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Author Topic: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION  (Read 33504 times)

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Offline datbrad

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 12:35:58 PM »
I would go with the company that has the longest history of making quality portable field recorders continuously through every format since cassette, since the original TCD5 was introduced in 1979.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 04:41:10 PM »
Yes, we should vote with our dollars for the best small recorder designs.
The Sony PCM-D50 should be considered in this category. 

The PCM-D50 costs about $450, the R-09HR about $330 from
authorized dealers. D50 features not found in the R-09HR:
-- a preamp that doesn't need modifying to correct flaws
-- low cut filter selectable for 75 or 150 hz
-- 5 second pre-roll buffer
-- very good quality built-in mics
-- optical digital input as well as mic and line in
-- a battery that's good for 10+ hours of recording
-- 4 GB of flash memory built in
-- a particularly effective, yet unobtrusive, limiter
-- an effective noise reduction circuit that improves 16 bit recordings
-- best build quality under $1000

Your cash, your choice.

Flintstone

Absolutely true.  As far as I can tell, the Sony is also an excellent performing, well engineered unit.  There are a few new flash recorders on the market I'm not familiar with, but if I was to buy a small 2 channel machine today my decision would likely be between the R-09HR and the PCM-D50.

Everyone values various features differently. For my personal use many of the features you list above don't matter much.  I only care about line-in, don't want low cut or a limiter, don't care about the internal mics, need more memory than 4GB anyway and prefer the R-09's size. I do like the pre-roll buffer on the Sony, it's build quality and optical in.

The Edirol wins on the following points which can be a deal breaker for some:
-uses standard SDHC cards up to 32GB
-uses [2] standard alkaline or rechargeable AAs
-smaller overall size

-[edit]-
I would go with the company that has the longest history of making quality portable field recorders continuously through every format since cassette, since the original TCD5 was introduced in 1979.

True and good point. Although it could be argued that those machines were at their heart and in large part, mechanical devices, whereas a flash machine (which Sony has also demonstrated they can also build well of course) is completely electronic and a different beast.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 07:21:22 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rastasean

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 04:54:47 PM »

-uses standard alkaline or rechargeable AAs



the sony D50 uses four double A batteries
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 06:34:09 PM »
the sony D50 uses four double A batteries

Ah, that makes it look better yet. Thx.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline gmm6797

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 06:54:49 PM »
the sony D50 uses four double A batteries
Ah, that makes it look better yet. Thx.

Eh?  The R09hr uses 2 and you should get over 5 hours of record time on a freshly charged set of 2700 mah batteries???

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2008, 07:13:06 PM »
Eh?  The R09hr uses 2 and you should get over 5 hours of record time on a freshly charged set of 2700 mah batteries???

I had forgotten the Sony used AAs, not a custom or internal battery which would be a big minus for me - my mistake.
Of course 4 is not not better than 2 unless you need 10 hours straight. I get 6-8hrs with new low self discharge 2100 mAh Maha's in my old R-09(s) but very rarely run them that long.. so yes, 2 is better.  ;)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline gmm6797

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2008, 07:18:16 PM »
I had forgotten the Sony used AAs, not a custom or internal battery which would be a big minus for me - my mistake.
Of course 4 is not not better than 2 unless you need 10 hours straight. I get 6-8hrs with new low self discharge 2100 mAh Maha's in my old R-09(s) but very rarely run them that long.. so yes, 2 is better.  ;)

got it... just read a little confusing before

Offline illconditioned

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 09:31:57 PM »
I've got both units, well the older Edirol R09, and the Sony.

The Edirol is very good, but the Sony wins hands-down.  It is just so well designed.  The layout is great, you don't even need a manual.

Another consideration is the the optical in.  This would be useful if you want a something to capture from an Edirol UA5 or a (modded) Grace box.

  Richard
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Offline gmm6797

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2008, 09:58:21 PM »
I've got both units, well the older Edirol R09, and the Sony.
The Edirol is very good, but the Sony wins hands-down.  It is just so well designed.  The layout is great, you don't even need a manual.
Another consideration is the the optical in.  This would be useful if you want a something to capture from an Edirol UA5 or a (modded) Grace box.

Considering I will not need to patch from another device or ever use the internal mics, how does it (The Sony) stack up?  I use my R09Hr in stealth mode most times

Offline illconditioned

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2008, 10:11:33 PM »
I've got both units, well the older Edirol R09, and the Sony.
The Edirol is very good, but the Sony wins hands-down.  It is just so well designed.  The layout is great, you don't even need a manual.
Another consideration is the the optical in.  This would be useful if you want a something to capture from an Edirol UA5 or a (modded) Grace box.

Considering I will not need to patch from another device or ever use the internal mics, how does it (The Sony) stack up?  I use my R09Hr in stealth mode most times

For line in, or for (relatively) hot mics, the Edirol is fine, and it is smaller.  And you've already got the Edirol, right?

 Richard
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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2008, 11:29:50 PM »
For line in, or for (relatively) hot mics, the Edirol is fine, and it is smaller.  And you've already got the Edirol, right?

I would be running the Schoeps MK4 into a nbox+ then to a deck... and I do have the R09HR already

Offline guysonic

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 07:41:45 AM »
NEW SNAKE OIL PART THREE: R-09HR MOD-4 Vs. LINE+EXT. PREAMP

A fellow TS member posted a question in another thread (Edirol R09HR Part Two) a few months ago asking if a comparison using the same mic/subject recorded MIC input verses external preamplifier was available (like the ticking clock in a quiet room tests) so differences (if any) might be auditioned.   At the time no such test recording existed but I suggested sometime doing a comparison recording using chromatic windchimes might be a possibility.

A few nights ago took time to setup such a test using my own DSM mics HRTF baffled mounted in front of two windchimes being excited by a fairly quiet fan.  The test setup was done just inside my garage door with the fan just outside as shown in the photo below.



THE TEST SETUP

As evident in the photo, two chimes are used with DSM-6S/H (GUY-baffled) mic placed a close distance away nearly centered between the two.  In the recording the ‘medium’ chimes are mostly heard on the left, with the ‘large’ chimes in the right channel. 

For having identical recording gain, the first (~30 min 24bit/88.2K) recording was made using the R-09HR’s LINE input at full up #80 REC LEVEL setting and a PA-3SX preamp set at highest #3 gain.  After the LINE+ EXT PRE recording, the mic was disconnected and a signal from a 1k Hz electrical signal from a variable level generator was inputted and adjusted so the deck displayed 0 dB VU. 

Then the PA-3SX preamplifier was disconnected and the same signal level was applied to R-09HR’s MOD-4 mic input set on ‘HIGH’ sensitivity and #80 REC LEVEL full up setting showing nearly same 0 dB VU full scale reading ~1 dB below max VU (more about this later).

Then another (~30 min 24bit/88.2K) test recording was made inputting baffled mic directly into R-09HR MOD-4 deck.

THE AUDITION SAMPLE CLIP

Both test recordings were then compared and, as much as possible, two ~11 second nearly identical clips were selected.  Below are the statistics for the two 11-second comparison clips.



The two 11 second (joined with 0.1 sec. silent space) audition clip is as follows:

LINE+PRE – SILENCE – MIC+MOD-4 as shown in the waveform image below.

Download the 24bit/88.2K 22 second/~11 MEG audition file at: www.sonicstudios.com/LINE_MOD4.wav

Suggest auditioning with sample being continuously looped for easier comparison.

THE AUDITION SETUP

I loaded the sample clip into my audio editor set for looped playback, used an M-Audio AudiophileUSB soundcard set for full (non-dithered-bit) playback, and connected a set of Sony MDR-SA3000 open-type headphones with 8-100,000 cycle bandwidth to the phones output jack.

I have to admit initially preferring the MIC MOD-4 sample clip for the clearly richer, more exciting (left-channel) sounding medium-size chimes clapper strikes of over the (in comparison) more damped sound of the LINE+PRE sample.

However, after listening in loop mode playback for a minute or two, started remembering past audition experiences of metal/chrome tape formulations, and experiences with ‘hyped’ directional/omni mics also initially sounding better to my ears, but after a short period of use revealed to having an unnatural hyped coloring characteristic not desirable for using when a natural recorded sound is intentioned.

Also, thinking of past (hyped) gear experiences is applicable in this case with the knowledge the PA-3SX preamp used has extensively tested performance.  The preamp, when set at maximum #3 gain, has flat 7 - 55,000 cycles –3dB bandwidth, is a well-damped voltage feedback design (very fast settling type) not ringing with pulse-type fast transient signals, and has an output capable of driving very heavy capacitive/resistive long cables/headphones loads. 

In other words, there’s good reason to believe the external test preamp was following the mic signal faithfully providing a low coloration LINE input to the test deck.  So we move on to consider any differences (variables) of test mic powering/loading effects.

Identical current in both tests powered the test mic. MOD-4 deck (open circuit) supply voltage is ~1.3 volts higher, and also applying a lighter ~4.1K ohm load as compared to the external preamp’s mic loading of ~1.8K ohm.  This does load the mic output more, and be ~1dB lower with ext. preamp connected. This makes up for the ~1dB lower applied (max’d out ‘High@#80) MOD-4 deck gain making for identical recorded test signal levels.

Extensive past experience with various powering/loading variations with DSM mics gives me reason to highly doubt audible differences were caused by mic input variations, and most likely the effect of the R-09HR’s internal preamplifier, and maybe the additional high-frequency spike noise being at cause.   

SUMMARY

There’s good chance R-09HR’s internal preamplifier does not settle quickly when presented fast audio transients like those produced by the medium chime’s clapper sound, and also possible low-level spike noise is adding additional ‘flavoring’ to spice up such sounds to be audibly ‘more interesting/complex’ than with less ‘colorful’ more accurate signal processing like possible with a well designed external preamplifier.

Regardless of the cause, at least to my ears there’s a definite audible difference.  This simple comparison test gives good evidence for some recordists to consider an external preamplifier with the R-09HR deck for achieving the most natural sounding recordings.


BONUS 1 MIN 24 SEC CHIMES RECORDING

For those desiring a larger 44 MEG (24bit/88.2K LINE input mode) file for a more satisfying chimes experience the file is here:

www.sonicstudios.com/09HR-LINE_CHIMES.wav

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 01:07:15 PM by guysonic »
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Offline flintstone

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 12:49:17 PM »
Nice work! +T

Digifish performed a test recently comparing the stock R-09HR with good, quiet mics and a battery box to the same mics feeding through a Sound Devices MixPre.  The benefit of the preamp (which costs $650) was immediately apparent.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1443847.html#msg1443847

Flintstone

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2008, 01:21:13 PM »
[quote author=illconditioned link=topic=109703.msg1473004#msg1473004 date=1221703893

For line in, or for (relatively) hot mics, the Edirol is fine, and it is smaller.  And you've already got the Edirol, right?

 Richard

[/quote]

Richard,

I know you have a modded AT822 and a 09 and/or 09HR. What settings on the Edirol do you set to record for the mic?

Thanks,
sean
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: NEW SNAKE OIL: R-09HR DECK MODIFICATION
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2008, 02:27:46 PM »
[quote author=illconditioned link=topic=109703.msg1473004#msg1473004 date=1221703893

For line in, or for (relatively) hot mics, the Edirol is fine, and it is smaller.  And you've already got the Edirol, right?

 Richard


Richard,

I know you have a modded AT822 and a 09 and/or 09HR. What settings on the Edirol do you set to record for the mic?

Thanks,
sean
[/quote]

Plug in power, mic in, low sens.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

 

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