbered.  If 24bit isn't the beast that its expected to be those units would have been snapped up within a couple of days at the most.   When was the last period of time thatyou saw an Oade mod anything on the market for more that a week or so?

   

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2006, 02:08:45 PM »


I think they are numbered but until home internet upload speeds are increased about 10x it's still a major PITA to seed.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2006, 08:26:42 PM »


I think they are numbered but until home internet upload speeds are increased about 10x it's still a major PITA to seed.

-e

Yep. I'm on Comcast..with the speed upgrade...and I push 85k up. It sure is nice to have that bandwidth for 24bit seeds/downlaods. Takes about 12 hours or so for a typical 3.5gig 24bit seed.  >:D
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2006, 03:15:40 AM »
Aaah, but are we not mixing things up here.

First I do all my recordings at 24 bits. Not because it sounds any different from 16 bits, because it does not to my ears, but because I can keep levels low enough to be certain to never get clipping. That is basically all anything above 16 bit is needed for in my book. If you can set your levels just that perfectly exact and ride the volume 16 bit is plenty good enough. Extra much so for stealthing, because there is not very much difference between loud and weak sounds (dynamics). I do classical music which has a bit more dynamic range (difference between loud and weak) which makes setting volumes more difficult.

Next I look at the converter as such. Actually they are all at the most about 20 bits. The last few bits are only random bits due to the noise of analog circuitry. For those that show figures, 20bit true resolution is an S/N of about 120dB. Few portable devices gives that much S/N. The Edirol R1 I tested only gave about 15 bits of true resolution (about 90 dB of S/N), the rest was noise. Using that box I would never record 24 bits, as 16 bits already conveys all the information there is.

After the recording I edit the stuff in a program in a computer. Here I can EQ, compress, limit and so on before fixing down to 16bit with dither to put on a CD. Of course in this process I use the facilities in the computer, and this means that inside the program the data is 32 bit float or more.

Finally on the CD 16 bit is generally good enough. I might want more when sitting in a totally silent acoustically treated listening room with top-level equipment. Any other situation 16 bit is to my ears actually plenty, often records has a bit too large dynamic range, especially in the car. For car use I generally compress everything a bit more as otherwise the quiet passages gets drowned in noise. Stealthing recordings never has very much dynamics so they are all fine there. Remember, the sound of 16 or 24 bit is mainly constricted by the analogue circuits.

So back to the question. In my mind the limiting factor for most recordings is not the 16/24 bit digital part. Instead it is the analog circuits - low-priced or badly designed analog circuits tend to be noisy and not sound so good regardless of the converter. High-quality well-designed circuits will sound good in front of a 16 bit converter, and the only drawback is the need for the user to be a bit more careful in setting levels. But a really good user will get really good results from a 16bit machine. So if we all stay tuned and hone our skills we will get lots of good use out of 16 bit equipment for a long time to come.

Gunnar

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2006, 07:40:47 AM »
So back to the question. In my mind the limiting factor for most recordings is not the 16/24 bit digital part. Instead it is the analog circuits - low-priced or badly designed analog circuits tend to be noisy and not sound so good regardless of the converter. High-quality well-designed circuits will sound good in front of a 16 bit converter, and the only drawback is the need for the user to be a bit more careful in setting levels. But a really good user will get really good results from a 16bit machine. So if we all stay tuned and hone our skills we will get lots of good use out of 16 bit equipment for a long time to come.

Gunnar


as I said earlier in this thread, I'll take good quality 16bit over "eh" 24 any day.
and that all depends on the analog section of the gear.  A quality preamp will just smoke no matter what is behind it for A/D.

but also, it is very easy for me to hear an improvment in resolution when using a quality preamp AND 24bit A/D behind it.  I think your playback method is the big deciding factor here.  You certainly cant hear it in a car, due the noise as you pointed out.  But you can certainly hear it over headphones and a quality headphone amp.
for example..
use a benchmark or Grace headphone amp/DAC combo and tell me you cant hear a difference.  I'll say "go clean your ears".

Even on "mid fi" home system w/loudspeakers, you can hear the difference.  Of course, you can REALLY hear it once you start getting deeper into the HiFi game.  A great DAC, awesome amplifications and most importantly a quality set of speakers can show you the niceities of high-rez recording.

but, thats just my opinion.

Offline ghellquist

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2006, 05:29:55 PM »
Nick, I hear it as well.

But to put things into perspective:
- there is a huge difference going from low quality 16 bit equipment to top quality 16 bit.
- but only a small difference going from top quality 16 bit to top quality 24 bit.

I do hear the difference in going to top quality and ddo pay stupid money to get it, but still.

Gunnar

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2006, 08:00:55 PM »
Nick, I hear it as well.

But to put things into perspective:
- there is a huge difference going from low quality 16 bit equipment to top quality 16 bit.
- but only a small difference going from top quality 16 bit to top quality 24 bit.

I do hear the difference in going to top quality and ddo pay stupid money to get it, but still.

Gunnar

well said.

 

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