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Author Topic: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!  (Read 21447 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2012, 07:02:37 PM »
Congratulations scoper, and you too Chris!
 :cheers:

The only difference I see here is that an nbox can only be used with microphones of a known sensitivity whereas a preamp with an 1/8" input could be used with microphones of varying sensitivity.

Bingo.

And that leads me to a question for Chris:

Good Mr. Church, what is the relationship between the adjustment pots and the stepped gain control?  Do the adjustment pots simply attenuate whatever nominal gain setting is selected on the stepped control?

If so, can you confirm my thinking here:
With the pots set fully clockwise, the actual gain ranges through the preamp selectable by the stepped control would be: 0, +10, +15, +25, +30, +40dB (which you posted above).. but if the pots were turned counter-clockwise to attenuate both channels by say -10dB, the actual gain range through the preamp would then be: -10, 0, +5, +15, +20, +30dB?

Is that correct?
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2012, 07:11:38 PM »
^^^^^
I'm hoping that's the case.  Why? Basically because of hi and lo’s observation on accommodating various mic sensitivities.  Many around here are using less sensitive mics with UGLYs, but a some like myself will run DPA 4060s into this preamp and the 4060s are a good bit more sensitive than most other small mics at 20 mV/Pa (re 1V/Pa). I'm usually recording less than ear-splitting material were I want gain through the UGLYs, but to avoid overloading the recorder input with really loud amplified  stuff I sometimes only want the UGLYs to power the mics without adding any gain.  In that case I adjust the pots way down to get something close to unity gain through the preamp- yeah, I know that's not the best way to run them and I could/should just use battery boxes in that situation.  But the point is that a bit of attenuation would actually be welcome for those situations and something like an effective range of -10, 0, +5, +15, +20, +30dB with the pots dialed back by -10dB would mean I could record most anything from knat farts to rocket launches with the same 4060 > UGLY2 > DR-2d rig, despite the limited useful range of gain adjustment on the DR2d’s line input.. and that would be a super win!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline scoper

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2012, 11:44:08 PM »
Sometime tomorrow I'll test this with music, probably by blasting my car stereo with me in it in a remote corner of a parking lot or something, but some initial impressions...

Form factor: this is a little bigger than 2 9V batteries stacked on top of each other, per the picture. I'm more used to something longer and flatter, so it will take some getting used to in a real-life situation. I record with my gear in a fanny pack, so just orienting the components so they're easily handled is the issue.

L/R trim "knobs" - these are recessed about 1/2" below the surface of the unit, and are VERY tiny - I'm not yet sure what kind of tool I'll need to adjust this, but since it's a one time (per mic set) adjustment it's not a big deal.

Mic in/out - this will really require 90 degree plugs to be practical - otherwise the plugs will make it unbalanced and pretty bulky (for its size)

Gain selection knob is pretty stiff, will likely loosen up some with use. As expected.

These are all really nit picking. The preamp will do its job in a size of a battery box, and should be a big hit. It does live up to the UGLY name, but I didn't pay for looks.

My next recording opportunity (non critical) is a perfect test for this unit - a (very) small hall (about 200 seats), recording an amplified acoustic act - exactly the kind of show I need the preamp for.

In the meantime, I'll do some testing in the car and report back in a day or so.

Thanks, Chris - this was a very smooth transaction, with good communication at every step - when delays came up, he told me about them before I asked. The six week build turned into ten when  some critical parts couldn't be obtained from his usual supplier, but since he let me know as soon as he found out, no strikes on him for that.
AT853U cardioid (low sens mod)| Countryman B3 Omni (low sens mod) > CA-UGLY II > Sony PCM-M10

Former: Sony MiniDisc/JB3/MicroTrack/R-09HR

Offline bobstammers

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2012, 03:29:36 PM »
Mine came today as promised. Successfully avoided customs into the UK as well, a first for me with the previous 4 transactions!

Won't be tried and tested for another couple of weeks but will report back then.

Thanks Chris for a seamless transaction.
Mics        : Naiant AKG CK63 Actives, DPA 4061, SP-CMC-25, CA11c, CA11 IIo,CA14c, CA14o, CAFS, AT933 (4.7k)
Pre         : Tinybox, PIPSqueak, CA9100, Ugly II pre, CA Ugly II 3 wire pre
Batt Box : MM-CBM-Mini
Decks     : H340 rockboxed, R09HR, M10 x 2

Offline scoper

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 03:59:24 PM »
My first "live" test of the preamp will come Friday... I've tried it out in the car and it works as promised, so I don't anticipate any issues.

In venues where I'm familiar with the sound, it should be set and forget -- other place will require a little more monitoring initially as I search for the correct amount of gain. I'll have to get used to the step increments, as they're not linear across the spectrum of adjustments.

AT853U cardioid (low sens mod)| Countryman B3 Omni (low sens mod) > CA-UGLY II > Sony PCM-M10

Former: Sony MiniDisc/JB3/MicroTrack/R-09HR

adrianf74

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2012, 04:15:48 PM »
My first "live" test of the preamp will come Friday... I've tried it out in the car and it works as promised, so I don't anticipate any issues.

In venues where I'm familiar with the sound, it should be set and forget -- other place will require a little more monitoring initially as I search for the correct amount of gain. I'll have to get used to the step increments, as they're not linear across the spectrum of adjustments.

So, Scoper, how did the Ugly II treat you in your first real-world tryout?

I'm sure many of us are curious.  TIA!

Offline scoper

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2012, 11:09:51 AM »
The UGLY-II performed exactly as expected during my first use of it - it's easy to set up and very low profile, which works well for my needs.

I recommend getting right-angle terminators on your input/output cables - it will make everything easier.

I still find it odd that the stepped gain knob isn't linear - 0,10,15,25,30,40 ... 5db in some spots, 10 in others. If your sweet spot is +20, for example, this won't zero it in.

All of that said, I may have been better off with the CA-9200, which is bigger but also has a trim knob for fine tuning. I want to be able to set my recorder (R-09HR) at unity and then lock it, doing ALL adjustments through the preamp. The digital gain adjustment on the Edirol is pretty noisy.

So it's a nice unit, but I'm not sure it's perfect for me. My next recording will be the polar opposite of the last one - in a stadium setting 2/3 of a football field away, in 3 weeks. I'll keep you posted.
AT853U cardioid (low sens mod)| Countryman B3 Omni (low sens mod) > CA-UGLY II > Sony PCM-M10

Former: Sony MiniDisc/JB3/MicroTrack/R-09HR

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2012, 05:01:30 PM »

I still find it odd that the stepped gain knob isn't linear - 0,10,15,25,30,40 ... 5db in some spots, 10 in others. If your sweet spot is +20, for example, this won't zero it in.

All of that said, I may have been better off with the CA-9200, which is bigger but also has a trim knob for fine tuning. I want to be able to set my recorder (R-09HR) at unity and then lock it, doing ALL adjustments through the preamp. The digital gain adjustment on the Edirol is pretty noisy.


I think Chris set the gain knob the way he did because he feels +15 is perfect for loud rock and +20 would have a chance of causing the pre to clip (the pre doesn't have a clip indicator, so if you clip the pre you won't find out until you've finished the recording). For quieter stuff you can go louder than +20 (he generally recommends +30 or +35 for acoustic) so he probably felt a +20 setting isn't necessary. The +40 is probably there for nature sounds.

If you sell the Ugly and have Chris build you a CA-9200, it is possible he could do custom gain settings of your choosing. If you want the +20, perhaps he could replace the +25 with +20. It would be worth asking him.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2012, 02:04:51 PM »
I still find it odd that the stepped gain knob isn't linear - 0,10,15,25,30,40 ... 5db in some spots, 10 in others. If your sweet spot is +20, for example, this won't zero it in.

I agree it would be nice to have uniform steps, but pretty sure the step values are tied to commonly available resistor values, so it may not be easy for him to do that.  Chris, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think Chris set the gain knob the way he did because he feels +15 is perfect for loud rock and +20 would have a chance of causing the pre to clip (the pre doesn't have a clip indicator, so if you clip the pre you won't find out until you've finished the recording). For quieter stuff you can go louder than +20 (he generally recommends +30 or +35 for acoustic) so he probably felt a +20 setting isn't necessary. The +40 is probably there for nature sounds.

That's completely dependent on the sensitivity of the mics being used.  Unless he specified a particular mic, those sugested figures are completely meaningless.


Chris are you reading this thread? Can you answer the question I posted a couple weeks back, about 7 posts above: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155972.msg1987825#msg1987825


Thanks!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2012, 03:52:18 PM »

I think Chris set the gain knob the way he did because he feels +15 is perfect for loud rock and +20 would have a chance of causing the pre to clip (the pre doesn't have a clip indicator, so if you clip the pre you won't find out until you've finished the recording). For quieter stuff you can go louder than +20 (he generally recommends +30 or +35 for acoustic) so he probably felt a +20 setting isn't necessary. The +40 is probably there for nature sounds.

That's completely dependent on the sensitivity of the mics being used.  Unless he specified a particular mic, those sugested figures are completely meaningless.


You're right of course. I should have mentioned that I assume he meant the above recommended settings for use with his mics that are low sensitivity due to the 4.7 mod. If so they wouldn't apply to your DPA 4060's of course, but might work well with 4.7 modded AT853's and possibly DPA 4061's.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 03:54:03 PM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2012, 07:11:30 AM »
I still find it odd that the stepped gain knob isn't linear - 0,10,15,25,30,40 ... 5db in some spots, 10 in others. If your sweet spot is +20, for example, this won't zero it in.

I agree it would be nice to have uniform steps, but pretty sure the step values are tied to commonly available resistor values, so it may not be easy for him to do that.  Chris, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think Chris set the gain knob the way he did because he feels +15 is perfect for loud rock and +20 would have a chance of causing the pre to clip (the pre doesn't have a clip indicator, so if you clip the pre you won't find out until you've finished the recording). For quieter stuff you can go louder than +20 (he generally recommends +30 or +35 for acoustic) so he probably felt a +20 setting isn't necessary. The +40 is probably there for nature sounds.

That's completely dependent on the sensitivity of the mics being used.  Unless he specified a particular mic, those sugested figures are completely meaningless.


Chris are you reading this thread? Can you answer the question I posted a couple weeks back, about 7 posts above: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155972.msg1987825#msg1987825


Thanks!
No actually these resistor values are not common but when you only have 6 steps you can't do 5 db increments and go from 0 db to 40 :) you would have to jump by 10s or a combination like I did. and these numbers are based on
my mics in real concert situations. these gain steps work for my mics in a variety of situations. for dpa mics you will use less gain. for modified countryman mics this will work correctly for modified AT mics this will also work correctly.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2012, 12:01:57 PM »
Thanks for the clarification.

What is the relationship between the adjustment pots and the stepped gain control?  Do the adjustment pots simply attenuate whatever nominal gain setting is selected on the stepped control?

If so, can you confirm my thinking here:
With the pots set fully clockwise, the actual gain ranges through the preamp selectable by the stepped control would be: 0, +10, +15, +25, +30, +40dB (which you posted above).. but if the pots were turned counter-clockwise to attenuate both channels by say -10dB, the actual gain range through the preamp would then be: -10, 0, +5, +15, +20, +30dB?

Is that correct?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2012, 01:25:40 AM »
Thanks for the clarification.

What is the relationship between the adjustment pots and the stepped gain control?  Do the adjustment pots simply attenuate whatever nominal gain setting is selected on the stepped control?

If so, can you confirm my thinking here:
With the pots set fully clockwise, the actual gain ranges through the preamp selectable by the stepped control would be: 0, +10, +15, +25, +30, +40dB (which you posted above).. but if the pots were turned counter-clockwise to attenuate both channels by say -10dB, the actual gain range through the preamp would then be: -10, 0, +5, +15, +20, +30dB?

Is that correct?

The pots control the output of the preamp and they go from 00 to the gain setting of the preamp. So they can be used as attenuation for camera connections. Or to balance the left and right for mics other then mine that are not well matched.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2012, 09:44:37 AM »
Thanks Chris, that's what I was hoping to hear.  That makes it a good match with the DR2d as well as cameras, since it can attenuate the output as necessary. 

I think it's about time for me to send you an email about placing and order.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: New Church Audio Preamp - I'm the guinea pig!
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2012, 05:54:29 PM »
I have just redesigned the Ugly II preamp This is what is now looks like. All functions are on one side. So that adjustments and cables all flow in one direction. This allows it to sit in a pocket comfortably.
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

 

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