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Offline Gutbucket

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Team classical recording
« on: June 20, 2009, 01:55:01 PM »
A thread for chamber, orchestral, choral, operatic, etc. music of any ethnicity. All acoustic sources, usually good to great venues, quiet respectful audiences, and the challenge of capturing that huge dynamic range of a full orchestra- there's a lot that makes these recording opportunities some of the most rewarding.

To start here is an interesting rig up at a chamber music concert I attended last fall.  Spaced omnis flanking a Schoeps KFM360- omni caps mounted flush in the surface on opposite sides of the sphere each with a forward facing figure-8 cap next to each, forming two sideways oriented M/S pairs.  The 4 capsules feed a dedicated matrix box which varies the four resulting mic patterns for stereo or 4 channel surround.  6 channels total for the main array with the omni outriggers. Additional stereo spot on the piano and two mics at the edge of the stage facing the audience. Quite a setup.  No it's not mine-


« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:36:16 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Carrera2

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 02:21:28 PM »
Great idea. Thanks for setting up the team thread.

Here's a link to a conversation about recording a woodwind quintet from a while back.

I'll try to post some pics, samples and discussion from my outing tonight. Gotta go pack!

Off topic: How do you create a hyperlink?

Edited to add: Thanks to the tutorial, I fixed the above link. It's been a while since I did any text-based coding of html.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 03:01:50 PM by Carrera2 »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 02:46:28 PM »
Say you want to make a link using this text. Copy the address to your clipboard, then highlight the word or phrase you'd like to serve as the link and click the hyperlink button above. That will look like this:
Code: [Select]
[url]this text[/url]   Edit the first part in brackets, the
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[url] at the beginning of the statement to read
Code: [Select]
[url=http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,123523.0.html]  The phrase stays between the ][ parts of the brackets, so the final code appears like this:
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[url=http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,123523.0.html]this text[/url].
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Carrera2

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 03:42:36 PM »

On the above set-up notice the NOS (or similar) coincident pair on the piano also.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 04:54:57 PM »
Good eye, yes the piano was spotted with a stereo pair.  There were also two SDC's at the extreme edge of the stage facing the audience.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline guosh86

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 11:28:04 PM »
thanks for setting up the thread!

nice pics, i don't think i'll ever get such a sophisticated rig - though i'm gonna try something more interesting in the near future!

just got back from a show last night, and was a kinda lazy setup on my part. just did 2 dpa 4090s in a-b and ran them into an mbox and into protools.
actually brought an 002 but the firewire was giving problems so we decided not to use it (its becoming a bit of a white elephant... all because we keep procrastinating about getting a new cable  :P)

geez the mbox pres are pretty darn noisy. haven't used it in quite a while but i really didn't like it yesterday. all in all it wasn't a great concert, the playing left something to be desired and it has to be the noisiest audience i've ever recorded as well. at times i was getting as much chatter from the audience as from the stage!

here are the pics - it was just a concert featuring various ensembles (woodwind, brass, horns, perc, saxes, etc.) from a high school band, so i thought it'd be good to go simple for this one since the positions keep changing

cheers,
guo

Offline guosh86

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 01:27:39 PM »
did a recording today of a chinese orchestra in my university auditorium

not very exciting really, just a main pair of mc930s in ortf (sometimes i'm not really sure my ortf config is right... it sounds funny now that i listen to the recordings) my rode nt5s for percussion spots, and a couple of sm57s as spots for various instruments mixed on the fly into a mackie mixer and into my T+ UA-5 and finally SPDIF to microtrack 2

somehow i'm not happy with my mic positioning, its not really working in this room so far. any comments just based on the pictures below? i usually don't have problems in larger spaces, but this one is really screwing me up big time due to limitations on where i can place my mics

wondering if omnis might do better.... hmmm.... never really got my ortf right i think, so i'm trying to see if i can get the placement right




Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 03:35:28 PM »
Are those photos showing things as set-up in the recording space, except for seating for the orchestra musicians?  ORTF pair just in front of the back wall behind what I assume is the conductor's platform and chair?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline notlance

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 10:03:26 PM »
did a recording today of a chinese orchestra in my university auditorium

not very exciting really, just a main pair of mc930s in ortf (sometimes i'm not really sure my ortf config is right... it sounds funny now that i listen to the recordings) my rode nt5s for percussion spots, and a couple of sm57s as spots for various instruments mixed on the fly into a mackie mixer and into my T+ UA-5 and finally SPDIF to microtrack 2

somehow i'm not happy with my mic positioning, its not really working in this room so far. any comments just based on the pictures below? i usually don't have problems in larger spaces, but this one is really screwing me up big time due to limitations on where i can place my mics

wondering if omnis might do better.... hmmm.... never really got my ortf right i think, so i'm trying to see if i can get the placement right

Joining the team and throwing in my $0.02 worth on the above mic placement.  If your mics were that close to the back wall, I don't think you will get any configuration to sound right.  You'll get some nasty reflections from the wall being so close to the mics, and you'll perhaps get some cancelation at certain frequencies.  You need some room behind the mics.  Sometimes when I'm recording in a small room I'll set up the orchestra on the diagonal so I can get some room behind the mics and behind the orchestra.

Offline guosh86

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 08:38:57 AM »
yep it was just the setup without the orchestra in place yet.  turns out my camera ran out of battery when the orchestra finally got in  >:(

i'll take more pics in a day or two with the same setup with a wind ensemble in place. problem being that there really isn't any space in the room to move. i'll just have to find some other way to mic it up i guess. any suggestions?

regarding the vertical riser... i'm not really sure where i can get one? i've been looking for one for quite a while actually, and right now i'm depending on the use of washers to raise my mic but it just isn't enough

could anyone post a pic of their ortf setup? i've been trying to get it as accurate as possible, even to the point of measuring out the 110 degree angle and the 17cm spacing. but i have a feeling i got the angle wrong still, and not really sure if the length is between the middle or the ends of the capsules

 regarding the angling of mics towards the ensemble... would you guys generally angle towards the middle of the ensemble? or do you have other positions? generally i tend to point towards the middle, about 3 feet above the head of the conductor, 3 feet behind. not much of a problem in the concert halls, but this room with the wall just behind my mics is really giving me problems

cheers :)

Offline Gutbucket

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classical recording discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 01:03:14 PM »
The pragmatist approach. Either way keeps the mic bodies from interfering with each other where they cross, making ORTF easier to setup with the mics in the same plane.  Without it one mic is forced to point slightly upwards the other downwards.

For this particular room, I'd suggest trying a setup with considerably less angle between the mics, compensating for that with more spacing between them. DIN for instance has a slightly smaller angle between mics and a greater spacing.  As a side bonus, for anything DIN or wider you won't need the mic riser or over/under technique.   But I'd try going even wider with less angle than DIN.  You could use your cardioid pair like spaced omnis and cut down significantly on the contribution of the sound bouncing off that back wall.  The more angle between the mics, the less the stereo pair acting together will limit pickup of sound bouncing off the back wall.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 02:11:37 PM by Brian Skalinder »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 01:38:05 PM »
Here's my approach to thinking about the problem. My apologies if you already have a thorough understanding of how this works, but hopefully it will help someone or at least spark a conversation.  In any case it helps me to get it clear by thinking it though enough to describe it.  This starts with the Stereo Zoom idea but goes much farther. A philosophy of mic setup?   :-\ ;)

I'll assume that the orchestra as viewed from the mic stand all fit well within, say, a 120º angle and that you are using a pair of cardioid mics for your stereo pair.  You can choose various combinations of the angle and spacing between mics which all have an angle of pickup of 120º.  If you just choose angles and spacings randomly then the angle of pickup changes, but if you are careful about which combinations you choose, the pickup angle remains constant and you only change other variables.. like how your stereo pair handles the reverberant pickup of the room in the remaining 240º.

For any particular angle of pickup (my assumed 120º angle into which the orchestra fits as viewed from the mic stand) the relationship between the angle between the mics and their spacing forms a continuum - one end of that continuum is X/Y with a very wide angle between mics and no distance at all between them, using the directionality of the mic pattern alone to produce stereo. The other end of the continuum is no angle at all between mics (both facing straight ahead) and a good amount of spacing, which treats the mics as if they were a pair of spaced omnis, using the only time of arrival differences between them for producing stereo.  As mentioned, you can choose any point between those two extremes, trading angle for distance and maintaining the 120º pickup angle.  This is what Michael Williams' Stereo Zoom technique is all about.  If you want a 120º pickup angle (he calls it SRA- or stereo recording angle and writes 120º as +/-60º) with cardioid mics, you can refer to his cardioid chart and read spacing and angle combinations off the +/-60º curve of the graph.  For instance you might choose to set your mics up in X/Y @ 140º, or 14cm @ 90º, or 32cm @ 45º, or 44cm @ 0º (mics pointing straight ahead).  All of those combinations have a 120º pickup angle.  ORTF, DIN, NOS and others are just commonly used points on various SRA curves.

Williams charts are set-up to let you choose between angles and spacings for a certain SRA using a particular pickup pattern.  They also tell you a little bit about how even the distribution of instrument sources across the playback stage will be within that pickup and playback angle.  But other than that they don't tell you anything about why you might choose one combination over another.  One perhaps obvious, or at least fairly often discussed choice is a preference for either the sharper imaging of mic setups that rely primarily on level differences generated by mic pattern or the less sharp imaging but deeper and spacious sound of setups that primarily use the spacing between mics to record time of arrival differences.  Rarely discussed and I'd argue more important, especially for less than ideal situations such as this one, is the effect on the reverberant pickup of everything outside of the SRA.  I feel the sound of the room and the correct balance of that contribution with the direct sound is the most critical aspect when choosing a setup.  For me, the real value of the Stereo Zoom concept is providing the ability to hold the pickup angle variables constant and change how the reflections and reverberation in the room are recorded.

As far as the Stereo Zoom is concerned, two cardioids spaced 44cm apart and pointing straight ahead with no angle between them and two omnis spaced 44cm act identically.  They produce the same SRA and distribution of sound sources between the speakers.  But we all know they'll sound very different. One reason for that is the cardioid pair is angled so that the mics reject all sound arriving from directly behind them as a pair, whereas the omni pair doesn't favor any particular direction.

What I'm suggesting is to 'read between the lines' of the Stereo Zoom info and using it to consider ways of setting up your mics to reduce the negative aspects of the recording environment.  You could use your cardioid pair like spaced omnis and cut down significantly on the contribution of the sound bouncing off that back wall.  The more angle between the mics, the less the stereo pair acting together will limit pickup of sound bouncing off the back wall.

I find the Stereo Zoom relationship between mic pickup pattern, distance and angle between the mics very interesting and relatively easy to get an feel for.  Most recordists develop an instinctive understanding of the concept even if they may not have a clear intellectual idea of what is going on or if they've never heard of the Stereo Zoom stuff. The part that fascinates me is the huge contribution of everything outside of the Stereo Zoom SRA.  The idea of choosing a setup to cut down on the sound bouncing off the back wall is part of that.  Other important factors that I'm trying to understand more completely are the nature of the the reverberant and reflective contribution from 'that other 240º'.  Questions like: how much of the reverberance from the rest of the room is recorded as mono vs stereo information?  Were does that reverberance and room reflections appear in the stereo soundstage illusion on playback?  How differently does the stereo pair capture reverberance and reflections from above and below as opposed to the side or back. If this sounds interesting you might take a look at a thread I posted last fall which gets into that: Why Blumlein sounds more spacious than other coincident or near-so arrays The link there to Stan Linkwitz's page on Mapping from recording to playback is pretty easy to understand and explains why 48% of the total reverberation of the room is captured as mono reverberation using an ORTF pair. 

Everything I've mentioned so far considers only sound on the horizontal plane. Lnkwitz only looks at the horizontal plane as I recall, yet reverberant sound comes from all directions.  When considering the entire 3-D pickup of a stereo pair in a real room, that 48% mono reverberation figure for ORTF would be much higher still.  Michael Williams' 1991 AES paper91st AES Convention in New York - Preprint 3155« Early Reflections and Reverberant Field Distribution in Dual Microphone Stereophonic Sound Recording Systems » does a good job of explaining what happens above and below the horizontal plane.  This one was enlightening for me with 3-D analysis of both individual mics and of stereo pairs.  In most cases, the farther the source of sound is above or below the horizontal plane of the mics, the more it is recorded as mono instead of stereo information, and that happens surprisingly rapidly.

This spring I ran across another excellent paper by Geoff Martin that he's made available on his website which goes further in depth: General Response Characteristics of Microphone Configurations.  If the Linkwitz page and the Williams papers make sense, then take a look at this one. It is quite technical and through. Even if reading the whole paper is not your thing, you may get something out of checking out the colored globe images that illustrate the 3-D pickup of stereo pairs and analyzes what I'm getting at. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 01:50:08 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline guysonic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 06:38:43 PM »
As shown by posts many mic array technics and positional tacts exist for doing classical music recordings.  My tact is for using HRTF mic array with DSM-6S/H or /M model mics either headworn or baffle mounted.

Advantage to HRTF array with these mics is widest 5-40,000Hz mic bandwidth, consistent natural sound and precise imaging, ease of mic placement as heard sound is always the recorded sound, and low cost of mic system that competes easily with most costly mics and array systems available.

Of course the proof is in the recordings produced by the various mics/arrays so I have posted many raw classical recordings done with HRTF arrayed DSM model mics for comparison purposes, and just for pure listening pleasure for classical music fans.

Many performance/session recordings exist on page: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

The classical music of most interest to this team are listed by title in top-to-bottom page order and I encourage fans of this type of music to give some or all titles a listen. 

Hayden Cello #5 Jim Dukey, Rec.Eng/Musician Cello, Violin, & Symphony Orchestra Recording: DSM-6S/M + DSM-GUY

Classical/Jazz/Acoustic Sampler - Recorded by Jim Dukey with DSM-GUY Cello, Violin, Saxophone, Duets, Trio + Big Band

HIGHLY RATED MULTI-TRACK MIX DESTROYS TCHAIKOVSKY INTERPRETATION !!!

The Air Force Band of the Golden West

Eliane Lust plays 'Chopin Nocturne'

Rochester Oratoric Society: A CARIBBEAN CONCERT

Lyle Lovett Acoustic Orch.Concert, Snitzer Hall, Portland OR '94...DOWNLOAD Set One 70:51Min 113Meg DOWNLOAD Set Two 82:54Min 105Meg

Ives Piano Sonata Paul Hekman's 1999 Pipe Organs of Europe Tour

Piano - Violin Live Performance Recorded with LiteGUY + DSM-6S/H mic + PA-24NJ preamp + Microtrack deck @ 24bit/88.2k

CARMEN: 5:33Min/7.4Meg Excerpts 2003 OPERA Recorded in large auditorium distant audience seat~17-20th row; DSM-6S/EH mic+PA-24NJ+PCM-M1 DAT

St. James Cathedral Sacred Music Festival Clips Multiple Organ, Choral, Orchestra


"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 07:03:56 PM »
Headworn miniature omnis like Guysonic sells do a good job of accurately recording the actual sound of the room from the listening position. 

In goush86's application the actual sound of the room in the mic position is probably not ideal with that wall so close.  If he had some miniature/lavaliere/binaural omnis I'd suggest simply taping them up against the wall to form a boundary-mounted spaced omni pair. That would completely eliminate any interference off the back wall.  In fact it would use the wall to his advantage through the boundary effect, both increasing the mics sensitivity and the direct/reverberant ratio from that position in the room.  Unfortunately, he didn't mention having any miniature omnis available.

I've had very nice results with that technique the few times I've used it, mounted on walls much farther back in the room.  MFrench has also done this for classical music recording, maybe he can post a photo.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline guosh86

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 12:11:23 AM »
great suggestions Lee!

i never really considered these options actually, since the usual ORTF has gotten me by pretty decently whenever i had to use cardoids  ;D i tried to access william's stereo zoom theory on the mics & setup page but that link was down so thanks for posting a working link here!

i'll go read up on it (just downloaded the file) and see what i can do for tonight's rehearsal. i might even try the boundaries.... think my friend has some naiants somewhere, so i'll try to borrow them and tape them down. but i probably can't get them tonight so i'll try adjusting the mic position and angles.

sometimes i just feel like being lazy and sticking some binaural's on the conductor's head and give him what he hears  :P but i don't think i'd really like to hear that either! even the conductor complains that the sound in the auditorium sounds funny, so much so that i'm always too loud (i'm a bass trombonist. i don't know how the acoustics work but it makes the bass trombone really loud in there...)

i'll take some pics tonight of the setup... haven't decided what to do yet, will go read up more and try it out later. i'll update what setup i use later! probably just a stereo pair, and i'll use a different setup per half and hopefully post some samples


regarding the chinese orchestra, i've got a sample track here:  http://download.yousendit.com/UmNJbGtDeFUyWGNLSkE9PQ
don't mind the overwhelming spots on that one though, didn't get the levels right. turned them down considerably after that

cheers,
guo

 

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