Topic: DSD-recorders, dff. Can it become a future default format?

[Egor]

I want to talk to you about dsd. Let's imagine, sony pcm d100 and other dsd recorders have megasuccess. So, where this recordings can be listened to? For example, when you record wav, you can send it to anyone or upload anywhere and everyone can hear your sounds. And what about dsd? It is extremely hard/impossible for playing on ipods/any portable players/pc's/mac's, so the "easiest" way is to send recorded dsd file to your friend, attaching an Audiogate software to your letter 

1. How do you think: is there a future of dsd popularity?
2. What's the solution now? For example, a man recorded an album in dff format. What's the easiest steps must he take to make people hear this dff's?
3. Is there any way to play dff files on pc? Even Audiogate makes pcm's during dsd-playback. so you open dff and play pcm - or it is not true?

sorry for my eng

[voltronic]

1. How do you think: is there a future of dsd popularity?

Maybe, but only when DSD-capable DACs, editing software, and portable playback devices also become popular (and cheaper).  Still a ways to go on those fronts.

2. What's the solution now? For example, a man recorded an album in dff format. What's the easiest steps must he take to make people hear this dff's?

It's not easy right now, and there are factors beyond your control.  You can play these files with Audiogate, and Foobar2000 can play dff files with the decoder listed below, but it's pointless to send someone a DSD / DFF file unless you know they are listening through a DAC that handles that format directly.  Those are still expensive and not portable.  Otherwise, what you are hearing is DSD -> converted to PCM by software / audio driver -> converted to analog by your hardware DAC.  In that case, you should have recorded to PCM (WAV) in the first place and saved the extra step.
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_input_dsdiff

Here's a very revealing interview with the chief engineer from Benchmark Audio about DSD:
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=74

[H₂O]

Actually there are a larger number of DSD capaible DACs on the market - ranging from $149 to $$$$$

See an older list here (hasn't been updated in a year) http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-resources-dsd-dac-list

Sony released it's PHA-2 which is a portable DAC with headphone AMP that supports upto DSD128 (street is $549):
http://store.sony.com/WFS/SNYUS/en_US/-/USD/-zid27-PHA2/cat-27-catid-Collections-10R-Series-Headphones?k_id=1b406dab-94a8-c049-e24b-000042ade903&kpid=PHA2&adparam=sem73pla&XID=O:PHA2:dg_gglsrch:pla&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CKXD3PXvrr0CFYFQOgodaQQArw

You can hook the PHA-2 up an iphone, andriod phone, or computer and using the free Onkyo playback app can play DSD (w/o conversion to PCM) or listen to PCM at upto 24/192.

Fostex has a nice DSD128 capiable DAC for only $399:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1019862&gclid=CJzg89bwrr0CFUNqOgodOwMADg&Q=&is=REG&A=details

The cheapest DSD DAC I have found is $149 and only playsback DSD64:
http://schiit.com/products/loki

There where some do it yourself kits using ESS Sabre chips for under $100 but that's with no enclosure, etc.


These are all very reasonable priced IMO.

[DigiGal]

Via Moore's Law DSD is probably the next direction for Digital Audio to move.

Shucks just as the Pono Player comes to fruition.

Mahler is fabulous! Love your avatar voltronic.

[voltronic]

Via Moore's Law DSD is probably the next direction for Digital Audio to move.

Shucks just as the Pono Player comes to fruition.

Mahler is fabulous! Love your avatar voltronic.

Thanks!  Mahler was the man - too bad his wife didn't think so...

[voltronic]

Actually there are a larger number of DSD capaible DACs on the market - ranging from $149 to $$$$$

See an older list here (hasn't been updated in a year) http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-resources-dsd-dac-list

Sony released it's PHA-2 which is a portable DAC with headphone AMP that supports upto DSD128 (street is $549):
http://store.sony.com/WFS/SNYUS/en_US/-/USD/-zid27-PHA2/cat-27-catid-Collections-10R-Series-Headphones?k_id=1b406dab-94a8-c049-e24b-000042ade903&kpid=PHA2&adparam=sem73pla&XID=O:PHA2:dg_gglsrch:pla&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CKXD3PXvrr0CFYFQOgodaQQArw

You can hook the PHA-2 up an iphone, andriod phone, or computer and using the free Onkyo playback app can play DSD (w/o conversion to PCM) or listen to PCM at upto 24/192.

Fostex has a nice DSD128 capiable DAC for only $399:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1019862&gclid=CJzg89bwrr0CFUNqOgodOwMADg&Q=&is=REG&A=details

The cheapest DSD DAC I have found is $149 and only playsback DSD64:
http://schiit.com/products/loki

There where some do it yourself kits using ESS Sabre chips for under $100 but that's with no enclosure, etc.


These are all very reasonable priced IMO.

I get where you are coming from, but that list from Audiostream was what I was basing my "expensive" statement on, so I guess we have different definitions of "reasonably priced."   The Loki is DSD only, which makes that $149 not as great a value as it first appears.

The Fostex you linked though - that looks really interesting.  So does the Light Harmonic Geek:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gavn8r/geek-a-new-usb-awesomifier-for-headphones
$200 for DSD128 AND 24/384 PCM - that is the type of value I have been waiting for.

[John Willett]

Shucks just as the Pono Player comes to fruition.

What's this Porno player?   

Sounds rude to me. 

[voltronic]

TI makes an ADC with a direct modulator output, 6MHz at 6 bit or something like that.  Feed that into however much DSP you want to devote to the problem, whether you want DSD or PCM output.

Jon, is this the chip you are referring to?  Looks pretty sweet.
http://www.ti.com/product/pcm4222

And for the other end, it looks like TI has a good solution also:

From the Light Harmonic Geek Kickstarter page FAQ:

What DAC Chip are you using?

We're using the TI PCM1795 DAC IC. It can natively decode DSD music format and with TI direct support and our implementation, it could decode 32/384K as well.

[udovdh]

I want to talk to you about dsd. Let's imagine, sony pcm d100 and other dsd recorders have megasuccess.

Not until they offer affordable, less bulky decks, without the big mics, etc.

[taperj]

Not until they offer affordable, less bulky decks, without the big mics, etc.

Korg has the MR-1 and MR-2 which are not bulky at all(size of a handheld), are affordable, and record in all 3 DSD formats. I ran an MR-1 for a couple years and liked it a lot.

[udovdh]

MR-1 has internal battery?
MR-2 looks better.
But why?
What does DSD do that PCM can't? (audio quality wise in a live, stxxlth situation)
I am thinking about how to edit the DSD audio; I do have open source stuff for PCM, but what about DSD?
Then the archival: don't have a SACD player, AFAIK, but I can burn them cheaply as I do DVD+R's?
I can compress DSD like WAV using FLAC?
I did not really investigate but if these are lacking they also need to be taken care of.
It all looks interesting but not yet complete enough.
And yes I do dare to be on the bleeding edge of technology every once in a while :-)

[H₂O]

MR-1 has internal battery that can be replaced - at least one person documented this process - the orig battery only last 90-120 min on stock unit recording to DSD
MR-2 can record longer off AA's 4 hours with high cap AA's I believe

MR-1 does have potential of lasting longer if the built in hdd is swapped with ssd - but this is not trivial as the MR-1 is sensitive to write speed

DSD DSF files can be compressed into DST files with similar results to FLAC

IMO DSD sounds more open or analog when compared to pcm

The only in depth editing software out there is quite expensive - Korg Audiogate (which is free) allows tracking, splitting, and vol adjust for DSD but it is more of a real time processing app (you can't edit the wave form)

[DigiGal]

Here they come...

Korg DS-DAC 100 USB Audio Playback System

Benchmark Media DAC2

[capnhook]

Here they come...

Korg DS-DAC 100 USB Audio Playback System

Benchmark Media DAC2

"Audio equipment lacking a professional aesthetic is not going to transport the listener to a world that's distant from reality.....The influence of vibration is minimized by a bottom panel with gleaming metal spiked feet."

Magic pebbles..? 

[voltronic]

For maximum isolation, you really would want to put that unit on this rack:
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-99054-stillpoints-ess-rack.aspx