Topic: Binaural recording: Looking to upgrade my R-09: Suggestions?

[mhulse]

Hello,

I have an R-09 (it's at home, I think it's the "hr" model?) that I use for binaural recordings. I bought it 3 or so years back.

My binaural mics are the MM-BSM-8 with Sennheiser MKE-2 Capsules (as found on below site, but they no longer offer the Sennheiser option):

http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmtrunathook.htm

• Frequency response: 20- 20,000 Hz
• Signal to noise ratio: 62dB, 1khz at 1pa
• Open circuit sensitivity : -35dB (5.6 mv) re 1v at 1pa
• Dynamic range: 95dB, 1kHz
• Maximum Input Sound Level: 105dB SPL (120 db when used with one of our battery modules), 1kHz at 1%

When I record, on top of the phantom power from the digital recorder, I use this battery pack:

http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm

This battery module provides 9 volts D.C.(3- 3volt lithium batteries cascaded together), which is the optimum power, enabling them to handle higher (SPL) sound pressure levels without distortion! It will also extend the battery life of your records plug-in-power, because the module will be powering the microphone(s)!

My question:

I'd like to buy a new digital recorder. I really like the features of my Edirol/Roland recorder.

Based on the equipment I've listed above, could anyone recommend the best, hopefully compact, digital recorder that would provide the best possible recordings from my binaural mics?

Some features I'm looking for:

1. Disposable AAA/AA batteries.
2. I only need 1/8" inputs (though, 1/4 and 1/8 might not be a bad option).
3. SDHC
4. Not too complicated of controls. The R-09 was pretty good about this.
5. I'll be using external mics, so the on-board mics are not really that important to me (another reason why I like the edirol is the built-in mics don't extrude from the body).

Are any of the newer model Roland recorders worth me upgrading for the sake of better quality/optimal sound recordings? If so, what model number would you recommend?

Are there other brands that would handle my mics better?

In other words, what digital recorder, on the market today, would work best for binaural recording?

Many thanks in advance for the help!

[earmonger]

You'll hear a much greater improvement in your recordings by upgrading mics than you will by changing recorders.

Since you're going Line-in with the battery box, the quality of the preamps and internal mics is irrelevant to you. And your recorder can record PCM.  So basically you are getting, in hi-fi, all the sound quality that  those mics and battery box are putting out.

The newer Roland, the R-05, fits your criteria (SDHC, AA batteries) and probably has a familiar interface. For some reason I can't seem to find a dedicated thread here, but from stray remarks I've seen, people seem to think it improves on the R-09 and R-09HR. I haven't used one.  You might want to Google around other sites for reviews.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/687099-REG/Roland_R_05_R_05_Portable_24_bit_Digital.html

The competitor for the R-05 is the Sony PCM-M10, which I have and love, but it takes microSD (also has 4G internal memory).

There are fancier recorders but they are generally for more channels, XLR connections, phantom power and other pro upgrades. 

Unless your R-09HR is dying,  you might be better off investigating  higher-quality binaural mics rather than a new recorder.

[mhulse]

Hi Earmonger! Thanks so much for the reply and help, I greatly appreciate the pro advice!

You'll hear a much greater improvement in your recordings by upgrading mics than you will by changing recorders.

Ahhh, interesting! I hadn't even thought of that.

Back when I bought my binaural mics they had the option to upgrade the mics to Sennheiser MKE-2 Capsules. I think the total price was $250. With that said, I'm not sure if the mics I linked to are of equal quality (even if my Sennheiser's are 3+ year old).

Now that you mention it though, I'd totally be open to upgrading mics. Do you happen to know in-ear binaural mics that would give me that extra boost of quality for, and would pair well with, my R-09HR?

Since you're going Line-in with the battery box, the quality of the preamps and internal mics is irrelevant to you. And your recorder can record PCM.  So basically you are getting, in hi-fi, all the sound quality that  those mics and battery box are putting out.

Interesting! I think I follow (sorry, I'm kinda an audio noob ... mostly dabled with it over the years). To clarify, it sounds like you're saying that, based on my current digital recorder and battery pack, I'm maxed out on quality due to the limitations of the mics I currently own? Hmm, that makes a lot of sense now that you point it out. I'm limited by the quality of the mic, not the quality of the recording equipment (all things considered).

The newer Roland, the R-05, fits your criteria (SDHC, AA batteries) and probably has a familiar interface. If you search for threads here, people seem to think it improves on the R-09 and R-09HR. I haven't used one.

Cool! I'll look into the R-05 just to check it out. I wasn't sure which model was newer (it's hard to follow the model numbers without knowing release dates).

The competitor for the R-05 is the Sony PCM-M10, which I have and love, but it takes microSD (along with its internal memory).

Cool! I don't mind microSD. I just have invested in several SDHC (for audio and picture taking) so I kinda like the thought of sticking to one memory stick type. But, sticks of memory are cheap these days, and those things are small, so I guess it's not really a point to worry about.

There are fancier recorders but they are generally for more channels, XLR connections, phantom power and other pro upgrades.

Ah, interesting. I definitely don't need many frills. I'll check out that Sony. Thanks for tip! Of course, now I'm considering buying new mics, so I may have to hold off on the new recorder!

Unless your R-09HR is dying,  you might be better off investigating  higher-quality binaural mics rather than a new recorder.

I think it's actually doing good. Nothing wrong with it. I just assumed there might be improvements in sound quality if I upgraded to the newer models. I'm totally interested in a mic upgrade instead.

I'll have to google around for binaural mics ... Any tips on what to look for in terms of mic quality?

Not sure if it makes a difference at this point, but here are the specs on the MKE 2 (the mics I currently use):

http://en-us.sennheiser.com/clip-on-lavalier-microphone-live-speech-instrument-mke-2

Frequency response (microphone)    20 - 20000 Hz +- 3 dB
Cable length    1,6 m
Sensitivity in free field, no load (1kHz)    5 mV/Pa +- 3 dB
Nominal impedance    1000 Ω
Min. terminating impedance    4700 Ω
Equivalent noise level    26 dB
Equivalent noise level weighted as per CCIR 468-3    39 dB
Maximum sound pressure level (passiv)    142 dB
Current consumption    ca. 250 µA
Operating voltage (stand alone)    7,5 V

Thanks again for all of the help earmonger! I really appreciate it!!!

[noahbickart]

Welcome, brother.

You should browse this sit for a while, you'll really learn a lot. Most of your questions have hotly debated answers; but everything depends on where and what you are recording.

[earmonger]

Those Sennheiser caps already look pretty high-end.  I'm surprised they don't list a signal-to-noise ratio among the specs--it may be in a format I don't understand.

But one thing that is interesting is that they claim to handle 142db--which is LOUD, much louder than the other binaurals on the Mic Madness or bhphotovideo.com sites.

You might want to post on the Microphones board, with some info on your budget and what you are recording: nature sounds? street sounds? acoustic guitar jams?  jets taking off? There are some real experts here.

[John Willett]

You'll hear a much greater improvement in your recordings by upgrading mics than you will by changing recorders.

He can't upgrade the mics as he is already using the best there is.

He said that he was using the version that was based on the Sennheiser MKE2 capsule and this is about the best you can get in miniature microphone capsules.

The MKE 2 is based on the KE4-211 capsule which Sennheiser used for their own Dummy Head microphone.  It was also used by Sennheiser for their (now discontinued) boundary mic. and is also used as the capsule for a well-respected class-1 measurement microphone.

I would agree with you if he was using some cheap mics, but he is already using the best available in-ear binaural mics you can get.

Regarding the recorder - I would look at the new Sony PCM D-100 in the first instance, or the Tascan DR-100II in the second.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

He can't upgrade the mics as he is already using the best there is.

I differ with you on that, as I definitely prefer the DPA 4060/4061 (as used in our High End Binaural mic sets) over the Sennheisers for binaural recordings.

He can slightly improve on the R-09HR's mic pre-amp noise levels if he's using the Mic input.

[mr qpl]

I'd suggest the dpa 4060 or 4061's. If you don't like what you hear, they usually carry all their value on a resale, if new or nearly so.

[mhulse]

Wow! Thanks a ton for the help and replies everyone! I really appreciate the help, advice and feedback.

You should browse this sit for a while, you'll really learn a lot. Most of your questions have hotly debated answers; but everything depends on where and what you are recording.

I'm looking forward to reaing more. I just found this site via Google the other day (it was first to pop up for the search terms I was looking for).

I didn't even think to say what I'll be recording! Sorry about that omission.

Here's my deal: For one of my hobbies, I like to take pics (mostly HDRI on a tripod); as of the last 3+ years since having my binaural mics, I also like to record the surroundings as I take pics. On top of HDRI, I'm also into using my 3D camera to get 3d pics of scenes, and then turn them into wigglegrams later (for web consumption) and I'll also post the 3d audio of the photo outing. Long story short, I have a passion for recording my surroundings. Usually these surroundings are outdoor ambient noises; maybe places with passing automobiles or parks with people passing by. Other scenarios might include vacations where I visit, for example, Chinatown in S.F.; on one occasion I recorded 40 minutes of my wife's family and I eating at a packed dim sum restaurant. During that same trip, I also recorded visits to Alcatraz and tourist attractions along the piers (imagine sounds of boat horns, people, trolly cars ...).

I hope that helps to better explain better how I use my mics.

Those Sennheiser caps already look pretty high-end. I'm surprised they don't list a signal-to-noise ratio among the specs--it may be in a format I don't understand. But one thing that is interesting is that they claim to handle 142db--which is LOUD, much louder than the other binaurals on the Mic Madness or bhphotovideo.com sites.

That sounds like good news! I ended up buying the more expensive kind because I wanted to make sure I was getting good quality. Though, as you can probably tell, I'm not so keen on all of the technical details.

You might want to post on the Microphones board, with some info on your budget and what you are recording: nature sounds? street sounds? acoustic guitar jams?  jets taking off? There are some real experts here.

I'll check that board out! Thanks for tips! Again, I like to record my photo shoots, like when I'm on vacation to places like S.F. or Hawaii. When on vacation, I have a tendency to get out and record my whole day of pic taking. During that time, I'm usually in many different environments (some loud, others not).

He can't upgrade the mics as he is already using the best there is. He said that he was using the version that was based on the Sennheiser MKE2 capsule and this is about the best you can get in miniature microphone capsules. The MKE 2 is based on the KE4-211 capsule which Sennheiser used for their own Dummy Head microphone.  It was also used by Sennheiser for their (now discontinued) boundary mic. and is also used as the capsule for a well-respected class-1 measurement microphone. I would agree with you if he was using some cheap mics, but he is already using the best available in-ear binaural mics you can get.

That's great news! I mean, $250 was around what I spent. I don't think I could afford anything more that $500 for new mics. It's sounding like maybe I could keep my mics (they're still in great condition) and possibly upgrade the recorder?

Regarding the recorder - I would look at the new Sony PCM D-100 in the first instance, or the Tascan DR-100II in the second.

Awesome! Thanks for tips/recommendations!

I differ with you on that, as I definitely prefer the DPA 4060/4061 (as used in our High End Binaural mic sets) over the Sennheisers for binaural recordings. He can slightly improve on the R-09HR's mic pre-amp noise levels if he's using the Mic input.

I'd suggest the dpa 4060 or 4061's. If you don't like what you hear, they usually carry all their value on a resale, if new or nearly so.

I just found this webpage: http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php

Those look/sound excellent! The price looks decent too (for everything that's offered). Thank you for the recommendation! It's great to know what's out there and is worth buying. For those, I'd have to save up for a few more months, but that's why I'm here ... Planning for the near future.

Out of curiosity, what's the best way to hook those mics up to my person? The binaural mics I own currently have an over-the-ear mount:



I really like that ear hook mount. I'm pretty sure it's removable. I wonder if I could adapt the ear mount to fit the 406* models?

Signal-to-noise is the difference between 94dB and the stated (I assume A-weighted based on the higher CCIR figure) 26dBA self-noise, for 68dB.  Dynamic range is the difference between max SPL of 142dBSPL and self-noise of 26dB, for 116dB. The dynamic range is about as good as it gets for these type of microphones, but you can move that range around by changing the capsule sensitivity--there are capsules with 16dBA noise but max SPL of only 132dBSPL.  If you only record loud sources, I wouldn't worry about that, but if you do quiet acoustic or ambient stuff, you might look for a second pair with lower self-noise.

Thanks for the feedback! Some of the technical details are new to me (I'll be doing some research this weekend), but it sounds like my mics are probably a good fit (for the time being, until I can afford something nicer like the 4050 or 4061's) for what I do with them.

Thanks again to everyone for the pro help and excellent advice/tips! I really owe you folks one.

[mhulse]

Now, this might be a total noob question, so please bear with me:

If my battery pack provides 9V power, and my current R-09(HR) can provide 5V of phantom power, which one would provide the mics with the best (is it called) dynamic range?

Looking at the specs of the mics (at the bottom of my second to last post), is the important number 7,5v? How does that relate to the power that my recorder or battery pack provides?

Would it be bad to use phantom power and the battery pack at the same time?

I read somewhere that some people think it's best to use the recorder's phantom power over a battery pack (I think this was for studio recording). Would this be true for binaural mics?

When looking at the specs of recorders, what number should I be looking for in terms of phantom power voltage in relation to what my current mics can utilize in voltage?

Thanks!

[mhulse]

First, phantom power is a technical term referring to a type of powering that this is not, these mics use "plug-in power" or "bias power".  You cannot connect these microphones directly to a source of phantom power (which is 12V to 48V).

The spec of 7.5V is ideal for the capsules but they are tolerant of between 5V and 9V.  More important is paying attention to the specified load of 4.7K.  Unfortunately, many portable recorders do not supply more than 3V, and the load is often unstated, which is why people use battery boxes.

Battery boxes should have output capacitors such that any DC from the recorder is blocked (and DC from the battery box to the recorder is blocked), so it shouldn't matter if both are switched on.

Ahhhh, that makes a lot of sense to me now!  So, in my case, as things stand currently (until I upgrade), it sounds like the battery pack is the way to go.

Thank you for the clarification and details, I really appreciate it.

[aaronji]

Not sure if it makes a difference at this point, but here are the specs on the MKE 2 (the mics I currently use):

http://en-us.sennheiser.com/clip-on-lavalier-microphone-live-speech-instrument-mke-2

Frequency response (microphone)    20 - 20000 Hz +- 3 dB
Cable length    1,6 m
Sensitivity in free field, no load (1kHz)    5 mV/Pa +- 3 dB
Nominal impedance    1000 Ω
Min. terminating impedance    4700 Ω
Equivalent noise level    26 dB
Equivalent noise level weighted as per CCIR 468-3    39 dB
Maximum sound pressure level (passiv)    142 dB
Current consumption    ca. 250 µA
Operating voltage (stand alone)    7,5 V

There have been a number of different MKE-2 models; I am pretty sure these are not the specs for the ones sold by Microphone Madness.  They are considerably more sensitive (10 mV/Pa).  I have never been able to figure out precisely which caps they used, but I was told one time that MM purchased a large lot of a model that Sennheiser was discontinuing and used that same batch for years.  No idea if that is true or not...

He can't upgrade the mics as he is already using the best there is.

I differ with you on that, as I definitely prefer the DPA 4060/4061 (as used in our High End Binaural mic sets) over the Sennheisers for binaural recordings.

I also prefer the DPAs, but the MKE-2 sounds great as well.  And they are happier with plug-in power...

[mhulse]

There have been a number of different MKE-2 models; I am pretty sure these are not the specs for the ones sold by Microphone Madness.  They are considerably more sensitive (10 mV/Pa).  I have never been able to figure out precisely which caps they used, but I was told one time that MM purchased a large lot of a model that Sennheiser was discontinuing and used that same batch for years.  No idea if that is true or not...

Ahhh, I bet you're right.

I was in contact with MM folks, and asked:

1. I noticed the latest model of the MM-BSM-8 doesn't offer the Sennheiser upgrade. Does this mean that my older model is better than what you offer currently?

Their reply:

A:  Yes that is correct for now. Sennheiser will no longer sell us the capsules needed for that build.

Not sure if that means anything in particular ... I'm betting it does mean my mics are not the same specs as what I linked to in previous posts (like you say).

After doing a quick search, I found this old page:

http://store.microphonemadness.com/mmtrunathook.html

From that page:

Now available, optional "Sennheiser" Driven micro-sized capsules (omni-directional )!!! Incredible sound quality...guaranteed!!! These are matched sets and are high-end microphones.

"Sennheiser" Driven SPECIFICATIONS
Frequency response: 20- 20,000 Hz
Signal to noise ratio: 65dB, 1khz at 1pa
Open circuit sensitivity : 10 mV +/- 2.5 db re 1v at 1pa
Maximum Input Sound Level: 130dB max SPL with out a battery module!

"Sennheiser" Driven / FEATURES
Flat frequency response
Requires a bias voltage of .9 to 15 volts D.C. (also known as plug-in- power) or one of our battery modules.
Includes Life- Time Warranty at no extra charge!

That definitely looks like the page I remember back when buying the mics/battery pack (missing some branding, but the inner-content area for sure).

For comparison's sake, here's the specs I posted earlier for the MKE 2 found directly on the Sennheiser site:

Frequency response (microphone)    20 - 20000 Hz +- 3 dB
Cable length    1,6 m
Sensitivity in free field, no load (1kHz)    5 mV/Pa +- 3 dB
Nominal impedance    1000 Ω
Min. terminating impedance    4700 Ω
Equivalent noise level    26 dB
Equivalent noise level weighted as per CCIR 468-3    39 dB
Maximum sound pressure level (passiv)    142 dB
Current consumption    ca. 250 µA
Operating voltage (stand alone)    7,5 V

http://en-us.sennheiser.com/clip-on-lavalier-microphone-live-speech-instrument-mke-2

Going to post this and then compare the specs for my own amusement (hopefully yours too!)

[John Willett]

He can't upgrade the mics as he is already using the best there is.

I differ with you on that, as I definitely prefer the DPA 4060/4061 (as used in our High End Binaural mic sets) over the Sennheisers for binaural recordings.

I certainly like the DPA 4060 - but I thought that they had side entry rather than front, which made me think they would not be so suitable - maybe I am wrong in this.

In any case, I would put the DPA equal to the MKE 2 in quality - just sound different, which comes down to a personal preference.  I like both.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

I certainly like the DPA 4060 - but I thought that they had side entry rather than front, which made me think they would not be so suitable - maybe I am wrong in this.

The 4060s have rear entry cables.