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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: laptaper on September 01, 2006, 03:32:46 PM
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I'm about to return my Edirol R-09 for the second and last time after having had the input jack come loose with little or no stress. Has anyone else had this problem, or do I just not know how to take care of my equipment? Someone up at Gathering of the Vibes had the exact problem, and the custromer service rep I spoke with at Sweetwater said they'd been getting a lot of returns with the same problem.
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Specifically what input jack (mic, line)?
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So far so good with mine. I have used it on about 10 different dates and connect via a lightweight Radio Shack RCA to Mini cable.
What type of cable have you been using?
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Line input, and standard Radio Shack RCA to mini line. I even went so far as to put it in a clear plastic container with a ventilated lid and holes drilled for the input and output lines, with both lines taped to the outside so the container, not the unit, would take the stress of any unexpected tugs. Still fritzed out on me, though.
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I had this exact problem with the first R-09 I got from Sound Pros.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to test out my R-09 until after it had already been over 30 days (due to getting repeatedly bad 2GB SD cards from an ebay seller, and the fact that no SD card came with the original R-09, I had no reason to plug mics into it if I couldn't even test out the recorder at home). So, at my first outting with it, the very first time I plugged my battery box into the R-09, the Line Input jack broke completely. It was picking up a signal (or so it appeared), but it was obviously not very usable in that condition.
Again, since I was over the 30-day warranty thing from the dealer (it was technically like 36 days), I had to go through Roland, and it was a nightmare from start to finish. (Which has made me contemplate never getting Roland products again... it should not be such a hassle to get a product that's still under warranty to be repaired/replaced). They did, however, end up sending me a new unit after a ton of time spent on the phone arguing with them. I tried the input jacks on the replacement unit, and it seems to be much better.
FWIW, the original R-09 that I got had firmware version 1.02, and as I said, it did not even come with the crappy 64 MB SD card. However, the replacement R-09 had firmware version 1.03 and came with a crappy 64 MB SD card. The newer R-09 also had specific instructions (with pictures) warning the user to use "CAUTION" when opening the (shoddy designed) battery door.
Overall, I do like the R-09 but I have to admit that I am concerned that the next time I plug mics into it, the Input jack will break. This should not be the case... I mean, come on, you can get a crappy walkman at WalMart and its input jack can take normal usage with flying colors... yet the $399 recorder by Roland flunked out on the first time when plugging something into its jack.
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On the issue of retailers, I have to (once again) highly recommend Sweetwater. They have bent into pretzel shapes helping me out with returns and replacements. Their prices are also very reasonable. They are very hands on and will go to the ends of the earth to help you with whatever you need. If you end up with Paddy Steading as your sales rep, you are in very good hands indeed.
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I just checked mine and they seem find.....Thank you for the heads up....I'll keep an eye on them...
Peace,
jk
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Do you think you just got lemons? I would think this issue would be reported in these forums already if it was widespread?.
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Line input, and standard Radio Shack RCA to mini line. I even went so far as to put it in a clear plastic container with a ventilated lid and holes drilled for the input and output lines, with both lines taped to the outside so the container, not the unit, would take the stress of any unexpected tugs. Still fritzed out on me, though.
While your experience with such early jack failure is suspect as caused by less than good jack-to-PCB board solder weld that failed, using ANY type of straight plug, even with carefully securing the cords, still allows a strong force on the plug's cord strain relief to torque hard sideways and maybe tweak the jack to early wearout.
Suggest ONLY using low profile molded right angle plug with NO hard plastic sticking out( as shown below). This eliminates chance of significant side torgue applied to the jack when handling or pocketing the deck, and even if unintentionally pushing against the plug's molded plastic, the side torgue possible is greatly reduced over straight plugs and overly large extended molded right/angle types, and therefore not likely to damage the jack.
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Hmmm... that setup looks familliar... Only used 3 times.. but have had no problems.
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Suggest ONLY using low profile molded right angle plug with NO hard plastic sticking out( as shown below). This eliminates chance of significant side torgue applied to the jack when handling or pocketing the deck, and even if unintentionally pushing against the plug's molded plastic, the side torgue possible is greatly reduced over straight plugs and overly large extended molded right/angle types, and therefore not likely to damage the jack.
Just to amplify on that.. Many right angle plugs will put just as much strain on the socket as straight plugs.. Especially if they get wedged in a pocket. But that's not true of ALL right angle plugs but is true of many. I know Guy makes some of his own plugs and is obviously aware of these issues.
I recently mentioned in another 4061 connector thread that I really like the tiny molded right angle 1/8" plugs that SP uses on their bboxes (I think they're audio technica pigtails). Unfortunately you can't solder those, they must be spliced and that isn't ideal.
If my r09 inputs failed I'm not sure if I'd send it back or fix it myself. If fixing it, I might just solder in a short pigtail with a female socket. That would forever eliminate any socket strain issues at the r09.
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Suggest ONLY using low profile molded right angle plug with NO hard plastic sticking out( as shown below). This eliminates chance of significant side torgue applied to the jack when handling or pocketing the deck, and even if unintentionally pushing against the plug's molded plastic, the side torgue possible is greatly reduced over straight plugs and overly large extended molded right/angle types, and therefore not likely to damage the jack.
Interesting. Looks like I will have to be very careful with the jacks..
Just to amplify on that.. Many right angle plugs will put just as much strain on the socket as straight plugs.. Especially if they get wedged in a pocket. But that's not true of ALL right angle plugs but is true of many. I know Guy makes some of his own plugs and is obviously aware of these issues.
I recently mentioned in another 4061 connector thread that I really like the tiny molded right angle 1/8" plugs that SP uses on their bboxes (I think they're audio technica pigtails). Unfortunately you can't solder those, they must be spliced and that isn't ideal.
If my r09 inputs failed I'm not sure if I'd send it back or fix it myself. If fixing it, I might just solder in a short pigtail with a female socket. That would forever eliminate any socket strain issues at the r09.
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I bought the Edirol 09 in July, and because I was on vacation I didn't get to try it out with my audio tech AT815a shotgun mic until today. I didn't do any recording on vacation. The mic input jack lasted 1 hour, and I treated it carefully, using exactly the same plug I used for bird recording on cassette recorders. The mic works fine with my old equipment so it has to be the jack.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but can I record through the input jack?
Any hints on how to get this to work, the mic jack, or am I SOL.
>:( >:(
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I bought the Edirol 09 in July, and because I was on vacation I didn't get to try it out with my audio tech AT815a shotgun mic until today. I didn't do any recording on vacation. The mic input jack lasted 1 hour, and I treated it carefully, using exactly the same plug I used for bird recording on cassette recorders. The mic works fine with my old equipment so it has to be the jack.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but can I record through the input jack?
Any hints on how to get this to work, the mic jack, or am I SOL.
>:( >:(
You can record using input provided you have something from the mics converting the signal first to line level
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I just got mhy R-09
To test the mic input I assume best way would to shove a jack in and out of the input rapidly to see how it fares (before the 30 day return expires). :)?
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[/quote]
You can record using input provided you have something from the mics converting the signal first to line level
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What item would I use to convert the signal to line level? Thanks for your help, I live pretty isolated in another country, I just hope I have something in my equipment that I can use for this.
I contacted Roland through the Edirol web site, they don't even have the R09 on the product drop down list, and now that I read the fine print it says the product had to be registered within 10 days. There's no way I can call them, I don't know what to do. I tested the unit with all the tests I could think of while I was on vacation and it worked fine, but I didn't have my external mike with me, and how was I to know it was going to fail. I sure wish I would have heard about the mic input problem first.
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No, you need an external mic pre-amp that will output to line level for your R-09
You can record using input provided you have something from the mics converting the signal first to line level
[/quote]
What item would I use to convert the signal to line level? Thanks for your help, I live pretty isolated in another country, I just hope I have something in my equipment that I can use for this.
I contacted Roland through the Edirol web site, they don't even have the R09 on the product drop down list, and now that I read the fine print it says the product had to be registered within 10 days. There's no way I can call them, I don't know what to do. I tested the unit with all the tests I could think of while I was on vacation and it worked fine, but I didn't have my external mike with me, and how was I to know it was going to fail. I sure wish I would have heard about the mic input problem first.
[/quote]
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I just got mhy R-09
To test the mic input I assume best way would to shove a jack in and out of the input rapidly to see how it fares (before the 30 day return expires). :)?
you'd better register it right away.
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I just got mhy R-09
To test the mic input I assume best way would to shove a jack in and out of the input rapidly to see how it fares (before the 30 day return expires). :)?
you'd better register it right away.
Doesn't matter, in the USA registration has nothing to do with the manufacturer warranty.
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Yep, I just looked at my registration card. At the top it says:
"This card is for product registration purposes. Your failure to complete and return this card does not diminish your warrranty rights"
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Well no mic input connection problems here. I am taping now using mic input and vigorously inserting & removing the plug to test it, no problems so far :)
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I am taping now using mic input and vigorously inserting & removing the plug to test it, no problems so far :)
wow, i thought you were joking in your previous post.
i'd hesitate to do anything "vigorously" to the r09, especially anything involving the input jacks. your sob story will be next in this thread.
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I am taping now using mic input and vigorously inserting & removing the plug to test it, no problems so far :)
wow, i thought you were joking in your previous post.
i'd hesitate to do anything "vigorously" to the r09, especially anything involving the input jacks. your sob story will be next in this thread.
Only would be a sob story if I don't do this BEFORE my 30 day return point expires. IMHO burning in a new device is a smart thing to do. I rather it break during the 30 day return rather than dealing with a warranty repair.
just my $0.02
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My R-09 Line-In jack died also. Only the right channel works consistantly now. 6 field uses. Purchased in June. I used an angled connector with no abuse. Am returning it through Sweetwater to Roland with zero hassles from Sweetwater sofar. I hope it all gets resolved because I really like this unit.
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My R-09 Line-In jack died also. Only the right channel works consistantly now. 6 field uses. Purchased in June. I used an angled connector with no abuse. Am returning it through Sweetwater to Roland with zero hassles from Sweetwater sofar. I hope it all gets resolved because I really like this unit.
Wow. I wonder if Edirol had a quality control problem a couple months ago? Anyone with a newer unit from the last month with this issue?
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My R-09 Line-In jack died also. Only the right channel works consistantly now. 6 field uses. Purchased in June. I used an angled connector with no abuse. Am returning it through Sweetwater to Roland with zero hassles from Sweetwater sofar. I hope it all gets resolved because I really like this unit.
Wow. I wonder if Edirol had a quality control problem a couple months ago? Anyone with a newer unit from the last month with this issue?
I am wondering the same thing. I called prodigitalinc.com late last week. Since they are long time known for in and out of warranty deck repairs (and now Oade mod's) I asked about the R-09 only to learn they JUST ordered a bunch of input jacks from Roland for R-09 deck! Before I could inquire further the phone rang there and very busy owner Paul Plotnick had to move on promising a return call.
Hoping a follow-up call may give some insight on just what is going wrong with those jacks.
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The problem I had with my input jack was that it literally broke (the jack became super loose). But it sounds like some people aren't necessarily having a loose jack, but no signal? Very curious situation indeed.
Since my first R-09 input jack broke the very first time I plugged in a battery box, which was at a show, I wanted to test out the replacement unit that Roland sent me. So the day I got my replacement unit from Roland, I put a mini-plug into both the Line and Mic Input jacks and used a fair amount of pressure on them to see if they were weak. But they weren't. It makes me wonder if there's been some slight internal design change, or if there was simply a bad batch (maybe rushing the production to try to get the first couple of batches of the R-09s out there???).
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The problem I had with my input jack was that it literally broke (the jack became super loose). But it sounds like some people aren't necessarily having a loose jack, but no signal? Very curious situation indeed.
Since my first R-09 input jack broke the very first time I plugged in a battery box, which was at a show, I wanted to test out the replacement unit that Roland sent me. So the day I got my replacement unit from Roland, I put a mini-plug into both the Line and Mic Input jacks and used a fair amount of pressure on them to see if they were weak. But they weren't. It makes me wonder if there's been some slight internal design change, or if there was simply a bad batch (maybe rushing the production to try to get the first couple of batches of the R-09s out there???).
I put a fair amount of pressure while continually inserting, removing, and reinserting to the mic-in. No problems at all.
DId this for the line-in as well, no problems so far at all :)
Will play more with it for the next couple of days and try to "break-it" through normal use
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My R-09 Line-In jack died also. Only the right channel works consistantly now. 6 field uses. Purchased in June. I used an angled connector with no abuse. Am returning it through Sweetwater to Roland with zero hassles from Sweetwater sofar. I hope it all gets resolved because I really like this unit.
Wow. I wonder if Edirol had a quality control problem a couple months ago? Anyone with a newer unit from the last month with this issue?
I am wondering the same thing. I called prodigitalinc.com late last week. Since they are long time known for in and out of warranty deck repairs (and now Oade mod's) I asked about the R-09 only to learn they JUST ordered a bunch of input jacks from Roland for R-09 deck! Before I could inquire further the phone rang there and very busy owner Paul Plotnick had to move on promising a return call.
Hoping a follow-up call may give some insight on just what is going wrong with those jacks.
Thanks so much! I think we all would greatly appreciate knowing if this was just a bad batch and if I need to keep sharp eye on it the next 30 days! :D
As I wrote above no problem thus far with my 4 day old unit. It seems the early summer units had problems. :(
:D P
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Regarding units purchased in June-July, FWIW - I purchased an R-09 from minidisco last June. So far, so good using AT822 mic-in. It's a good tip to be gentle with the input jacks - thanks.
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The defect occurred in my unit, which had brief and gentle use. After looking at my Sony MD, and my cheap old cassette recorders, I see the major difference in design is the open space around the input jack on the Edirol, which lets the jack absorb all the torque, with nothing immediately around it for support. Engineering mistake, imo.
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The defect occurred in my unit, which had brief and gentle use. After looking at my Sony MD, and my cheap old cassette recorders, I see the major difference in design is the open space around the input jack on the Edirol, which lets the jack absorb all the torque, with nothing immediately around it for support. Engineering mistake, imo.
Did a teardown of the R-09 deck in order to install a DSM mic powering MOD and looked into the input jack problem at the same time. While I have used this deck for almost a month without jack problem, there is a potential problem with the SOLDERING OF THE JACKS TO THE PCB that if a little worse than on my unit will MAKE THE JACK'S SURFACE MOUNT SOLDERING BREAK.
This may be all that is the problem with these jacks as the jack is not supported by much else than the soldering to the board, and a close-fitting collar where the jack protrudes through the case to the outside.
Apparently, these jacks are placed onto the board that has some solder paste and then hot-air is applied to flow the solder paste to most the components that can take this kind of heat. The jacks either did not get enough paste and/or not enough heat was applied to fully melt the solder. Poor soldering and quality control. These jacks should have gotten additional hand soldering as visual inspection usually shows this type of poor connection as mechanically prone to break after a few uses as many have experienced, and as I could easily see when doing the inspection before applying the modification for mic powering.
I soldered these jack terminals to look like the one marked GOOD, AND EXPECT NO FURTHER PROBLEMS with careful use of right angle molded plugs as is needed with most minijacks on minidecks.
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[joins team broken line-in jack] :(
Left channel wasn't registering during a pre-record test. Checked the jack and it was slightly wobbly. Switched to mic in and turned the MMA6000 down a bit to compensate and had no problem with recording that night and the next day/night. Haven't listened closely over phones, but I didn't notice any detectable difference in noise playing back the resulting files.
Grrr. Now's when all the good music comes to town.
I can open it up and re-solder, but wondering if I should just try to get it covered under warranty. Concerned with turn around time though, anyone with the broken input jack persuse a warranty claim yet?
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[joins team broken line-in jack] :(
Left channel wasn't registering during a pre-record test. Checked the jack and it was slightly wobbly. Switched to mic in and turned the MMA6000 down a bit to compensate and had no problem with recording that night and the next day/night. Haven't listened closely over phones, but I didn't notice any detectable difference in noise playing back the resulting files.
Grrr. Now's when all the good music comes to town.
I can open it up and re-solder, but wondering if I should just try to get it covered under warranty. Concerned with turn around time though, anyone with the broken input jack persuse a warranty claim yet?
+T for your troubles.
I had sent mine into Roland while it was still under warranty. They got the unit on a Tuesday. By Thursday, I called to see what the diagnosis was. They said they hadn't even looked at the unit and that typical turnaround time was "2 weeks" for them to ship the item after they receive it.
It took a lot of arguing to get them to actually *take a look* at the unit in a somewhat timely manner; they said the tech assigned to my RA# was on vacation and wouldn't be back for a week. So, after much arguing, they got a new tech to take a look at it and they said they'd send me a replacement. And 3 business days later, said replacement was shipped. All in all, it took 2 weeks from the time I mailed my R-09 until I had the replacement in hand. If I hadn't called them up and argued with them, it would have been 3-4 weeks easily, since the tech they assigned to my "case" was on vacation.
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Thanks Hyperplane,
That's about what I figured.
Freelunch,
Neutrino mentions disassembly here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65175.msg906758#msg906758 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65175.msg906758#msg906758) (reply#261 about halfway down the page)
Guysonic may have good disassembly advice too.
Pondering my options and looking at my schedule..
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for those with troubles... could a hot pre-amp be the culprit? try plugging everything in while the stuff in front of the R09 is turned off.
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Thanks Hyperplane,
That's about what I figured.
Freelunch,
Neutrino mentions disassembly here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65175.msg906758#msg906758 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65175.msg906758#msg906758) (reply#261 about halfway down the page)
Guysonic may have good disassembly advice too.
Pondering my options and looking at my schedule..
Other than dropping a part, most critical is removing the back 'plate' to reveal the 3 screws, and maybe gentle 'unplugging treatment of top from bottom board.
By accidental discovery, the paper-thin backside 'pulls out at the bottom' with slightest tug. Found this out trying out first time removal of a Velcro attached preamp to be IMPOSSIBLE without 'pealing' the back up. The bottom tabs let go immediately with ALMOST NO PULLING FORCE. However, the 'top-edge' adhesive section underdeath' is more challenging for a knowing technique.
So suggest applying a small adhesive-backed Velcro 'hook-side' patch in the lower mid of the back plate and give a gentle tug with the 'loop' side to unhook the tabs. Pull the flexible back plate upwards a little, and maybe place a small popsicle stick underneath to keep tabs from reattaching.
The 1/2" wide adhesive strip under the top section does not let go easily, and needs special treatment so the extremely thin back plate doesn't crack.
Suggest using a small popsicle stick or similar implement to work the soft adhesive free with gentle 'twist-and-pry' motion in several glued places until the back cover is free.
You can leave the Velcro patch attached as it is very useful for attaching the deck securely to a surface, and accessories find a natural home attached to the backside.
However, I you want to use the Velcro for this purpose and NOT BREAK the back cover removing stuff, you WILL NEED TO TAPE the back cover 'seam' area. See this TIP IN DETAIL near the bottom of the R-09 review page at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
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See this TIP IN DETAIL near the bottom of the R-09 review page at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
Leonard,
Great additional information and clarifications on an already thurough and informative review.
Thanks for the info and great work.
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^^^ You've got my courage up. I guess it's my turn now.
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take digi-pics as you disassemble for easy reassmble. ;)
Now, there is a tip worth a +T
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Thanks all. I’ll dive in this weekend. I've concerts tonight and Friday, thankfully the mic input has held out well in the interim.
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I had this exact problem with the first R-09 I got from Sound Pros.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to test out my R-09 until after it had already been over 30 days (due to getting repeatedly bad 2GB SD cards from an ebay seller, and the fact that no SD card came with the original R-09, I had no reason to plug mics into it if I couldn't even test out the recorder at home). So, at my first outting with it, the very first time I plugged my battery box into the R-09, the Line Input jack broke completely. It was picking up a signal (or so it appeared), but it was obviously not very usable in that condition.
Again, since I was over the 30-day warranty thing from the dealer (it was technically like 36 days), I had to go through Roland, and it was a nightmare from start to finish. (Which has made me contemplate never getting Roland products again... it should not be such a hassle to get a product that's still under warranty to be repaired/replaced). They did, however, end up sending me a new unit after a ton of time spent on the phone arguing with them. I tried the input jacks on the replacement unit, and it seems to be much better.
FWIW, the original R-09 that I got had firmware version 1.02, and as I said, it did not even come with the crappy 64 MB SD card. However, the replacement R-09 had firmware version 1.03 and came with a crappy 64 MB SD card. The newer R-09 also had specific instructions (with pictures) warning the user to use "CAUTION" when opening the (shoddy designed) battery door.
Overall, I do like the R-09 but I have to admit that I am concerned that the next time I plug mics into it, the Input jack will break. This should not be the case... I mean, come on, you can get a crappy walkman at WalMart and its input jack can take normal usage with flying colors... yet the $399 recorder by Roland flunked out on the first time when plugging something into its jack.
The main problem is 3.5 mm jacks of really good quality are not easy to find I think everyone should switch to these check them out. These are also available for standard panel mount.
http://www.btx.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=CA-C4407LKA&Category=4348ad2f-1b43-47dc-83b3-5cee8464acbf
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Chris, those look purty.. But I'm guessing with the length that they will tend to exert just as much force on the r09 jack?
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Chris, those look purty.. But I'm guessing with the length that they will tend to exert just as much force on the r09 jack?
Yes but if you use the pannel mount on a steel plate inside the box and not a pcb mount they will outlast any 3.5 mm connector. But alas that would cost to much money these connectors are used by Sony and AKG in there wireless products because they stand up better then the mini xlr connectors or even Hirose connectors.
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If you are willing to accept some advice on how to better deal with the R-09 fragile inputs and outputs, I will gladly provide some guidelines.
From the three available high quality CF recorders in the market (Edirol-R09, M-Audio 24/96 and Zoom H4), the R-09 is the only one using prosumer inputs.
It's also the only one with un-balanced inputs, with no phantom power for professional mics.
OTOS it seems to be better in other areas, like sturdiness, takes large size CF cards, etc.
You can't do anything on the phantom power, and only Roland can change that on a future model (if any), but you can improve on the fragility of the mic and line inputs. Get yourself an Y cable, with a metal 1/8" stereo connector on one end and two XLR-3 females on the other, wired to take balanced mics or outputs.
Now this is the harder part of my advice: plug those Y-adaptors and never unplug them again. NEVER!!!
In such way you will preserve those fragile connectors.
You can do the same with the headphone output, but this is also the digital output, so that may be harder.
Let's hope this helps.
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plugging it in, and never removing it is a little too simplistic, and unrealistic.
What about when you want to transfer your recording to the computer.... Isn't the Y cable going to be exposed to lots of banging, and jostling, that it might not receive if unplugged?
I've stealthed a dozen shows with mine, at least. And, all with a straight neutrik 1/8" stereo connector, and not had any issues, at all.
Simplistic it may be. Unrealistic not really so.
Realistic is the fact that with so many plug-ins & plug-outs the 1/8" springs will wear out and start losing contact. That is a fact that has to do with how much will you be using your equipment.
It's mostly a question of routine, really.
And I am not the first one to propose such an alternative. Whole mixers are designed in Europe that let you strap a Minidisc onto an enclosure that works as an interface to better preamps and connectors.
In the '80s there was an US company that modified a Sony WD6C, which used cassette and had Dolby-C, and provided cables for inputs and outputs. Their advice was to velcro the cables to the leather case and never to unplug them. Whatever interconnection to the "external world" you did through those sturdier connectors.
What I am doing is suggesting a way to take better care of the fragilities of these powerful recorders. You can take it or leave it, of course.
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From my perspective, the R-09 input jacks seemed to have several problems that 'Murphy' made very visible to us users of the deck.
1. The two analog SURFACE MOUNTED input jacks were designed to have 2 alignment registration pins that projected through 2 drill holes in the PCB UNDER EACH JACK. These registration pins were supposed to keep the jack from moving sideways and stressing the solder pads. Furthermore, each jack was supposed to be GLUED DOWN to further keep UP_DOWN motion from again stressing the circuit solder pads.
2. As it happened, the two input jacks that were used DID NOT HAVE ANY ALIGNMENT PINS whatsoever, so NOTHING PROJECTED INTO the drilled PCB board holes to secure sideways motion, AND NO ADHESIVE was placed on these WRONG SELECTED jacks leaving the solder pads as the ONLY securing mechanism.
3. The Summer 2006 production run produced BAD SOLDERING on the jack-to-board pads that easily broke with little force, and the decks that DID NOT HAVE bad solder joints were still prone to rip off the circuit pads if the someone used straight or commonly found large right angle plugs that could easily be bumped or have the plug cord tugged to stress the jack to have even good soldered pads break free of the circuit board.
4. Many of us here found the bad solder joints and fixed these, and some of us applied adhesive to the sides of the jacks to help secure this jack to something more solid than the circuit traces.
5. It was also suggested in a few threads here for users NOT to use straight plugs AT ALL, or EVEN right angle plugs with large dimensions that easily stress the jacks by a bump or cord tug incident so a minimum of torque is applied in any case. This is also good advice for ANY MINIJACK regardless, but even more important with the R-09.
6. Edirol so far HAS NOT REPLACED THESE JACKS WITH PROPER ONES WITH ALIGHMENT PINS THAT FIT THE HOLES IN THE BOARD. However, the soldering in recent runs is good, AND THEY ARE NOW APPLYING A GOOD ADHERRING SILICONE ADHESIVE , but ONLY ON THE SIDES OF THE JACK, that while sticking well, is NOT rigid, and this still allows the jacks to move every so slightly if enough stress is applied, so there's still a possibility of the circuit pads being damaged, but much less chance now with the glue.
Users that want to glue down their jacks must understand that the circuit board has a protective coating that resists such treatment, and the plastic used in jacks is not friendly to most adhesives to stick well so choose an adhesive that is specially designed to work with difficult plastics so the glue actually holds. Cleaning with 91%+ pure Isopropyl alcohol is suggested as this enhances gluing to plastics. This is why Edirol decided on the silicone as it has good sticking properties with these materials, and doesn't easily flow INTO THE JACK, but I would prefer a more rigid epoxy made specially for holding onto plastics, but be careful with these as they can easily flow run INTO the jack and this could be a show stopper!
7. Users of minijack featured decks should be extra gentle plugging in and removing connectors, and careful with using correctly designed right angle plugs ONLY. I always treat the jacks on my own and customer's decks with CAIG LABS ProGold treatment (see my accessories page for description links) as this helps lubricate, enhance the electrical contact, and prolong the plated surfaces. The R-09 headphone jack has additional soldered pads for optical output circuitry, and is far less delicate with over twice the contact pads and surface area to the board.
8. My own and a scarce few other companies offer SAFE designed right-angle molded miniplugs that are very low profile with small flexible cord that extend the minijack connection ~10" off the deck so frequent unplugging does not happen on the deck's jack, and adapters that convert the minijack to work other mic connector types. These are suggested to prolong the life of your minideck's minijacks.
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Instead of leaving a Y-cable plugged into the deck all the time, how about leaving a right-angle 1/8" male-to-female adapter plug/cable in there all of the time...? I've got a hard molded rat-shack one that I've left plugged into my deck since purchasing it. So my 1/8" on the R-09 has only ever been plugged and unplugged a couple of times.
Seems like a realistic solution without being too bulky.
I think I'd like one of the better right-angle plug adapters though, like the one guysonic sells...
think I'll have to check out his webpage again.
/j
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Instead of leaving a Y-cable plugged into the deck all the time, how about leaving a right-angle 1/8" male-to-female adapter plug/cable in there all of the time...? I've got a hard molded rat-shack one that I've left plugged into my deck since purchasing it. So my 1/8" on the R-09 has only ever been plugged and unplugged a couple of times.
Seems like a realistic solution without being too bulky.
I think I'd like one of the better right-angle plug adapters though, like the one guysonic sells...
think I'll have to check out his webpage again.
No, if you want your connections to last you will have to find a solution that will demand one or two cables to dangle from your R9.
If you want this to be a bit smaller use one 1/4" stereo jack on the other end, which is a sturdier connector. That will also allow you just one cable, instead of two for the Y.
That concept was also valid for Sony smaller DAT recorders and for MDs, of course.
One thing I still don't understand is why more manufacturers of these more sophisticated "prosumer" products don't adopt the 1/8" threaded jack, which has been around for more than 15 years. Only Sony, and quite timidly, has used threaded 1/8" on some of their wireless mics and on the Sony FX1.
The main problem with the 1/8" connection is that the plug moves inside the jack and makes its death inevitable. A thread avoids that, locking the plug and not letting it move.
I wonder if it's possible to upgrade the standard R9 jack and put a threaded type there. The ball is with you now, Guysonic... :)
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as per RA stereo mini plugs, i'm a big fan of the neutrik ends. they are small, and light as opposed to the switchcraft ones which are much beefier.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-333
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as per RA stereo mini plugs, i'm a big fan of the neutrik ends. they are small, and light as opposed to the switchcraft ones which are much beefier.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-333
This is a very nicely made plug. It's taken years for Neutrik to start making connectors for 3.5mm. Unfortunately, the 1.327" body length is too much at almost twice the body-length of the 'safe' molded right-angle plugs I am suggesting. This Neutrik plug, while having lower 'vertical' height, places the same liability for excessive input jack torque stress as using the usual straight plugs.
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yea, i know.
its a nice piece, but its not nearly as small as some of the molded ones I have laying around on various devices. I should just hack one of them.
wish i knew were to get little molded ones.
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This is a very nicely made plug. It's taken years for Neutrik to start making connectors for 3.5mm. Unfortunately, the 1.327" body length is too much at almost twice the body-length of the 'safe' molded right-angle plugs I am suggesting. This Neutrik plug, while having lower 'vertical' height, places the same liability for excessive input jack torque stress as using the usual straight plugs.
Just by the picture I can't quite see how much longer the angled Neutrik connector is compared to yours, but you could offer a ready made cable using your molded connector and a 1/4" stereo jack at the other end for people to plug mics or lines. The rule of never unplugging these short cables should be followed though.
But I still think the best thing would be to replace the R9 connector, if feasible, with a threaded 3.5m stereo jack, like that used on the Sony FX1 camera. Unfortunately there's notmuch space to replace it with a serious connector, like a mini-XLR for instance.
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I've wondered whether leaving the plug in all the time would degrade the spring force of the socket contacts. Some of those springs are coil, some are leaf.
I have never seen a 1/4" or 1/8" jack which was not leaf springed, but I may have missed it. Leaving it on all the time would not degrade the spring, because when you insert the plug there's a point of it that exceeds the "maximum pressure" and then rests on a lesser pressure. The "contact position" does not degrade the pressure on the plug in the long term. At least on good quality jacks. Going through that "maximum pressure" point several times, by plugging and unplugging, causes the wobbling I talked about.
If I ever get worried about the 1/8 input, I'll just remove the original sockets from the board and solder in a 6" pigtail with the female end of my choice. That's one of the reasons I haven't applied any glue.
Removing the 1/8" socket is certainly the best way to do it. I did it. This comes from the time of my first walkmans, which starting misconnecting after some months. So I opened it and soldered a cable through the connector hole, using a 1/4" female jack. Audio improved a lot, particularly low-frequencies, which made me think that 1/8" jacks can be capacitive. But that is just a theory.
In any case, removing the 1/8" input would invalidate the warranty, which the adapter cable wouldn't.
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so your quarter inch jack, i assume is a stereo phono jack ?
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so your quarter inch jack, i assume is a stereo phono jack ?
As far as I know, that's the correct name. The phono jack is really the RCA jack.
Except for the XLR, the 1/4" connector is probably the most popular one in the pro market. And I think there are good reasons for it. Even studio interconnects are based on the jack spring principle. That's why I advocate it as a second choice, after XLR, for mic inputs.
But once again, the main question is to keep plug-unplug on the R9 (or any) 1/8" to a minimum.
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yea, quarter inch, phono, "headphone"...lots of names.
I know its an industry standard.
do you use the XLR locking style ? those are nice. I just started using the neutrik model and found it pretty sweet.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-134
I wonder if a microphone were to be removed, if a tiny XLR jack could be installed there.
or, as you did..., if one can run cable out of the unit somehow then you can terminate it w/anything.
XLR , mini, etc etc
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yea, quarter inch, phono, "headphone"...lots of names.
I know its an industry standard.
Some parts become industry standards because they fulfill many requirements, in a safe and repeatable way. There are lots of XLR connector brands and not all of them are too good. I try to stick to Neutrik and Switchcraft if I can afford it, for price or size reasons. Gold plated contacts are a good thing, because they tend to last longer. But beware of some fancy connectors that don't provide much for the money. Good cable is also essential.
do you use the XLR locking style ? those are nice.
If you mean the Neutrik locking jack cable connector, it's not really XLR, even if the outer metal part is similar.
I just started using the neutrik model and found it pretty sweet.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-134
It's very nice, probably a bit heavy. But it locks the plug and secures the cable on the back. That is very important.
It's rather large though, so a metal type, with gold plated contacts, may do the job too and be smaller. The good thing of most 1/4" jacks is that they usually have a good grip on the contact. In any case never let 1/4" or 1/8" connectors lying on the floor, which is something you can do with XLR connectors.
I wonder a speaker were to be removed, if a tiny XLR jack could be installed there.
XLR connectors were not designed for speakers interconnection, and you may blow some speakers by plugging or unplugging them. Same thing with jacks of any type. There's a specific Neutrik speaker connector that should be used.
or, as you did..., if one can run cable out of the unit somehow then you can terminate it w/anything.
XLR , mini, etc etc
The cabled connection is always the best, but it invalidates warranties. They should only be provided after warranty expires or if you are really after the best quality. You will have to find a way to fix the cable though, but that a good technician can do that.
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yea...I understand.
I said speaker (though I meant microphone :)
I was talking about gutting the housing for one side, or both, and re-wiring so that you could supply additional inputs. Thats what I was getting at.
would be a nice mod. That, and 9v plug in power.
of course, warranties would be invalidated. that goes w/o saying.
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I was talking about gutting the housing for one side, or both, and re-wiring so that you could supply additional inputs. Thats what I was getting at.
I don't quite get what you mean by additional inputs. You can get only two.
would be a nice mod. That, and 9v plug in power.
of course, warranties would be invalidated. that goes w/o saying.
Can you be a bit more clear on what 9v power you mean? To power the R9? Or to power microphones?
The greatest lack in the R9, as I see it, is that it doesn't have balanced inputs and no phantom power for pro mics. That can't be provided in the available space.
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Carlos...
no offense but we dont seem to be conversing well.
never mind.
read up on the r9 threads and then you'll be on the same page as me w/this talk of these projects.
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Carlos...
no offense but we dont seem to be conversing well.
never mind.
read up on the r9 threads and then you'll be on the same page as me w/this talk of these projects.
Nick,
I am surpirised with your comment, because I didn't feel we were not conversing well.
If you think we do not, why don't you guide me a bit to be "on the same page" as you?
My experience as film & video location recordist is quite vast, and I also designed a portable mic preamp to improve on the quality of portable recorders and camcorders. I also rent audio equipment for film & video here in Brazil, where I live, so I see this matter from several angles.
My suggestions are always for trying to help using simpler tools and extracting as much from them as they allow.
Carlos
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by on the same page, i mean so you'll know about prior discussions regarding these topics.
we've discussed how nice it would be if this unit supplied 9v of "plug in power" instead of 5v as it would drive a bunch of better microphones w/o the need for a seperate power supply.
phantom would be nice, but I dont need anything like that out of this personally. Just a decent A/D stage is all I really care about.
and by additional inputs, I meant better ones than current, like locking plugs and/or various mini jacks.
still mic/line input though.
Sorry for sounding like a dick (and I did as I read back). you're just coming to the party late.
:)
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by on the same page, i mean so you'll know about prior discussions regarding these topics.
we've discussed how nice it would be if this unit supplied 9v of "plug in power" instead of 5v as it would drive a bunch of better microphones w/o the need for a seperate power supply.
This is also about the R-09?
If so: did anyone check the circuit providing the 5V?
Maybe the 5V generator (DC/DC pump?) can be tuned or replaced for 9V?
One option could be to cut the trace or remove the part that couples the 5V into the mic signal wire and add one chip to generate the 9V.
This requires one small 9V DC/DC pump with few or zero extra parts
Please post.
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interesting.
i guess it depends on the room available
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This is also about the R-09?
If so: did anyone check the circuit providing the 5V?
Maybe the 5V generator (DC/DC pump?) can be tuned or replaced for 9V?
One option could be to cut the trace or remove the part that couples the 5V into the mic signal wire and add one chip to generate the 9V.
This requires one small 9V DC/DC pump with few or zero extra parts
As I foresee it, available space might be the main problem. A DC/DC pump will have to be isolated, so as not to induce RFI in the sensitive high-gain stages. I wonder why you think it may have few or no extra parts. A good inductor will have to be part of that circuit too, which is not small either.
Except for adding a plug-in box at the input end of the R-09, holding a 9v battery and DC-DC pump, I can't imagine much more. Sorry.
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thats pretty much the way we do things now...indirectly.
but wouldn't it be nice if it had 9v and could power DPAs....which is the "dream" of a few here.
Personally, i'm cool w/the r9. I think its a kick ass deck and sound damn'd good.
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I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power. You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.
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I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power. You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.
If you know where to look, what to change, maybe we can team up:
I am willing to buy an extra R09, have it modded so we can do some tests.
What power does a DPA need? (xx mA?)
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I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power. You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.
Is there some way to get a copy of the R-09 circuit? It would help a lot in order to have some ideas on what to improve.
Unfortunately, due to the R-09 size, it's quite likely that the pcb is multilayer and certainly SMD. That makes mods a bit difficult.
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This is a very nicely made plug. It's taken years for Neutrik to start making connectors for 3.5mm. Unfortunately, the 1.327" body length is too much at almost twice the body-length of the 'safe' molded right-angle plugs I am suggesting. This Neutrik plug, while having lower 'vertical' height, places the same liability for excessive input jack torque stress as using the usual straight plugs.
Just by the picture I can't quite see how much longer the angled Neutrik connector is compared to yours, but you could offer a ready made cable using your molded connector and a 1/4" stereo jack at the other end for people to plug mics or lines. The rule of never unplugging these short cables should be followed though.
But I still think the best thing would be to replace the R9 connector, if feasible, with a threaded 3.5m stereo jack, like that used on the Sony FX1 camera. Unfortunately there's notmuch space to replace it with a serious connector, like a mini-XLR for instance.
I do supply a short (10 inch length) 'minijack extension cable' that relieves the deck's jack of wear and stress damage liability. And most never unplug the extension from the deck as you suggest.
Internal modifications done to these tiny devices is usually NOT A GOOD IDEA as proposed. Increased liability for damage is MORE likely than using a more practical externally applied solution to connector shortcomings
by on the same page, i mean so you'll know about prior discussions regarding these topics.
we've discussed how nice it would be if this unit supplied 9v of "plug in power" instead of 5v as it would drive a bunch of better microphones w/o the need for a seperate power supply.
This is also about the R-09?
If so: did anyone check the circuit providing the 5V?
Maybe the 5V generator (DC/DC pump?) can be tuned or replaced for 9V?
One option could be to cut the trace or remove the part that couples the 5V into the mic signal wire and add one chip to generate the 9V.
This requires one small 9V DC/DC pump with few or zero extra parts
Please post.
I again think this approach is not practical or the least trivial. The internal regulated power inside the deck is 3.3 volts (NOT 5 volts).
And being a systems design engineer I know from experience that attaching anything to the internal supply rails needs be done with utmost consideration as liability to induce all kinds of noise mayhem, and device failure is the most likely outcome if missing a smallest detail.
Suggest an externally attached mic power module as the most reasonable and practical solution.
However, if taking things apart and trying out stuff regardless of likely outcome makes you happy, then consider the suggestion of doing it for yourself first, and use for awhile before digging into other's as some owners may not be so accepting of NOT having a reliable fully functioning hacked deck.
If determined to do the hack, then consider the DPA 4060 series work fine with 5 volt rails and using a simple inductor-less capacitor switching voltage doubling circuit has minimum parts count and easily increases the 3.3 volts to 6.6 volts that'll work fine for powering the DPA capsules.
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Guy,
I am glad people using your cable follow my suggestions.
The only upgrade I would insist on is finding a way to upgrade the existing ones to lockable connectors. The 1/8" threaded jack may be available somewhere and is probably small, as Sony is using it on some wireless mics and on the Sony FX1.
Except for that, the only better thing would be to directly solder a permanent cable going outside, which would invalidade the warranty.
Your suggestion to add an external box, both for mic power or a better quality input (balanced or not), would still be the best way to improve on the R-09 virtues, which are a lot.
I did design and built several units of a mic preamp in the past:
http://www.preciseaudio.com/brochure.html
So I am a bit familiar with designs and mods, but most of all with the field recordings practical needs.
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I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power. You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.
Is there some way to get a copy of the R-09 circuit? It would help a lot in order to have some ideas on what to improve.
Unfortunately, due to the R-09 size, it's quite likely that the pcb is multilayer and certainly SMD. That makes mods a bit difficult.
Maybe we can just look at some highres photo's of the circuitboards inside the R09 to see if we can recognise some DC regulators.
If the 5V generated is just for the mic powering (and no IC on the board uses that voltage...) it can be relatively easily tweaked if the chip allows for higher voltage?
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Maybe we can just look at some highres photo's of the circuitboards inside the R09 to see if we can recognise some DC regulators.
Can you take some? I don't have a camera with anywhere near that macro capability.
I'm wondering why you guys are considering pump up circuits and regulators given the complexity and noise problems that might result. Why not just use a 6v battery?
It's just a possibility.
I don't have DPA's yet.
If the 5V situation is as I described we could try to increase thevoltage without harm to other parts (chips).
If there's too much noise then the modded R09 is not really usable.
Currently I have an external batterybox but I will have at least looked into the possibility to do away with the box...
And no, I do not have a photo camera.
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Maybe we can just look at some highres photo's of the circuitboards inside the R09 to see if we can recognise some DC regulators.
Can you take some? I don't have a camera with anywhere near that macro capability.
I'm wondering why you guys are considering pump up circuits and regulators given the complexity and noise problems that might result. Why not just use a 6v battery?
It's just a possibility.
I don't have DPA's yet.
If the 5V situation is as I described we could try to increase thevoltage without harm to other parts (chips).
If there's too much noise then the modded R09 is not really usable.
Currently I have an external batterybox but I will have at least looked into the possibility to do away with the box...
And no, I do not have a photo camera.
I do have the circuit schematic of the R-09 and there is NO 5 volts supplied to anything inside the deck, it is 3.3 volts ONLY and a 1.8 volt bias supply. In other words, there is NO 5 volt supply inside the R-09. Power for mic volts is ~2.5-3 volts ONLY. Whomever is giving out this 5 volts information doesn't know what they're talking about. Raising the voltage of circuitry designed for 3.3 volts usually results in breaking stuff and would be an error in judgement IMO.
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In other words, there is NO 5 volt supply inside the R-09. Power for mic volts is ~2.5-3 volts ONLY. Whomever is giving out this 5 volts information doesn't know what they're talking about. Raising the voltage of circuitry designed for 3.3 volts usually results in breaking stuff and would be an error in judgement IMO.
That's what I meant. There is only one rail for 2.5-3.x volts which powers the chips as well as the mics. So tweaking the DC/DC pump is a nono.
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Moke,
Can you post some pictures?
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Reducing the input jack collar clearance to zero does help keep that section from moving, and this would seem to secure this interface portion from motion under sideways applied stress from large plugs and thick cords.
However, this will NOT keep torque from large plugs from acting to 'swivel' the back-body of the jack. Securing just the chassis clearance interface acts to secure a fulcrum only, and will not reduce 'fulcrum-like' acting stresses that tend to pull pads off the board. Combination of moke's interface shrink application AND gluing down the jack's body to the board seems only way to best secure these surface-only mounted jacks from moving from large plug induced stress.
Best solution is when or if Edirol finds the correct jacks to fit the drilled mounting holes in the board. This would allow us to REPLACE these jacks with ones the board was designed to accept and making gluing the jack's body to the board most secure and robust with NO need to secure the chassis clearance interface as Moke suggests.
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For anyone interested, I was curious about this below cable and searched the Sonic site and found a picture of it , with price. See attached
Thanks Guy!
I do supply a short (10 inch length) 'minijack extension cable' that relieves the deck's jack of wear and stress damage liability. And most never unplug the extension from the deck as you suggest.
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For anyone interested, I was curious about this below cable and searched the Sonic site and found a picture of it , with price. See attached
Thanks Guy!
I do supply a short (10 inch length) 'minijack extension cable' that relieves the deck's jack of wear and stress damage liability. And most never unplug the extension from the deck as you suggest.
I bought one of these from Len (Guy) - works great so far.
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you could build one for like $3
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For $25, what does it really save you? You still have a 1/8" connector going into an 1/8" connector, no?
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For $25, what does it really save you? You still have a 1/8" connector going into an 1/8" connector, no?
Well, Guy says "relieves the deck's jack of wear and stress damage liability". Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but no problesm with mine so far.
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About 4000 of these molded miniplugs have been made in same way for ~21 years fitted onto DSM mics, preamp, mic adapters, and everything else made here requiring minijack connection.
Not one deck jack reported damaged or worn out in all this time of using this design.
Also, no report of the molded cord minijack used on this extension has worn out or been broken regardless of what design of plug is used with it.
This type of reliability is purposely DESIGNED into all my products, and the reasons for this reliability is NOT obvious to most. The fact that Sonic Studios gear rarely fails with normally expected rough use is greatly appreciated by the customers who rely on this stuff to keep working without breaking, or breaking their attached equipment.
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Maybe I am missing the point.
How is your design going to decrease the problems that Roland designed into the R09? How would it benefit me?
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Maybe I am missing the point.
How is your design going to decrease the problems that Roland designed into the R09? How would it benefit me?
All minijacks are more or less delicate. Because of errors in judgement of jack component selection and poor soldering QC, the R-09 was and still is much more delicate in this regard. Using plugs that produce minimum stresses on these jacks greatly decreases chances of problems with wear-out or complete failure.
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Using plugs that produce minimum stresses on these jacks greatly decreases chances of problems with wear-out or complete failure.
Also using screw-in 1/8" plugs, like Comtek does on their transmitter systems and Sony on his wireless mics and FX1 camera.
A good trick would be to find a way to replace the R-09 jack for a screw-in type, which has a higher collar.
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I think the general idea with this $25 cable (or anything else you would use) is to plug it in once, and leave it there. This way your devices get plugged into the extension cable (umpteen gazillion times) and not into the jack itself.
Now a "screw in 1/8 plug" I've never seen, or heard of, before. Got any pics of said jack you could post?
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Now a "screw in 1/8 plug" I've never seen, or heard of, before. Got any pics of said jack you could post?
The only place I have seen this type of plug is the output jack on my DPA MMA6000 preamp. It has about 1/8" of male threads sticking out past flush, that the mating plug threads onto. Makes for a nice secure connection.
Problem is, other than the cable that I bought from DPA, I have not found this type of plug anywhere.
If these ends and sockets where readily available, I think I would mod my R-09 with one in a heartbeat.
I have no camera as of now, so I can not post any pictures, maybe someone else with a mma-6000 can.
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I think the general idea with this $25 cable (or anything else you would use) is to plug it in once, and leave it there. This way your devices get plugged into the extension cable (umpteen gazillion times) and not into the jack itself.
Yes, that is what you should do with all 1/8" jack connections.
Now a "screw in 1/8 plug" I've never seen, or heard of, before. Got any pics of said jack you could post?
This is the closest I can get for a picture of the 1/8" threaded plug.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=287328&is=REG&addedTroughType=search
Once I had a supplier for the mating jack, but I can't find the URL now.
The cable above is used on a Sennheiser wireless mic. You could get a similar cable for stereo unbalanced jacks, but you will need an Y adapter with two XLR3 on each end, to plug on two mics.
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Well I am doing a little research looking for these threaded mini jacks. For the socket side I found these
http://www.cui.com/srchresults.asp?catky=619701&subcatky=749477&subcatky2=559017
I think that the male threads on these jacks are intended for panel mounting with a nut, but if the thread is the same diameter and pitch as the ones found on the plug, I don't see why you couldn't let the extend a little and thread the plug onto it.
Hmmm, now to find a mini plug that has the female threads.....
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been saying for years that we need a reliable screw-on mini plug. i wouldn't be surprised if mixing and matching male and female connectors from different manufacturers, however, would open the door to a lot of problems. it would be better if the two were manufactured and sold together. anyone found a plug/jack like this?
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Ok, here is what i found out.
Panel mount 3.5mm sockets have a 6 x .5 mm male thread. They can be used with a locking plug such as
http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=30%2D296%2DBK&cat=CABLESCONN&subcat=AUDIOADAPT&prodClass=35AD&mfg=&search=0&off=
At least 1 1/2 mm of the threads on the socket should be extruding to make a complete connection.
I also found this female cable end that can be threaded to the above connector to make an extension cord or a pigtail hardwired to a device.
http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=30%2D297&cat=CABLESCONN&subcat=AUDIOADAPT&prodClass=35AD&mfg=&search=0&off=
Both of these plug ends linked here are gold plated according to the Calrad site.
If I can find a panel mount connector that can be easily fit into my r-09, I think I am going to go this rout and make up new cables with the locking ends. It would be worth it to me just for the better connections.
;D ;D ;D
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Been reading this with interest.....
Why not remove the connector altogether? Make up a short pigtail with two female 1/8" jacks or a single stereo jack, solder it to the board and route the cable(s) out the existing hole? It would be even lower profile than a right angle plug since the cables and attached connectors could be folded back against the recorder body. And it would totally eliminate all stress on the PCB.
Paul
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Now a "screw in 1/8 plug" I've never seen, or heard of, before. Got any pics of said jack you could post?
The only place I have seen this type of plug is the output jack on my DPA MMA6000 preamp. It has about 1/8" of male threads sticking out past flush, that the mating plug threads onto. Makes for a nice secure connection.
Problem is, other than the cable that I bought from DPA, I have not found this type of plug anywhere.
If these ends and sockets where readily available, I think I would mod my R-09 with one in a heartbeat.
I have no camera as of now, so I can not post any pictures, maybe someone else with a mma-6000 can.
When I first got the MMA6000, DPA sent me a cable with the screw-on at BOTH ends. Since the shaft is shorter below the threaded part, this meant a really bad connection to my recorder! They replaced it with wirh a cable with one screw-in end and one normal 1/8", but I found that if you run the preamp in a pocket with the gain knobs on top you are stressing the wire on the screw-in on the bottom, I am more comfortable using a right-angle 1/8" cable and looping it up over the top.
Jeff
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Panel mount 3.5mm sockets have a 6 x .5 mm male thread. They can be used with a locking plug such as
Yes, I also wonder if the threaded jack will lock and go straight down into a standard threaded 1/8" jacks, or if the collar needs to be higher.
Just asked Calrad if they make a mating pcb jack for the locking plug.
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Why not remove the connector altogether? Make up a short pigtail with two female 1/8" jacks or a single stereo jack, solder it to the board and route the cable(s) out the existing hole? It would be even lower profile than a right angle plug since the cables and attached connectors could be folded back against the recorder body. And it would totally eliminate all stress on the PCB.
There are two questions we are discussing, related of course, but should be separated in order to deal with them:
1) Contact force and/or contact surface
2) Cable stress
The better connectors deal with these problems separately. But space limitations in many portable equipment brought also a curse: small connectors. Supply connectors, input/output connectors (1/8" types), interface connectors (USB, 1394). None of them locking types.
It's time somebody did something over that. The locking 1/8" might be a good starting point. Sony is using them on the FX1 camera and on their wireless; Sennheiser is using them on their wireless; Comtek is using them on their wireless. There might be others that I don't know about. But I think it's time high quality portable recorders implemented it too, and perhaps manufacturers may start thinking about it. Succesful upgradings of these connectors may help there.
Upgrading the original connectors, if we can do it, will improve matters. Even if things will not be totally solved, because the jack still has to be well secured to the recorder's body, we should also deal with the other question. Which is cable stress.
So as I see it, we should also implement several things, both on input and output connections. All of them. The R-09 has no locking connectors, but we can secure the cable a bit on the main body.
Like gluing a velcro piece on the unit's back and putting mating velcro strips on the unit's cables: mics, headphones, supply, USB. After plugging the connectors in we do a loop on the cable and secure it by the velcro strips on the main body.
That might provide a longer and better life for our tools.
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Obviously there are far better connectors than we are finding on mini-recorders being sold for low cost these days.
Obviously the errors made with R-09 have been mostly corrected by Edirol/Roland with fixes to now be not much worse than normally experienced with mini-jack type inputs.
The point I see being missed here is there are easy, practical ways of minimizing the stresses placed on these jacks so they work for the life of the product without resorting to cumbersome redesign efforts to make these decks into something they are not.
Sure, some of you are capable of doing extensive modifications to the deck, and then to all the equipment you connect up using specialized connectors, but this is not a solution for many of us concerned with reliable recording using miniaturized equipment.
As an equipment designer, the best tact is produce low stress interfaces using the same type of connectors as supplied with these recorders, and not demand modification be done on the decks themselves. This has worked well in the past, and will continue to provide adequate solution for needed reliability for connecting gear to mini-decks with 3.5 mm jacks.
Velcro attached cord securing is a +7 year old tip on my site suggested for minidisc decks using small molded right-angle plugs with flexible cord, and will work with the R-09 with if securing the back cover seams with tape as illustrated in the review atwww.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
Using straight plugs still leaves open good chance of jack-damaging stress from an accidental bump on the plug's long length dimension.
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Obviously there are far better connectors than we are finding on mini-recorders being sold for low cost these days.
Obviously the errors made with R-09 have been mostly corrected by Edirol/Roland with fixes to now be not much worse than normally experienced with mini-jack type inputs.
The point I see being missed here is there are easy, practical ways of minimizing the stresses placed on these jacks so they work for the life of the product without resorting to cumbersome redesign efforts to make these decks into something they are not.
Short of gluing the connector to the recorder or eliminating it all together by soldering a cable directly to the pcb, the fact is that the 1/8" jack was not designed for the tasks they are putting to.
What made my living for the last 16 years was selecting, renting and sometime modifying audio equipment to be used on location in film & video. That was also based on my previous 15 years experience as a film location recordist. So I think I gathered some practical knowledge on what works, does not work at all or can be improved.
My first contact with the 1/8" jack in semi-pro equipment was on the Sony Wm6C semi-pro cassette recorder, and then in the D7/D8 DAT portables. By then I knew the only way to walk around the "weak link" problem was replacing it (a difficult option) or using short cable adapters. If locking 1/8" connectors had been widely available back then, in 1990, I would have certainly replaced them.
The matter on what these units are or not is a debatable question. DV video was not meant to become what it became, now followed by HDV. If the capabilities allow it, why not stretch as much as you can what you can do?
Sure, some of you are capable of doing extensive modifications to the deck, and then to all the equipment you connect up using specialized connectors, but this is not a solution for many of us concerned with reliable recording using miniaturized equipment.
The other end is easier to solve, or is already solved, mostly using XLRs. We can concentrate on solving the decks problems.
As an equipment designer, the best tact is produce low stress interfaces using the same type of connectors as supplied with these recorders, and not demand modification be done on the decks themselves. This has worked well in the past, and will continue to provide adequate solution for needed reliability for connecting gear to mini-decks with 3.5 mm jacks.
When I designed my preamp, some years ago, to be used with DV cameras, portable DATs and MD recorders, one of the problems I wanted to solve was the 1/8" jacks the used. The linking cable was to remain permanently connected, very much like what the Beachtek did.
Velcro attached cord securing is a +7 year old tip on my site suggested for minidisc decks using small molded right-angle plugs with flexible cord, and will work with the R-09 with if securing the back cover seams with tape as illustrated in the review atwww.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
Some ideas seem to work in different contexts. In 1987, Super-8 modified Sony WM6C recorders provided velcro strips on their commercial decks, both for mic and headphone cable adaptors (all 1/8" on the original Sony recorder), so you could secure the cables to the shoulder belt.
Using straight plugs still leaves open good chance of jack-damaging stress from an accidental bump on the plug's long length dimension.
L-shaped connectors are second best (and a good idea) to locking 1/8" types.
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I took my unit to a Roland approved repair place close to where I work to finally have the input jack fixed. After reading all the posts in this thread I told the repair guy it was most likely the solder, and after going to the place again yesterday, he showed me that it indeed was.
Whether or not this jack is either re-soldered and/or exopyed in place, does it need to have a solid connection to the board in order for both the right & left levels to be even? The repair guy didn't have anything to try & test levels, and my stealth mics didn't do anything to help with that test. And he really didn't get it set solidly by re-soldering it either.
And i'm thinking that how it was damaged, Roland may not take it back anyway.
Suggestions?
shane
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Whether or not this jack is either re-soldered and/or exopyed in place, does it need to have a solid connection to the board in order for both the right & left levels to be even? The repair guy didn't have anything to try & test levels, and my stealth mics didn't do anything to help with that test. And he really didn't get it set solidly by re-soldering it either.
And i'm thinking that how it was damaged, Roland may not take it back anyway.
The connector only has two options: soldered and unsoldered. If it's unsoldered it will be mute or noisy in most situations.
If it's soldered there shouldn't be any level difference.
A drop of any glue or epoxy should be great to fix the jack to the board. Certainly recommended.
My concern with 1/8" are the springs inside the jack, which IMO lose contact after repeated plug/unplug.
If that ever happens, replace the 1/8" jacks with short cables and 1/4" jacks. They have better spring force.
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what would happen if instead of beefing up the jack, you removed it and soldered some nice wire to it. secured it w/a gromet or something and then had a 1' lead w/a female end of choice?
possible ?
i'm going to take mine apart and look (is that smoke I smell?)
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Wait a minute. If you are not having any problem with the R-09, or if it can be solved by a better connector (angled?), I don't think anyone should invalidate their warranty by removing anything.
What I say is if anyone is noticing any problems now on the input, they might be related (or not) to the input jack. So that should be the first place to look.
Replacing the jack by a different type or cable should be the ultimate mod, only to be taken on if everything else fails. Once again: until the warranty expires. Then you could take more radical decisions.
Until then, my less compromising proposal would be: get a cable adapter, using a tight fitting 1/8" in one end and a locking connector of some kind at the other. First choice should be XLR, second mini-XLR, third 1/4" jack (it's not locking, but its springs grip as if it did). Plug that cable and leave it there.
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But Carlos....radical decisions w/gear are what i'm all about!
:)
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But Carlos....radical decisions w/gear are what i'm all about!
:)
That's the spirit!... >:D
Then I think we should try to find out about available thread-compatible 1/8" pcb jacks, because there are ready-made threading plugs around.
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Seems like we're going in circles here!
Just think all the going back and forth in this and other threads would NOT be so necessary if Edirol/Roland had mounted, soldered, and secured the correct input jacks in the first place. Then no better or worse than those minijacks found in the other decks.
Now this otherwise great little deck is a pain for customers and gotta believe for Roland.
Wondering if new R-09 production runs having the good soldering and glued down jacks (like I've seen in recent runs) is now 'normal semi-reliable' for 3.5mm type?
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what would be the best course of action, if one was to want to remove a mic, and replace that with a more substantial connector?
Those mics simply unplug from the board. Just grab the mic plug with a pair of tweezers and pull and rock gently.
I think there are two basic fixes.. Installing a new socket in the mic area or soldering wires to the pcb and running a short shielded cable to an external socket. I don't suppose it would actually be mandatory to desolder the original input from the board. You could just piggy back the wires.
One gotcha... The r09 switches automatically between the line and mic sockets. I believe that is done via the switch that is built into each socket but I didn't look very close. Any retrofit would need to take that into account. If the original socket is retained, I suppose you could stick a toothpick in it to activate the switch. Otherwise, I think you might have to fudge something.
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Seems like we're going in circles here!
Just think all the going back and forth in this and other threads would NOT be so necessary if Edirol/Roland had mounted, soldered, and secured the correct input jacks in the first place. Then no better or worse than those minijacks found in the other decks.
Now this otherwise great little deck is a pain for customers and gotta believe for Roland.
Wondering if new R-09 production runs having the good soldering and glued down jacks (like I've seen in recent runs) is now 'normal semi-reliable' for 3.5mm type?
Let me be the first to answer my own query!
Have R-09 later production unit with the Roland 'jack fix' treatment THAT BROKE the Left Channel LINE input PCB pad off the board!
I do recall being excessively rough one time with lead-forming the molded right-angle plug cord into a sharp horse-shoe bend and jamming the deck into its Daylight View Case last time I used it. Apparently this was enough generated torque to rip the left channel pad off. And this is the first time rough handling a right angle plug has 'broken' a minijack; always a first time for everything I'd guess!
Apparently Roland's choice of RTV silicone adhesive is not holding securely enough with adhesion to the jack's plastic, and being so thin and flexible a material to 'give' too much with torque. In other words, the glue doesn't grip consistently well enough to prevent instances of pad lifting like I just experienced.
The fix took the better part of an hour to carefully scrape and peal ALL traces of the RTV from the jack and board using the sharpest curved tweezers you'll likely to see, clean several times with Q-tip applied alcohol, clean blown air, and 'plastic welder' type epoxy generously applied to the sides of both input jacks.
While it is now very doubtful these jacks will ever be serviceable (like desoldering and replacement) because this epoxy IS NOT BE REMOVABLE, BUT jacks are now solidly attached with NO CHANCE OF COMING OFF THE BOARD, EVER AGAIN!
If applying a strong plastic adhesive epoxy is chosen as most practical fix, then using an RTV solvent might make removing this 'glue' less tedious, but damage or contamination of the jack contacts and other board components more likely than slow mechanical removal method like I used.
While I considered working the jacks completely off and soldering cables to external jacks like proposed, problem of absolutely securing the cables without more glue to the board, and the electrical 'plug is inserted' signal working off the ground-switch inside the jack prevents this from being an easy practical solution.
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Well, I'm back after a few months away from the forum. I threatened to open my R-9 in October to fix the broken line in jack but never got around to it & i've used the mic in jack since then, no worries. I opened it up last night to take a look, hoping to solder & maybe hot glue/zip-tie/epoxy the jack securely and.. It appears the jack's left signal pad has lifted from the board :'(
The solder joint doesn't look broken, the pad seems lifted from the circuit board. I didn't want to wiggle things too much so it's difficult to really tell. I'll take a better look tonight with a magnifyer. That's small work in there.
Any ideas on fixing that?! It appears very localized around the pad itself, not much trace has lifted (but might be under the jack).
If I have to send it back to Roland I'll miss some regularly ocurring opportunities to record. Maybe I'll need to buy a spare R9?!
Glad I checked in before I soldering in a pig-tail. I didn't think about the 'mic/line jack switching' issue.
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The solder joint doesn't look broken, the pad seems lifted from the circuit board. I didn't want to wiggle things too much so it's difficult to really tell. I'll take a better look tonight with a magnifyer. That's small work in there.
Any ideas on fixing that?! It appears very localized around the pad itself, not much trace has lifted (but might be under the jack).
How to fix it will depend on how good you are with a solder pen. If you have no experience don't try it. Send it to Roland.
If you do have some experience with small soldering, you can use a short copper wire to solder the jack to the trace. But before that you should glue the jack somehow so it doesn't move again.
After that it's relatively easy: clean the jack's terminal and add new solder; scrape lightly and carefully the trace area you are going to solder to, also melting (quickly) a small solder dot.
Then use a flexible copper wire, soldering first to the jack and then to the trace. That's why I say you should have experience: because soldering has to be precise and quick.
Good luck!
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Thanks Carlos,
I've done it for big components on full-grown boards no problem, but that super tiny stuff scares me. Maybe I'll put everything back together, hope the mic jack doesn't give way and wait for some down-time to send it to Roland. Hrmph.
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I've done it for big components on full-grown boards no problem, but that super tiny stuff scares me. Maybe I'll put everything back together, hope the mic jack doesn't give way and wait for some down-time to send it to Roland.
If you've soldered before, then you have the basics, which is handling solder and a solder pen.
For small stuff you need a small pen, like 35W and thin solder. A tweezer to hold the copper wire and not burn your fingers. And there you go. You just have to be accurate and quick on the trace, so it won't unglue from the pcb.
But on the other side this operation will invalidate your warranty, so it may be better to send it to Roland.
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I've done it for big components on full-grown boards no problem, but that super tiny stuff scares me. Maybe I'll put everything back together, hope the mic jack doesn't give way and wait for some down-time to send it to Roland.
If you've soldered before, then you have the basics, which is handling solder and a solder pen.
For small stuff you need a small pen, like 35W and thin solder. A tweezer to hold the copper wire and not burn your fingers. And there you go. You just have to be accurate and quick on the trace, so it won't unglue from the pcb.
But on the other side this operation will invalidate your warranty, so it may be better to send it to Roland.
I'd also suggest sending it back for Roland to repair. Even with the micro soldering irons/ .015"dia eutectic solder, 36 GA. silver plated jumper wire, and surgeon's stereoscopic magnifier glasses used for microphone manufacture at my disposal, the Left channel pad goes to a very tiny VIA that even the 36 GA wire would not fit, and the solder mask coat on the VIA and broken pad section needs be carefully scraped away so new solder can stick. In other words, even with the proper tools and experience, I found this repair very challenging and do not recommend it for others to try unless willing to purchase another R-09 or pay nearly same amount for out of warranty repair.
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Took a better look last night under good light & magnification. Definitely lifted the solder pad from the board. The trace beneath the pad over to that tiny VIA hole is lifted, twisted & torn. You're not kidding Guy, that VIA and the surface trace surrounding it is incredibly small. I had to keep looking under magnification, then pearing back at the board. It's almost invisible to the naked eye. I don't have the tools, or the skills to do that kind of exacting work.
I noticed a slight yellowish ring or halo on the surface of the board around each solder pad of both two input jacks. Looked like it could be either a heat artifact from soldering or possibly stress from jack movement. I'm concerned that other jack connections may be getting ready to fail. I'm hoping that if I send it to Roland they may replace the whole board.
Called Roland to get an RMA. The guy said it's about a 2 week turn around. I'm still within the 1 year parts warranty so I'll have to pay labor. I was probably within the 90 day, labor covered period when it broke and should have called for an RMA then, but I couldn't give up the recorder for 2-3 weeks at that point. It will be difficult finding the time to do it now too! Perhaps time to buy a second one as a back up to cover the down time, though I was hoping to hold out a year or so to see what else becomes available. Checking the calendar..
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I wonder what it wold take for Roland to issue a recall? This seems unacceptable to me.
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I wonder what it wold take for Roland to issue a recall? This seems unacceptable to me.
Official recall takes them wanting to do the right thing as most would agree appropriate at this point.
However, explaining the cost of this type of PR boosting to the stockholder's satisfaction is unlikely without the usual official legal motions expressing R-09 customer's experiences with the 'as-sold' shortcomings.
I agree to the notion that honoring the warranty is not enough under the circumstances, as Roland loaded the WRONG input jack onto the board, and all these need to replaced with ones with the two plastic 'rivet' posts on the bottom of each jack allowing locking the jack securely to the board.
Roland had their chance with getting the proper jacks, and finding a solution with the now infamous 'glue fix. Roland chose using 'repairable' non-permanent glue on the wrong designed jacks, founding this glue to NOT hold securely, but might be a good choice if only serving to delay the inevitable circuit pad from being eventually torn off the board. More likely now to happen some time after the warranty expires instead of during as most are finding.
In other words, maybe now Roland stands to make money by replacing jacks down the road with most likely 'out-of-warranty' service! While I believe originally the jacks were a mistake and should have been replaced with proper design, if Roland continues on this course, it looks now more like premeditated 'Planned Obsolescence' in a classic sense.
Any legal guys out there wanting to take on Roland for the us Tapers???
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Last fall I decribed on this board my problems with the input jack, which came loose after an hour or so of gentle use. (The unit was purchased in June). By the time I sent the unit back to the dealer it was beyond the replacement time. The dealer told me that Roland was completely unhelpful, after a month Roland told the dealer they hadn't got to my unit yet, they were waiting for PARTS. ie waiting for solder I guess. The dealer sent me a new unit on his own dime, for PR I guess. I haven't even taken it out of the box because I know I have to make a platform for it and secure the cables. The dealer said that Roland was a huge company and these Edirols are peanuts to them. Too bad, I will never buy another Roland product if I can avoid it.
Thanks for all the suggestions on how to work around the problem, but it shouldn't be necessary on such a broad scale. Bah humbug!!
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I got my R9 last summer and did about 30 shows with it no problem. Well the fun soon ended as my line in shit the bed also. I brought the deck back to the dealer as i purchased there 2 year warranty and I was told they have there own tech repair shop. So i got a online status report of the repairs progress and last week they said awaiting parts? So i rechecked the status two days later and it said unit sent to Roland. oy vey. I never buy a Roland product ever again
A update to my earlier post,The dealer gave me a loaner untill my deck gets back from Roland, guess what? Same freaking problem so i returned it and they offered to have another loaner shipped from another store and i told them no thanks,ill await my deck from Roland.
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I really want to upgrade to an R-09... but man are you guys scaring me.
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I really want to upgrade to an R-09... but man are you guys scaring me.
Here's the question......"How much does $400 mean to you?"
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Hi all - Welcome a new member of the Edirol R-09 pooched line-in jack club. Not sure what I will do; dive in and attempt soldering under a microscope, or return the 1 year + old deck for out-of-warranty repair. Whichever, just wanted to warm your hearts with the fact there are more of us out here. I was gentle... it was a straight plug....just a little shifting in the gear bag was all it took to torque the jack. Edirol does so much right with the R-09, a shame they got this so wrong.
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I just got my edirol r-09 back from doug oade. I had modification done to the line input. Basically an updgrade. The line input normally needs a -10dB signal to go to 0 db on the meters. Now it only takes a -20dB signal to get to 0db so that you should be able to record via the line input and not have to use the mic inputs.
I would imagine that the warranty is over once it has been injected with some steroids. I can only cross my fingers with my new r-09.
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I just got my edirol r-09 back from doug oade. I had modification done to the line input. Basically an updgrade. The line input normally needs a -10dB signal to go to 0 db on the meters. Now it only takes a -20dB signal to get to 0db so that you should be able to record via the line input and not have to use the mic inputs.
I would imagine that the warranty is over once it has been injected with some steroids. I can only cross my fingers with my new r-09.
Seems this mod added gain and made the line input more like the existing mic input, but I miss the point of having this kind of mod. And the same jack with 'easy breakaway pads' is on both of these inputs, so seems no advantage over having stock R-09 or am I missing something?
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i really have no idea
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Maybe just to have a redundant mic input if you never use the line input?
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i have always used the line input, just because doug oade said he does not do mods on the mic input. I dont know enough to talk about inner workings of equipement, just know enough to record a concert
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i have always used the line input, just because doug oade said he does not do mods on the mic input. I dont know enough to talk about inner workings of equipement, just know enough to record a concert
It probably makes sense what Doug does, depending on how the mic input is implemented.
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i suggest all you folks with the R-09, get a small 1/5" cable that goes 1/8 mini male to 1/8 mini female or 1/4 female. With this cable you can leave the 1/8 portion of the cable in the R-09 at all times. If you need this cable, please PM me and I can get you as many as you want from my company. hope to hear from some of you and happy taping
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good advise.
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something like this? (see attached)
i suggest all you folks with the R-09, get a small 1/5" cable that goes 1/8 mini male to 1/8 mini female or 1/4 female. With this cable you can leave the 1/8 portion of the cable in the R-09 at all times. If you need this cable, please PM me and I can get you as many as you want from my company. hope to hear from some of you and happy taping
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What exactly causes the failure of this jack? is it the "plugging in and out" - or the torque caused by having something plugged in?
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It seems to me that leaving someting plugged into the jack, and thus sticking out of the unit, would make it more succeptable to sideways pressures during transportation, storage and everyday use. Just my .02
Pat
Edit: Good question ^^^^ above
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It seems to me that leaving someting plugged into the jack, and thus sticking out of the unit, would make it more succeptable to sideways pressures during transportation, storage and everyday use. Just my .02
Pat
Edit: Good question ^^^^ above
My thoughts exactly -
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It seems to me that leaving someting plugged into the jack, and thus sticking out of the unit, would make it more succeptable to sideways pressures during transportation, storage and everyday use. Just my .02
Pat
Edit: Good question ^^^^ above
'Sticking out' is primary facilitator to the problem.
You want a small right angle jack cable that is as low-profile as possible weather you leave it plugged in all the time or not. There is some torque applied to the jack while plugging and unplugging and leaving a non-protruding cable plugged in eliminates that as well. IMHO that is secondary and not a big issue if you are not a gorilla.
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If the jack snaps off is it easily repairable?
I just bought a R-09 on eBay so I'm curious what to do if I get this issue as warranty repair is probably out of the question.
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Edirol update: I sent my R09 in for repair, under warranty, 3 weeks ago. Just found out today that the new input jack is back ordered from Japan, and won't arrive to Roland-US until the 3rd week of May. Which means I probably won't get the R09 back until the first week of June ... at the earliest.
"Bleep!" :'(
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Was the problem ever nailed down to a certain production run or was it a design flaw?
I just got mine so I'm wondering.
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Request a loaner or a replacement r09. Do not settle for anything less.
I wonder if they've further modified the part.
Good idea Brian. Thanks!
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Was the problem ever nailed down to a certain production run or was it a design flaw?
I just got mine so I'm wondering.
They definitely had a problem with the first few batches. Mine was retailed last August. Edirol confirmed mine was from a flawed batch. Edirol is a good company, so I am confident they'll take care of my situation. I just hate waiting.
On a side note: I can definitely tell the difference between the R09 and R-1 when in my chain. R-1's ADC sounds harsh when compared to the R09. The bass is not as tight, either.
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ask and get: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84454
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Was the problem ever nailed down to a certain production run or was it a design flaw?
I just got mine so I'm wondering.
They definitely had a problem with the first few batches. Mine was retailed last August. Edirol confirmed mine was from a flawed batch. Edirol is a good company, so I am confident they'll take care of my situation. I just hate waiting.
On a side note: I can definitely tell the difference between the R09 and R-1 when in my chain. R-1's ADC sounds harsh when compared to the R09. The bass is not as tight, either.
First few runs Roland produced had jacks missing molded in securing posts meant to use two predrilled holes already on the PCB board underneath each jack.
Not having this jack, first runs simply left the jacks being held by the jack's fragile (4) PCB solder pads that quickly tore off the board for many users.
To 'fix' this in repairs/newer runs Roland simply glued down the jacks to the board with flexible RTV type glue that doesn't hold well enough and more jacks broke at least one of the rear jack solder pads losing the left channel. It's been several months since opening one of these so I don't know if Roland is now using the correctly molded jacks with through-hole mounting posts.
If or when Roland starts using such jacks, this deck's most troubling shortcoming would finally end to plague us users.
Just posted an updated R-09 deck review with new features including file-fix instruction page .pdf download, and showing a jack extension accessory helping owners of decks with improper designed jacks to improve reliability issues.
www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
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On a side note: I can definitely tell the difference between the R09 and R-1 when in my chain. R-1's ADC sounds harsh when compared to the R09. The bass is not as tight, either.
Very curious how they compare. I can't recall seeing other comparative comments from owners.
And at the risk of completely destroying this thread, may I suggest a comp? ;)
Yes lets do comp but I want to argue about the way we do it endlessly first ok ;) Again I want to apologize to the users of this board for being such a pain in the ass the last week or so about that cable thread.
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Any issues with the new coloured R-09 models? I just got the white one (so much for stealth..) and am wondering if there has been any new model input jack problems reported. Didn't see any so far.. Keeping my fingers crossed :-\
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Any issues with the new coloured R-09 models? I just got the white one (so much for stealth..) and am wondering if there has been any new model input jack problems reported. Didn't see any so far.. Keeping my fingers crossed :-\
It might be the only way to tell if these newer models have just the 'glue down' fix or the real fix using correctly molded jacks with the two rivet posts is by opening one up, removing the top board, and taking a look at the bottom PCB board.
The 'glue fix' on newer made decks will work for a longer time so user failure reports may be delayed. However, expect board damage with normal plug in/plug disconnect (especially if using straight or too large right-angle plugs) usually occurring sometime after the warranty runs out.
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I posted new pure 24 bit r1 and r09 files this am to compare: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84454.msg1121501.html#msg1121501
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Kudos to Roland support!!
Just got my R-09 back after sending it in for jack repair. Mine was an early model, bought just about one year ago. Line-in broke within 90 days but I didn't have time to send it in due to my taping schedule so I continued using the mic-input at reduced gain. Finally got around to calling Roland in January and was issued an RMA but told them at the time it would probably be a few months before I had enough downtime to send it in. I called back about a couple weeks ago and talked to the same support tech and was told to use the same RMA and that they would put a 'rush job' note on the order for me. I sent the recorder in just before Memorial day so they would have it by the following Wednesday, along with the letter below. Recorder arrived here today one week after they received it, with the center board replaced as well as the top face (the silver part with the printing on it) which was a bit scratched up before. They completed the rush job repair and returned the unit at no charge!
Outstanding service, Go team Roland! Once I get home I'll take a look inside to see what the jack to board mounting looks like on the new board.
They took good care of me & I'm a very satisfied customer, seriously considering a second R-09, or perhaps an R-4, also interested in seeing what they'll develop next. ;D
Thursday, May 25, 2007
Edirol R-09 recorder - SN# ZU64011
Line input jack failure – RMA# S13935153
Hey there helpful Edirol technician,
I love the R-09, great little unit, great sound. I recommend it to others regularly. This one has the ‘line-in’ jack failure that I’m sure you have seen plenty of. Since I use the unit every few days, I’ve had to postpone sending it in for repair since last August when the failure occurred. I’ve been very careful using the ‘mic-in’ since then.
I called back in August ‘06 (within 90 days from purchase) but had no time between recording sessions to send the unit in at that point. I called again in January and spoke more at length with Alan in the service department who issued an RMA (#S13935153). I now have a narrow window of time to get the jack repaired so I called yesterday and spoke with Alan again about sending the unit in to you. I asked him to note on the service record that I would like to pay for expedited service to get the unit back as soon as possible.
I have every expectation that this repair will be covered under the parts & labor portion of the warranty since the failure occurred so early on, and seems so wide spread. I am a member of an on-line recording community that has championed this unit (and the R-4 as well) and shares technical, application, and support information amongst ourselves and with inquiring novices. Reports of input jack failure on the early R-09 units in particular are widespread, one of the few weak points of this unit in comparison with the competition. I continue to highly recommend this recorder over the M-audio, Zoom, and other recorders in it’s price range, but caution potential buyers to use a small, right angle stereo 1/8” mini plug input cable to minimize strain on the vulnerable input jack. Other members who have disassembled R-09 units with this failure have reported that the circuit board is configured with mounting holes to mechanically secure the input jacks to the board, but the jacks used in production did not have the required protrusions to mount in those holes. Instead, they report that the jacks are held only by the solder joint to the circuit board, making them quite vulnerable to mechanical failure of the solder joint and possible lifting of the board traces. I encourage you to take a look online at www.taperssection.com if you care to read the usage reports or join in the discussion.
I sincerely hope that this production flaw has been corrected. In my opinion, you have the best small solid state recorder on the market in its class and the continuing firmware updates keep making it better. If it also had a digital input and sync capability to a second R-09, Edirol would rule the world! Most everyone on taperssection.com would buy several of them. Thanks for taking care of this for me & keep up the great work.
Regards,
Lee Byrd
(contact information above)
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Very nice letter, Lee
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Thanks, sometimes a letter can do wonders.
I opened it up last night. Roland replaced the middle (main) circuit board that the input jacks are attached to with a new one. The input jacks appear to be the same ones used previously, without the small tabs that would fit into the existing mounting holes on the board. I don't see evidence of glue of any sort securing the jacks, just the four solder joints to the board trace pads like on the original board.
I couldn't find my magnifier to really take a good look at the solder joints, and I'll probably just reassemble it so I can use it tonight, but I'm now back to considering what to do to beef it up to avoid another failure. Maybe hot glue, maybe epoxy, maybe a tiny wire-tie around the board holding the back of the two jacks down to the board, maybe send it off to schoepsnbox to do his thing on it (wondering what that is).
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Thanks, sometimes a letter can do wonders.
I opened it up last night. Roland replaced the middle (main) circuit board that the input jacks are attached to with a new one. The input jacks appear to be the same ones used previously, without the small tabs that would fit into the existing mounting holes on the board. I don't see evidence of glue of any sort securing the jacks, just the four solder joints to the board trace pads like on the original board.
I couldn't find my magnifier to really take a good look at the solder joints, and I'll probably just reassemble it so I can use it tonight, but I'm now back to considering what to do to beef it up to avoid another failure. Maybe hot glue, maybe epoxy, maybe a tiny wire-tie around the board holding the back of the two jacks down to the board, maybe send it off to schoepsnbox to do his thing on it (wondering what that is).
If you take a picture of the underside of the jacks and the top side I can recommend a solution.
Chris
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Here are some photos of the new replacement board - looks just like the old one, but without the torn trace & lifted jack. ;)
Wide view with board in bottom half of case and internal mics in place:
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..some close ups of the top of the board:
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Here are some photos of the new replacement board - looks just like the old one, but without the torn trace & lifted jack. ;)
Wide view with board in bottom half of case and internal mics in place:
Ok what I would do is get 15 minute epoxy not 5 minute you want something with a long cure time. You have to epoxy this in two stages. First stage try and get some of the epoxy under the jack and all the way around it on the circuit board. Make sure none gets inside the jack :) use a tooth pick for applying it and a thin piece of paper to get it under the jack as much as possible. Remember less is more. Take your time and be careful. Then after that's done. Then get some clear tape like scotch tape and apply it to the parts that have the gold contacts seen through the top of the plastic jack make these as small as possible to provide a good seal. After the first layer of epoxy has dried give it at least 2 hours to cure. Then gently apply epoxy to the top and sides of the jack on the circuit board this will make sure that the jack does not move again use a tooth pick. One word of caution this will void the living hell out of your warranty. And make future repairs for this unit very difficult but if this is done right it will work. The other method that could be done is to put in a second line input jack that has a nut on it drill a hole thru the case and use fine wire to attach off of the pcb connections again I must stress this would be very difficult but it would guarantee that the jack that's on the pcb never gets damaged.
Chris
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..and the bottom. You can see the un-utilized input jack mounting holes in these photos:
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..and the bottom. You can see the un-utilized input jack mounting holes in these photos:
Wow see the holes thru the circuit board lol... That are right on top of the jacks, they are supposed to have plastic pins that go from the input jacks thru the board because they are not there every time you plug into the jack you are pushing the jack backwards this will eventually fail again lol.. This design sucks shit, I use switchcraft jacks in my preamp that have the plastic pins go thru the circuit board to avoid this problem. What has happened here is that Roland got stuck with a bunch of parts that are substandard and they have decided to use them! Not good. They should have contacted the company that makes these and told them to retool the part. So that it worked. But in order to do that you have to purchase 10,000 pcs instead of doing the right thing and losing some money they decided to "use" the parts they had on hand and wait until they were finished before ordering more parts shame shame.
Not good. I would say the epoxy will help but in the end this connection will fail. I would suggest epoxy with a super low profile jack. That never gets removed from this unit EVER..... I would even go as far as to use something on the outside so the jack stays in place.. I know there have been many designs for this already. I would look for a jack that can be reused like the ipod headphone jack and using something like that its very small and very low profile.
Chris
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Here are some photos of the new replacement board - looks just like the old one, but without the torn trace & lifted jack. ;)
Wide view with board in bottom half of case and internal mics in place:
Ok what I would do is get 15 minute epoxy not 5 minute you want something with a long cure time. You have to epoxy this in two stages. First stage try and get some of the epoxy under the jack and all the way around it on the circuit board. Make sure none gets inside the jack :) use a tooth pick for applying it and a thin piece of paper to get it under the jack as much as possible. Remember less is more. Take your time and be careful. Then after that's done. Then get some clear tape like scotch tape and apply it to the parts that have the gold contacts seen through the top of the plastic jack make these as small as possible to provide a good seal. After the first layer of epoxy has dried give it at least 2 hours to cure. Then gently apply epoxy to the top and sides of the jack on the circuit board this will make sure that the jack does not move again use a tooth pick. One word of caution this will void the living hell out of your warranty. And make future repairs for this unit very difficult but if this is done right it will work. The other method that could be done is to put in a second line input jack that has a nut on it drill a hole thru the case and use fine wire to attach off of the pcb connections again I must stress this would be very difficult but it would guarantee that the jack that's on the pcb never gets damaged.
Chris
Thanks Chris.
That's along the lines of what I was thinking. I'm out of warranty in a week anyway so that's not a concern, but like you say I am considering the ability to make my own future repairs if needed. Space in the case is limited for another jack, but I could nix the internal mics and put an auxiliary jack in one of the empty mic housings. That would make a right angle plug input cable lay nicely along the side of the recorder, too. Is the 15 minute epoxy thinner (less viscous) than the 5 minute stuff allowing it to get under the jack? or is there some other reason for using that other than a longer working time?
Looking at this I also realize that if the mic-in jack was broken it might be possible to bypass it by splicing into the internal mic leads that have their own removable attachment points on the board.
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Here are some photos of the new replacement board - looks just like the old one, but without the torn trace & lifted jack. ;)
Wide view with board in bottom half of case and internal mics in place:
Ok what I would do is get 15 minute epoxy not 5 minute you want something with a long cure time. You have to epoxy this in two stages. First stage try and get some of the epoxy under the jack and all the way around it on the circuit board. Make sure none gets inside the jack :) use a tooth pick for applying it and a thin piece of paper to get it under the jack as much as possible. Remember less is more. Take your time and be careful. Then after that's done. Then get some clear tape like scotch tape and apply it to the parts that have the gold contacts seen through the top of the plastic jack make these as small as possible to provide a good seal. After the first layer of epoxy has dried give it at least 2 hours to cure. Then gently apply epoxy to the top and sides of the jack on the circuit board this will make sure that the jack does not move again use a tooth pick. One word of caution this will void the living hell out of your warranty. And make future repairs for this unit very difficult but if this is done right it will work. The other method that could be done is to put in a second line input jack that has a nut on it drill a hole thru the case and use fine wire to attach off of the pcb connections again I must stress this would be very difficult but it would guarantee that the jack that's on the pcb never gets damaged.
Chris
Thanks Chris.
That's along the lines of what I was thinking. I'm out of warranty in a week anyway so that's not a concern, but like you say I am considering the ability to make my own future repairs if needed. Space in the case is limited for another jack, but I could nix the internal mics and put an auxiliary jack in one of the empty mic housings. That would make a right angle plug input cable lay nicely along the side of the recorder, too. Is the 15 minute epoxy thinner (less viscous) than the 5 minute stuff allowing it to get under the jack? or is there some other reason for using that other than a longer working time?
Looking at this I also realize that if the mic-in jack was broken it might be possible to bypass it by splicing into the internal mic leads that have their own removable attachment points on the board.
15 minute epoxy is much thicker but.. if you mix it 50/50 and work with it very quickly you will be able to do it. I would consider doing the epoxy but I would also attach leads to the solder pads as well.. So that you have options in the future if the jack goes south. I have opened up another Roland product that uses the same jacks guess what... The plastic pins are there... :) I guess they do have them after all makes me wonder why they are not using them..???
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5 minute epoxy starts to gel within about 2-3 minutes depending on ambient temp and how you mix it.. It just goes way too fast... A longer setting epoxy will also be a little stronger. You can thicken the epoxy with fillers (some fillers are strong, some are weak and intended for easy sanding) and I'd recommend that vs. waiting for that brief window where it briefly thickens right before setting. Even 15 minute epoxy is a bit brief for a project like this.
There seems to be plenty of room to install a switchcraft panel mount jack in place of the microphone. That's probably what I'll do rather than the epoxy. Chris' suggestion of soldering wires to the pads before epoxying is probably a good way to go... of course if you still rip it out after the epoxy, I'm guessing your wires will come with it.
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5 minute epoxy starts to gel within about 2-3 minutes depending on ambient temp and how you mix it.. It just goes way too fast... A longer setting epoxy will also be a little stronger. You can thicken the epoxy with fillers (some fillers are strong, some are weak and intended for easy sanding) and I'd recommend that vs. waiting for that brief window where it briefly thickens right before setting. Even 15 minute epoxy is a bit brief for a project like this.
There seems to be plenty of room to install a switchcraft panel mount jack in place of the microphone. That's probably what I'll do rather than the epoxy. Chris' suggestion of soldering wires to the pads before epoxying is probably a good way to go... of course if you still rip it out after the epoxy, I'm guessing your wires will come with it.
You are right about the epoxy.. I think if you can use small enough wires you can tie a knot in them right after the solder pad and that would act as an anchor for the wire once the epoxy set up. Then you would not have to worry "as much" about pulling the trace with the wire. I think its a pretty good idea. Then if you dont use the wires you could just cap them off with some heatshrink and wait until you do have a problem with the jack.
Chris
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Wow see the holes thru the circuit board lol... That are right on top of the jacks, they are supposed to have plastic pins that go from the input jacks thru the board because they are not there every time you plug into the jack you are pushing the jack backwards this will eventually fail again lol..
Yep. That's the source of the problem. I was hoping the new board they replaced mine with would have had the correct jacks with the plastic pins by now - almost a year later. I was originally thinking of soldering small leads to the input jack's solder pads and running a pig tail out to an external jack, knotted behind the exit hole for stress relief, but now I'm leaning towards putting a nutted jack in the end of one of the internal mic housings which I could easily replace if necessary. The switchcraft panel mount jack sounds like the one, Freelunch.
I'm pleased Roland took care of the repair quickly and at no charge, but I was really hoping for the correct 'pinned' jacks in the new part. R-09 users be aware that this issue is still one to be careful about, even with new R-09's!
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Wow see the holes thru the circuit board lol... That are right on top of the jacks, they are supposed to have plastic pins that go from the input jacks thru the board because they are not there every time you plug into the jack you are pushing the jack backwards this will eventually fail again lol..
Yep. That's the source of the problem. I was hoping the new board they replaced mine with would have had the correct jacks with the plastic pins by now - almost a year later. I was originally thinking of soldering small leads to the input jack's solder pads and running a pig tail out to an external jack, knotted behind the exit hole for stress relief, but now I'm leaning towards putting a nutted jack in the end of one of the internal mic housings which I could easily replace if necessary. The switchcraft panel mount jack sounds like the one, Freelunch.
I'm pleased Roland took care of the repair quickly and at no charge, but I was really hoping for the correct 'pinned' jacks in the new part. R-09 users be aware that this issue is still one to be careful about, even with new R-09's!
Do you have a micrometer? if so can you measure the jack and the hole spacing I might be able to find the "correct part" and then you can unsolder the old jack and put in the proper one + the epoxy would be a pretty solid fix. The problem with fixing after its broken is that the solder pads most likely separate from the microscopic traces they are using to the input jack making a repair after the fact almost impossible ( good design work ) :) I will say this about ROLAND they make some of the best products out there they have great designs for there products and the R-09 is amazing but dam they had to know you guys would actually want to use the line input jacks and mic jacks didn't they?
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you have a micrometer? if so can you measure the jack and the hole spacing I might be able to find the "correct part" and then you can unsolder the old jack and put in the proper one + the epoxy would be a pretty solid fix. The problem with fixing after its broken is that the solder pads most likely separate from the microscopic traces they are using to the input jack making a repair after the fact almost impossible ( good design work ) :) I will say this about ROLAND they make some of the best products out there they have great designs for there products and the R-09 is amazing but dam they had to know you guys would actually want to use the line input jacks and mic jacks didn't they?
I'll dig mine out. That's exactly how mine failed. The jack lifted the solder pad off the board and ripped the microscopic board trace. Which is why I'll probably be installing the auxillary jacks and taping over the stock jacks so they aren't used at all.
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With all this talk of applying epoxy on PC boards, it might be worth mentioning that not all epoxies are non-conductive. The vast majority of them are non-conductive, but there are some that are conductive. Putting anything on o PC board that is even slightly conductive will be sure to alter the circuit somewhat.
Most epoxy manufactures will have conductivity information available on their websites.
Food for thought.
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Fix suggestions for gluing down the jack is in another thread somewhere.
Photos show OLD JACK design without any glue (which is good so you don't have to remove Roland's 'flex' glue that still allows pads to break. However, using AS-IS will cause pads to break off the board way too easily again.
Highly suggest the following:
First use pure alcohol with Qtip to clean just the glue surfaces on side of jack and surrounding board ONLY. and this treatment helps the epoxy stick much better.
Do not attempt to solder anything to jack pads (asking for trouble for little or no gain, or try to force glue underneath the jacks (won't reach or hold much of anything). Glue ONLY the sides of these jacks avoiding getting anything inside jacks. Taping over holes is good suggestion if not covering jack surfaces needed for glue to hold.
Do NOT attempt to replace or bypass these jacks as there is a mechanical ground switch the deck uses to turn MIC/LINE jack ON when plug is inserted. If you bypass or replace the jacks, the deck will not select anything external and use the internal mics ONLY.
And finally, SHAME ON ROLAND FOR NOT AT LEAST GLUING DOWN THESE JACKS or finding the correct molded jacks that use those board mounting holes!
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With all this talk of applying epoxy on PC boards, it might be worth mentioning that not all epoxies are non-conductive. The vast majority of them are non-conductive, but there are some that are conductive. Putting anything on o PC board that is even slightly conductive will be sure to alter the circuit somewhat.
Most epoxy manufactures will have conductivity information available on their websites.
Food for thought.
I am pretty sure at $40 a tube you would know if you were using conductive epoxy :)
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With all this talk of applying epoxy on PC boards, it might be worth mentioning that not all epoxies are non-conductive. The vast majority of them are non-conductive, but there are some that are conductive. Putting anything on o PC board that is even slightly conductive will be sure to alter the circuit somewhat.
Most epoxy manufactures will have conductivity information available on their websites.
Food for thought.
I am pretty sure at $40 a tube you would know if you were using conductive epoxy :)
Suggest using 'clear' epoxy as conductive types are NOT clear with having conducting metal particles in the mix.
Plastic 'welder' type epoxies are not clear, rather with a 'creamy' semi-translucent look, and better adhesion to many hard to grip plastic surfaces like inside the deck, and as far as I know, also have no conducting metal particles. I have used this type inside the deck in the past and no problems so far. These types are generally 'higher viscosity' types, and are a bit harder to force into small features like corners.
Some heat conducting epoxies do have metal oxides and maybe some other stuff, and also should not conduct, but maybe stay away from these in general just to be sure.
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IMO, yanking out the internal mics and wiring up a ta3 jack on each side. one for "in" and while at it...one for "out". its even close enough to the same diameter that it should fit easily.
thats what I'd do...if I still had one.
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Do NOT attempt to replace or bypass these jacks as there is a mechanical ground switch the deck uses to turn MIC/LINE jack ON when plug is inserted. If you bypass or replace the jacks, the deck will not select anything external and use the internal mics ONLY.
Since that mod would remove the mics, selecting between them and the jack is not a consideration. The jack can be live all the time.
I haven't dug into the switchcraft parts and I don't know the exact terminology, but what about using a switched jack? I remember those on many devices... insert the headphone and the speaker is cut, etc.
While I'd rather not install a selector switch, it is another option.... or just hardwire the deck to line in only.
I figure after this mod it'd be an r10. Anything else that could push it to 11?
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Before you guys go on to 'fix' these jacks consider that Roland may have already placed low viscosity glue on the bottom BEFORE SOLDERING these down to the board. If done right, the entire bottom side of the jack will be securely fastened down to the PCB with PROPER toughened 'instant type glue or epoxy adhesive and be ALMOST as durable as having the correct jacks with through-hole rivet posts.
Only way to tell if this has been done is to spot some of the glue from looking through the unused rivet holes from back of board or wait to see if the jack doesn't break off the board again in a year's time of using with the usual stress inducing plugs.
Of course trying to unsolder and remove the jacks might also tell if these are now bottom-glued down, but then there's good chance of weakening or doing more harm than good to the delicate circuit pads.
Asking Roland about what might have been done with newer production runs to fix this problem is difficult in getting an answer from someone who really knows the production steps used in China when making these newer board versions.
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Was the problem ever nailed down to a certain production run or was it a design flaw?
I just got mine so I'm wondering.
They definitely had a problem with the first few batches. Mine was retailed last August. Edirol confirmed mine was from a flawed batch. Edirol is a good company, so I am confident they'll take care of my situation. I just hate waiting.
On a side note: I can definitely tell the difference between the R09 and R-1 when in my chain. R-1's ADC sounds harsh when compared to the R09. The bass is not as tight, either.
Got mine back from Roland 2 weeks ago. Everything is working fine. No issues to report. I use a Switchcraft RA now on my cable.
Only complaint: weak packaging by Roland on the return shipping. Looked like an eBay newb had boxed it up. No bubble wrap or foam. R09 was in a rubber band, wrapped with folded paper on one side (1.20 firmware instructions), placed in a box with heavy paper for padding. It also had heavy tape residue on the back, which was NOT there when I shipped it out. And I shipped it to them in bubble wrap. I expect better from a company like Roland.
First 3 pictures is how I received my stuff from Roland. The last 2 is how I received my stuff from AKG.
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Before you guys go on to 'fix' these jacks consider that Roland may have already placed low viscosity glue on the bottom BEFORE SOLDERING these down to the board. If done right, the entire bottom side of the jack will be securely fastened down to the PCB with PROPER toughened 'instant type glue or epoxy adhesive and be ALMOST as durable as having the correct jacks with through-hole rivet posts.
Only way to tell if this has been done is to spot some of the glue from looking through the unused rivet holes from back of board or wait to see if the jack doesn't break off the board again in a year's time of using with the usual stress inducing plugs. ...
It doesn't appear that Roland put any glue under the jacks on my replacement board - examining the unused rivet holes reveals nothing but clean plastic. There is epoxy in there now. :)
I cleaned the board & jacks with denatured alcohol and scuffed the surface of the jacks a bit, then mixed and applied JB Weld brand epoxy around the perimeter of the input jacks and to the mounting holes to secure them to the board. I had the JB Weld on hand and have used it for other projects in the past so I was familiar with it's working properties. It's a high-strength 'slow cure' non-conductive epoxy, but does have 'fillers' of some sort added for strength. Lacking toothpicks, I cut some matchsticks to make some nice pointy applicators. The pointy matchsticks also worked well to herd and remove excess epoxy and keep it from covering the solder pads so that I can still solder on leads to other jacks at some point. I was careful not to get epoxy in any of the openings in the jack housings, let everything dry overnight and reassembled this morning. I'll try it out tonight.
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NO glue under the jacks from Roland is disappointing news. Hard to believe at this late date. Hoping to look at recently purchased R-09 run for something proactive to good repair service like the correct jacks or better glue BEFORE soldering these down in production. Have a MOD-3 to do on one that may show something different being done, or not. Let you know if there's any improvements found.
Gutbuckets gluing seems very clean. I have not considered placing glue at the board's top edge around the input jack like he's done, and glue application on the sides of the jack seems a little too light to maybe not have enough surface to hold well. Time will tell if this technique meets expectations. Let us know down the road how this is holding up.
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Let us know down the road how this is holding up.
Will do.
The jack worked just fine over the weekend, I just have to mentally recalibrate my gain settings back to using line in vs. mic in. I'll probably put a second layer if epoxy on the side areas. I didn't want to go too heavy for the first layer to help keep the epoxy only where I wanted it and away from where I didn't. I keep a short, low profile RT angle cable plugged in most of the time now anyway.
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can someone tell me HOW I can open my R-09?
after removing the 2 screws I can lift the upper half of the front cover but it seems to be stuck somewhere near the mics.
thx
arni
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can someone tell me HOW I can open my R-09?
after removing the 2 screws I can lift the upper half of the front cover but it seems to be stuck somewhere near the mics.
thx
arni
Halfway down page 3 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5540afe7efef79405c373087ca29d158&topic=71160.30msg970368msg970368) of this thread.
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NO glue under the jacks from Roland is disappointing news. Hard to believe at this late date. Hoping to look at recently purchased R-09 run for something proactive to good repair service like the correct jacks or better glue BEFORE soldering these down in production. Have a MOD-3 to do on one that may show something different being done, or not. Let you know if there's any improvements found.
Did the MOD-3 (www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm#mod3 (http://www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm#mod3)) on a newly purchased R-09 finding NO INDICATION of glue showing underneath the input jacks. However, soldering on both the jacks to the board pads was top-notch excellent. So like I've done in the past with MOD-3 service, the jacks also were epoxy'd down just to make sure they provide good reliable service for my customer.
At this late date, I can't help but hope we are just not seeing a reasonable amount of structural adhesive applied UNDERNEATH these input jacks before Roland's soldering operation. Until I know they are doing something like this in manufacturing, AND it is holding these jacks reliably so the board isn't torn up in a few months of using, I will continue to glue these jacks down, and suggest everyone else considers doing the same if at all possible or use a jack externsion like that shown on the review page at www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm).
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I opened my R-09 today which I bought last December (Dec 2006). The jacks seem to be fastened to the board with some lucent glue. I think there is no picture of this kind here. I'm posting this picture just for an information.
I used R-09 for a couple of times and the Mic/Line jacks work well.
I'm considering to add some epoxy-glue around the jack as Gutbucket has done to his one.
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Unless I'm missing something, your photo shows NO glue whatsoever.
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I think lucent material over the terminals is glue.
I'm not specialize in electrics. If it's not glue, sorry for wrong informations.
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Ohyeah, that's glue allright! I'm quite happy with this, since I don't dare opening up mine right now. It's not a lot of glue but seems enough to spread the strain over a larger area, so less chance of loosening. Kinda good news, thanks for your efforts!
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Great photos of the little dabs!
In this case, I don't think a dab will do ya... That film layer just seems too thin to do much. I'm wondering if they touched up the solder pads on a re-work station and the film is just a protective sealant?
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I think lucent material over the terminals is glue.
I'm not specialize in electrics. If it's not glue, sorry for wrong informations.
It definitely is some kind of adhesive and not solder flux to my eyes. And while this does spread the stress over a larger than just the solder pad area of the board to give some improvement in hold power, it seems WAY TOO LITTLE a measure as most the stress is still being absorbed by the solder pad itself, and not much holding surface is being added by the surround glue around the pad.
In other words I agree with those who feel this is not a good enough fix. Time will tell is this holds up better than Roland's 'grey flex' adhesive we've seen on other 'reworked' boards that still lets go after short time use as I've personally had happen to one of my decks.
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I think lucent material over the terminals is glue.
I'm not specialize in electrics. If it's not glue, sorry for wrong informations.
Well even though that looks like Glue I would still use epoxy :) Better safe then to come "unglued" I always say.. :)
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Hey all.... I have a friend that was out of taping for quite some time. During Vegoose last year he borrowed my R-9 for stages that I was not going to. In the process he scratched the heck out of the body and display (but did not break the inputs :-). I figured lesson learned be more careful loaning out gear. Well, he decided to get back into taping and ordered a new R-9 a couple of weeks ago and gave it in trade to me for the one that he scratched up. To put it mildly it was a very pleasant, out of the blue, surprise.
Anyway... I don't know if you can tell manufacture date from the serial but my new one is EV342xx.
I checked back in on this thread and saw all the new pictures. I took the new unit apart. I also have the new adhesive on the solder points. If I look at the back of the board the holes still do not have plastic pins. However, the one thing I noticed is that in gently wiggling the jacks it seems as if they are *alot* more secure than they should be for just the adhesive over the solder points. I tried looking in the empty holes on the back of the board with a magnifying glass and led light and there was no noticeable glue/epoxy/etc. However, those jacks seem pretty solid and I can't imagine it being from just the adhesive over the solder. It's just a guess but I would say there is some kind of glue between the jacks and the board now.
I'd take pictures.... But I don't think visually I can really add anything to what has already been posted.
Stay Kind,
Dana
EDIT: As a general note... I was in Walgreen's this weekend and up with the blank cds, sd cards, etc they had a fake leather camera case for $9 that fits the R-9 perfectly. I don't use the internal mics, but if you do the way the flap on the top closes it even leaves the top corners open for the mics. I'm going to drill a few holes out for inputs/outputs and cut some areas of the case out with my dremil so I have access to all displays and buttons. With a bit of elbow grease it could turn into the perfect case for the R-9. I'm going to try to do it over the 4th. I'll post pictures when done.
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Glue just over solder pads and nothing else would still allow the jack's plastic body to 'float' a bit with plug inserted, or so I'm thinking.
If body of jack now seems 'rock solid' and not moving with plug stresses, then more likely some dabs of same clear adhesive (as seen on pads IS UNDERNEATH and holding the plastic down to the board. As before, time will tell if anything Roland is now doing proves to solve the mechanical shortcomings of not having jacks with through-hole rivet posts.
A fully functioning (sans mics) with deck inside a protective case solution is of interest to many, so please do photos with make/model if selected case works as expected.
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Thank you for many valuable posts on this topic about the fixation of the jacks.
I couldn't confirm the existence of the glue between the jack and the board. I'm not sure whether there is glue underneath the plastic or not ???. Here are other photos of R-09 which I bought in Dec. 2006. Empty holes show no glue or no protorusions of the plastic(Fig. 1). There is no glue around the edge of the jack(Fig. 2).
I thougnt the jacks might have enough strength but more glue would make them firmer and more reliable. I dicided to glue the parts. I used Epoxy Elastic Adhesive.
I put the glue into the empty holes with tooth pick(Fig. 3). After that, I saw the glue at the edge of the jack(Fig. 4) :o. The edges were clean before I put on the glue as shown in Fig 2. I think the glue came through the gap between the jacks and the board.
I put the glue around the jack(Fig. 5 & 6). I didn't put the glue over the terminals. I hope I did no harm to R-09 and this glue will add rigidness of the jacks :).
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Seems I just joined the club of broken MIC-IN jack >:(!
I always used right-angle cable on mic-in and today when i tested my mics on MIC-IN and pressed REC the screen looked like this:
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6742/cimg1199vf8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
right channel always on FULL GAIN peaking....when LOW-CUT was set to OFF.
Switching LOW-CUT to ON => there is NO signal at all on the right-channel.
Amen...
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Recently purchased new? Or maybe manufactured over 4-6 months ago before newer transparent glued versions started arriving?
Losing left channel signal is good indication of the jack's left channel pad leaving contact with board traces as it's usually the first to go leaving the right channel operating normally, at least for awhile. As of last posts remembered, Roland repair service seems to offer a reasonably prompt solution.
As always good practice, double check your input devices/connectors ARE WORKING OK in other inputs before settling on the R-09 needing service.
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Recently purchased new? Or maybe manufactured over 4-6 months ago before newer transparent glued versions started arriving?
Losing left channel signal is good indication of the jack's left channel pad leaving contact with board traces as it's usually the first to go leaving the right channel operating normally, at least for awhile. As of last posts remembered, Roland repair service seems to offer a reasonably prompt solution.
As always good practice, double check your input devices/connectors ARE WORKING OK in other inputs before settling on the R-09 needing service.
Purchased this R09 2 month ago on June 16th 2007 in Vienna....it´s the red one as you can see.
Tested with my hlsc-1 and my dpa-4061 mics....both the same result. both mics and bbox work fine on my iHP-120/RH1 though.
Will return this unit tomorrow.
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My R09 is on its way to the Edirol service center....either the problem will be fixed by Edirol or I´ll get a new one......my vendor doesn´t know what will happen but believes I´ll get a new one....
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For this very reason, I'm being extremely careful with my R-09. I love this little machine, but this type of thing worries me. :-\
Shoot, last night when I got a patch from another taper to my line in we were only getting on channel! I instantly thought of this, but I'd never even USED the line in until last night. Luckily, the problem was the jacks weren't plugged in all the way! ::) :-[
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For this very reason, I'm being extremely careful with my R-09. I love this little machine, but this type of thing worries me. :-\
Shoot, last night when I got a patch from another taper to my line in we were only getting on channel! I instantly thought of this, but I'd never even USED the line in until last night. Luckily, the problem was the jacks weren't plugged in all the way! ::) :-[
i always handled my r09 like my balls ;D, it just happens....no chance....always used a right angle plug.....
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i always handled my r09 like my balls ;D, it just happens....no chance....always used a right angle plug.....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What's your experience with the MM HLSC-1? Can you get them here in Europe?
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What's your experience with the MM HLSC-1? Can you get them here in Europe?
no, you need to order them from microphonemadness.com ...ordered several items from mm...always great service ;).
I like them, others don´t or like at853s more or church cardioids.
It´s just a matter of personal taste.
try them all as i did and decide when testing is over ;).
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well, I made it: a year with a straight cable. And, just this weekend, built a right angle input cable.
:clapping: I'm have about 1 year and a month use into my R-09 with a right angle plug.
*knocks on wood*
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well, I made it: a year with a straight cable. And, just this weekend, built a right angle input cable.
Thanks for posting the good news!!! :spin:
R-09 reliability reports seems excellent, sans the input jacks that started breaking immediately.
Wonder if credit for the one years worth of trouble-free use is having Roland's flexible grey (or maybe better adhesive) under those plastic jacks? :hmmm:
Hard to figure as it seems the Flex-grey glue fix appeared not quite a year ago, and maybe 3-4 months into recently manufactured decks to likely have transparent instant glued down jacks.
I'd like to think more than exceptionally ginger handling and charmed luck is at cause
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my R09 is back from UK-service.
took about 10 days from austria=>UK(service center)=>austria.
I´ll pick it up in a few hours.
it has a NEW MAINBOARD now, so I can´t really tell IF the jacks got loose and caused the failure.
all on warranty as it´s only 3 month old.
;)
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i use right angle jack on line in with female 3.5 mm barrel. i also built this guard to protect the jack from bumps.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,82987.msg1101528.html#msg1101528
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>:D
same fault AGAIN with the "serviced" unit after I plugged in my right-angle plug into mic-in.........
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So about 2 weeks ago my r-09 line-in fails mid show. Fine one minute then no left channel all the sudden, sitting on the table with nothing around. So I dig up my invoice to take for service and notice, lucky me, I have been the proud owner of a r-09 for 1year and two days! I decide that I will use the mic-in for a couple little shows I have coming up at which point I now notice that it has completly shit the bed. The two top switches on the back (auto gain control and ext mic) have become loose? and seem to change on their own accord.
I dropped it off at roland service yesterday...now waiting for the $40 "estimate" hmmm...whats a new one go for these days? >:(
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I am just over one year w/my R-09 and have had no problems. Used mostly the line-in jack, and usually with either a RA cable or RA adapter.
So who is doing resolder work on these out-of-warranty decks?
I may open mine up soon to check it out/do some strengthening work on the jacks just to be safe.
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My mic input has developed the "no left channel" problem. My unit is well past the warranty period. Does anyone know what Edirol charges to repair out-of-warranty units with this problem? And how do I go about getting it fixed?
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>:D
same fault AGAIN with the "serviced" unit after I plugged in my right-angle plug into mic-in.........
just got a call from my local retailer.
after 2nd mic-in jack failure within several hours after 1st service, i´ll get a NEW edirol-r09.
seems they can´t fix the problem with the full(or NO-gain)-right-channel-problem.
not sure wether i should keep or sell it immediately.....?! I don´t trust edirol anymore....always treated the inputs carefully as i knew about the input problems...
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>:D
same fault AGAIN with the "serviced" unit after I plugged in my right-angle plug into mic-in.........
just got a call from my local retailer.
after 2nd mic-in jack failure within several hours after 1st service, i´ll get a NEW edirol-r09.
seems they can´t fix the problem with the full(or NO-gain)-right-channel-problem.
not sure wether i should keep or sell it immediately.....?! I don´t trust edirol anymore....always treated the inputs carefully as i knew about the input problems...
I might be a certified 'NEWLY MADE' R-09 IS FAULTLESS!?! :-\
Having already paid the price of admission for having a R-09, maybe this is NOT the time to bail out. :(
:thinking: Consider Roland's position after nearly a year's worth of broken input jacks flooding the service departments worldwide, they are still making this deck, and newly made models have got to be better than in the past. :clapping:
Suggest keeping until it breaks OR NOT.:whipped:
You now have the best chance for satisfaction with a most recent version. :yahoo:
If jacks are now solid, it's a really nicely made/easy operating deck that seems most reliable in all other ways. No other like it for sure. :wink2:
Please keep us posted 8)
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>:D
same fault AGAIN with the "serviced" unit after I plugged in my right-angle plug into mic-in.........
just got a call from my local retailer.
after 2nd mic-in jack failure within several hours after 1st service, i´ll get a NEW edirol-r09.
seems they can´t fix the problem with the full(or NO-gain)-right-channel-problem.
not sure wether i should keep or sell it immediately.....?! I don´t trust edirol anymore....always treated the inputs carefully as i knew about the input problems...
I might be a certified 'NEWLY MADE' R-09 IS FAULTLESS!?! :-\
Having already paid the price of admission for having a R-09, maybe this is NOT the time to bail out. :(
:thinking: Consider Roland's position after nearly a year's worth of broken input jacks flooding the service departments worldwide, they are still making this deck, and newly made models have got to be better than in the past. :clapping:
Suggest keeping until it breaks OR NOT.:whipped:
You now have the best chance for satisfaction with a most recent version. :yahoo:
If jacks are now solid, it's a really nicely made/easy operating deck that seems most reliable in all other ways. No other like it for sure. :wink2:
Please keep us posted 8)
you know my faulty r09 was the red one from June 2007..a new-model only 2 month old.
that´s why I´m suspicious.
edit: the r09 deserves a 2nd chance...if the new one breaks again I´m done with the r09 ;).
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edit: the r09 deserves a 2nd chance...if the new one breaks again I´m done with the r09 ;).
Question is, what is the alternative for a good 24/48 small stealth deck???
The similar decks out there are all less than 48 or internal batteries and not good for stealthing
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HA, can´t believe it, same problem again with the new R09 after taping 1 show on line-in which worked flawlessly.
today i tried the mic-in.
plugin power ON:
with AGC ON it works correctly.
AGC-OFF=>left channel ok, right channel levelmeter clipping and always 100% on. playback shows only left channel was being recorded.
LOW-CUT OFF: right channel has no signal according to the levelmeters.
my mics work fine on my iriver h120 and my sony mz-rh1.
Goodbye Edirol... ;D
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HA, can´t believe it, same problem again with the new R09 after taping 1 show on line-in which worked flawlessly.
today i tried the mic-in.
plugin power ON:
with AGC ON it works correctly.
AGC-OFF=>left channel ok, right channel levelmeter clipping and always 100% on. playback shows only left channel was being recorded.
LOW-CUT OFF: right channel has no signal according to the levelmeters.
my mics work fine on my iriver h120 and my sony mz-rh1.
Goodbye Edirol... ;D
:really_sucks: Agree the jacks should hold up same as other decks have for you, :angry3: but VERY CURIOUS to how your right-angle hardware looks. :hmmm:
:help: Could you please post a decent picture showing the R-09 with your input hardware connected as you've been using it? :jawdrop:
:whipped: Seems to me your connectors are maybe extra hard on jacks for maybe being too large, at least under the circumstances. :instagib:
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extra hard on jacks
(http://cristal.inria.fr/~harley/ecdl3/pics/butthead.gif)
(carry on.)
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Here what my plugs look like....standard soundprofessionals and microphonemadness plugs.
I always use(d) the right angle plug and never the straight-plug trying not to damage the mic-input.
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here what my plugs look like....standard soundprofessionals and microphonemadness plugs.
Thank you for posting the photos. :spin:
NO problem picking the right-angle plug as likely innocent, :angel: but that dual cord straight plug definitely looks like an R-09 jack killer especially if used in pocketed or in-carrying-bag stxxlth mode where giving the cords few even minor stress-inducing :crying: tugs is unavoidable. :veryevil:
And this is exactly what breaks R-09 not cemented firmly enough jacks.
So I'm now thinking adequate glue-down, was NOT done on your most recent replacement. :shockrifle:
Being somewhat an optimist, might also be Roland is recycling 'supposed to be jack fixed' refurbished decks from older runs as replacements, and you have yet to try Roland's most recent jack fix? :hmmm:
Same NOT GOOD ENOUGH credit :gun: goes to Roland either way, even if your replacement deck is not most recent version.
Since it seems you're on a roll, :drummer: and have a 'dialog' going with Roland service :help: , :flack: maybe keep returning the broken R-09 untill either getting a more solid fix, or a full refund.
Actually getting a manufacturer's product refund raises a special kind of corporate flag that's way more noticeable than repeated service fix cycles, and losing sales cash helps gets across a louder dissatisfaction message. :jawdrop:
And you get 'all your money' back instead of trying to sell used for less. :lol:
Suggest getting by using another (the back up?) deck when the R-09 is out traveling like a ping-pong ball back - forth in play?
Please post what's happening, especially :wink2: if deciding to play more rounds of R-09 'table-tennis' with Roland :coolguy:
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someone needs to disable the use of simleys around here ;)
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sorry... can someone explain why the angled mini-jacks have less stress on the input on the R-09?
sorry for the dumbass question....
bhakti
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I made it for a year with a straight connector.
I think more important than a RA connector, I used extremely flexible, narrow diameter cable.
Nah. It is fear that keeps your r09 in line. Fear of the Dremel.
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I made it for a year with a straight connector.
I think more important than a RA connector, I used extremely flexible, narrow diameter cable.
Nah. It is fear that keeps your r09 in line. Fear of the Dremel.
:lol:
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sorry... can someone explain why the angled mini-jacks have less stress on the input on the R-09?
sorry for the dumbass question....
bhakti
While all R/A plugs are NOT better at keeping stress low, the small size molded one you show having very flexible cord IS type producing less stress. Mechanism is fulcrum associated with leverage advantage.
Example is: If you use a smaller-shorter length pry bar on something, you have LESS applied force than if using a longer length pry bar. Same goes for plug strain relief size in that larger produces more force when bumped or the cord is tugged. (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/figuren/a045.gif)
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end of the story ;):
Just returned from my local retailer and got a 3rd Edirol R-09.
BUT I WON`T UNWRAP THIS ONE! ;D
They tested my mics and I showed them my mics work fine on my MZ-RH1.
On THEIR R09 my mics worked fine too, but on my 3 days old one they didn´t.....
They called Edirol who told them a problem like that is NOT KNOWN and has never happened, also no problem with mic-in or line-in jacks...HAHA!
THE NEW ONE IS FOR SALE!
380€ shipping included for all European tapers.
398€ is the price for a new one in Europe.
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end of the story ;):
Just returned from my local retailer and got a 3rd Edirol R-09.
BUT I WON`T UNWRAP THIS ONE! ;D
They tested my mics and I showed them my mics work fine on my MZ-RH1.
On THEIR R09 my mics worked fine too, but on my 3 days old one they didn´t.....
They called Edirol who told them a problem like that is NOT KNOWN and has never happened, also no problem with mic-in or line-in jacks...HAHA!
THE NEW ONE IS FOR SALE!
380€ shipping included for all European tapers.
398€ is the price for a new one in Europe.
Good luck on finding new owner, and another affordable flash deck that breaks only when thrown or hammered. :bigsmile:
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end of the story ;):
Just returned from my local retailer and got a 3rd Edirol R-09.
BUT I WON`T UNWRAP THIS ONE! ;D
They tested my mics and I showed them my mics work fine on my MZ-RH1.
On THEIR R09 my mics worked fine too, but on my 3 days old one they didn´t.....
They called Edirol who told them a problem like that is NOT KNOWN and has never happened, also no problem with mic-in or line-in jacks...HAHA!
THE NEW ONE IS FOR SALE!
380€ shipping included for all European tapers.
398€ is the price for a new one in Europe.
Good luck on finding new owner, and another affordable flash deck that breaks only when thrown or hammered. :bigsmile:
thx, I´m fine with my rockboxed iriver H120 and my Sony MZ-RH1 with solid input jacks etc. ;).
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gmm6797 wrote
"what is the alternative [to the R-09] for a good 24/48 small stealth deck??? "
guysonic wrote:
"Good luck on finding...another affordable flash deck that breaks only when thrown or hammered."
I like what I've read so far about the new Marantz PMD620.
Specs are very similar to R-1 and R-09.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,91816.0.html
Delivery is supposed to start in November. MSRP is $399,
so I expect dealers will offer it somewhere around $300
after the first few weeks.
At this point, nobody knows what the PMD620 sounds like.
The preamp in the PMD660 has major limitations, but
the PMD671 sounds very good.
Flintstone
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I asked this question once before, but it doesn't seem like anyone answered so I'll try again:
I have an out-of-warranty original build R09 that is suffering from the mic input defect. What should I do? I live in Los Angeles. Where can I get it fixed? How much will it cost me? Can I ship it back to Edirol and get one of the new builds?
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I asked this question once before, but it doesn't seem like anyone answered so I'll try again:
I have an out-of-warranty original build R09 that is suffering from the mic input defect. What should I do? I live in Los Angeles. Where can I get it fixed? How much will it cost me? Can I ship it back to Edirol and get one of the new builds?
My R-09 manual gives 5900 S Eastern Ave, Los Angeles, CA 90040-2938 for Roland Corporation USA (main headquarters), TEL 323-890 3700.
Give them a call Monday to find out service cost and how to send in for repair.
NO WAY you can do anything yourself. I consider myself an expert with 3+ decades of experience with equipment and optical aids to do smallest SMT board work (I do mics and chip to board construction, so having this kind of gear is mandatory), and even I was sweating to repair my own R-09, and barely was able to fix the damage.
Even Roland throws away the damaged boards I think, just sending back with new, or repaired for other reason board inside.
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It doesn't appear that Roland put any glue under the jacks on my replacement board - examining the unused rivet holes reveals nothing but clean plastic. There is epoxy in there now. :)
I cleaned the board & jacks with denatured alcohol and scuffed the surface of the jacks a bit, then mixed and applied JB Weld brand epoxy around the perimeter of the input jacks and to the mounting holes to secure them to the board. I had the JB Weld on hand and have used it for other projects in the past so I was familiar with it's working properties. It's a high-strength 'slow cure' non-conductive epoxy, but does have 'fillers' of some sort added for strength. Lacking toothpicks, I cut some matchsticks to make some nice pointy applicators. The pointy matchsticks also worked well to herd and remove excess epoxy and keep it from covering the solder pads so that I can still solder on leads to other jacks at some point. I was careful not to get epoxy in any of the openings in the jack housings, let everything dry overnight and reassembled this morning. I'll try it out tonight.
Is there a certain type of JB Weld (or another nonconductive epoxy) that is best for this strengthening? I've seen JB Weld described elsewhere as "nonconductive", but I've also seen one type that said it was good for soldering, and they all seem to contain "steel", which doesnt sound very nonconductive (or is that just a more general expression for very strong stuff) ??? Is it the Marine Weld type that you used?
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It doesn't appear that Roland put any glue under the jacks on my replacement board - examining the unused rivet holes reveals nothing but clean plastic. There is epoxy in there now. :)
I cleaned the board & jacks with denatured alcohol and scuffed the surface of the jacks a bit, then mixed and applied JB Weld brand epoxy around the perimeter of the input jacks and to the mounting holes to secure them to the board. I had the JB Weld on hand and have used it for other projects in the past so I was familiar with it's working properties. It's a high-strength 'slow cure' non-conductive epoxy, but does have 'fillers' of some sort added for strength. Lacking toothpicks, I cut some matchsticks to make some nice pointy applicators. The pointy matchsticks also worked well to herd and remove excess epoxy and keep it from covering the solder pads so that I can still solder on leads to other jacks at some point. I was careful not to get epoxy in any of the openings in the jack housings, let everything dry overnight and reassembled this morning. I'll try it out tonight.
Is there a certain type of JB Weld (or another nonconductive epoxy) that is best for this strengthening? I've seen JB Weld described elsewhere as "nonconductive", but I've also seen one type that said it was good for soldering, and they all seem to contain "steel", which doesnt sound very nonconductive (or is that just a more general expression for very strong stuff) ??? Is it the Marine Weld type that you used?
'Plastic Welder' type(s) 2-part epoxy seems to have best chance of adhering to plastic jack and coated boards. Cleaning to-be-glued surfaces with a Q-tip moistened with pure +91% isopropyl alcohol is good prep practice.
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Is there a certain type of JB Weld (or another nonconductive epoxy) that is best for this strengthening? I've seen JB Weld described elsewhere as "nonconductive", but I've also seen one type that said it was good for soldering, and they all seem to contain "steel", which doesnt sound very nonconductive (or is that just a more general expression for very strong stuff) ??? Is it the Marine Weld type that you used?
I used the standard type JB Weld. I did consider the filler material's electrical properties, but the package says 'non-conductive' and a quick check with an ohm-meter on some cured material confirmed that for me. I'll defer to Guysonic's advice on the 'plastic welder' type perhaps being best suited to this application. I don't know if certain epoxy packaging states 'plastic welder' or not or if JB qualifies. The thing to be aware of with the standard JB weld I used is that it does tend to flow until it cures, so be carefull to keep it out of the jack openings and postition the project so you don't get an unfortunate drip forming after you have left it alone to cure. FWIW, my reinforced jacks on the replacement board are going strong, but I've been using a small right angle plug, been gentle with the jacks and taking the precautions discussed here and I haven't opened it up since to take a look.
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I prefer plastic weld on plastic. Epoxy on plastic doesn't always work well so using a product specifically formulated for plastic is the way to go. Plus your ability to do surface prep in this case is extremely limited. Most of the commonly available plastic weld is 5 minute and that means the working time is closer to 3... and that isn't much time. So you may want to mix 4 batches, one for each side.
As previously suggested, you probably want to leave the solder pads free of epoxy. That way there is a chance of it being resoldered if it gets torn off...
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Thanks to everyone for the advice - is there a particular brand of plastic weld epoxy someone would recommend, that is likely to be available in the UK (or I can get shipped to the UK)?
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I lost the left channel of the line input on my r09 at Greyfox this summer. Edirol ended up repairing the jack for no charge even though the deck was 3 months outside of warranty when I sent it in.
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thanks for the info tonyvt! +T
Good to know Edirol did the fix for you for no charge!
Having *not* visited this page in quite some time, and with my R-09 now nearing 15 months old, I'm starting to get a little more worried.........
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Got my R09 when they first came out (read "out of warranty"). Got a Core Sound Binaural microphone set ($270) at the same time. Got right angle plug on purchase. Had no problems until I went on vacation to Florida to record ocean sounds and other interesting sounds (live in Colorado so, going to the beach was an opportunity to get interesting sounds.) Lo and behold, I noticed my left channel was out. Thought I would get home and it would be an easy fix. LOL
Searched internet and found this site. Since it was out of warranty, I decided to open it up, using the great pictures and instructions on this site, and see if I can just re-solder the connections. That was a fruitless effort. Ended up taking the jack off and tried to solder a pigtail with a female 3.5mm connection on the other end. Another fruitless effort. (I don't have a micro-soldering station to make a good connection to the board.)
Next step was to call tech support to get my options for repairing the unit. They passed me to customer service. They told me $75/hr for repair service. If, after getting the estimate, I didn't want my unit serviced I would be charged $25.00. I told them I knew what the problem was, putting stress on the fact that it seemed to be a design flaw. The rep said that there was no record of my problem being a system wide problem, and if it was, I would of got an email. So, I asked how much a new board was. She quoted me $206.00.
I guess my next step is to contact the FTC and see if they could force the company to own up to this problem.
My line in jack is still viable, so instead of throwing good money after bad, I'll look into buying a mic preamp and really baby my R09. Anybody have any inexpensive options for a mic preamp?
Thanks in advance.
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Welcome to the board, sorry to hear about your troubles.
Out of curiosity, do your internal mics still work? Did you check to make certain that the line-in jack still works as well? I'd suggest checking that before ordering a preamp by sending a line signal from some other device (you will not be able to just plug the mics in there unless you use a battery box to power them). I ask that because there is some kind of switch mechanism that over-rides one input when the other is in use.. I can't remember which overrides which, but the removal of your mic-in jack could potentially screw with that.
Assuming the line in works fine, I'd then suggest epoxying the line-in jack down to the board and using a small right angle plug to head off damage to your remaining input.
I haven't used his preamps, but many users here have reported good results using one of Chris Church's pre's. They are small, affordable battery powered units available with 1/8" stereo inputs and outputs that will interface easily with your mics and the R-09's line input. He's a user on this board, drop him a PM.
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Got my R09 when they first came out (read "out of warranty").
Edirol told me they will fix the early units that are out of warranty for free. But once you open it up and try and repair, all bets are off.
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Welcome to the board, sorry to hear about your troubles.
Out of curiosity, do your internal mics still work? Did you check to make certain that the line-in jack still works as well? I'd suggest checking that before ordering a preamp by sending a line signal from some other device (you will not be able to just plug the mics in there unless you use a battery box to power them). I ask that because there is some kind of switch mechanism that over-rides one input when the other is in use.. I can't remember which overrides which, but the removal of your mic-in jack could potentially screw with that.
Assuming the line in works fine, I'd then suggest epoxying the line-in jack down to the board and using a small right angle plug to head off damage to your remaining input.
Thanks for your reply.
Good point on the internal mics. The line in jack is working (thank goodness). I'll epoxy that jack down before I use it again. Thanks for the tip on the preamp. I'll check into it.
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Got my R09 when they first came out (read "out of warranty").
Edirol told me they will fix the early units that are out of warranty for free. But once you open it up and try and repair, all bets are off.
They fixed mine out of warranty. I did open it up to check out the damage, decided there was no way I could do the repair myself and ended up sending it in 6 months later when I finally had a taping lull.
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curious how long it took Roland to fix your R-09? Hopefully they are quicker than the core sounds pl....
+T !!
They fixed mine out of warranty. I did open it up to check out the damage, decided there was no way I could do the repair myself and ended up sending it in 6 months later when I finally had a taping lull.
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curious how long it took Roland to fix your R-09? Hopefully they are quicker than the core sounds pl....
+T !!
They fixed mine out of warranty. I did open it up to check out the damage, decided there was no way I could do the repair myself and ended up sending it in 6 months later when I finally had a taping lull.
It was pretty quick as I recall, maybe a week to 10 days. ymmv.
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Has this problem with lousy jack quality been determined one way or another to be an inherent defect or the fluke of a poor assembly line run?
I just bought an R-09 which I have not yet used, but I'd have no problem selling it for a different recorder.
On the other hand, exactly how do I open the unit to use Epoxy to reinforce the input jacks?
Thank you.
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the mic-input on my r-09(bought may 2007) has problems. right channel doesn't work anymore(display says it is constant at peak level) . Gonna bring it in for repairs under warranty next week as i need it this saturday(taping line-in obviously then). the store said it would take approx. two weeks to get it back.
question is: do they thoroughly fix it or will i have the same problem some time after the repair? will they just fix the mic-in or also reinforce the line-in while they're at it?
i haven't even used it alot, always been carefull not to put stress on the inputs :(
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Open it up and epoxy the jacks.
dissasembly- http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,65175.msg906758.html#msg906758 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,65175.msg906758.html#msg906758)
and here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5540afe7efef79405c373087ca29d158 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5540afe7efef79405c373087ca29d158)
epoxying- http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71160.180.html (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71160.180.html)
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I was hoping they(edirol/roland) would have finally come to their senses and would put in the right jacks and glueing them down when doing repairs...
I guess i will have to become more skilful when it comes back from repairs and do that epoxying...
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Usually it's the left channel that lets go first. Make sure it's NOT your input gear that's to blame for the right channel problems.
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i've tried with two different batteryboxes and two different mics, all the same problem with the mic-input...
line-in works fine and internal mics are also fine, that should eliminate my mics and/or batt.boxes as the problem...
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fwiw folks, i've got some very small low profile plastic right angle stereo 3.5mm plugs. they provide strain relief ...much more so than any of my neutrik / switchcraft ends.
they are inexpensive, so the cables will be cheap to construct / sell.
ping me if anyone would like to try one.
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sent my out of warranty R09 back a few days ago with one channel out. I'm interested in discovering whether they fix it for free (if not, my credit card extends the warranty to 2 years, so if I get my paperwork in order...) or disqualify me for opening it up and laying small electrical tape on the record LEDs before they released firmware to solve that problem. I'll let you know.
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so um, why didn't you open this back up and remove that piece of tape before sending it in ??
(coming from someone with same piece of tape over said led, but has't had to get my r-09 repaired yet)
or disqualify me for opening it up and laying small electrical tape on the record LEDs before they released firmware to solve that problem.
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or disqualify me for opening it up and laying small electrical tape on the record LEDs before they released firmware to solve that problem.
I have never understood why the record LED is seen as something so problematic that it requires opening the unit up. As previously mentioned, I have always used a 1" square piece of permacel gaffer tape over the cluster of buttons. It covers the LED and I can easily operate the buttons. I have used the same piece of tape for over a year.
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or disqualify me for opening it up and laying small electrical tape on the record LEDs before they released firmware to solve that problem.
I have never understood why the record LED is seen as something so problematic that it requires opening the unit up. As previously mentioned, I have always used a 1" square piece of permacel gaffer tape over the cluster of buttons. It covers the LED and I can easily operate the buttons. I have used the same piece of tape for over a year.
Same. Except my 1" square of permacel is on the clear plastic cover of the bodyglove case instead of the switch itself. A second square of tape keeps the buttons on the back from being moved.
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Just bumping this old chestnut, as my R09 now has the dreaded input jack issue. Got back last night from the Earth / Sabbath Assembly gig to find much trouble in the LH channel. I guess I felt it was always going to happen, but you hope it never will. Wonder if it's worth repairing it.
Now that much time has passed, has anyone recently been successful in getting their R09 repaired free (or low cost) by the manufacturer - despite being well outside the warranty period? It's not as if they can say that they are not aware of this problem. I have read lots of $150-200 repair stories on here and I won't bother if that's the case.
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After finding out if Edirol will repair de R-09 fo a reasonable fee, what are you planning to do?
Why don't you try repairing it yourself?
I do not own an Edirol, just a Tascam, but it's not too difficult to solve the problem. The problem is to find the right part and/or a better one, preferably a 1/8" screw-type socket. But I don't know if it will fit.
Another option, which are tougher, more durable and more reliable connectors are 1/4" jacks and mini-XLRs, but they would require some external adaptors, cabled or fixed externally to the Edirol.
Just some thoughts.
Carlos
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as far as who can fix this outside of Edirol, sure there are DIY'ers out here, but wanted to also mention that both Chris Church and Sound Professionals (another Chris) have mentioned they can do this work, for cheap that is (less than $50). No offense to Mr Church, but you may get a better turnaround time with the SP folks
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It's a difficult repair. The damage tears/lifts tiny traces on the printed circuit board. Edirol simply replaces the entire board. Open it up and take a look, maybe you will get lucky and the damage is not bad and you have excellent microscopic SMD soldering skills. If not then just epoxy reinforce the remaining good input jack to the board and switch to using that one.
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Thanks for the replies guys, but I'm not sure I'm ready for the keyhole surgery soldering. I had read that once it starts lifting, you are probably stuffed. I am buying a new recorder anyway, but was kind of hoping Edirol might have seen the error of their ways and would repair it for free / cheap. Being in the UK precludes some of the other suggestions. Been to busy at work to even think straight today, so will contact them when I have time.
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Hahaha....we bump into each other again Jamroom!!!
Just had a major fall out with Roland.....
Bought R-09hr two years ago
A year ago it was returned because of a connection issue with line in
It was returned with a note saying "No fault found but have re soldered line in/mic in and headphone socket as precaution"
Now a year on from being "repaired" it has started again, it had shown one or two signs over the past year of not being right.
Contacted Roland who now have no interest in helping me other than to suggest a freelance engineer....Like I was going to send it back to the guy
that couldn't find the fault in the first place!!!
Apart from the screws on the side of the unit do I need to unscrew any others to open her up?
Thanks
David.
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Bought R-09hr two years ago
A year ago it was returned because of a connection issue with line in
It was returned with a note saying "No fault found but have re soldered line in/mic in and headphone socket as precaution"
Now a year on from being "repaired" it has started again, it had shown one or two signs over the past year of not being right.
The R-09 (and a certain production batch mostly) is the one known to have input jack issues because the jack is soldered onto the board, whereas in the R-09HR it is mechanically mounted to the board. I can't recall hearing about anyone having input jack issues with the R-09HR, although certainly any jack in any device could develop problems with time and use. in any case, the warranty for the R-09/R-09HR is a year, so the fact that they fixed it the first time without being covered by warranty (unless you got it in right before it ended) is good service from Roland. Returning it again, two years after purchasing it, they really don't need to do anything. You could ask Chris Church or Sound Pro to try re-soldering it on, if that is indeed the issue with it.
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Bought R-09hr two years ago
A year ago it was returned because of a connection issue with line in
It was returned with a note saying "No fault found but have re soldered line in/mic in and headphone socket as precaution"
Now a year on from being "repaired" it has started again, it had shown one or two signs over the past year of not being right.
The R-09 (and a certain production batch mostly) is the one known to have input jack issues because the jack is soldered onto the board, whereas in the R-09HR it is mechanically mounted to the board. I can't recall hearing about anyone having input jack issues with the R-09HR, although certainly any jack in any device could develop problems with time and use. in any case, the warranty for the R-09/R-09HR is a year, so the fact that they fixed it the first time without being covered by warranty (unless you got it in right before it ended) is good service from Roland. Returning it again, two years after purchasing it, they really don't need to do anything. You could ask Chris Church or Sound Pro to try re-soldering it on, if that is indeed the issue with it.
My concern was that it was not detected when it was originally sent back, I appreciate that after 2 years it's out of warranty but it's my belief that as stated by their engineer "no fault was found" and therefore if no fault was found then it could not have been repaired.
Not sure about the warranty issue, the retailer I bought it from gave a two year warranty....makes no odds, it's being looked at tomorrow so I'll see what this guy says.....
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Funnily enough - as posted elsewhere, my first recording on my new R05 has the same fault! Unless I am the most unlucky man in the world, it is hopefully my interconnect, rather than mics or preamp.
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Hmm..
My R09 has been OK since at least 2007 but now also has the jack issue.
I removed the two scres at the bottom and that part opens up now.
At the top stuff is still holding together.
What is the right way to open the casing of the R09? ???
(I went over this thread but may have overlooked...)
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It's a little tricky. You must remove the back panel. That will expose a third screw. The back panel is held on with adhesive tape near the top, and tabs at the bottom. Gently pry it from the top - you'll even see a couple of spots to insert a tool.
With those screws removed, you can split the case. Look carefully at how and where the battery door is held in place, because it, along with the hinge pin, will drop out. The buttons on the sides, along with their covers, will also be free to roam about the cabin..
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Thanks.
Got it open.
Saw that one of the traces of line in had lifted. :(
It lasted close to 4 years with a few great recording moments.
New R09 is 299 euros.
M10 is 279. ???
Anybody in the Netherlands area wants the parts?
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Thanks.
Got it open.
Saw that one of the traces of line in had lifted. :(
It lasted close to 4 years with a few great recording moments.
New R09 is 299 euros.
M10 is 279. ???
Anybody in the Netherlands area wants the parts?
Probably repairable by someone with the right expertise.
That price for a new R09 is insane! :o
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Thanks.
Got it open.
Saw that one of the traces of line in had lifted. :(
It lasted close to 4 years with a few great recording moments.
New R09 is 299 euros.
M10 is 279. ???
Anybody in the Netherlands area wants the parts?
Probably repairable by someone with the right expertise.
That price for a new R09 is insane! :o
Yeah, thats PRICEY for a frickin R09 :P
Sony PCM-M10 is DEF the way to go for doing 2 channel work :)