Topic: delay

[BJ]

ok..so Ive been running serveral MAT's...and I remember reading a lengthy discussion on here about needing/not needing a delay from the sbd.  I think it was 1ms for every ten feet.  What type (brand/model) would you suggest for delays?  I have no idea of things i should be looking for, so i thought i might ask for suggestions first.  as always...cheaper is better(for my situation right now).  The 3 bars that most of my tapins is in...the sbd ranges from 15ft-40ft back from stage.  as always...+t's in advance.  

Lets not try to startup the debate again, just some suggestions of delays available.  thanx.
 

would somthing like this work??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3712930022&category=23790

[Todd R]

A useful approximation is 1ms of delay for every foot, not every ten feet.  It depends on ambient temperature and a number of other factors, and I think it might be closer to 1.1ms, but 1ms per foot is the general rule of thumb.

Also, a delay of 10-15 or maybe 20ms won't present too much of a problem.  At about 25-30ms delay, the effect will become noticable.  Such a delay will sound like a lot of reverb, though not necessarily a distinct echo.

So unless you're in a very small club, you won't be able to run mics at the soundboard to do a matrix without a delay, or you'll run into the problem of the time delay between the room mics and the sbd (since most soundboards will be farther than 20' back).

[C.Clark]

not really much in the way of portable delay devices, maybe a small portable mixer that has a delay, but the best for delaying the sbd feed into a matrix is the TC electronics d-2 which runs around 500 bucks

[Tim]

I think you're better off mixing in post... it's a bit of a pain but it's much cheaper.

[BJ]

how can i mix in post?  wouldnt i need two seperate recording devices for that?  
Currently I am running the sbd into the RCA's on the back of the UA5...and run the mics into XLR on front....
well..if there are no cheap solutions..(sub 200$) I think i might stop the MAT's and just run the 391's.  Thanx guys!

as always +t's

[nickgregory]

you are right, to mix in post you need another recording device

[Tim]

oops, sorry... I didn't check to see if you had 2 devices, my bad.

what room are you trying to run Matrix in?

[Terps]

ART has the reputation of making high quality gear.
A digital delay may be a better choice.
You will need high fidelity and good control over the time-delay.
Try this link-
http://www.eventide.com/profaud/h8000.htm

When you aren't taping, you can practice your Keller Williams licks.

[C.Clark]

ART has the reputation of making high quality gear.
A digital delay may be a better choice.
You will need high fidelity and good control over the time-delay.
Try this link-
http://www.eventide.com/profaud/h8000.htm

When you aren't taping, you can practice your Keller Williams licks.

that thing looks to be like a little bit of overkill for what he's trying to do , the most simple outboard box that does the job right is the d-2, kevin browning uses it for his matrix's and i will be too shortly

[BobW]

The Eventide is only 6cents and would need a generator.

Can you imaging wheeling in one of these puppies to the next show ?

[fsulloway]

Here's another option that may work for you. You could pick up a mixer like the Mackie 1202 for less than $200 and try Doug's idea. The following is from the Oade board.

To use mics in the venue facing the stage, you need to delay the board feed about 1 ms per foot of distance the mics are from the PA. The other and more common approach is to place them on stage at each edge of the stage facing out, no delay need for this. I suggest you start with this technique. Cards and omnis are both used. I find omnis more to my liking and easier to mix in. If you use cards, have the one on the right facing towards the left side of the venue, so the mics 'cross' in the crowd. This on stage technique makes phase issue and room anomalies less significant, especially if you use omnis. Since you are going to a two track recorder, try it with the mics on stage, either cards or omnis and mix them in about 15 to 20 dB below the board fee . Many engineers raise the room mics about 6 dB for crowd applause, between tunes, radio produces just love this ! Just stay focused on the performance and it is not hard to do, might even get you a job....

I hope this helps ...>Doug

[C.Clark]

i read that over there, i still dont understand wny you would want cards to be on axis with the crowd, it would nullify most of  the stage noise, someone please tell me im missin somethin here

[Tim]

depends on what you're trying to achieve. with Doug's technique you capture almost all crowd and can get that "live" feeling for the sbd tape. if you put the mics at the board you get the crowd still but you also get the sound of the instruments in the room, you may not always want that.

[BobW]

Just adding in crowd noise is one reason for a matrix.
Certainly not the only one.

The AUD part of a matrix can fill instruments which the PA didn't cover well.
This is really important with jambands when add-in musicians and instruments confound the soundman and players.

The AUD mics add ambience to the sound beyond the crowd noise.
Some folks do not like it, others love it. There is a live room sound that only a mic recording can capture.

Does anyone have a line on some of Jon-o's techniques ?
He does a pretty solid job of this.

[joeshambro]

I use a TC Electronic D-Two for this.  My preferred way of micing a room is two mics onstage - shotguns are my favorite but I've made use of Oktava MC012s, Earthworks SR77, even SM57 in a pinch.  Large diaphram mics are good (Especially if they have a hyper function).  This gives me crowd response, just be careful your screamers and off-key singers aren't right in the line of sight if you're using shotguns.  Usually, most bigger shows that use in-ear monitors already have a set of guns or LD's on the sides of the stage feeding the crowd noise in the monitors, so it's not hard (if you're doing a pro job) to convince the band's crew to run you a line through the snake back to FOH for your mix, since it's split into the monitor snake already...

Then for room tone I put a pair of cards or hypers ORTF back by the board.  You want something that'll capture a nice warm ambience of the room, and cut out some of the crowd.  Since the onstage mics are more focused towards crowd response, you don't want the room mics to overload the crowd noise of the room.  Usually for pro gigs I'll put a limiter with a slow attack time and fast release, with a sidechain/key of the board feed.. when the board feed gets hot (ie, the band plays) the room mics will fade down slowly a few DB to clean up the mix.  I don't do this for the onstage mics as, like I said, they're more focused and  don't have as much "crap" in them as the ones back at FOH...

Then the board feed comes in, delayed by the D-Two -- You need to be as close as you can be, and you need to constantly monitor it throughout the show.  As the temperature and humidity increase in the room, you'll experience a change in delay times.  You need to stay on the delay times or else you'll experience comb filtering (weird phasing).  The calculation for this is pretty simple:

let's say S=the speed of the sound coming at you in air and D is the degrees farenheit in the room (a combination thermometer/hygrometer is great for this, I carry one in my pro rig for this exact situation).  Let's say the room is 70 degrees.

S=(1052+1.10d) ft/s
S=1052+(1.10x70)
S=1052+77
S=1129 feet/second
 
So say your crowd mics are at FOH, and let's say that's 40 feet from the stage and the mains.  The room sound will be coming at you 1129 feet per second.  Since there's 1000 milliseconds per second, divide 1129 by 1000, that'll give you right at 1.13 feet per milisecond at that temperature...  that means that the sound will reach your mics in right at 45 miliseconds.  That's what your delay needs to be.  You'll have to redo this calculation around halfway through the show and adjust your delay a small bit accordingly.  Also, as the humidity level goes up (and if you're using a HQ mixer to mix down the 6 tracks) you might want to either roll up the bass or roll off the high end, because the high end will become more pronounced with higher humidity.

If everything's mixed down properly, and no phase problems come up, the mix should be awesome...