Topic: Help a newbie out?

[Aladar]

Hi!

So, I want to start taping ASAP, because noone in Czech REpublic really tapes - so chances I'm getting a show I want are prety much zero..
I'm a student, so I don't have much money, so I was looking for the cheapest possible option.. So far, I decided I will be probably getting JB3 (seems people here sell it for 70$ shipped, which is ok, I guess), but don't know anythign more.. so, the question:

-what mic should I get - are Core Sound Low Cost Binaural Microphones enough? I know it's not great and all, but mind you, I just want the show taped, even though it will probably won't be the best.. I found 40$ shipped here, so I think it's a great offer..

-do I need anything else?

-can I get some other recorder for LESS money? (Noticed some of you were giving MD decks for symbolic price, but seems everything is already sold) Keep in mind, this equipment will be just temporary, till I can get ZOOM H2 or something better and some mics.. probably some CA.

Please, don't reply with "wait a bit and get rig for $200 etc., as I said, noone here tapes, so loads of shows won't get taped at all otherwise..

Thanks!

[illconditioned]

Hi!

So, I want to start taping ASAP, because noone in Czech REpublic really tapes - so chances I'm getting a show I want are prety much zero..
I'm a student, so I don't have much money, so I was looking for the cheapest possible option.. So far, I decided I will be probably getting JB3 (seems people here sell it for 70$ shipped, which is ok, I guess), but don't know anythign more.. so, the question:

-what mic should I get - are Core Sound Low Cost Binaural Microphones enough? I know it's not great and all, but mind you, I just want the show taped, even though it will probably won't be the best.. I found 40$ shipped here, so I think it's a great offer..

-do I need anything else?

-can I get some other recorder for LESS money? (Noticed some of you were giving MD decks for symbolic price, but seems everything is already sold) Keep in mind, this equipment will be just temporary, till I can get ZOOM H2 or something better and some mics.. probably some CA.

Please, don't reply with "wait a bit and get rig for $200 etc., as I said, noone here tapes, so loads of shows won't get taped at all otherwise..

Thanks!

The core sound for $40 sounds like a great deal.  Not great mics, but certainly workable, and can't be beat for the price.  I would go with Church Audio or Core Sound, none of the others (giant squid, etc) as they will distort.  If you can get Core or Church for $50 or under, grab them.

For a recorder I recommend a used or closeout deal on a minidisc.  Run mics > battery box (should come with the core mics above?) > md line in.  Adjust levels on the MD.  That is the safest.  You'll get great sound and no distortion with this setup.  I've recorded a lot of shows in the past with this gear and have no complaints.

Your next choice would be to get some gear donated from here.  I'm sure there are some people who may be willing to part with an old MD or some older mics.  See if anyone is interested in the bands you're taping.  Maybe they will volunteer.

Don't spend more than say $100 until you decide what you really want.

Have fun!
  Richard

[Humbug]

So, I want to start taping ASAP, because noone in Czech REpublic really tapes

If you type "czech" into the Dimeadozen search engine, you'll find a (small) bunch of tapers record shows in your country.

If you contact some of them, one or two might lend you equipment to find out if it's for you. It's something I've done for other tapers here in the UK.

Good luck!

[Aladar]

The core sound for $40 sounds like a great deal.  Not great mics, but certainly workable, and can't be beat for the price.  I would go with Church Audio or Core Sound, none of the others (giant squid, etc) as they will distort.  If you can get Core or Church for $50 or under, grab them.

For a recorder I recommend a used or closeout deal on a minidisc.  Run mics > battery box (should come with the core mics above?) > md line in.  Adjust levels on the MD.  That is the safest.  You'll get great sound and no distortion with this setup.  I've recorded a lot of shows in the past with this gear and have no complaints.

Your next choice would be to get some gear donated from here.  I'm sure there are some people who may be willing to part with an old MD or some older mics.  See if anyone is interested in the bands you're taping.  Maybe they will volunteer.

Don't spend more than say $100 until you decide what you really want.

Have fun!
  Richard

Thanks for the reply!
I was thinking about MD recorder as well, but all of the available ones sold here start at $50, in which case I will rather take the JB3..
As with the battery box.. is it necerssary? It doesn't seem to come with the mics, and to behonest I don't even know what does it do..

As with donation.. I would be eternally greatful for any donated gear, but I didn't want to post any thread to seem like I'm some kind of freeloader begging for free stuff.

The bands I'm going to tape aren't really clear yet, as the only gig I know for sure I'm going to is Deathstars/The Birthday Massacre/Dope Stars Inc./Diary of Dreams minifest, and it's next month, so the package won't probably arrive by then.. other than that I'm hoping to catch Psychic TV gig in Prague..

If you type "czech" into the Dimeadozen search engine, you'll find a (small) bunch of tapers record shows in your country.

If you contact some of them, one or two might lend you equipment to find out if it's for you. It's something I've done for other tapers here in the UK.

Good luck!

Thanks, I'll look into it - Though, the thing is I would take this as a last resort, because anthing can happen at the gigs and the last thing I would want is having to pay broken Edirol R-9 (those things are ridiculously expensive here) and mics to someone..

[illconditioned]

The core sound for $40 sounds like a great deal.  Not great mics, but certainly workable, and can't be beat for the price.  I would go with Church Audio or Core Sound, none of the others (giant squid, etc) as they will distort.  If you can get Core or Church for $50 or under, grab them.

For a recorder I recommend a used or closeout deal on a minidisc.  Run mics > battery box (should come with the core mics above?) > md line in.  Adjust levels on the MD.  That is the safest.  You'll get great sound and no distortion with this setup.  I've recorded a lot of shows in the past with this gear and have no complaints.

Your next choice would be to get some gear donated from here.  I'm sure there are some people who may be willing to part with an old MD or some older mics.  See if anyone is interested in the bands you're taping.  Maybe they will volunteer.

Don't spend more than say $100 until you decide what you really want.

Have fun!
  Richard

Thanks for the reply!
I was thinking about MD recorder as well, but all of the available ones sold here start at $50, in which case I will rather take the JB3..
As with the battery box.. is it necerssary? It doesn't seem to come with the mics, and to behonest I don't even know what does it do..

As with donation.. I would be eternally greatful for any donated gear, but I didn't want to post any thread to seem like I'm some kind of freeloader begging for free stuff.

The bands I'm going to tape aren't really clear yet, as the only gig I know for sure I'm going to is Deathstars/The Birthday Massacre/Dope Stars Inc./Diary of Dreams minifest, and it's next month, so the package won't probably arrive by then.. other than that I'm hoping to catch Psychic TV gig in Prague..

If you type "czech" into the Dimeadozen search engine, you'll find a (small) bunch of tapers record shows in your country.

If you contact some of them, one or two might lend you equipment to find out if it's for you. It's something I've done for other tapers here in the UK.

Good luck!

Thanks, I'll look into it - Though, the thing is I would take this as a last resort, because anthing can happen at the gigs and the last thing I would want is having to pay broken Edirol R-9 (those things are ridiculously expensive here) and mics to someone..

As the other poster suggested, I would suggest finding a local taper to help you out.  If you're an electronics guru (like myself) you can work alone, both otherwise it is better to have someone help you out.. and possibly lend gear.

  Richard

[attheshow]

A battery box provides power to the mics. Most 3.5mm plug mics require 1.5 - 12 volts of power. The more power you get to them, the more sound pressure (volume) they can handle. A minidisc will give them 1.5-2.5 volts if you use the "mic in" port. I'm not sure about the JB3.

If you're handy with a soldering iron you can make your own... do a search for "greenmachine battery box".

[fandelive]

As with the battery box.. is it necerssary? It doesn't seem to come with the mics, and to behonest I don't even know what does it do..

The bands you listed sound like it's gonna be loud music. You'll need a battery box to power the mics. Otherwise, the recording will be distorded.

[Aladar]

Oh, thanks.
Well, that will certainly make things more difficult, since I can't make one myself.. and any extra cash is almost impossible to get for me atm..

So it seems, right now, if I won't be lucky enough to find someone with old MD recorder, the price is gonna go up to 160$ or more.. damn.

I don't want to seem like a cheap beggar bum, but is there any place I can ask if someone has spare MD for sale for symbolic price? I know there is Yard Sale, but it's kind of weird to start topic like "ISO: MD for free/very cheap".. It makes me feel.. like a beggar. And I don't want that!

[fandelive]

You'll be able to find alot of second hand minidiscs on the internet (e-bay and so on...) but if I were you I'd go with the JB3 and the CSBs and look for a second hand battery box instead of the minidisc.

If you really want to buy a minidisc, make sure it has a line input cos' you want to plug the mics + battery box into the line-in (not mic-in).

If you go with the second hand battery box option, make sure it has a bass roll-off option. Using omnidirectional caps, you'll need to filter some bass.

[jbell]

JB3 in the YS, might want to see if you can strike a deal!

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,126956.0.html

[illconditioned]

Oh, thanks.
Well, that will certainly make things more difficult, since I can't make one myself.. and any extra cash is almost impossible to get for me atm..

So it seems, right now, if I won't be lucky enough to find someone with old MD recorder, the price is gonna go up to 160$ or more.. damn.

I don't want to seem like a cheap beggar bum, but is there any place I can ask if someone has spare MD for sale for symbolic price? I know there is Yard Sale, but it's kind of weird to start topic like "ISO: MD for free/very cheap".. It makes me feel.. like a beggar. And I don't want that!

Go ahead and post in the YS.  No shame in asking.  If I had one (an older MD), I would send it to you.

  Richard

[Aladar]

Go ahead and post in the YS.  No shame in asking.  If I had one (an older MD), I would send it to you.

  Richard

OK, I'll post

Right now, I discovered iRiver H120 in YS for 100$, which is a pretty good deal I think, so I will probably get that - and if not, I'll post the ISO thread.

Normally, I wouldn't give 100$ for a recorder, but seeing as it's 20GB MP3 player as well, I will definitely have a use for it, even if I won't tape.

jmbell, There is JB3 for 70$ as well here in YS. But I'll rather get the iRiver, as it's smaller.

[beatkilla]

You'll be able to find alot of second hand minidiscs on the internet (e-bay and so on...) but if I were you I'd go with the JB3 and the CSBs and look for a second hand battery box instead of the minidisc.

If you really want to buy a minidisc, [u]make sure it has a line input[/u] cos' you want to plug the mics + battery box into the line-in (not mic-in).

If you go with the second hand battery box option, make sure it has a bass roll-off option. Using omnidirectional caps, you'll need to filter some bass.

I thought that bass roll off is not possible thru line in.I record with CSBs and battery box into minidisc mic in directly in front of PA stacks with zero distortion.Line in to me does not sound as good.

[Aladar]

beatkilla, I noticed you have Sony ECM-719.. how is it? I downloaded some tapes done with Core Sound Low Cost Binaural Microphones, and seemed to me that ECM-719 is actually a bit better..

Right now, I'm choosing between SP-BMC-2, ECM-719 and the Core Sounds.. what would you think is the best one for beginning?

[beatkilla]

The Sony ecm 719 is OK but i never tried to record directly in front of stack with it.For starters i would say Sony ecm 719 or low cost CSBs(get the ones with -20db attenuator built in)should be fine.BUT your best option would be the CSBs with battery box with bass roll off .Or you may prefer the CSC's sound to the CSB.With the CSB you'll have alot of bass thats why i mention using bass roll off.If you don't want to mess around with audio post production than i would say get the CSC's or the sony ecm.

[Aladar]

I'm kind of confused with the abbreviations.. CSC are stealthy cardioids and CSB are binaurals? I assume we are talking low cost ones, right?

I sure don't want to spenfd muhc time post-processing.. so do you think Sonys? It's all the same price range, but I don't want to get the wrong one.. Would the Sony need Batt box too?

[jbell]

It you are spending $100 I would go $50 more and get the deal on the MTII in the retail section if it is still available!  Then you can have 24bit.

[Aladar]

It you are spending $100 I would go $50 more and get the deal on the MTII in the retail section if it is still available!  Then you can have 24bit.

Nah, that's too much.. I will get MTII when I upgrade, but I want this one for the starting rig - because, if anything happens and I won't tape, I will be left with good 20GB MP3 player..

(I think I will get stoned to death here now, but I can't tell the difference between 16bit and 24bit anyway.. so no use in that..)

[attheshow]

I use a Sony ECM-719 sometimes. Honestly, I've gotten some decent tapes with it, and would recommend it as a starter mic in your budget.

Advantages:
Does not require a battery box, you insert a small watch battery in the mic itself to power it.
Simple, single point stereo... it's basically point and shoot... no need to think about mic patterns.
Cardiod pattern should limit some crowd noise, boominess.

Disadvantages:
Frequency range is sub-optimal... 100Hz to 15kHz (human hearing is optimally 20hHz to 20kHz)
No way to change mic patterns
Not as small/easy to conceal as the other mics you are looking at.

Listen here for an example recorded with the ECM-719. Small club, about 10 feet from the stage:
http://www.archive.org/details/raq2007-09-14.ats.flac16

If you wanted to spend thousands of $$$ on equipment you could get sound like this: (same show, same taping location)
http://www.archive.org/details/raq2007-09-14

For me, the ecm-719 was a good starting point.

[Aladar]

Seems I will go with it, then - I don't really want to worry about mic patterns right now, because I know basically nothing, and I'd rather point and tape then having to experiment ending with useless tapes.. No battery box is a huge advantage, because I'm looking to spare any buck I can.. And honestly, I don't know if it's just me, but I liked tapes made with the Sony the best out of those three.. Thanks for advice.

EDIT:
So I looked around here for the sales and dropped a few mails, and so far it seems I will be gettting iRiver H120 ($100) with Sony ECM-719 (40€) - I think it's great price and will get me some listenable tapes, what do you think?

[fandelive]

So I looked around here for the sales and dropped a few mails, and so far it seems I will be getting iRiver H120 ($100) with Sony ECM-719 (40€) - I think it's great price and will get me some listenable tapes, what do you think?

iRiver H120 is a very good option. Core Sound Low Cost Binaurals might give you better results than Sony's ECM-719 which has very poor high frequencies response.

Saying that, I started with a Sony ECM-717 (older brother of the 719) myself. When it's about recording an intimate acoustic showcase given in front of 100 people by a band that allow taping and that you sit front row, you're gonna be very satisfied. But not for more (loud hard rock or metal shows, and so on...).

Low cost binaurals are a better option for a newbie that is looking for versatile mics that will give you honorable results (+ they are highly conceable).

[rhinowing]

I've gotta recommend these: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

I've pulled some absolutely great recordings with them, and only run about $50 bucks

[fandelive]

There you go : http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,26377.0.html.
Dynamic Audio omnis + battery box with bass roll-off option.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) those are the same panasonic omnidirectional caps than SP-BMC-2, Giant Squid Omnis...

[rhinowing]

I always thought the sp-bmc-2 was a wm-61a cap?

[Aladar]

iRiver H120 is a very good option. Core Sound Low Cost Binaurals might give you better results than Sony's ECM-719 which has very poor high frequencies response.

Saying that, I started with a Sony ECM-717 (older brother of the 719) myself. When it's about recording an intimate acoustic showcase given in front of 100 people by a band that allow taping and that you sit front row, you're gonna be very satisfied. But not for more (loud hard rock or metal shows, and so on...).

Low cost binaurals are a better option for a newbie that is looking for versatile mics that will give you honorable results (+ they are highly conceable).

Well, I actually listened to some tapes made with ECM-719, and they sounded mighty fine to me.. Most of them were metal/industrial/punk..
The big advantage is that I won't need a battery box - I'm on HUGE budget, so even the extra 30 will do a lot to me.. Maybe it's just that I have bad repros so I don't hear the frequency difference?

On the other hand, the LCBs sounded horribly dull to me on most tapes I downloaded.. the sound was horribly "distant" and lacked any depth, and it was taped with preamp as well I think..

[acidjack]

[/quote]

Thanks, I'll look into it - Though, the thing is I would take this as a last resort, because anthing can happen at the gigs and the last thing I would want is having to pay broken Edirol R-9 (those things are ridiculously expensive here) and mics to someone..
[/quote]

The R-09HR is pretty tough to break - I had a cop throw mine on the ground once (long story, but they mistook the R-09HR for a package of dope and tried to arrest me until they figured out what it was) and it was fine.  Unless you are in the middle of mosh pits all the time, you should be fine. Even in a moshpit, just protect the gear a little. But if you are taping, you shouldn't be in a mosh pit anyway.  I think most of the other recorders are pretty sturdy also.  The JB3 maybe a touch less so because it has that plastic clamshell design and a hard drive in it, and a hard drive is more susceptible to being damaged than something that is fully solid state.

[fandelive]

Well, I actually listened to some tapes made with ECM-719, and they sounded mighty fine to me.. Most of them were metal/industrial/punk..
On the other hand, the LCBs sounded horribly dull to me on most tapes I downloaded..

Well,
as long as you are pleased with the results, you've made the right choice

Getting good results while taping a live show also has a lot to do with the sound and crowd at venues and you standing at the best spot.

[Aladar]

Well, guess it's decided, the iRiver was sold, so I'm without a recorder..

thanks for help anyway.

[sunjan]

Well, guess it's decided, the iRiver was sold, so I'm without a recorder..

OK, here's my take on a ultra-low budget rig:
$23 + s/h: Panasonic omnis (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110436418804, ebay seller micro_sound, doesn't list Europe as shipping destination but maybe you can haggle)

$70 + s/h: going rate for H320 on ebay (with a bit of patience).
or
$75 + s/h: going rate for Sony MZ-NH700 on ebay (with a bit of patience). Built in mic preamp and 16/44.

Recommended additions:
add a Church bbox ($30 + s/h) or a Church pre ($100 and upwards) to this for better powering and gain.

For analog taping, it makes no sense to go for a JB3. Compared with a H320, they cost the same but the H320 has better ADC and 24dB of analog gain.

[Aladar]

Well, guess it's decided, the iRiver was sold, so I'm without a recorder..

OK, here's my take on a ultra-low budget rig:
$23 + s/h: Panasonic omnis (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110436418804, ebay seller micro_sound, doesn't list Europe as shipping destination but maybe you can haggle)

$70 + s/h: going rate for H320 on ebay (with a bit of patience).
or
$75 + s/h: going rate for Sony MZ-NH700 on ebay (with a bit of patience). Built in mic preamp and 16/44.

Recommended additions:
add a Church bbox ($30 + s/h) or a Church pre ($100 and upwards) to this for better powering and gain.

For analog taping, it makes no sense to go for a JB3. Compared with a H320, they cost the same but the H320 has better ADC and 24dB of analog gain.

I can't find any H320 on ebay, except one.. I think it will be pretty hard to get..
Also, I decided I don't want just a recorder for my frist rig, I want an MP3 player that can record PCM recordings.. thasts why the iRivers would be ideal for me.. are there any other alternatives to it? It seems pretty hard to get sofar..

[fandelive]

Maybe a rockboxed iPod, but I'm not a specialist...

[sunjan]

I can't find any H320 on ebay, except one.. I think it will be pretty hard to get..
Also, I decided I don't want just a recorder for my first rig, I want an MP3 player that can record PCM recordings.. thasts why the iRivers would be ideal for me.. are there any other alternatives to it? It seems pretty hard to get sofar..

Patience, young maverick!
Obviously, you didn't use the search function properly.
I get 17 hits, all with current bids less than €40:
http://tinyurl.com/y9w6zka

At least one of them allows shipping to the Czech republic, so you just have to be persistant and hang in there:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320427029574

My experience is that many German sellers are willing to ship to other EU countries, if you ask nicely. With some canvasing, you have your iriver within 2-3 weeks!

[Aladar]

I can't find any H320 on ebay, except one.. I think it will be pretty hard to get..
Also, I decided I don't want just a recorder for my first rig, I want an MP3 player that can record PCM recordings.. thasts why the iRivers would be ideal for me.. are there any other alternatives to it? It seems pretty hard to get sofar..

Patience, young maverick!
Obviously, you didn't use the search function properly.
I get 17 hits, all with current bids less than €40:
http://tinyurl.com/y9w6zka

At least one of them allows shipping to the Czech republic, so you just have to be persistant and hang in there:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320427029574

My experience is that many German sellers are willing to ship to other EU countries, if you ask nicely. With some canvasing, you have your iriver within 2-3 weeks!

Hah! Seems I really didn't use it properly.
I am already on the auction you linked, that one looks promising so far.. Nice to have alternatives, though!
By the way, is there any real significant difference between H120 and H320, aside from the obvious age issue and hard drive space?

[goodcooker]

I put a older MD recorder in the gear loaner program way back in 2007. If you can track it down and pay whoever has it for shipping to Czech you can have it. Last I heard user RyanJ used it for some transfers.

http://www.taperssection.com/index.php/topic,94584.0.html

[Aladar]

I put a older MD recorder in the gear loaner program way back in 2007. If you can track it down and pay whoever has it for shipping to Czech you can have it. Last I heard user RyanJ used it for some transfers.

http://www.taperssection.com/index.php/topic,94584.0.html

Thanks, I sent him a PM!

[sunjan]

By the way, is there any real significant difference between H120 and H320, aside from the obvious age issue and hard drive space?

From a taper perspective, the only significant difference is the optical in on the H1x0 series. This provides an upgrade path if you decide to add an external AD (like the UA-5) to your chain later on.

That's why the H3x0 series are usually cheaper, at least in the taper community.