Topic: Portable recorder for music festivals/clubs?

[enphenate]

Hey there,

New to the forum, I have found a lot of valuable info here but have a few question. I have just recently sparked interest in digital recorders and could use some advice in regards to a good unit or setup that can capture live events (mostly for electronic music events). This means high volume and lots of bass. I need a recorder that can properly record these loud concerts without distorting and at the same time capture the low end frequency of the music as well.

The events are typically indoor at clubs or at outdoors at large music festivals (similar to Coachella, Lolapalooza etc...) I am looking for a unit that I can mount near a speaker or record while in the crowd. The Zoom H1 seems very portable but im unsure if it would be able to handle the music. The H2N seems a bit awkward to record a live show with and I cant seem to find any frequency specs for these.

Hoping to be able to capture a show/festival with decent sound quality and no distortion while being able to handle the continuous kick/bass drum inherent in electronic music.

I would appreciate it if anyone could point me towards the right direction and any extra tips on capturing a live show, good setup location and settings are more than welcome 

Thanks

[earmonger]

Outboard mics and a battery box are what you need. Internal mics are just not bass-loving or high-volume-accepting enough for EDM.

I love my Sony PCM-M10 and CA-14 omni mics (esp for electronic if they are bouncing sounds all around the space--forget about cardioids that only pick up forward). I am currently awaiting two battery boxes because the previous ones died--look at soundprofessionals.com or microphonemadness.com if you need them fast. You might try Church Audio's UBB (Ugly Battery Box) if you're also getting his CA-14 mics, by far the best bang for the buck in this corner of the known universe.

Mic-->Battery Box-->Line-in. Probably around 5 on the PCM-M10 level knob with the CA-14, maybe 4 if the subwoofers are really rattling your soft tissue.

Place the mics where it sounds good. If that's near the sound booth--might well be since that's where the mixing is happening--then good. Move away from shrill shrieky girls or WHOO-ing dudes or people who get SO chatty on Molly I love you dude no I love you really. Dancing people are good--they're not talking. 

Of course, lots of DJs put their sets up on Soundcloud or their own sites. So you might be able to get their soundboard recordings anyway.

[enphenate]

Thanks for the response,
nice to see someone on the same page! I will be going on a 3 day festival in a few weeks and im almost positive most of the sets wont be uploaded I want to focus the least of my energy on recording the sets. Kind of want to set it and forget it so I can get to enjoy the night instead of worrying about my recording, so I dont know how a mess of wires and everything will work out, especially at shows that recording is frowned upon.

The 3 recorders I was looking at were the Zoom H4n, Tascam 100MKII & Sony PCM-M10. Seems like the majority here seem to side with the PCM-10. I wont be doing any DSLR recording and probably wont ever need the XLR inputs as I will solely use the unit for recording concerts. This is all very last minute for me so my budget can probably only cover the recorder and maybe a cheaper mic, the CA-14 package through church audio is a bit too much at the moment as an extra expense to the recorder & it probably wont make it to me on time as my event is in 2 weeks.

Would the internal mics on any of the units do a half decent job? I just dont want to hear a horrendous distorted mess similar to my cellphone recordings haha. I dont know if it would be worth it for me to purchase a recorder just for the internal mic if it wont be able to handle the set. Do you have any other cheaper alternatives to the CA14?

Thanks again, I appreciate it!

[yates7592]

You won't get any cheaper (quality) mics than the CA-14 or CA-11.

If you're dead set on the all-in-one route, the Sony PCM-D50 might be better than the M10. The internal mics on the D50 are way better and probably take a higher SPL, I think its about 125dB or thereabouts, but don't expect miracles, mics and battery box will sound much better most of the time. There's a used D50 in the Yard Sale right now:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165901.0

[stevetoney]

You asked 'can I get something decent?' from internals.  The answer is actually yes.  Most noob tapers will be somewhat satisfied because you haven't got a critical ear for your recordings and we usually over-appreciate our first recording efforts.  The problem is that it doesn't take long for most people to become dissatisfied with internals because it only takes a show or two before they start comparing what yours sounds like to what others are getting.  This could be especially true for you because you said in your OP that you want to hear the subs in your recordings.  The internals are going to disappoint you in that case.

So what I'd do is buy a Sony M10 because it's a recorder you can grow into and you won't regret later once you decide to upgrade.  The Zooms...well they're alright but for live music recording they're the bottom of the line because they're noisy.  You won't find hardly any tapers on ts.com with a zoom in their sig line, but you'll find ALOT of people with the m10.  It's just a better recorder.

The CA-14 mics have great bass response, so they'll definitely fit your need.  As far as not wanting to dick around with wires, well you said you wanted a good recording.  Make up your mind...do you wanna party or do you wanna record.  You can't do both...or at least I should say you can't party and expect to get a good recording if you're not running your mics on a stand.  I mean, don't get me wrong, you can party AND tape.  I do it all the time but the music is still the focus, not the party...so if your thing is running around and raging with your friends, you might reconsider if taping is something you want to get into.

So, if I were you, I'd buy an m10 and record a couple of shows with the internals. When you realize that you don't like them, you'll either decide that taping is not for you and you'll sell the m10, or more likely you'll figure out where to find $150 to buy your mics.  Trust me.  That's just how this hobby goes. We all do the same thing...we feel to see how hot the water is, then it doesn't take long to dive into the water clothes and all.

[TommyAudio]

enphenate-

The Sony M10 is the way to go...I have a Roland R05 I use as a back up and a Tascam I use only for audio notes at home, etc. I wouldn't record music with it. The Sony M10 you can grow into. At the price it is you can't go wrong buying it. it's internal mics aren't bad, but as previously posted you won't stay parked there for very long. As far as mics, there is a difference. Read all you can on this site and others. You may want to consider AT (audio-technica) 853's or 953's as well. you can pick a set of those up at the yard sale for a good price. I have a set of both and made the step up to the Schoeps MK4's...WOW...I've used a Sound Professional pre-amp too in the early days until it got lost in the mail (long story) and I then switched to Naiant Tinybox products. Do check them out. I have 2 of those. So, the system I've settled down with is the Schoeps MK4's, A Naiant Tinybox and the Sony M10....My very first system was a Sony stereo mic and a Sony mini-disc player/recorder. I thought I was rocking with that system....I still have it too...Its museum worthy now....Whatever you decide on will probably depend on the available cashflow at the time. That's my .02 worth...Good luck....

[earmonger]

Mics don't really mean a mess of wires and if you want to be low-profile, then that's actually harder to do with internals because...you're going to be holding the thing. You can't just leave it in a pocket because the mics will end up rubbing against some fabric. What did you do with the cell, just hold it up? Arm strain alert.

The PCM-M10 internal mics are good but I don't know if they can take EDM bass without overloading--probably not. They do roll off the bass around 60 or 80 Hz (I forget) so you also lose low notes.

A great starter mic--esp. if you need it in less than a few weeks--is the Soundprofessionals BMC-2. (Chris Church builds his by himself and he can take some time.)

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

These are literally the size of pencil erasers and they have very thin wires, very stealthy with a dark shirt, hat, whatever.  If you're going to be using them a lot, get the 3 year warranty. They're tiny and you don't want to jerk them by either mic or plug, but they are surprisingly durable.

Get the BMC-2 with clips, clip it to a shirt collar or a hat or glasses--creativity--at the width of your ears. Welcome to binaural recording and you're the mic stand. You can hide the mics inside your shirt on the way in, or coil them in a pocket--looks like earbuds.

Run the wire inside your shirt down and over your belt loops to the PCM-M10 which is conveniently lurking in a Lowepro Ridge30 on your belt. It's like it was made for the PCM-M10--the flat PCM-M10 remote goes in the zipper flap on the front, there's a little pocket under the flap for a battery box and the unit goes in the pouch itself. Camera stores, Worst Buy, Amazon all have them.

http://www.amazon.com/Lowepro-Ridge-Camera-Case-Arctic/dp/B0009VT9OI/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1388360218&sr=1-2&keywords=ridge+30+lowepro

You don't need a preamp for EDM--it's amped enough and you'll save a lot of $$.  You do need a battery box, because it sends power to the mics that help them accept louder music. Get one of the cute small 12V ones at Soundpros, with the cable unless you have a short right-angle M-to-M cable at home (less stress on the jack on the PCM-M10 than a straight plug).

Mics-->battery box-->Line-in (not Mic-in--the battery box gives you a signal just strong enough for Line-in). Try around  4 on the level dial for starters. MANUAL LEVEL (switch on the back of the PCM-M10). Put on the Limiter in the PCM-M10 menus in case the bass drops louder than you expect--it drops the level if there's a sudden boom, otherwise does nothing.  Set and forget.

I used this setup for years. Basically the mics hear what you hear. CA-14 is a step up for depth and richness, but if you need a quick starter kit you will be overjoyed with those.

This is much stealthier than a Zoom with its mics hanging out there so obviously. The PCM-M10's mics are recessed, and most security guys think it's a point-and-shoot camera. They're looking for knives and guns anyway.  Don't bring those--they have lousy fidelity.

Seriously, that's your starter kit, and then you can wave your hands in the air like you just don't care.

[enphenate]

You guys are amazing, thanks for all of the responses & suggestions, I really appreciate it. I scored a brand new PCM-M10 from Guitar Center today for $160 out the door, they only had 2 units in store and both were on clearance. Also have a 64gb micro sd on its way

It looks like im going to start with the BMC-2 & battery pack build for the moment as I need everything ready by the 7th. I will be purchasing the CA-14s very soon but for now the BMC-2 will have to do as I need them in a hurry. Wish I would of found this forum earlier because I missed that amazing group buy that Chris just ran for the CA-14s.

I will be doing a practice run on new years eve to hopefully get a feel for the settings & internal mics of the PCM-M10 for the time being until I receive the BMC-2 mics.

The main event I am focusing on will take place on a cruise ship and im trying to think of crafty ways that I will be able to record most of the sets. The main stage is on the top deck of the ship, there is one level above it that surrounds/overlooks the main deck of the ship so im thinking of maybe getting a superclamp and attaching the M10 to the railing that faces directly towards the stage. The other stages are in a lounge type areas as well as a theater within the ship so I think those will be a lot easier to set it & forget it. There will also be a few sets on the beach so they might be a bit harder to record. Each recording will have its own set of rules depending on the location (main deck, beach, theater, lounges). I will attempt to do a few secret service recording as well but I don't know how well they will turn out as I am planning on getting wild with my friends so there will probably be a lot of ambient noise.

To say the least I am off to a good start on the hardware side of things and I am extremely excited to test everything out and hopefully capture some decent recordings!

Any other settings / recommendations are always welcome!

[thekittycatt]

Since you will be outside in warm weather, wear sunglasses & a sun blocking hat.  You can keep them on at night, too.  Find a way to disguise the mics in the hat or sunglasses.   Before you go practice setting up & setting levels.  Try different mic positions/locations.  Doing it before hand sober will help when you are 'fucked up' & in a hurry on the cruise.

[earmonger]

Also have a 64gb micro sd on its way

You need for format the 64GB card first. You can't just pop it in.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/456327/sony-pcm-m10-as-portable-player/120#post_8727898

On the cruise, bring along some smaller cards in case it gives you trouble. If it's a reputable brand it probably won't once formatted, but better to have backup.

The reason is that 64GB is SDXC, a different format from the SDHC cards up to 32GB.

Also, you should probably call SoundPros and make sure they get the mics out in time. They're friendly.

[enphenate]

Soundpros mics should come in today

Getting everything ready for the trip, got the 64Gb card formatted and working, SuperClamp, camera case, Soundpros mics + clips + battery pack + wind guards. Looks like I should be good to go!

Have a few questions on the settings that I should configure on the M10 for this festival.

These are my current settings, please let me know if I should change anything.

Rec level - manual
Mic sensetivity - low (is this correct for loud music?)
DPC (speed control) - off
LPF - off
limiter - on (is it worth keeping this on? Can it cause issues with the recording?)
Effect - Off

Detail menu:
Pre rec- off
Audio out - Headphones (or line out?)

Thanks for the help everyone!

[earmonger]

Limiter on. It's your airbag--only activates in an emergency.  Better to have the limiter than an overload.

Mic Sensitivity only affects Mic-in and internals. You should be recording Mic-->Battery Box-->Line-in.

Low for Mic-in would be correct for louder Mic-in recordings, yes. The more sensitive the mic, the more easily it overloads. 

Audio out: If you're playing the PCM-M10 through headphones, then headphones. Line-out would put out a stronger signal for playback  (via AUX input)  through a home or car stereo.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

My advice to a new taper is this:  go to a bunch of BS shows at your local club and tape.  Experiment with your gear.  Learn how to use it before you get to the "big show".  That way when you do get to the "big show", you'll know EXACTLY how to run your gear depending on your situation...

And bring extra batteries, b/c you never know...

Terry

[rastasean]

It's really great to see that the sony m10 is still being highly recommended and praised. I didn't necessarily expect a different recorder to take over and be better but there are a few other recorders out there, and none of them are (probably) as popular as the few year old m10.

to the OP, have a great time and enjoy recording live music. In fact, enjoy recording audio and the playback.