Topic: new to taping, h4n advise

[Alex.Stone]

Wow, this site is a wealth of knowledge!

how big are the CA 14s?
also when do i use the cardioid vs omni mics? i will mostly be taping at outdoor festivals, and some amphitheaters (Red Rocks)   
 

im assuming the best place to set up is close to the soundboard right?

[adrianf74]

how big are the CA 14s?
also when do i use the cardioid vs omni mics? i will mostly be taping at outdoor festivals, and some amphitheaters (Red Rocks)   

im assuming the best place to set up is close to the soundboard right?

Go here for a pic of the new CA-14's with the 20% smaller membrane... http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136212.msg1784866#msg1784866.  Keep in mind that the clips are standard "alligator" type clips so if you know what the size of those, then you're set.  One of the pics has the CAFS omnis next to them (which I - and others - use for 007 situations).

Cardioid vs. Omni depends on many things.  Generally speaking, Omni mics are _generally_ the preferred choice when outdoors because wind can be a major problem with cardioid mics.  Cardioid mics pick up wind in your recording a lot easier than omni mics do.  That's not to say that you can't use Cards outdoors -- I have -- it's just that you might end up with more wind noise.  If you're in an open situation, you could consider ordering Chris' Dead Rats as well for the CA-14's if you go that route.  I haven't used my rats, yet, but plan to try them out later this month depending on the weather. 

As far as placement, this is also a personal preference.  Generally speaking, I prefer to record closer with omni mics and further back with cards (although I have been known to record from the first 5-15 rows on the floor at a stadium show with cards - it just depends on the venue).  So if you're stack tapig (or about 20 - 30 feet from the stage/speakers), go omni.  If you're about 2/3 of the way to the soundboard (or right in front of it), go cards.  This changes in club situations but this is the general rule I (and others) have gone with.

[fmaderjr]

The CA-14's (even in their "new" configuration with smaller windscreen) are still quite noticeable but I have used them in a 007 environment without issue.  As you suggest, I usually clip the mics "upwards" with the built in clips along the sides of my temple on the underside of the cap with the elements facing forwards.  The CA-14 OMNI/CARDS and Preamp package is a steal for $280 + shipping.  Some might say the CA-14's are too big for 007 and go with the CA-11's for that reason.  I also have a CAFS omni mic with Ugly Battery Box for the times where I need to be 007 and can't bring in a preamp or want to risk being shut down with the CA-14's.

I don't think you'll go wrong with Church Gear... however, you need to come to that decision for yourself.

Count me as one of the enthusiasts. Even the old CA-14's are simple to stealth with if you hide them in the folded up liner of a hat, like a Kangol. And they sound better than any mics you can get for twice the cash.

If you can get an UGLY battery box into the venue, you could also get in an UGLY preamp. Personally, I prefer the larger ST-9100 for its easy gain adjustment and it is still small enough that I could get it into and use it in any venue.

[adrianf74]

Count me as one of the enthusiasts. Even the old CA-14's are simple to stealth with if you hide them in the folded up liner of a hat, like a Kangol. And they sound better than any mics you can get for twice the cash.

If you can get an UGLY battery box into the venue, you could also get in an UGLY preamp. Personally, I prefer the larger ST-9100 for its easy gain adjustment and it is still small enough that I could get it into and use it in any venue.

True...  there's apparently a 20% size difference (which isn't much) on the new build versus the original.  I thought about the Kangol but I'd look pretty dumb in one.

I'd go a step further in your comment about sounding better than any mics you can get for twice the cash.  I'd say better than mics costing 3-6 times the cost as well (depending on where you're recording from).  I've heard recordings made with DPA 4061's that sound worse than my CAFS mics.

Worth noting... the Ugly battery box is great for it's 007-ability, however, I don't like the fact that I'd need to carry a mini screwdriver with me to make adjustments.  The 9100 is still the way to go IMHO.

And yes, fmadejr, you've got me beat in mic choices.  I'm happy with the CAFS and the CA-14/o and CA-14/c.  That gives me enough choices for the time being.. the CA-11's don't make a lot of sense for me atm (talk to me next month).

[fmaderjr]

I'd go a step further in your comment about sounding better than any mics you can get for twice the cash.  I'd say better than mics costing 3-6 times the cost as well (depending on where you're recording from).  I've heard recordings made with DPA 4061's that sound worse than my CAFS mics.

I agree with that (at least for the cardioids, and I know the omnis are well regarded too), but I didn't have the guts to write it because I figured someone would jump on me.

My recordings wouldn't suffer if all I had were CA-14 cards & omnis to choose from. I never got the omnis because I already had DPA 4060's when they came out. I occasionally break out my HUGE pair of Studio Projects CS5's.  They are of course much more versatile than CA-14's (5 choices of patterns) but they don't really sound audibly better to me (at least when a fairly low noise floor is not required).

[adrianf74]

I agree with that (at least for the cardioids, and I know the omnis are well regarded too), but I didn't have the guts to write it because I figured someone would jump on me.

My recordings wouldn't suffer if all I had were CA-14 cards & omnis to choose from. I never got the omnis because I already had DPA 4060's when they came out. I occasionally break out my HUGE pair of Studio Projects CS5's.  They are of course much more versatile than CA-14's (5 choices of patterns) but they don't really sound audibly better to me (at least when a fairly low noise floor is not required).

I've already been jumped on my a few people but I have to ask if a mic that costs 3-to-8 times the price is really going to offer 3-to-8 times the improvement in recording; the answer, simply put, is it will not.

I don't have the 4060... I had thought about the 4061 for a bit but then decided my money was better saved/spent on replacing my old SP-CMC-8's (AT-933/C) with something else... so I kept the CAFS that I have (when I need to go deep 007) and bought the CA-14's for when the availability to use them is there.  Obviously, I'm gonna try and run the CA-14's when I can (/C or /O) but sometimes it's just impossibe under the circumstances.  Safe to say that I wouldn't have bought the omnis either if I owned what you have already.

[stevetoney]

I think it's a fact about our hobby that there is an entry level price that is paid to get a basic decent setup for recording and getting decent sound.  Whether that sound is acceptable to you can only be determined by you and you alone.  Incrementally, the amount spent for better sound is definitely NOT a linear relationship.  IOW, if you pay two times the price, you cannot and generally will not get two times the improvement in sound even if that COULD be measured, which of course it can't.  Whether one person can justify the incremental costs it takes to get that sound improvement is, again a personal choice.  Many people will spare no expense to get the best sound they possibly can, but when that source is held up against an A/B'ed source made with Church Audio gear, the CA gear is definitely gonna hold its own.  That's not to say that the person that spent the extra money isn't getting his money's worth though because he's getting what he paid for.  The bottom line though is that, in this hobby, spending thousands more doesn't guarantee order's of magnitude in sound improvement.

[mloewen]

Well put Tone I am amazed at the quality for price for Church Audio gear. Got my preamp upgrade today.

[adrianf74]

The bottom line though is that, in this hobby, spending thousands more doesn't guarantee order's of magnitude in sound improvement.

What I said... only a little more detailed.

I've always said the sound of mics/gear will be a personal preference.  I just think that for the price of Chris' gear, it's pretty inexpensive for what it is, and yields excellent results. 

I spent more on my Sound Professionals CMC-8's (AT-933) with Battery Box - around US$300 + shipping quite a few years ago.  A similar mic and battery box (CA-14/C with Ugly Battery Box) will usually run HALF of that.  And I find the CA-14/C to be a better mic to my ears (even if it is a tad bright). 

[stevetoney]

The bottom line though is that, in this hobby, spending thousands more doesn't guarantee order's of magnitude in sound improvement.

What I said... only a little more detailed.

Right. 

One of the points of my response was to point out that beauty is in the ear of the beholder.  Although one may not be able to understand why I've spent so much more on my Schoeps gear for the incremental improvement over the great sound that is obtained from a CA-14 rig, it's also a personal choice that I'd probably do over again and again.  Audio gear sluttiness is funny that way.   

[adrianf74]

One of the points of my response was to point out that beauty is in the ear of the beholder.  Although one may not be able to understand why I've spent so much more on my Schoeps gear for the incremental improvement over the great sound that is obtained from a CA-14 rig, it's also a personal choice that I'd probably do over again and again.  Audio gear sluttiness is funny that way.   

I fully agree.  If I had an unlimited budget and was single, I'd probably be looking for the "next best thing" in mics.  Unfortunately, I have a limited budget (well: none to be exact) and a better half who would kill me if I dropped $600-$1000 on mics.  Even picking up the 9100/CA-14 bundle was a push for me right now.

I think there are two things to note here: it's great to spend lots of money on the best your money can buy, however, it's also important to note that you needn't spend a big chunk of change anymore to get reasonably decent results.  I remember my first "big purchase" of a TCD-D7 and Core Sound Binaurals back in '94 (or thereabouts).  The mics and battery box weren't cheap (around $220 at the time) and the D7 was $1000.  By comparison, I could have a pair of omnis, cards, a pre-amp and a digital recorder for somewhere around $500 (less than half of that). 

[stevetoney]

One of the points of my response was to point out that beauty is in the ear of the beholder.  Although one may not be able to understand why I've spent so much more on my Schoeps gear for the incremental improvement over the great sound that is obtained from a CA-14 rig, it's also a personal choice that I'd probably do over again and again.  Audio gear sluttiness is funny that way.   

I fully agree.  If I had an unlimited budget and was single, I'd probably be looking for the "next best thing" in mics.  Unfortunately, I have a limited budget (well: none to be exact) and a better half who would kill me if I dropped $600-$1000 on mics. 

OMG, I passed $1000 SUCH a long time ago...and yes my wife would kill me if she knew that I spent a grand on audio gear.   

[adrianf74]

OMG, I passed $1000 SUCH a long time ago...and yes my wife would kill me if she knew that I spent a grand on audio gear.   

Dontcha mean DIVORCE YOU?   

[stevetoney]

LOL...divorce...kill...potatoe...po-tah-to.

Actually, she's OK with it...I was basically just blowing smoke.  The reality is that our agreement is that as long as I don't hit her up for money for my hobby or take it out of our household budget (that pays the bills), she's OK with whatever I spend.  She knows that I've spent way more than a grand on my hobby...she just doesn't know the total amount.  I've paid for it using my monthly allowance and my extra expense money that I've gotten from extensive traveling that I do with my job.  It's just that now and then she's halfheartedly asked how much I have invested in my gear and, while I have a decent guess at the total, I only let her know that it's too much for me to let her know the total...or my other standard answer is 'you don't want to know' to which she usually reply's 'no, you don't WANT me to know'...and I just smile and agree and leave it at that.

As many packages as she sees me sending and receiving, she's not naive enough to know that I'd be serious if I ever tried to convince her I don't have much invested.   

[adrianf74]

LOL...divorce...kill...potatoe...po-tah-to.

Actually, she's OK with it...I was basically just blowing smoke.  The reality is that our agreement is that as long as I don't hit her up for money for my hobby or take it out of our household budget (that pays the bills), she's OK with whatever I spend.  She knows that I've spent way more than a grand on my hobby...she just doesn't know the total amount.  I've paid for it using my monthly allowance and my extra expense money that I've gotten from extensive traveling that I do with my job.  It's just that now and then she's halfheartedly asked how much I have invested in my gear and, while I have a decent guess at the total, I only let her know that it's too much for me to let her know the total...or my other standard answer is 'you don't want to know' to which she usually reply's 'no, you don't WANT me to know'...and I just smile and agree and leave it at that.

As many packages as she sees me sending and receiving, she's not naive enough to know that I'd be serious if I ever tried to convince her I don't have much invested.   

LOL.  That 'generic' answer always seems to work.

I'm quite fortunate in that my better half doesn't mind me taping (and she's pretty quiet, too, when she's next to me at shows).  If it's GA and she wants to be noisy, she'll find her way closer to the stage.  She doesn't give me a hard time about what I spend but if I dropped some significant coin (i.e., more than what I just did with Chris - about C$450 after tax), she'd be reminding me how it's better spent on paying off debts, etc., and trying to plan for the future.  Luckily half of that was subsidized by the sale of some old gear.  Of course, that $450 doesn't include the CAFS I already owned from last year... or the deck.  But I think the $850-900 dropped to date is a good "ending" point .... FOR NOW