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Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 156?

Audio Technica CP8201
2 (50%)
Hosa MIT 156
2 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Author Topic: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?  (Read 10396 times)

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Offline Chuck

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2006, 01:00:54 PM »
I wonder what the middle ground is between the $12 AT CP8201's and the $100+ Jensens?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2006, 01:04:11 PM »
Cheap transformers do not have the low end response or the high end response of good transformers, there are no shortcuts.

Im not suggesting that cheaper transformers perform anywhere near as well as more expensive transformers.  What I'm saying is that as an intermediate solution (until I could save up more money to buy a very nice pre-amp), the cheap solution was to buy a cheap set of transformers, and that was good enough for me, at the time.

The one companies I did some work for, did not just take my word for it, they listened them selves decided that the $30 transformers were not acceptable and went with the $150 transformers, in a project that required 128 of them. I am just putting my two cents in rant over :)

that's exactly my point.  the company you worked with had to decide on their own.  they decided that $30 transformers were not acceptable and went with more expensive ones.  I'm only suggesting that someone try out the cheaper ones because he/she may find that the cheaper ones are acceptable to him/her.  and if they aren't acceptable and don't sound good, you are not out a lot of money.

Respectfully, Jason we are not just talking about better sound as in a subjective thing, like the fun arguments that we all have about what cable is better. We are talking about frequency response. Cheap transformers have a response of say 50hz to 14k with in 3db! that's pretty bad, good transformers will do 20hz to 20khz +- .5 db! Why would you want to limit your frequency response?  It's bad enough that your mics already do that, why aggravate the situation by using substandard transformers that have such bad bandwidth? Never mind the poor distortion characteristics.

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Offline Digital Quality

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2006, 01:10:00 PM »
Another big problem that comes up with transformers is RF rejection. I would think that for field use good shielding can be just as important as freq/phase response.
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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2006, 01:23:50 PM »
Another big problem that comes up with transformers is RF rejection. I would think that for field use good shielding can be just as important as freq/phase response.

In the case of these small in line transformers, its not a big deal because they are virtually Faraday shielded by the metal cases that they are housed in, but for internal transformers inside preamps or any device that generates a strong emf or emi field they should be Faraday shielded (metal can type) This is one of the reasons microphone companies can get away with not having to shield the transformers they use. Because the housings are made of metal and for the most part there is no emf or emi fields being generated from with in the mic it self.
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2006, 02:02:17 PM »
Respectfully, Jason we are not just talking about better sound as in a subjective thing, like the fun arguments that we all have about what cable is better. We are talking about frequency response. Cheap transformers have a response of say 50hz to 14k with in 3db! that's pretty bad, good transformers will do 20hz to 20khz +- .5 db! Why would you want to limit your frequency response?  It's bad enough that your mics already do that, why aggravate the situation by using substandard transformers that have such bad bandwidth? Never mind the poor distortion characteristics.

Chris, you are quite knowledgeable when it comes to tranformers, and I understand that the differences between cheap and expensive tranformers are measureable, and noticeable when listening to them as well.  I can hear the differences too.  obviously, as you keep pointing out, it is not ideal to run the audio through a 50Hz-14kHz +/- 3dB transformer.  But, usually, when people on this forum ask for transformer recommendations, their personal budget is driving a lot of their decisions.  If someone was going to buy two $150 transformers for a total of $300, personally, I'd recommend buying a cheap pre-amp (used sound devices mp-2 can be had for $350-$400).

So, while you are telling someone to stay away completely from cheap transformers, I am simply suggesting that the cheap ones might be a reasonable solution that fits their budget.  obviously, it's not ideal and it's not something that anyone would choose unless their budget was restrictive and didn't allow for more expensive options.  I'm not arguing with any of your facts, or even suggesting that the cheap transformers are the end-all be-all.  I'm just saying that it might be a good solution for some people.

thanks for the interesting discussion,
Jason

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2006, 02:11:35 PM »
Respectfully, Jason we are not just talking about better sound as in a subjective thing, like the fun arguments that we all have about what cable is better. We are talking about frequency response. Cheap transformers have a response of say 50hz to 14k with in 3db! that's pretty bad, good transformers will do 20hz to 20khz +- .5 db! Why would you want to limit your frequency response?  It's bad enough that your mics already do that, why aggravate the situation by using substandard transformers that have such bad bandwidth? Never mind the poor distortion characteristics.

Chris, you are quite knowledgeable when it comes to tranformers, and I understand that the differences between cheap and expensive tranformers are measureable, and noticeable when listening to them as well.  I can hear the differences too.  obviously, as you keep pointing out, it is not ideal to run the audio through a 50Hz-14kHz +/- 3dB transformer.  But, usually, when people on this forum ask for transformer recommendations, their personal budget is driving a lot of their decisions.  If someone was going to buy two $150 transformers for a total of $300, personally, I'd recommend buying a cheap pre-amp (used sound devices mp-2 can be had for $350-$400).

So, while you are telling someone to stay away completely from cheap transformers, I am simply suggesting that the cheap ones might be a reasonable solution that fits their budget.  obviously, it's not ideal and it's not something that anyone would choose unless their budget was restrictive and didn't allow for more expensive options.  I'm not arguing with any of your facts, or even suggesting that the cheap transformers are the end-all be-all.  I'm just saying that it might be a good solution for some people.

thanks for the interesting discussion,
Jason


Here is a transformer for $45.00 US you do not need to spend $150 you can buy them much cheaper from this company :)

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Offline larrysellers

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2006, 02:14:28 PM »
Respectfully, Jason we are not just talking about better sound as in a subjective thing, like the fun arguments that we all have about what cable is better. We are talking about frequency response. Cheap transformers have a response of say 50hz to 14k with in 3db! that's pretty bad, good transformers will do 20hz to 20khz +- .5 db! Why would you want to limit your frequency response?  It's bad enough that your mics already do that, why aggravate the situation by using substandard transformers that have such bad bandwidth? Never mind the poor distortion characteristics.

Chris, you are quite knowledgeable when it comes to tranformers, and I understand that the differences between cheap and expensive tranformers are measureable, and noticeable when listening to them as well.  I can hear the differences too.  obviously, as you keep pointing out, it is not ideal to run the audio through a 50Hz-14kHz +/- 3dB transformer.  But, usually, when people on this forum ask for transformer recommendations, their personal budget is driving a lot of their decisions.  If someone was going to buy two $150 transformers for a total of $300, personally, I'd recommend buying a cheap pre-amp (used sound devices mp-2 can be had for $350-$400).

So, while you are telling someone to stay away completely from cheap transformers, I am simply suggesting that the cheap ones might be a reasonable solution that fits their budget.  obviously, it's not ideal and it's not something that anyone would choose unless their budget was restrictive and didn't allow for more expensive options.  I'm not arguing with any of your facts, or even suggesting that the cheap transformers are the end-all be-all.  I'm just saying that it might be a good solution for some people.

thanks for the interesting discussion,
Jason

Agreed. It is the same as 1st generation MD lossy recordings vs. lossless DAT, etc. It is all in what you can put in to satisfy your expectations of the output. I think this may have wandered into ideal scenarios territory instead of the original comparison of the referenced xfrm's. Still very interesting stuff.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2006, 02:17:17 PM »
Here is a transformer for $45.00 US you do not need to spend $150 you can buy them much cheaper from this company :)

Unfortunately, the component part doesn't help someone with a limited budget who lacks the knowledge, skills, and/or desire to learn how to plop that little sucker into an appropriate box/housing/cable to use with their existing gear.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2006, 02:18:34 PM »
Respectfully, Jason we are not just talking about better sound as in a subjective thing, like the fun arguments that we all have about what cable is better. We are talking about frequency response. Cheap transformers have a response of say 50hz to 14k with in 3db! that's pretty bad, good transformers will do 20hz to 20khz +- .5 db! Why would you want to limit your frequency response?  It's bad enough that your mics already do that, why aggravate the situation by using substandard transformers that have such bad bandwidth? Never mind the poor distortion characteristics.

Chris, you are quite knowledgeable when it comes to tranformers, and I understand that the differences between cheap and expensive tranformers are measureable, and noticeable when listening to them as well.  I can hear the differences too.  obviously, as you keep pointing out, it is not ideal to run the audio through a 50Hz-14kHz +/- 3dB transformer.  But, usually, when people on this forum ask for transformer recommendations, their personal budget is driving a lot of their decisions.  If someone was going to buy two $150 transformers for a total of $300, personally, I'd recommend buying a cheap pre-amp (used sound devices mp-2 can be had for $350-$400).

So, while you are telling someone to stay away completely from cheap transformers, I am simply suggesting that the cheap ones might be a reasonable solution that fits their budget.  obviously, it's not ideal and it's not something that anyone would choose unless their budget was restrictive and didn't allow for more expensive options.  I'm not arguing with any of your facts, or even suggesting that the cheap transformers are the end-all be-all.  I'm just saying that it might be a good solution for some people.

thanks for the interesting discussion,
Jason

Agreed. It is the same as 1st generation MD lossy recordings vs. lossless DAT, etc. It is all in what you can put in to satisfy your expectations of the output. I think this may have wandered into ideal scenarios territory instead of the original comparison of the referenced xfrm's. Still very interesting stuff.

I dont think spending $100 on a pair of good transformers is that big of a deal you guys spend that on cables in a heart beat. :)
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2006, 02:20:57 PM »
I dont think spending $100 on a pair of good transformers is that big of a deal you guys spend that on cables in a heart beat. :)

For those with a sizable budget, no.  But the whole point is that those who are considering line transformers probably have a very small budget, since they blew most of their cash on mics, and are simply biding their time until they scrap more cash together to put more money into their gain stage.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2006, 02:21:21 PM »
Here is a transformer for $45.00 US you do not need to spend $150 you can buy them much cheaper from this company :)

Unfortunately, the component part doesn't help someone with a limited budget who lacks the knowledge, skills, and/or desire to learn how to plop that little sucker into an appropriate box/housing/cable to use with their existing gear.

I know, but its not that hard to build, it you have an input and an output. You don't need to know much put a pair in a box and wire the correct wires to the correct terminals, Hell the company would even tell you what bypass caps and how to do it. That was my whole point anyone can do this.

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Offline kuuan

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2006, 06:26:58 AM »
Wow Chris, thank's a lot for the sowter hint!
Me being a newbee and not understanding what a transformer does must try to make my posting short since I do not want to highchack this interesting thread.
You may remember I had built my own preamp, you had helped me with it at this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=71782.0;all
I am quite happy with my preamp, it's gain 90% turned up and '0' gain on my iRiver H120 gives me a stronger and much cleaner signal than near to max. gain on the the iRiver without preamp. However I still find the signal weak and would love it to be stronger.

Could adding transformers be a solution? - even though my set up is unballanced?
If so, where can I learn how to connect it?

 
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2006, 09:38:47 AM »
Wow Chris, thank's a lot for the sowter hint!
Me being a newbee and not understanding what a transformer does must try to make my posting short since I do not want to highchack this interesting thread.
You may remember I had built my own preamp, you had helped me with it at this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=71782.0;all
I am quite happy with my preamp, it's gain 90% turned up and '0' gain on my iRiver H120 gives me a stronger and much cleaner signal than near to max. gain on the the iRiver without preamp. However I still find the signal weak and would love it to be stronger.

Could adding transformers be a solution? - even though my set up is unballanced?
If so, where can I learn how to connect it?

 

What you would need is a 1:5 ratio line in transformer that would be 10k secondary  to 10k primary ( this depends on your input impedance) but I would assume a unbalanced preamp input to be somewhere in that area. Check out that company in the UK I know they make something that will work you want A- low distortion and B- at least 1:3 ratio this means for every mv input you get 3x the mv output. this will give you your boost. But I should warn you if you go to a higher ratio you might find your preamps input overloads so you have to be careful. The other nice thing about a transformer input is great common mode rejection *less inducted noise*


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Offline kuuan

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2006, 09:54:48 AM »

What you would need is a 1:5 ratio line in transformer that would be 10k secondary  to 10k primary ( this depends on your input impedance) but I would assume a unbalanced preamp input to be somewhere in that area. Check out that company in the UK I know they make something that will work you want A- low distortion and B- at least 1:3 ratio this means for every mv input you get 3x the mv output. this will give you your boost. But I should warn you if you go to a higher ratio you might find your preamps input overloads so you have to be careful. The other nice thing about a transformer input is great common mode rejection *less inducted noise*


Chris Church


yeah-iha, great!
checked the site and I am thinking that the model of which you had posted the photo is exactly the one I should get then, yes?
and do transformers need power, or in other words will the 9 Volt battery with which my preamp is powered give enough juice?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transformer preference... Audio Technica CP8201 vs Hosa MIT 176?
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2006, 03:59:23 PM »

What you would need is a 1:5 ratio line in transformer that would be 10k secondary  to 10k primary ( this depends on your input impedance) but I would assume a unbalanced preamp input to be somewhere in that area. Check out that company in the UK I know they make something that will work you want A- low distortion and B- at least 1:3 ratio this means for every mv input you get 3x the mv output. this will give you your boost. But I should warn you if you go to a higher ratio you might find your preamps input overloads so you have to be careful. The other nice thing about a transformer input is great common mode rejection *less inducted noise*


Chris Church




yeah-iha, great!
checked the site and I am thinking that the model of which you had posted the photo is exactly the one I should get then, yes?
and do transformers need power, or in other words will the 9 Volt battery with which my preamp is powered give enough juice?



Transformers are passive devices, however you do get what is called insertion loss, this is because the transfer function of a transformer takes up energy. So some input power is wasted, typically .5 db to 3.5 db of loss from the use of a transformer. The good news is the ratio can more then make up for that. The transformer I listed I think, is 600 ohm primary 10k secondary. You want a 10k pri and a 10k sec unless you want to balanced the input of your preamp and use an external phantom supply.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 12:06:24 PM by Church-Audio »
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