Topic: Problems with DAW monitors

[Chuck]

I've been having this problem with my playback system for a while now and need some input. 

I mix using my DAW, older Cambridge Audio stereo amp and Tannoy Reveal (unpowered, the purplish) monitors and an integrated sub-woofer. I notice that that I hear the hi-hat much more on the right side, than on the left. Even with a true mono source! There is more sizzle on the right than on the left. So, I swapped the speakers, left to right, thinking maybe one of the tweeters is going bad. Same problem. More sizzle on the right than on the left. I switched amps and tried every combination of speakers and amps and still the problem persists. The right side sizzles more than the left.

So, I started to think that there may be a reflection problem, so I tried putting a blanket over the reflective surfaces near the speakers, but even that doesn't fix the problem.

So, my question is... have any of you experienced anything like this with your playback system? My next course of action is going to be moving my DAW around in the room. Even though it took me months to arrive at the current position, because of bass anomalies in other locations in the room. I've just never experienced anything like this before and need some input as to what else to do? I've had bass issues, so I know how room placement can affect the sound, I just haven't experienced that problem with high frequencies.

Maybe before I move the whole DAW around in the room I should move the speaker system into another room and see if it still persists?
Maybe my right ear is better than my left???

[kirk97132]

I don't read where you swapped speaker cables and/or input cables from computer to amp?  And I would at least try it to eliminate it as a source of your problem.

[page]

2 things:

1) I agree, eliminate everything you can before rearranging stuff. That said, I think it's a reflection. I've had this when listening at work depending on where I put my coffee cup (hard surface). Move it about quarter of an inch in any direction (or move my chair) and I don't catch a sharp uptick anymore. I had a similar problem the last time I had speakers, I had to rearrange the room to get a perfect mono sound at various tones.
2) I have my hearing tested almost annually now and while my hearing is still technically very very good**, based on my test last year, I've lost a couple db around the 1khz range in only one ear. Under normal conditions (so anything above a quiet whisper), I'm pressed to tell you which one it is and the doc didn't tell me. We'll see if I get the same/worse results next time. 

**Statistically that is, my wife complains that I can't hear her. 

[Chuck]

Yeah, I'm at work now, and my playback here is much better.
I've tried moving the speakers small amounts.
One more thing is that if I lean into the middle of the speakers a few inches (3-4) it gets better, but isn't fixed 100%.

I have swapped cables & swapped speakers etc... that didn't fix it.
I may have to do the mirror trick and have my wife go and hold a pillow up at suspect reflection areas while I sit in the mixing position.

[stevetoney]

Doesn't address your issue, but I only master through headphones and I want phones that are as transparent as possible to provide an unflavored rendition of what I'm mastering.

[Jimna]

Doesn't address your issue, but I only master through headphones and I want phones that are as transparent as possible to provide an unflavored rendition of what I'm mastering.

thats your opinion for sure.  I HATE HP for mastering, no image.   ...but ultimately has nothing to do with Chuck's issues, and makes me wonder if its your goal to post in every thread?

[stevetoney]

...but ultimately has nothing to do with Chuck's issues, and makes me wonder if its your goal to post in every thread?

Yeah that's it Jim.  Real nice. 

On topic, no image in headphones?  I'm not gonna argue, but revisit this statement after you've listened to 'Are You Experienced'?

[Chuck]

Doesn't address your issue, but I only master through headphones and I want phones that are as transparent as possible to provide an unflavored rendition of what I'm mastering.

thats your opinion for sure.  I HATE HP for mastering, no image.   ...but ultimately has nothing to do with Chuck's issues, and makes me wonder if its your goal to post in every thread?

 


Sorry, I had to laugh at that...

As far as the headphones go, yeah, I check everything after on headphones. Like Jim, I don't like them for mixing or mastering. I prefer speakers.

[pimpy_magoo]

Jim is correct. Mastering with headphones is like showering with a raincoat. With headphones you cannot hear anything close to a true soundstage and testing for correct phase relationship is impossible, because there is no crosstalk between the channels. "Are you experienced" isnt a good example at all, because that was not mixed for a true sound stage. That has hard-panned effects all over it so it sounds trippy. It wasnt meant to sound realistic at all. That is not stereo imaging. Stereo imaging is building a realistic sound stage on the recording. Best you not argue that point, because you are wrong.

[stevetoney]

^ In my original response, I wasn't really espousing the merits of headphone mastering over speaker mastering.  When I read about Chuck's original issue where he hadn't been able to isolate the cause of the speaker imbalance, it occurred to me that I don't have that issue since I do my mastering through my phones and, in spite of Jimbo's barbed response, felt there was pertinence to the input since the imbalance wouldn't be an issue with phones, nor would the coloring that Chuck spoke of as being an issue.  I don't have good stereo speakers so I don't mix through airwaves.

Regarding the imaging discussion, I understand what you're saying in the context of crosstalk...although I don't necessarily concur with the implication that imaging isn't heard through phones.  Certainly some phasing issues wouldn't be heard through phones however, but then again I hear wind phase issues alot more through phones...whereas through speakers wind phasing can sometimes get masked.

[Jimna]

^ In my original response, I wasn't really espousing the merits of headphone mastering over speaker mastering.  When I read about Chuck's original issue where he hadn't been able to isolate the cause of the speaker imbalance, it occurred to me that I don't have that issue since I do my mastering through my phones and, in spite of Jimbo's barbed response, felt there was pertinence to the input since the imbalance wouldn't be an issue with phones, nor would the coloring that Chuck spoke of as being an issue.

well it would continue to be an issue if Chucks problem is the source device/IC/software/ect, in that case no matter if its HP or speakers the problem will persist.  The point is if your not helping with a solution to his problem and the origin of the thread, why pipe in?   

[stevetoney]

well it would continue to be an issue if Chucks problem is the source device/IC/software/ect, in that case no matter if its HP or speakers the problem will persist.  The point is if your not helping with a solution to his problem and the origin of the thread, why pipe in?

Because if Chucks problem isn't the source device and was the speakers, phones could help, although it's a fairly obvious comment.

[page]

well it would continue to be an issue if Chucks problem is the source device/IC/software/ect, in that case no matter if its HP or speakers the problem will persist.  The point is if your not helping with a solution to his problem and the origin of the thread, why pipe in?

Umm, because if Chucks problem ISN'T the source device and was the speakers, phones WOULD help solve the problem. 

It would tell him that it's something after the last stage where the headphone signal splits off of the speaker out signal. After that placement or speakers are still both suspects if you use headphones to tell that or not. Helpful information, but not an end-all answer.

I could be snarky and point out some falacies of logic on both sides here, but this is Chuck's thread about his problem, not how headphones offer a different view of the music... 

[Gutbucket]

Sorry for pushing farther off topic, Chuck!

..but I can't resist. On mastering through headphones- I agree that it's always been highly problematic.  However, I've seen the real world outside of the cave, and even monitoring on decent speakers is little more than shadows projected on the wall in comparison.  I should have posted the part below in this thread instead of this one earlier today.

The true magic box really does exist.  I've heard it setup with a custom calibration, by runing through a test procedure in the room to be emulated, measured by placing mics in my ears and looking directly at each speaker in turn as a convolution test signal swooped each speaker in the sytem and recorded my personal ear respose.  Made headphone listening absolutely indistinguishable from listening to the speaker setup in the room where it was measured.  Once you measure a room+system you can take it with you and switch between them.  Somewhat over your budget at $3360, but that includes the required Stax headphones plus amp along with the magic box- http://www.smyth-research.com/products.html

I'm completely convinced I could do anything, check anything and listen just as critically using the above headphone-based system as I could on the speaker + room monitioring setup that the original measurement was taken in.  I don't say that lightly and would not belive it if I had not done the demo myself, and also watched as others took the headphones on and off their heads (speakers auto switching on with the headphones off, and vice-versa) while they absolutely swore that the headphones were never on and they were listening to the speakers the entire time.

If I was to get a hold of one of these and rent an hour of time at an excellently setup mastering studio to run my calibration I could, in effect, take that professional monitoring system home with me.  I could never hope to achive a similar level quality in a typical home studio monitoring situation.  I will own this or something like it someday (or figure out how to duplicate some of the functionality, given enough porcessing convolution power and the right methodology).  I'm totally convinced this thing is the holy grail of monitoring. I get all excited just thinking about it.

[Chuck]

So, I'm pretty sure I figured it out.
I have my monitors on a heavy particle board riser that I built for my mixing desk. I used to have markings on it that tell me where to place the monitors after I move them. It turns out that the right speaker was a couple of inches closer than it should have been after I changed some things around on my desk.
Also, I had moved some stuff under my desk that placed me farther right, and off center from where I usually listen.

It's hard for me to believe that that little change had such a big effect on what I was hearing. But, a got out a tape measure and re-plotted everything. I made some new markings and replaced the monitors on the riser and the problem has gone away...