Topic: Portable Recorder for Piano

[aryolkary]

Hi, I'd like to know your experiences with portable recorders to use mostly for piano. Also, any suggestions about mic placement, settings, etc.

From what I've heard I like Olympus LS-10, Sony PCM-D50, and Edirol R-09HR best. I didn't like Zoom H2 compared to them. I like a brighter sound, so the LS-10 samples were nice, however I'm not sure about its bass roll off being a problem compared to a safer bet: R-09HR. I say safe because that's how it feels to me after listening the official samples, and watching the video:
http://www.edirol.net/downloads/en/R-09HR/R-09HR_Sample.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00HMlZ4AIjo&feature=related

To me, that sounds amazing. I totally dig that level of quality. However, I will probably never achieve it because of lack of such a great piano and acoustics.

I have heard and read from these places, besides Amazon reviews, reading other sites, searching here, etc.:
http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_interviewing/200703_recorder_reviews/
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/audio/portable-recorder-comparison/
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-reviews.html

From these samples, I find the LS-10 a nice rendition of both cello and piano:
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-sound-samples.html
Comparing the LS-10 to R-09HR Speech sample (only available), I can see how the LS-10 sounds brighter. The Sony PCM-D1 is no doubts the most articulate one, but I can't afford it.

Piano frequencies go down to 27hz, however the lowest notes aren't played as much. Anyway, the bass roll off might be a losing point comparing to the Edirol. If all I had to do was EQ the recording to get the bass a little louder, were that necessary, then that's fine with me.

I don't find a problem the 2gb file limit. The price difference (285$ for LS-10 and 330$ for the R-09HR) is justified since a wireless remote for the LS-10 would cost at least $60.
My intention is to use the built-in mics: pocket portable, not portable with bag or carrying case, etc. I have no problems recording always in 24/48 or 24/96. This is for recording my playing mainly.

Anyway, this thread is not only a request for advice between the Edirol and Olympus, but also about your experiences in general when it comes to recording piano, both upgrights and grands, in different room sizes, editing the raw file with effects, reverb, etc. (all of which I don't know, and will probably learn slowly with time).

This is a very nice forum, lots of information and feedback.
Thanks, wish you well.
Ary

[guysonic]

If intending to use the deck's internal mics, likely you'll get more satisfaction recording piano with the wider bandwidth performance of the R-09HR omni mics over the limited LS-10 and D50 directional type mic performance.

Too many unknown variables of piano type, live ambient working conditions, and end use requirements of master recordings to make useful mic placement and other settings suggestions. 

However, use 24bit/44.1K or 88.2K wav mode if going to CD after editing, full manual level settings (no auto/limiter), use mic in LOW sensitivity setting if possible, and no bass reduction is generally good tact.

[John Willett]

If it's a grand piano you do really need good omni mics..

Directional mics lose the bottom end - and it *is* obvious.

I did a test once with an MS pair of Sennheiser MKH 30/40 and spaced MKH 20 omnis - the omnis obviously captured the full bottom end of the piano and made the others sound thin in comparison.

So whatever your choice (and your shortlist is exactly the same as my shortlist) use it with external omni mics.

I went for the Olympus LS-10 as I use a NAGRA VI for my main recording and wanted the Olympus as a small pocket recorder.

For your use, I think you will find the Sony PCM-D50 the best choice.

If you can go larger - then the Fostex FR-2LE would be the best option (until I bought the NAGRA VI I used teh original Fostex FR-2 for piano recording).

I hope this helps.

[aryolkary]

If intending to use the deck's internal mics, likely you'll get more satisfaction recording piano with the wider bandwidth performance of the R-09HR omni mics over the limited LS-10 and D50 directional type mic performance.

Too many unknown variables of piano type, live ambient working conditions, and end use requirements of master recordings to make useful mic placement and other settings suggestions. 

However, use 24bit/44.1K or 88.2K wav mode if going to CD after editing, full manual level settings (no auto/limiter), use mic in LOW sensitivity setting if possible, and no bass reduction is generally good tact.

Hi guysonic, thanks for your advice. I appreciate your comment, didn't know about the omni vs directional issue.

If it's a grand piano you do really need good omni mics..

Directional mics lose the bottom end - and it *is* obvious.

I did a test once with an MS pair of Sennheiser MKH 30/40 and spaced MKH 20 omnis - the omnis obviously captured the full bottom end of the piano and made the others sound thin in comparison.

So whatever your choice (and your shortlist is exactly the same as my shortlist) use it with external omni mics.

I went for the Olympus LS-10 as I use a NAGRA VI for my main recording and wanted the Olympus as a small pocket recorder.

For your use, I think you will find the Sony PCM-D50 the best choice.

If you can go larger - then the Fostex FR-2LE would be the best option (until I bought the NAGRA VI I used teh original Fostex FR-2 for piano recording).

I hope this helps.

Hi John Willett, thanks for your suggestions too.
The intention is pocket sized recorder. It is not for putting the recording into an album. A demo could be though. When the time comes to record seriously, it's gonna be laptop+soundcard+condensers or going to a studio. For every day use, performance comparison, improvisations, exercise comparison, I want something very easy and portable, pocketable and efficient, such as the mentioned models.
I'd like to know a little bit more about why the Sony would be the best choice over the other 2 models, in contrast to guysonic's recommendation.

Also, I ordered already the Olympus, but since I don't live in US I'll receive it in 1 month aprox. I could also order the Edirol in the future and compare the two. But, I wouldn't go as far as ordering every single model to compare and keep the best one. I can sell the Olympus if I don't like it, I won't lose money (unless the unit comes broken).

I have an upright at home, and I intend to buy a baby grand in half a year, not sooner. The recorder would be mostly used at home, with the lowly upgright, but also whenever I can go to a place with a nice grand or baby grand to practise. Also I will use the recorder for sanskrit lessons (as soon as I get the recorder), and hindu singing lessons (in 6-8 months when I start). I will rarely use it to record concerts, as I don't go out practically.

For vocal requirements, any will be more than enough for me. The main purpose is piano.

Anyway, keep the comments coming, since if there is enough pressure on going with the Edirol or Sony, I could order one soon, and not even try the Olympus and sell it as new when I get it.
I am more than convinced (by the samples I showed before) that the R-09HR is a safe bet for my expectations, but I guess I am being a little greedy considering the LS-10 and PCM-DC50 instead.

The Sony is too large, so that isn't appealing.
The LS-10 is the most appealing to me, not because of looks, but of design, battery, and clear sound. The Edirol is very attractive due to its well established performance, and excellent features as the wireless remote (which the Olympus could have too) and continuous recording after reaching 2gb file limit.

So basically, I want either ultra portable: pocket sized, or for better performance than that, I'd rather have the laptop approach. For small improvements, I could try with external mics that are pocketable, but that would be messier: stand for the mic, cables, etc. Not very likeable to be as easy and handy as a stand alone handheld recorder.

I hope this thread can be useful for other people in the future too.
Thanks,
Ary

[aryolkary]

I should also add, that I'm not gonna invest lots of money in the future for recording. Since I've been checking the prices of different mentioned mics, it certainly seems like when the time comes for serious recording, I'll go to a studio.

By the way, I found this interesting link about piano recording, quite informal but interesting, it opened my mind regarding lid positioning and some other stuff.
http://innig.net/music/recordings/method/

Edit: in the future if I were to get a microphone to gain some improvement, it would be something like the  AT822, a stereo mic, that can be had for less than 200usd used. I have no idea regarding self powered condensers, and whether Edirol would be better than Olympus, since I read the opposite in one of the previous links. At least I read a review saying the difference between a R-09 and the AT822 was noticeable. But this again, is for a distant future.

Regards,
Ary

[John Willett]

I went for the Olympus LS-10 for size, build quality, quality "feel", batteries and ease of use - I'm very happy with it.

From what you now say, I would go for the LS-10, it's about half the size of the Sony or Edirol.

I looked at that piano recording link - I would not use the microphones or positions he suggested - but there are as many ways of miking a piano as there are engineers recording piano.

[stantheman1976]

I've had teh D50 for a while now and I've found it to be very versatile.  It has nice quality internal mics and preamp and is solidly made.  It it a bit larger than the Olympus but it has changeable mic patterns and is a quality unit.  My only complaint is that it uses proprietary Sony memory sticks.  If they could have allowed SD cards it would be perfect.

[John Willett]

I've had the D50 for a while now and I've found it to be very versatile.  ....... it has changeable mic patterns and is a quality unit. 

Agreed on the quality unit - but I think the mic. pattern is fixed cardioid.

However you can alter the orientation of the mics.

Nice unit - but twice the price of the Olympus LS-10.

[aryolkary]

I've had the D50 for a while now and I've found it to be very versatile.  ....... it has changeable mic patterns and is a quality unit. 

Agreed on the quality unit - but I think the mic. pattern is fixed cardioid.

However you can alter the orientation of the mics.

Nice unit - but twice the price of the Olympus LS-10.

Well, almost twice the price. That's an important point.
Also, I suspect the LS-10 or R-09HR with an external mic, such as AT822 or Sony ECM-MS957 might be better sounding than D50 alone.
Anyway, the Sony is almost too large for pocket carrying I think.
By the way John, what do you recommend to protect the built-in mics of the LS-10 when taking it with you? I fear they are delicate like if I had to put the windscreen always to protect them, or what case is recommended?

[stantheman1976]

I've had the D50 for a while now and I've found it to be very versatile.  ....... it has changeable mic patterns and is a quality unit. 

Agreed on the quality unit - but I think the mic. pattern is fixed cardioid.

However you can alter the orientation of the mics.

Nice unit - but twice the price of the Olympus LS-10.

There are 3 different positions which basically amount to an X/Y setting, a DINish type setting, and and A/B setting.  The fact that they can me moved makes it more versatile as far as using it for an all-in-one.  I think the Edirol is a great recorder but the fixed pattern limits it in my mind.  Same with the Olympus to IMO.  I know the D50 costs more but when you use the unit it's obvious how much though was put into it.  Sony has been in the portable recorder business for a long time.  I'm not knocking the others in any way.  Just giving someof the reasons I chose it over any other recorder.

[flintstone]

Stephanie Wingfield has a business selling audio recorders
to musicians who want an all-in-one solution for capturing
their performances.  She sells all the recorders under discussion
here.  Stephanie is a professional musician (cello). I'm sure she
has experience recording piano.

Stephanie invites people to call her for a recommendation.
Wingfield Audio is in Chestnut Hill, MA, just outside Boston.
The number is 800-542-4038.

[John Willett]

By the way John, what do you recommend to protect the built-in mics of the LS-10 when taking it with you? I fear they are delicate like if I had to put the windscreen always to protect them, or what case is recommended?

The LS-10 comes complete with a carrying case and that's what I use.

When outside I use the supplied foam windshields and have a Rycote Mini Windjammer (especially designed by Rycote for the LS-10) as well.

[digitalolive]

Stantheman wrote:
"I've had teh D50 for a while now and I've found it to be very versatile.  ...  My only complaint is that it uses proprietary Sony memory sticks.  If they could have allowed SD cards it would be perfect."

Hey Stan, why does the Memory Stick thing bother you? Is there a problem with it. I don't understand why everyone considers this a drawback. I bought my D50 about a month ago based largely on your glowing reviews and I couldn't be happier. I haven't bought a Memory Stick for it yet but plan to get an 8 gig one. That should be plenty of time for anything I choose to record since I transfer everything to the Mac for editing anyway.

Thanks,

Steve

[Javier Cinakowski]

Portable Recorder for Piano = Point and Shoot Camera for Cave Pictures

[aryolkary]

Portable Recorder for Piano = Point and Shoot Camera for Cave Pictures

LOL.  That's one modern cave! With interior design and flashy lights (and shadows).
The first image that came to my head when I read your comment was a tourist wanting to take pictures of everything both in a museum or a cave. Craving for Flashhhh.

[flintstone]

The problems with Memory Sticks are

1.  Memory Stick Pro Duo is considerably more expensive than SDHC with similar capacity.

2.  Memory Stick is sold by Sony and Sandisk only.  So there's less competition, and fewer low-price deals.

3.  Sony recommends using these high speed Memory Stick Pro Duo models only:
Memory Stick PRO-HG
High Speed Memory Stick PRO

These high speed cards are not available in large capacities yet.  I think 4GB is the maximum today.  There are 8GB Duo cards on the market, but they are not the high speed models.  For some reason, Sony doesn't recommend the new Mark II cards for use in the D50.

Sony's specs for D50 Memory Sticks is here
http://esupport.sony.com/perl/support-info.pl?&info_id=19

Some people here have reported success using the slower Memory Stick Duo cards with the D50.  There are several slower Memory Stick Duo models, so you have to be careful which you choose.  

Flintstone

[John Willett]

Portable Recorder for Piano = Point and Shoot Camera for Cave Pictures

LOL.  That's one modern cave! With interior design and flashy lights (and shadows).
The first image that came to my head when I read your comment was a tourist wanting to take pictures of everything both in a museum or a cave. Craving for Flashhhh.

I saw it as a point and shoot camera in a cave where the flash was so weak all you would get was black.

Quite a good analogy, I think. 

[Javier Cinakowski]

yeah, you guys are smelling what I am stepping in...