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Author Topic: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?  (Read 11283 times)

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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« on: August 19, 2016, 12:59:53 PM »
I have AKG 460's with the cardioid caps (ck61).  They sound great, but sometimes in boomy halls our when recording from distance I want to better pick up the vocals form the band. I know the ck63 hypercard caps are a good option and very popular here, but I can't drop that kind of $.  I have seen the akg ck8 short shotgun caps at relatively lower prices (2nd hand).  Anybody know if these would improve vocals?

I also typically record with a center omni mic, so how would that play into the situation?

or AKG ck80 modular hypercard?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 01:03:55 PM by CorFit Chris »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 01:14:49 PM »
My $.02 before others chime in (calling gutbucket in 3..2..1!)
I have often run the ck8's as a PAS pair with mixed results. Sometimes from the lawn at an amphitheater it will make a "better" recording than ck61's. But at that same show/venue if you are under the balcony inside the pavilion theck8's will probably be a bit boomy. In indoor venues from more ideal recording positions (say front row loge/balcony) it might work to cut out some room noise, but again, I made a ck8 PAS recording (2008 Black Crowes Palace Theater ALB NY) which I think has almost no mid range to speak of which I fault my set up for. Some folks swear shotgun mics should NEVER be used for what we do, I disagree to an extent but have decided after my last so-so 2 ck8 in PAS show (TTB 2014 at SPAC) never to do it again.

Specifically about vocal clarity, YES, in some cases the ck8 vs ck61 will give you more vocals, but typically at the expense of dynamic range, soundstage and accuracy. (IMO)

As far as your cards outside/omni in the middle- I would not run ck8 outside with Omni in the middle after the last 18 months of experimenting with essentially the opposite (Omnis spread at least 91 cm with ck8 or ck61 in the middle),
But, if you do that, you are essentially emulating the Nakamichi 3 mic set from the 70's/80's in which they sold the 3 mic set and offered a mixer to go 3->2 channels on the fly.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2016, 01:36:24 PM »
Ha! Rock just posted while I was typing, so forgive any doublespeak repeat below..

Rocksuitcase and Kindms have made some recordings using a single ck8 between a pair of spaced omnis over the past year or so, influenced partly by my recommendation to try a forward facing highly directional microphone between spaced omnis.  The single forward facing directional mic optimizes PA clarity by focusing on that to the exclusion of ambient sound arriving from all other directions, while the spaced omnis provide a open-sounding full-frequency ambient bed in which that clear direct PA portion sits, centered.

The respective frequency responses of a supercardioid or shotgun in the center compared with the frequency response of the omnis helps as well, encouraging midrange clarity in the center of the playback image anchoring vocals there, combined with deep bass and ambient air reproduced more diffusely towards the edges of the playback image.

I find this 'inverted' omni/shotgun approach superior to the more traditional historical taper approach of using two shotguns with a single omni in the middle, both in terms of the theoretical basis underpinning it and the experience of listening to my own recordings made this way in comparison to doing it the other way.  Great recordings have been made with two shotguns plus a single omni.  We've all heard them.  I just find this approach considerably more productive and a better bet most of the time.  The directionality of the shotgun mic is used to it's best advantage while the less than ideal sonic attributes of the shotgun mic are better mitigated by the spaced pair.


Indoors in a boomy hall, I'd switch the omnis to cardioids and keep the shotgun in the center.  Angle of the cardioids depends on their spacing, the distance from the stage, and the nature of the venue.  I made a few recordings that way last winter (actually using three supercardioids, but arranged the same way, and using the same basic concept) and it worked very nicely.  Adjustment of the level and EQ of the center supercard could be used to "bring out the vocals" and if open to EQing that for best vocal clarity, the tendency towards "shrillness" for the rest of the sound is countered by the outer pair.  In that case I had the outer pair angled about +/- 45 degrees, the center mic facing directly ahead, and about a foot between each mic (for about a 2' total spacing).  Outdoors I recommend spacing the omnis as far as you can, up to about 6' if possible.

Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 01:38:29 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 02:18:18 PM »
Ok, so sounds like I should should keep my ck61's in action because I really like their sound, and consider running split omni's (studio projects c4) and add a center shotgun.  This way I can mix and match with what sounds best.  In this case, I would only need to add a center shotgun or hyper card to my collection.  Any suggestions on the center mic (i'm on a budget)?

In instances where I can't put up split omni's, do you suggest wide ck61's (NOS) with forward center shotgun, or center omni, or forward center shotgun and single omni overtop?

Here is my latest recording for reference, with ck61's in NOS and center C4 omni angled forward and upward:
https://archive.org/details/HWA2016-08-16.24BIT
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2016, 03:02:26 PM »
Chris,
First, Thanks for the HWA link- I actually noticed it when you first posted it and sent the link to my good friend and former taping buddy who lives in Arlington. He had expressed interest in the show when we spoke recently but being a TUE couldn't make it. So DBL thanks!

As far as shotgun rec's which might fit your budget- what is the budget? Looking for only one may make for an easier find, I'm not sure. Sennheiser makes a few shotgun cap/preamp combos, I just found this one for $459 new at B&H; you could probably find a used one for less. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/73100-REG/Sennheiser_ME66_K6_COMBO_ME66_K6_Super_Cardioid_Mic.html

As a comparison, this is the MKH-416 which is a television/movie sound industry staple especially as it is designed to withstand high humidity in outdoor applications. $1,000 new.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/79502-REG/Sennheiser_MKH416_P48U3_MKH_416_Short_Shotgun.html

Of course, you are correct, you might be able to find a ck8 with a 460/480 pre amp used for about $600(I think?)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/AKG-C460B-Microphone-Preamp-C-460-B-C-460-Mic-U054421-/272336970196?hash=item3f688c61d4:g:LxwAAOSw0UdXq1ZS      Just the pre amp = $175   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Akg-ck8-microphone-/201643301063?hash=item2ef2e098c7:g:oV0AAOSwz2lXB8gE        ck8 from GB $220 USD plus shipping. HOWEVER, the picture is poor and no SN is offered, so I am leary of this item. 

Others will hopefully join in here.
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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2016, 03:21:49 PM »

As far as shotgun rec's which might fit your budget- what is the budget?

Thanks.  My budget is below $500.  I know I can find good used mics around and I'm not necessarily in a hurry.  I just need some good suggestions for my purposes within my budget.  I don't want to rule out better, more expensive mics that I may be able to find a good deal on used ones.
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2016, 03:31:57 PM »

As far as shotgun rec's which might fit your budget- what is the budget?

Thanks.  My budget is below $500.  I know I can find good used mics around and I'm not necessarily in a hurry.  I just need some good suggestions for my purposes within my budget.  I don't want to rule out better, more expensive mics that I may be able to find a good deal on used ones.
That should get you something nice.
Chris, when I lived in Ft Worth and ran an AV installation company, we would buy things, used or new from these guys, give them a call when you are looking for used mics, they often have stuff they've been renting for sale: http://www.crossroadsaudio.com/
music IS love

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2016, 04:06:56 PM »
Any thoughts on if putting a hypercard capsule on one of my SP C4's and using as a front center between my akg 461's?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2016, 05:17:38 PM »
That works, certainly worth a go outside and may be a really good answer for a tough room indoors.  In the indoor case, point the cardioids at the PA speakers and the center hyper directly forward.  Just make sure to space the cardioids far enough to make up for the pretty narrow angle between them (the improved PAS thing), and again more for introducing a third mic in the center.  Off the cuff, I'd say use 2' minimum between the cardioids when used that way, and probably significantly more if you can swing it, but no sweat if not.

As a general rule, you want to put your more directional mic in the center, whatever it's actual pickup pattern, and use your less directional mic pair as the outer flanking pair.  The other general rule is to use more spacing for three mics than you would normally use for two.  You want at least twice the stereo pair spacing, if not more.  Depending on the acoustic situation, you probably also want more angle between the microphones.  Outdoors, if constrained to that same spacing used indoors, I'd point the flanking pair of cardioids directly sideways! Gasp! ..fully trusting the forward facing center mic, as a way to maximize the difference between the three channels and thus improving imaging, ambience, and minimizing potential phase cancellations.  I point the omnis sideways too, which is perhaps less gasp inducing since they are omnis, because that increases signal difference at the highest frequencies where the omnis become directional, and usually also affords a few extra inches of omni spacing from a given bar length.  Push 'em out as wide as you can get them.

If pointing two of the three mics sideways sounds radical, consider that 2 channel DIN is a 12" spacing with a 90 degree angle between cardioids.  So in terms of the spacing/angle relationship, having the outside pair of cardioid facing directly sideways (180 degrees apart) with a total spacing of 2' and a third mic in the middle is pretty much the same spacing/angle relationship as two side-by side DIN setups sharing the center mic (doubled down double-DIN?).  Outside, if I couldn't arrange to space omnis far enough, I'd do that as a way of leveraging the directionality of the cardioids to counter the limited amount of spacing I had available, otherwise I'd probably use choose omnis and space them apart more.

A single omni in the middle might be helpful if you have only one omni, or only one channel remaining, but I always prefer omnis in pairs spaced enough apart (for a couple reasons I'll be happy to go into if you like).

Ok, so sounds like I should should keep my ck61's in action because I really like their sound, and consider running split omni's (studio projects c4) and add a center shotgun.  This way I can mix and match with what sounds best.  In this case, I would only need to add a center shotgun or hyper card to my collection.  Any suggestions on the center mic (i'm on a budget)?

You can also try the spit omni thing with one of your ck61 cardioids in the middle, before picking up a supercard, hypercard or shotgun.  Or three cardioids in a row if you have a third.  Simply having an array of three mics arranged in a row is going to get you a good deal of the way towards a more forwardly sensitive setup with center 'tunability' options which can be used to increase vocal clarity.  It's sort of like an antenna array, and works even with three omnis, which is the way I did it outdoors for years before moving towards substituting increasingly directional mics in the center.  Using a more directional mic in the center optimises things by tailoring the properties of each mic to the roll it plays in the combined array, isolating what the center mic picks up as much as is practical. But just having three mics in a line is a big step forward even by itself.

Since it sounds like you currently have both a pair of omnis (SP C4) and a pair of cardioids (AKG ck61), as well as a 4-channel recorder, I suggest you go ahead and take it one step further for your next outdoor event without having to buy any new mic(s) quite yet-

Setup the spaced C4 omnis as far apart as you can manage to get them, and the ck61 cardioid pair in the center as an X/Y pair rather than using just one ck61 facing directly forwards.   Here's the important key for trying that- use a narrow X/Y angle.  Pointing the X/Y cards at the stacks is probably your best bet, maybe even inside the stacks if not very far back when the X/Y angle might be greater than 90 degrees.  You want a rather narrow X/Y angle because you don't want the combined X/Y pattern of the two cardioids to grow overly wide (remember, we want as much isolation as possible from extraneous sound arriving from all other directions as possible in the center, so as to not loose too much forward isolation), plus you will be getting most of your overall stereo information from the spaced omnis anyway.  If you were only recording using one X/Y pair I'd argue for angling them something like 120 degrees apart.  But in this case, a touch of stereo width from that still rather mono X/Y center mic position really helps blend the contribution of the center seamlessly with what the omnis (or spaced and widely angled cardioids) provide, and lends some really helpful psychoacoustic stereo ques to the resulting stereo mix.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2016, 05:57:13 PM »
As for picking up additional mic(s), one advantage of these purposefully designed 3 and 4 mic arrays is that they take some pressure off the need to use really super high quality directional mics for making a recording of similar quality to one made with only a single stereo pair.  The spaced pair helps bury many of the artifacts heard from a less than Schoeps quality supercard in the center which may be obviously objectionable when that channel is listened to in isolation.  Similarly, even an otherwise good but otherwise thin-sounding supercard (or shotgun) without much low frequency sensitivity can work work fine in the center since the wide-spaced omnis (or cards) are pulling in all the nice stereo bass.  In fact, it can sometimes be advantageous to further low cut or EQ the response of the center mic so that it does not interfere with the low end from the wide pair.  Generally I'm more interested in a smooth good sounding mid and high frequency response from whatever mic is used in the center and don't care if it has any bass response. If it's spitty, resonant or 'hashy' sounding it's out.

Currently, I'm more than happy using a decent quality supercard in the center.  I'm satisfied with the ~$500 DPA I'm currently using for that over the more costly and delicate Microtech Gefell I was previously using. I've not tried a shotgun in that position myself (I don't have any) and although I'm curious to find out how much the use of one might further optimise the center contribution in terms of even greater isolation to see if that provides even greater vocal clarity and PA isolation in the center of the playback image, I haven't really felt doing so necessary.  I'd not hesitate to use a Schoeps CMIT in that position!  But I'd need to play around with lesser shotguns to assess the trade off between the increased directionality a shotgun would provide against the much better off-axis sound quality of a supercardioid in most cases.  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording experiments using the ck8 in the center compared to their other experiments using other mics in the center may shine more light on that.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline datbrad

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2016, 08:18:23 PM »
I sold my CK8s a long time ago because they sat unused for years once I got CK63s. They are inconsistent. I'd get Sennheisers if I was looking at shotguns. I think you should save up for hyper caps, you won't be sorry. Good luck!
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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2016, 11:29:23 PM »
I sold my CK8s a long time ago because they sat unused for years once I got CK63s. They are inconsistent. I'd get Sennheisers if I was looking at shotguns. I think you should save up for hyper caps, you won't be sorry. Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback, I'm thinking I'll ditch the CK8 option after hearing all this and reading some other reviews.  I hear you on the CK63's, but I hate to give up my CK 61's because I like them so much.  I'll likely keep an eye out for a good Sennheiser center mic. 
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2016, 11:42:01 PM »
GutBucket...
Thanks for all your time and effort responding to my post (and everyone else's for that matter).  You provided so much info that can be used now and in the future.  I think that given I already have a pair of omni's (SP C4) and a nice set of cards (461's), I'll look to add a center hyper mic.  This way I only have to pay for a single item to round out my rig for the time being. 
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2016, 09:29:23 AM »
I sold my CK8s a long time ago because they sat unused for years once I got CK63s. They are inconsistent. I'd get Sennheisers if I was looking at shotguns. I think you should save up for hyper caps, you won't be sorry. Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback, I'm thinking I'll ditch the CK8 option after hearing all this and reading some other reviews.  I hear you on the CK63's, but I hate to give up my CK 61's because I like them so much.  I'll likely keep an eye out for a good Sennheiser center mic.
Don't give up the ck61's Chris, they are so useful for what we do. Also, I don't have an investment in convincing you one way or the other, BUT, read what gutbucket is saying in his oddball techniques thread and what he wrote above. ONE ck8 or other shotgun (I'm advocating the DPA gut mentioned or a Sennheiser like I mentioned) plays a different role in this theory than using two in PAS. I submit that 2 guns in PAS, is just not going to yield "realistic" sound stage compared to two cards or two hypers in PAS (Location depending, of course). But the stereo zoom theory utilizes the center mic placement for the reason of filling in the hole in the middle typically found with split omni pairs.
Further reading of gutbucket's explanation of the theory reveals he doesn't advocate the supercardiod (or cardiod) in the middle. His applications have been with true supercardiods, while the ck8 is an interference tube that is closer to supercardiod than most shotgun mics. We own two ck8's and just decided to try it and found it has a place in certain locations/venues. (here's an example for you: https://archive.org/details/phil2016-03-15.414ck8.flac24 )
The key reason why we went ck8 in that room as opposed to ck61 is there is a huge natural hole in the middle at this venue. They have wide stacks almost to the walls by the proscenium plus there is a cupola or dome directly DFC above where the SBD and AUD mics usually get placed. We had so-so results there with other combos (DIN, MS) and tried the spaced Omni with ck8) It definitely made a difference-better vocals, more distinct drums and presence than the other recordings.
The typical 3 mic set up for stereo zoom would have split omnis and cardiod in the center.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.0                     That is the entire thread, but he has evolved the explanation around 2012, pages 8 or 9 or so in that thread. And do take advisement which gutbucket makes that these are different ways of thinking about live recording which might take some time to understand and adapt to both in the recording and in the listening (and it is definitely not for every situation or rig choice).

edit to clarify use of supercardiod is A-OK with the theory.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 07:52:13 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2016, 12:12:12 PM »
Any thoughts on these mics: Rode NTG1,2,or 4 for a center channel?  I like the ability to get now and make payments as I go that Zzounds allows and I only have these as options.
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2016, 12:34:12 PM »
Any thoughts on these mics: Rode NTG1,2,or 4 for a center channel?  I like the ability to get now and make payments as I go that Zzounds allows and I only have these as options.
I just took a look at these three. The NTG2 is just an NTG1 that uses AA's as well as P48. The performance specs are a bit "less" than the NTG1 which uses P12, P24 or P48 but very similar. If your choice is between those two I'd go with the NTG1 if you have P48 on your recorder.
OTH, the NTG4 is designed to roll off the low end which is tailored for ENG or filmsound location stuff BUT might be better for a middle mic in the 3/4 mic arrays we are discussing.

So, without knowing the costs I'd eliminate your choice to the NTG1 or NTG4. from what i read, the performance specs are best on the NTG1 vs the NTG4 (but very small difference-i.e. NTG1= sensitivity -36dB; NTG4=sensitivity -32dB) very slight favor to the NTG1 (higher negative number is "better" in terms of sensitivity).

Caveat- I've never used Rode's, so am only going by what I am reading.
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Offline JiB97

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2016, 01:12:03 PM »
posting in this thread as I now have 2 ck8s and can use any tips and tricks y'all got
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2016, 01:55:20 PM »
Further reading of gutbucket's explanation of the theory reveals he doesn't advocate the supercardiod in the middle, I/we just decided to try it and found it has a place in certain locations/venues.

I didn't mean to imply that at all, and if I did somewhere please point me to it. 

I totally dig a forward facing supercarioid in the center, it's my standard setup!
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2016, 02:18:54 PM »
Further reading of gutbucket's explanation of the theory reveals he doesn't advocate the supercardiod in the middle, I/we just decided to try it and found it has a place in certain locations/venues.

I didn't mean to imply that at all, and if I did somewhere please point me to it. 

I totally dig a forward facing supercarioid in the center, it's my standard setup!
Hey GB, I thought during some of our discussions you have mentioned that the theory is based on cardioids in the middle. That by using the AKG ck8 we were moving a bit beyond the theory and more toward "practical" application of the theory.
I do know you have used s few different supercardiods, so I shouldn't have made a statement about YOUR advocacy. But good to correct for Chris as he is making a purchasing decision now and it seems to be a Rode supercardiod.
As I said above, we have found using the ck8 has been beneficial more times than not. And on SAT at Greyfox we did a direct comparison by setting up the ck8 AND the ck61 facing forward. results have not been analyzed yet.
Sorry for misrepresenting either the theory, your advocacy of supercardiod or both!
Chris, obviously gutbucket is the go to here, I am only a guy who has used the techniques for about 16 months now.!     :yahoo:
music IS love

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2016, 06:21:44 PM »
Hey, I'm just stoked some tapers such as yourselves are finding these alternate approaches as valuable as I have!

I suppose the main working premise for selecting the optimal forward facing center microphone for these configuration should be choosing a microphone which is "as directional as possible, while still playing nice".  I currently think of the roll played by the center forward facing mic mostly as "surrogate for SBD", which may help explain the motivation for using a highly directional mic there as a way of focusing on getting the clearest direct sound from the stage and PA, while excluding as much audience noise and hall verb from that channel as possible.  I feel the directional-as-possible part is firmly established at this point, and it's the "still playing nice" part which isn't as well defined.  In my experimentation over the past decade, I've moved from using a center omni to using a slightly more directional sphere mounted omni, to a cardioid, and on to a supercardioid.  A supercardioid, which is the most directional first-order pickup pattern available, is the most directional pattern I've tried.  Moving further to an interference tube "shotgun mic" trades some of the the well behaved off-axis response of a supercardioid for further increased isolation.  I've yet to get a firm feel for where on the continuum pursuing further increased isolation in the center channel becomes overshadowed by increased off-axis coloration and timbre problems of using a shotgun, which is a determination that is always going to be somewhat subjective. Is more rejection actually needed? How bad is too badly behaved? Well it depends both on the situation and the esthetics of the recordist.

Rocksuitcase's and Kindms's recordings using a ck8 shotgun in the center mic roll are helping to explore that territory. 

With that in mind, perhaps the second part of that center mic selection premise should be the realist's take of- "usually best to use your better sounding directional microphone".  If you have a great cardioid and a crappy sounding shotgun, you'll probably get better results using your better sounding cardioid.   But fortunately here's something I've also found to be true- a well designed multi-microphone configuration can take some of the pressure off having to use a really top quality microphones all around the array.  Using just two mics places lots of responsibilities on those two mics, and its harder to escape the need for top quality microphones. They need to do a large number of different things well.  In these multi-microphone stereo configs each mic position represents a more specialized job, with all the mics working together as a team, partly covering for each other's weaknesses.  Four reasonably strong players can beat two superstars. But the coaching decisions become more involved!

I've said it before here, but I think it bears repeating that audience recording is an odd bird in the music recording world.  What concert tapers do is not closely related to studio recording at all, nor modern classical and film-score recording, and most sources of recording information available on the web or in books doesn't really apply directly.  It's perhaps closest to what would now be called 'minimalist' classical recording as it was done over half a century ago, even though the situations are very different and the gear is almost entirely different. 

These multi-microphone configs intended primarily for outdoor audience recording and I suppose best described as spaced pair plus center microphone configurations, are a sort of mindful combinations, evolutions, and blendings of a few different approaches.  The starting point is two wide spaced mics at least 3' apart.  From there there the main influences are a bit of Decca tree (3-omnis in a triangle), a lot of OCT (two sidways facing supercardioids with a cardioid in the center), informed by a lot of Michael Williams' multi-microphone array design (extensions to his original Stereo Zoom 2-channel ideas), all greatly influenced by David Griesinger ideas on multichannel recording and acoustics.  I've just worked to modify and adapt that stuff to the unusual backwater application of live music audience recording.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2016, 12:32:00 AM »
I'll say it again, thanks rocksuitcase and gutbucket for helping out and showing concern for others growth and purchasing intensions.   Rocksuitcase, I have listened to your last two shows posted on LMA (Del McCoury and Steep Canyon Rangers) to hear the 4 mic directional setup.  They sound good, and different given the LD vs SD center channels.  There are so many references out there, and I am taken aback at how experimental you all are in changing setups so often "hoping" for a good sound.  I am constantly afraid of screwing up a show due to experimentation. So, thanks for doing much of the experimental work for us!  Gutbucket...I enjoyed reading the evolution of your "alien" rig.  Something like that only works with those tiny DPA omni mics you have.  I'll likely switch from using my Studio Projects C4 omni mics to some affordable CA-11 omni's.   That way I can get the small, retractable antenna poles out wide and not intrude in the line of sight of others in attendance.  Also, my rig blew around a lot and was top heavy.  Not to mention, If it rained I'd need crazy umbrella setup like rocksuitcase used.

Regardless, I think i'll always keep my AKG 461's in the mix in case all else fails.  I'm thinking wide CA-11 omni's, center hyper/super cardioid, and my AKG's in DIN.  This will still leave my Studio Projects C4's to play with the center hypercard caps and omni caps (or for a second stage setup at a festival).  One thing I know is that I'll keep recording and continue posting!  Gracias!
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2016, 09:05:13 AM »
I'll say it again, thanks rocksuitcase and gutbucket for helping out and showing concern for others growth and purchasing intensions.   Rocksuitcase, I have listened to your last two shows posted on LMA (Del McCoury and Steep Canyon Rangers) to hear the 4 mic directional setup.  They sound good, and different given the LD vs SD center channels.  There are so many references out there, and I am taken aback at how experimental you all are in changing setups so often "hoping" for a good sound.  I am constantly afraid of screwing up a show due to experimentation. So, thanks for doing much of the experimental work for us!  Gutbucket...I enjoyed reading the evolution of your "alien" rig.  Something like that only works with those tiny DPA omni mics you have.  I'll likely switch from using my Studio Projects C4 omni mics to some affordable CA-11 omni's.   That way I can get the small, retractable antenna poles out wide and not intrude in the line of sight of others in attendance.  Also, my rig blew around a lot and was top heavy.  Not to mention, If it rained I'd need crazy umbrella setup like rocksuitcase used.

Regardless, I think i'll always keep my AKG 461's in the mix in case all else fails.  I'm thinking wide CA-11 omni's, center hyper/super cardioid, and my AKG's in DIN.  This will still leave my Studio Projects C4's to play with the center hypercard caps and omni caps (or for a second stage setup at a festival).  One thing I know is that I'll keep recording and continue posting!  Gracias!
Yes, the only thing I am hoping to contain is the top heaviness of the rig we are running. kindms came up with the umbrella configs in order to utilize our available clamps with the mic mounts on the Manfrotto bar.
I really like the antennae set up that gutbucket uses and would aim to find smaller more lightweight mics if we were to buy more mics (which is NOT in our plans for this year!)
Check out taperchris' recordings of Twiddle on the LMA, he often uses both CA cards and CA omnis, to check out the omni sound of them.
We have only had one line of sight issue with the large setup, someone behind us did complain at Greyfox with all the umbrellas and such. OTH, at Phish, everyone on the lawn was using the umbrellas for location reference! ("dude-meet me by the pole with umbrellas")
Thanks for the ups, it can be difficult to switch setups mid fest, but since kindms and I are fully interested to know what this concept will do to make great recordings, we have been lucky enough to pull off those options.
Again, these configs are not for everyone; one listener to the Phish 2016-07-01 commented on the "different ambience" of this type of recording but saying they liked it.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 10:26:35 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2016, 10:11:29 AM »
I'll likely switch from using my Studio Projects C4 omni mics to some affordable CA-11 omni's.   That way I can get the small, retractable antenna poles out wide and not intrude in the line of sight of others in attendance.  Also, my rig blew around a lot and was top heavy.

I hear that.  In addition to their fantastic sound, I really love the lightweight, compact, near invisible and weather robust nature of the miniature DPA mics.  And now that I've mostly settled on a few variations of the latest 6-channel oddball setup and verified that the miniature DPAs work nearly as well as the thoroughbred full-bodied MGs, I've thought seriously about putting together an otherwise identical low-cost secondary rig using six miniature Church, Naiant, and/or AT853 mics. I think it would work great.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2016, 03:28:44 PM »
Since I'm bored and trying to revive my interest in taping, I've been thinking about using my M300's as the main stereo pair and running an LD omni I have plus one of my CK-63 (hypers) down the middle this weekend outside. I'll use four tracks total that way and can bring in as much of each down the middle mic as needed to fill things out when mixing at home... I really like the bass I get with the omni and running a hyper-cardioid down the middle sounds like a good idea too for clarity.
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2016, 05:39:52 PM »
Give it a try Chuck, and have some fun with something new.

If your'e open to configuration suggestions for best results, the main thing is going to using significantly more space and angle between the M300's than you typically would when recording using that pair alone.  Don't sweat it if that's not doable, though.

Here's eight specific options for using three cardioids, all of which achieve a recording angle of +/- 60 degrees (120 overall) - http://www.mmad.info/MAD/5Ch/5ch_Surround/Card/All/FTC60/FTC60.htm
And here's seven options for three supercarioids, all of which achieve a recording angle of +/- 60 degrees (120 overall) - http://www.mmad.info/MAD/5Ch/5ch_Surround/Card/All/FTC60/FTC60.htm

[Edit to explain use of the links above- William's hasn't published the 3-microphone stereo curves on their own.  The links above are to the initial 3-mic front segment selection options for 5-microphone surround arrays, but the setup for 3-mic stereo is identical to the front 3 mics of these 5 mic surround setups.  When you select one of the seven or eight angle/spacing options by clicking on the corresponding chart image, that leads to another page of options for the 2 side/rear facing mics.  Click on any of those (doesn't matter which one) which links to a PDF showing the setup details, and simply ignore the extra 2 side/rear mics on the setup chart. 

Also, by going back one page on the MMAD website, one can select from other (all mostly wider) SRA angles than +/- 60 degrees.]


Yes, you're talking about using two cardioids with a supercard in the center (along with the omni), instead of three cardioids or three supercards, yet the optimal configuration for that (in terms of this William's SRA/stereo-zoom stuff) is going to lie somewhere between to the suggestions linked above.  All of William's multi-mic array charts indicate mics of identical pickup pattern for all positions around the array, so when using different mic patterns I compare a few similar charts like this, which use the mic angles and spacings I want, and which I can achieve, and sort of split the difference between them.  Getting in the ballpark is close enough. 

+/- 60 degrees (120 overall) is about as narrow a total SRA as the 3 microphone William's curves go, at least as far as the published array setups on his MMAD website (the carts for supercards go down to 110 degrees, but I linked to the 120 degree page so the comparison between cards versus supercards is clear and direct).   Of course the trend of the curves can be extrapolated to even narrower SRA's, which would be useful for us in concert taping a decent distance from the stage, but the spacing between mics then grow even wider, which most tapers aren't going to do.  Most of his published chart setups on that site are for larger SRAs, more appropriate for 'normal' music recording locations relatively close to an ensemble.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 10:40:25 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Chuck

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2016, 07:26:50 PM »
Hey, Gutbucket...

I used 26" spaced Audix omnis and PAS (9" spaced) CK-63's this weekend at Red Rocks for Blackberry Smoke, moe., and Gov't Mule. I really liked how beefy the recordings were. I blended them about 50/50 for these recordings....

https://archive.org/details/moe2016-08-25.4micmixV2
https://archive.org/details/bbs2016-08-25.4micmix
http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html#gm2016-08-25

That's what got me thinking about experimenting with multiple mics. What do you think about using two PAS hypers in the center rather than one down the middle? There are probably phase issues with two, but I'm quite happy with the results. ???
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2016, 08:17:31 PM »
Hey, Gutbucket...

I used 26" spaced Audix omnis and PAS (9" spaced) CK-63's this weekend at Red Rocks for Blackberry Smoke, moe., and Gov't Mule. I really liked how beefy the recordings were. I blended them about 50/50 for these recordings....

https://archive.org/details/moe2016-08-25.4micmixV2
https://archive.org/details/bbs2016-08-25.4micmix
http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html#gm2016-08-25

That's what got me thinking about experimenting with multiple mics. What do you think about using two PAS hypers in the center rather than one down the middle? There are probably phase issues with two, but I'm quite happy with the results. ???
Chuck, I just listened to the BBerry Smoke for 2 tunes and think the recording is quite nice. Definitely "full" sound quality as you mentioned. The Rocks can be a tough environment to record in- great job!
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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2016, 08:29:18 PM »
To the OP, I wouldn't really make drastic changes or spend a lot of money soley based on that HWA tape you made. I'm not saying a change up/addition of gear wouldn't be beneficial however. The advice given above is spot on and you'll make better tapes for sure. I couldn't hear his vocals when I taped them a year or so ago. my buddy just taped them last week too. He commented that Todd's vocals were buried and just not clear so there may not have been anything you could have done better. 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2016, 01:59:23 AM »
Those sound smokin' Chuck, love it. Thanks for the links.

I'd go so far as to say I think a pair of PAS hypers/supers in the center between spaced omnis is one of the best use of 4 AUD channels for most tapers outdoors.  I'd put the center pair in X/Y (or M/S).  I don't normally care for 90deg X/Y cards on their own except for close non-ambient stuff, but think of pushing the center pair to coincident as sort of a the inverse of spacing the outer mics further and/or angling them more when using a third mic position between them.  You get a rock-solid center anchored image, with phase-free level-based stereo cues in the middle of the playback stage from the X/Y center pair, enveloped in a big open and wide, time/phase-based stereo ambience from the omnis.  Four mics, but less potential phase weirdness from using only 3 mic locations rather than 4.

You links sound very natural to me, though, so keep doing what your're doing!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 09:33:43 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2016, 01:46:25 PM »
To the OP, I wouldn't really make drastic changes or spend a lot of money soley based on that HWA tape you made. I'm not saying a change up/addition of gear wouldn't be beneficial however. The advice given above is spot on and you'll make better tapes for sure. I couldn't hear his vocals when I taped them a year or so ago. my buddy just taped them last week too. He commented that Todd's vocals were buried and just not clear so there may not have been anything you could have done better.

Thanks, I agree.  I have recorded them in the past with the same issue.  In fact, I was listening to some other shows and can hear people in the audience yelling to turn up his mic.  I seem to have the same issue with Greensky Bluegrass as well.  I do want something (hypercard or shotgun) do point down the middle and see what comes of it.  I don't anticipate having enough expendable income to save up for high quality mics anytime soon, so I plan to keep mixing and matching cheaper mics until I find the configuration that works best for my ears and ease of use.

***Also, how about throwing up some pics in the Rig section for us visual learners.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 01:50:10 PM by CorFit Chris »
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Offline Brian G

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Re: Will AKG 460's with ck8 improve vocal clarity in recording?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2016, 03:59:47 PM »
There is a CK63 on ebay for $99 overseas seller.
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