Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)

[Carrera2]

Was the most recent file split glitch on the built-in card?

Yes, recorded on the internal memory, not the SDHC card. Suddenly seems like a lot of work to check this out! To minimize the time to file split, I recorded at 96/24.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Knowing that it is on the internal eliminates concerns about 3rd party cards.

Is there an option on the m10 to start a new file?  You might check the split on that.  It's possible the split issue only happens in certain circumstances, like 24/96, etc..

[Carrera2]

Knowing that it is on the internal eliminates concerns about 3rd party cards.

Is there an option on the m10 to start a new file?  You might check the split on that.  It's possible the split issue only happens in certain circumstances, like 24/96, etc..

Yeah, I guess there are innumerable permutations to try.

My second try with the internal memory (not card) and at 96/24 yielded a similar result as the first. The nasty static type noise is in the first file just before the split (first screen shot). Then at the split, the "half sample" is dropped. I hadn't noticed the waveform flipping right after the "gap" before (second screen shot).

Not sure this rules out card memory. Think I'll try another test on the external card. This is troublesome, though. And tedious.

[Carrera2]

On the other hand, with the Edirol R-09, there is no static noise just before the file split, there is a sort of "half sample", the waveform seems proper, and there is no audible detection of the file split.

A new test with the M10 underway now, splitting files on the SDHC card. More later.

[Carrera2]

Alright, it's settled. This puppy goes back. Whether splitting a recording within the M10's internal memory, across internal and external memory, or within an external SDHC card, in all cases, a static type noise is introduced just before the file split, something goofy happens with the waveform. I tried also using the TMark function and dividing the tracks, and a small "tick" noise was also introduced at the split point. (BTW, I also used two different, freshly formated SDHC cards.)

I like the aesthetics of the M10 and the feel in the hand. Regretably this one goes back.

Do I just have a defective unit? Should I gamble on swapping this one out? Are these actually reported to do seamless file splits? I thought I read that somewhere, but perhaps not.

Who else has split tracks in one way or another and had good results? Or have you tried yet?

[rastasean]

Alright, it's settled. This puppy goes back. Whether splitting a recording within the M10's internal memory, across internal and external memory, or within an external SDHC card, in all cases, a static type noise is introduced just before the file split, something goofy happens with the waveform. I tried also using the TMark function and dividing the tracks, and a small "tick" noise was also introduced at the split point. (BTW, I also used two different, freshly formated SDHC cards.)

I like the aesthetics of the M10 and the feel in the hand. Regretably this one goes back.

Do I just have a defective unit? Should I gamble on swapping this one out? Are these actually reported to do seamless file splits? I thought I read that somewhere, but perhaps not.

Who else has split tracks in one way or another and had good results? Or have you tried yet?

Can we hear what this static noise sounds like? an mp3 or wave would help... Did you have the recorder in a silent room or did you have the gain turned all the way down?

I know in the menu there is an option for cross recording and I thought that was if/when the internal memory fills up, it switches to the external card. It seems that you have that enabled by what you wrote. Is that true?

[Carrera2]

Can we hear what this static noise sounds like? an mp3 or wave would help...

Attached.

Did you have the recorder in a silent room or did you have the gain turned all the way down?

I was always recording ambient sound with a moderate level of manually determined gain.

I know in the menu there is an option for cross recording and I thought that was if/when the internal memory fills up, it switches to the external card. It seems that you have that enabled by what you wrote. Is that true?

Correct.

[rastasean]

I'm now running a test to see if I get the same or different results of Carrera2.

1 hour 36 minutes remaining at 96/24. my gain is turned all the way down so absolutely no sound is being recorded.

[rastasean]

I'm now running a test to see if I get the same or different results of Carrera2.

1 hour 36 minutes remaining at 96/24. my gain is turned all the way down so absolutely no sound is being recorded.

I just finished my tests to see what kind of results I would come up with.

What I did is I set recorder to internal memory at 24/96 bit rate to take up most disk space and recorded nothing. The gain was at zero and nothing registered on the m10. Two files were created on the m10 and one was 1.99gigs which ends up being 1 hour, 2 minutes and 8 seconds the next one was 1.11 gigs with a time of 34 minutes and 29 seconds.
Once the entire 4 gigs were full on the m10, a message came up: Continue recording in a different memory. It did this automatically and updated the recording time remaining on my 16 gig card which was somewhere around 7 hours 16 minutes. I let the third recording roll for 2 minutes and 26 seconds which results in a 80.1MB file of nothing.

Before copying the files to my computer, I switched to the internal memory and started to play the first file and skipped to the last ~20 seconds for the recorder to seamlessly play the last file on the internal memory. What did I hear? nothing. Absolutely nothing.
According to page 40 of the users manual, When you play back the original track recorded with Cross-Memory Recording, the PCM recorder does not play the succeeding track automatically.

So I to copied all three files totaling 3.10 gigs to my computer and opened up Audacity to see if there is any static disruption as Carrera2 found in his tests.

end of file one

beginning of file two

end of file two

beginning of file three

play times of files  the file in the middle, 100717_01 is on the external memory.

While my tests recorded nothing, the file splits also occurred without creating any sound whatsoever. The only DAW tool I have is audacity so while it may be primitive, I think static noise would have been displayed and heard on the recordings.

So I think my tests show that if you record nothing, there will be no static noise. I plan I doing the test over again with the gain raised to record audible noise and hope I get the same results.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Good job.

I don't think you will see the issue at that zoom level.  You'll need to zoom in until each sample becomes visible as a dot.
It'd also be interesting to know if there is any glitch when the files are joined.

[Carrera2]

rastasean's test got me to test still some more. I did the "zero gain" test he mentioned and then imported the files into Samplitude V8SE. Just before the file split, there was once again the "zzzzztt" static sound. So I imported that same pair of files into Audacity. Suddenly, I was hopeful. I didn't hear any static, pops, clicks or gaps. I've returned to the computer tonight and re-imported serveral of the earlier recorded files into Samplitude 10 Master. And to my wonderment, the previously observed half-sample gap was still visual (but not audible) and none of the static-type noise or queer looking wave forms existed. I've used Samplitude V8SE many times to join split files made with an Edirol R-09 with no problem.

So...something must be happening in the way that Sony, Edirol, Samplitude and Audacity are implementing .wav file standards. I'm now cautiously optomistic that the problem is one of file compatability between Sony and Samplitude file handling capabilities, and not with the M10 hardware. More later.

Thanks to all for chiming in with their experiences.

[aaronji]

This thing has been on the market since something like October/November 2009.  Lots of people here have picked one up and, given the generally compulsive tendencies of a lot of tapers, somebody would have noticed non-seamless splits by now!  Especially since it has been a problem with past recorders...

I have had no problems with cross-memory recording in 16/44.1 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1719160#msg1719160), but thought maybe Carrera2's problem could be related to higher rates/frequencies.  The first .jpeg is a cross-memory split from a 24/96 recording magnified to the sample level.  The second is from a 24/48 recording of a Steve Hackett show a couple of months ago (one second before/after the split) and the third is the second magnified to show the split at the level of single samples...Nothing could be heard in these, either, and combining the files with Sound Forge, Audacity or Audition all produced the same results.

Seems like there must be a problem with Samplitude, especially since it also chops a half sample with the Edirol...

EDIT TO ADD:  The splits are at the orange flags; guess that is obvious but I should have mentioned it...

 

[rastasean]

I agree with aaronji. This site has more exhaustive reports, reviews, and information than any other audio blog I've ever read (specifically about the m10 and in general). If seamless audio splitting was an issue, it would be here and on some audio blogging website but this is my first time to hear it and read about it.

Carrera2, can you actually hear the static noise on playback of the recorder or ONLY on the computer in Samplitude?

Good job.

I don't think you will see the issue at that zoom level.  You'll need to zoom in until each sample becomes visible as a dot.
It'd also be interesting to know if there is any glitch when the files are joined.

I will re-take the screen shots but I think if there was ANY noise, it would be visible at the level I have it at. 

[rastasean]

maximum zoom level in audacity shows no static noise as carrera2 was getting.

^ end of track one with max zoom. ^

[SPLASTiK]

Bought this thing last month and have logged about 12 hours on it plus a few hours playback... still on the stock Sony batteries!
I bought it as a replacement for my Sony PCM-M1 that died on me a couple years ago and had retired from taping since.

I think it's a great replacement. Sounds great, easy to use, super small and stealthy! Last night I was getting knocked around by an impromptu moshpit and it never missed a beat. The battery compartment came open, good thing it's not like the old M1 as that would have ejected the batteries!

The only things I miss are the peak hold for setting levels and I'm not really a fan of the hold/on/off button. I always get worried I'm going to shut it off mid-recording fumbling it around in the dark but I'm sure that will eventually subside. The other thing I wish is that it would just flash "hold" in the place where time remaining/elapsed or something was when you pushed a button with it on. When wanting to do a quick check at levels, etc. in the dark the hold screen flashes for a few seconds first. A hold screen seems a little excessive.

Overall, it's a steal at the $250 I paid, and robbery at $199... especially considering I paid over twice that for the old M1.