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Author Topic: AKG repair and matching  (Read 6835 times)

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Offline Phil Zone

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AKG repair and matching
« on: June 21, 2015, 04:39:02 PM »
I have 2 akg 460s with ck 61 and 63s.

Here's my question. Does anyone know if there is somewhere I can send them to for a check up followed by any repairs if needed? Also is there someone who would also be able to match the capsules so they are balanced or matched if you will? Let me know if that doesn't make any sense


Thank you
Microphones: AKG 460B, 480B, Naiant Actives,CK61,CK62,CK63, CK69, Busman BSC-1, CA-14
Preamps: (3) Naiant Littlebox, Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: (2) Zoom F6, Tascam DR-05

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2015, 07:57:32 PM »
I've used Mr. Land in the past and had good results with my old 460's...I have heard others that were not pleased with his LD mic repairs...but not sure of both sides of the issue...I used his service in 2012

http://www.akgmicrepair.com/

He replaced the Caps on my CK61's at the same time to make a stereo pair and replaced a bad Preamp board on one body...IIRC it was $400 for Two Caps and $400 for the preamp board. Note that the matching is done on HIS reference body...not yours so if there is difference in performance/age/components of YOUR bodies there may be slight differences
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Offline Phil Zone

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 04:26:30 PM »
I sent them off to him today, I'm hoping this doesn't get to expensive...
Microphones: AKG 460B, 480B, Naiant Actives,CK61,CK62,CK63, CK69, Busman BSC-1, CA-14
Preamps: (3) Naiant Littlebox, Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: (2) Zoom F6, Tascam DR-05

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Offline hi and lo

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 04:50:14 PM »
I apologize in advance because I know this will sound cold, but the only comment I can make is we told you so... many times. In the grand scheme of high-end microphones, AKGs are not expensive and buying used opens yourself up to all kinds of risk. We don't like to admit it as a community, but the yard sale is where many people have gone to dump their knowingly broken equipment. It's happened too many times to count. The risk simply isn't worth it.

I think this akin to the saying, "don't step over dollars to pick up pennies." In the 11 months your ISO was active (here), you could have saved up the dough and purchased capsules new. Instead, you're going to spend significantly more in the end. I genuinely hope there isn't anything significantly wrong with them. Best of luck with the repairs.

Not very likely.  I had a b*tch of a time locating them and bough both pairs new in the end.  For what I might have saved, buying new was worth every last cent.


I know but I just can't afford new ones

Not very likely.  I had a b*tch of a time locating them and bough both pairs new in the end.  For what I might have saved, buying new was worth every last cent.


I know but I just can't afford new ones

I agree 100% with Adrian, Cam ;) Just buck up and buy new. And I know MANY will disagree with me, but IMHO, ck63 hypers are more versatile than cards :P ;D ;) I owned only ck61s from 1999-2003, and when I bought NEW. Ck63s in 2003, my recordings went from consistently good to consistently GREAT ;) I have ran hypers from onstage, to fob/DFC, to far away in arenas, and they ALWAYS kicked ass. You can just PAS with hypers in shitty venues and locations and you'll at least come away with a decent recording. I can't always saya the same about cards. Plus you'll get less chatter in ALL of your recordings ;)

So if j can get used cards and hypers for 600-700, that's better and doable instead of 1200 for the hypers and cards.

I paid $461 with free shipping for my CK61's back in May and just paid $478 with free shipping for my CK63's last month.   That's under $940 for the pair.
 
Comparatively, the hypers are going for around $375-$400 used and the cards around $300-$325.  At $725, I'd sooner pay $200 more and buy new -- knowing that both my pairs have been handled properly.

I absolutely agree, but that $215 is money I wish to have, I really just assume hold out and save the money, since I don't have it. But what I would do for some new ones.

Anyone out there want to donate some new ones? I'm more than happy to accept!  ;D

Offline hi and lo

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2015, 04:54:19 PM »
One other thing. Microphones cannot be matched post-assembly as there is nothing to be adjusted. Matching is a trial and error process; make a batch of microphones, test each individual unit, and sell the units that are naturally matched within a certain specification range. As microphones age, they can drift to the point where they are no longer within matching specification and there is no way to repair or readjust them.

Offline DSatz

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2015, 07:48:26 PM »
hi and lo, that's more often true than false. But sometimes one microphone in a pair has been damaged or has deteriorated and perhaps the owner doesn't realize it. In that case a repair can improve the match between that pair of microphones at least somewhat.

With professional-quality condenser microphones of any given make and model, capsules vary more than amplifiers. Also, performance-altering damage happens to capsules far more often than it happens to amplifiers. This is why, for example, Schoeps sells matched pairs of capsules, but they don't match amplifiers; those come out so similar that there's no real need (but see below re: matching capsule sensitivity and amplifier gain).

The AKG C 460 series also has simple, sonically neutral circuitry with frequency response that doesn't vary enough to be audible unless something is seriously wrong. What does vary slightly are the gain, overload point and noise level. For the mikes that they actually manufacture (not the ones made in China), as an estimate let's say that almost any two C 460 amplifiers from the same year are probably within ~1.5 dB for all important parameters. With capsules, however, the tolerance limits are greater; as an equally wild-ass guess, for the better AKG models I'd widen that to ~2.5 dB (the main parameters being frequency response, particularly toward the ends of the audio spectrum, and sensitivity as measured on axis at 1 kHz).

If both capsules of a pair are working well and have similar frequency response, but their sensitivities differ, and so do the gains of the two amplifiers in the pair, then it matters which capsule is used on which amplifier. There's a 50/50 chance that a technician can improve the match between the microphones simply by measuring their gains and sensitivities and with the pieces combined both ways.

If two amplifiers are very different in gain, this can sometimes be due to internal settings (especially for microphones with output transformers and/or build-out resistors); a technician can set them to be alike. Or if that's not the issue, sometimes it pays to replace the FET in an amplifier (along with its bias resistor(s)) even though the existing FET is basically OK, if the gain of one amplifier is near the tolerance limit in either direction and the other amplifier isn't.

The biggest intervention of all would be to rebuild one or both capsules. This should be done only by the factory or by someone with access to identical parts and techniques (a nearly non-existent situation despite some people's claims to the contrary). This entails a large risk, but if one or both capsules were out of spec before, the match could well improve. I've had that experience with a pair of over-40-year-old microphones for which the capsules were rebuilt at the factory; I now have a nearly-matched pair of good sounding mikes, whereas for many years before, they were good sounding, but not well matched as a pair.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 06:52:21 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Phil Zone

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 08:45:22 PM »
I don't want to come across as aggressive here first off.

I never said anything was wrong with anything all I asked was, is there somewhere good I can send my mics to be check and repaired as needed as I like to know my mics are in good functional order. So the I told you so comment was not really warranted especially since 2 new bodies with caps is $2000 and the other caps would be $600 totaling in $2600. Therefore if I bought my mics which were $900 for the bodies and 4 caps that is $1700 I saved. Richard quoted me that I could get the caps totally replaced internally for $230 so even if every cap was broken totally (which they aren't) it would be $920. So even at that I have saved $780. And if the bodies are broken I won't even get them fixed. I can get actives for around $500 so would still have saved $280. Therefore through all that it is cheaper than buying new. Plus I know my ck61 are fine it's just one of my ck63 has been funky, but it may be a contact problem. So with all this I still will have saved money and have basically brand new everything. So it's not an I told you so on me at all, do some reaseach and thought before you attack like that. I always think my purchases out extremely well and I budget my money very tight, like I always say the most important part to me is the show and that is where my money goes.

Also I have bought numerous things in the yard sale and I think everyone I have bought from with one exception has been upfront and very fair. People don't use it as a trash can at all, and most of the time when I have a question I can ask them about the item even years after I have bought it. I thank everyone who has helped me since I started (I was very oblivious when I started :P)

No one take offense to this if they do, I'm sorry.
Microphones: AKG 460B, 480B, Naiant Actives,CK61,CK62,CK63, CK69, Busman BSC-1, CA-14
Preamps: (3) Naiant Littlebox, Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: (2) Zoom F6, Tascam DR-05

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Offline hi and lo

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 09:04:46 PM »
Definitely. I should not have hastily said "repair and readjust" because obviously it is possible to rebuild some capsules and there are also downstream components that can cause divergence. More than anything, I just want to make sure it is abundantly clear that nearly all of the capsules commonly used by, specifically, tapers cannot be matched via internal adjustments. You can't open one up, turn a screw, and predictably alter the frequency response to match another capsule. This particular question has been asked numerous in the past, almost always in the context of purchasing two random capsules and hoping they can be turned into a matched pair at a savings.

I'm sure it's splitting hairs, but I don't consider repairs and rebuilds to be a part of the matching process. Certainly not in the way we tend to think of tightly matched factory pairs optimized for stereo recording. There is no argument that if a repair will "tend to make the pair of microphones more similar to one another again" then it should be done, but I think that process is better described as repair than matching. If a technician can simply tell you which capsule to use with which amplifier, then it can yield a huge benefit. I'm a huge fan of measurements, but really that's just a band aid for a poorly matched or potentially broken stereo pair.

In my own anecdotal experience, I would rate AKG's quality control and capsule consistency within the CK6x line as average at best. It's not terrible and certainly they are a reputable brand, but are no where close to the consistency of say Schoeps. You can't buy these capsules as matched pairs to begin with and it's not uncommon for tapers to end up with two capsules thousands of serial numbers apart and several dB apart (and if they're in the yard sale, that statement is always followed by "but they still sound great!").

In contrast, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've heard someone complain about audible differences in unmatched Schoeps capsules. You've got more experience than I do, so you might disagree, but I tend to think of their consistency as light-years ahead in comparison. There have been tapers that have used unmatched capsules with near perfect results.

Sorry if my reaction was too strong or inaccurate. I'm just in full agreement with warnings that buying used AKG CK6x capsules is a huge gamble versus buying new.


Offline hi and lo

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 09:56:23 PM »
No worries, I'm just not one to beat around the bush. Since you've already sent them off and are "hoping it doesn't get too expensive," I don't think it's unreasonable to presume there may be something seriously wrong. I've also got think that if you've already received a quote for a complete capsule rebuild, then it is all the more likely. I truly hope this isn't the case and I don't mean for this to be an I told you so, but we absolutely should not downplay the risks of buying used.

Richard quoted me that I could get the caps totally replaced internally for $230...

I think this is a terrible idea and the only person that should doing this work is an AKG technician at the factory. I'm sure others will agree, but YMMV. I'm not specifically criticizing Richard's work here, but capsule repair is not the kind of thing that a third party using after market or NOS parts should ever be doing unless it is the very last option available. He's fine to test and take measurements, but beyond that there is no reason to spend good money when a guaranteed new capsule with warranty can be had for $70 more. If comes to this, the end result will unfortunately be a substantial loss and not a savings.

I can't conflate the used and new prices of capsules versus bodies. No one is purchasing 460 bodies new and buying them used today is, without question, a huge savings over their original msrp. Heck, you could practically buy another set of caps with the saving, but the same does not hold true for CK6x capsules. For the typical cost savings of used capsules vs. new, you can barely buy a few accessories. For one product buying used makes sense and for the other it does not. Apples to oranges.

And can you put a price on having to sit on the bench? What would happen if you missed the show of a lifetime or when this turns into a string of disasters, which can often be the case when repairs are involved. How many times has someone told you something was fixed, only to find out it wasn't? Happens all the time.


People don't use it as a trash can at all...

This is absolutely not true.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 10:01:38 PM by hi and lo »

Offline acidjack

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 10:06:08 PM »
No worries, I'm just not one to beat around the bush. Since you've already sent them off and are "hoping it doesn't get too expensive," I don't think it's unreasonable to presume there may be something seriously wrong. I've also got think that if you've already received a quote for a complete capsule rebuild, then it is all the more likely. I truly hope this isn't the case and I don't mean for this to be an I told you so, but we absolutely should not downplay the risks of buying used.

Richard quoted me that I could get the caps totally replaced internally for $230...

I think this is a terrible idea and the only person that should doing this work is an AKG technician at the factory. I'm sure others will agree, but YMMV. I'm not specifically criticizing Richard's work here, but capsule repair is not the kind of thing that a third party using after market or NOS parts should ever be doing unless it is the very last option available. He's fine to test and take measurements, but beyond that there is no reason to spend good money when a guaranteed new capsule with warranty can be had for $70 more. If comes to this, the end result will unfortunately be a substantial loss and not a savings.

I can't conflate the used and new prices of capsules versus bodies. No one is purchasing 460 bodies new and buying them used today is, without question, a huge savings over their original msrp. Heck, you could practically buy another set of caps with the saving, but the same does not hold true for CK6x capsules. For the typical cost savings of used capsules vs. new, you can barely buy a few accessories. For one product buying used makes sense and for the other it does not. Apples to oranges.

And can you put a price on having to sit on the bench? What would happen if you missed the show of a lifetime or when this turns into a string of disasters, which can often be the case when repairs are involved. How many times has someone told you something was fixed, only to find out it wasn't? Happens all the time.


People don't use it as a trash can at all...

This is absolutely not true.

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Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Offline Phil Zone

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 10:07:29 PM »
Richard is a akg certified repairman, so he knows his stuff and is the man for repairs and he used all genuine akg parts, so I trust him he he not a hacker and I wouldn't consider him 3rd party.

I also have 4 other pairs of mics so I'm not to worried about missing a show. My busmans are my favorite at the moments anyways so it's not a big deal to me.

When this is all over I only expect to have an issue with one capsule at most, so it should be around $300 when all is done ideally. I'll keep you posted on what happens.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 10:09:04 PM by Phil Zone »
Microphones: AKG 460B, 480B, Naiant Actives,CK61,CK62,CK63, CK69, Busman BSC-1, CA-14
Preamps: (3) Naiant Littlebox, Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: (2) Zoom F6, Tascam DR-05

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Offline hi and lo

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 10:25:17 PM »
Richard is a akg certified repairman, so he knows his stuff and is the man for repairs and he used all genuine akg parts, so I trust him he he not a hacker and I wouldn't consider him 3rd party.


This is the YMMV part. You may think this is acceptable, but when it comes to capsule rebuilds I absolutely do not. Certified repairman is not the same when it comes to this kind of work. It's not a washing machine.

Oddly enough, didn't you already go through this once buying used? I think this is case in point as to the dangers of buying used. What ever happened to those mics, anyways?

Offline Gordon

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 10:25:27 PM »
Others have had good experiences with Richard. I did not. I sent him some ck61's for a checkup & he sent them back with the capsule pin bent on one of them and it broke off the first time I screwed it onto a body. He eventually made it right but.......


Edit: I found the emails with Richard. I honestly forgot why I sent them in. I bought a second set of 480 bodies. Where the cap screws in the body was ever so slightly "bent/crooked". That is why I sent them in. I sent my ck61's along for a "check up".

He assured me the body did not need repaired and the caps were fine. He sent them back to me and the first time I took the cap off the pin broke off.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 11:10:40 PM by Gordon »
Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II @ 32/48

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Offline carlbeck

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 11:33:23 PM »
Others have had good experiences with Richard. I did not. I sent him some ck61's for a checkup & he sent them back with the capsule pin bent on one of them and it broke off the first time I screwed it onto a body. He eventually made it right but.......


Edit: I found the emails with Richard. I honestly forgot why I sent them in. I bought a second set of 480 bodies. Where the cap screws in the body was ever so slightly "bent/crooked". That is why I sent them in. I sent my ck61's along for a "check up".

He assured me the body did not need repaired and the caps were fine. He sent them back to me and the first time I took the cap off the pin broke off.

I hate to jump on the bandwagon here but I purchased a C34 on eBay as a non working mic that needed capsule replacement according to Land. The original owner sent it in for diagnosis & repair to Land but never got around to having it repaired. I received it with a quote from Land for both capsule replacements as well as a $90 credit towards the repair. I decided against sending it to Land for repair & instead decided to send it to John Peluso since he is very familiar with the mic having owned them in the past & most importantly still having one to test it against. When Peluso inspected the microphone it did indeed require capsule replacement but the springs that hold the caps in place were missing, perhaps left on the bench at Land with the thought that the microphone was being repaired shortly. Regardless John is having difficulty locating the replacement items, the capsules are available new from AKG (new 451's) or aftermarket but the springs are not. John has a contact overseas who can locate the parts. Fortunately it hasn't been a priority for me since I have other mics to use so I'm not worried, it will be fixed when it is fixed but if this was my only microphone & with it being a vintage piece I would be extremely upset. As a side note I decided not to send it back to AKG since I couldn't be assured it would be repaired properly there either due to the missing items. Again, I don't want to pile on here but this has been my experience so far with this one particular microphone.

Either way you've sent yours off & I wish you the best of luck. As consumers we assume everything will be ok when sent to an authorized repair center & in fact we deserve a quality repair when we pay out hard earned cash but sometimes that happens while other times it doesn't. Again, I wish nothing bad on you or your experience with Land just stating my particular situation.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2015, 08:21:46 PM »
what was the verdict?

Offline Phil Zone

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2015, 10:32:25 PM »
Came back as all both bodies good, ck61 caps were good but old so lost a little transparency but nothing more than a db or two. The ck61 that I though was bad, was indeed bad and would have cost 220 for the repair so I'm just going to sell the single and get a new pair most likely. Bill came to around $180 so I'm glad that I know That the bodies are good and the ck61 are good.
Microphones: AKG 460B, 480B, Naiant Actives,CK61,CK62,CK63, CK69, Busman BSC-1, CA-14
Preamps: (3) Naiant Littlebox, Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: (2) Zoom F6, Tascam DR-05

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Offline picklemic

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Re: AKG repair and matching
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2015, 08:54:44 PM »
Others have had good experiences with Richard. I did not. I sent him some ck61's for a checkup & he sent them back with the capsule pin bent on one of them and it broke off the first time I screwed it onto a body. He eventually made it right but.......


Edit: I found the emails with Richard. I honestly forgot why I sent them in. I bought a second set of 480 bodies. Where the cap screws in the body was ever so slightly "bent/crooked". That is why I sent them in. I sent my ck61's along for a "check up".

He assured me the body did not need repaired and the caps were fine. He sent them back to me and the first time I took the cap off the pin broke off.

If you ask me, Land is a hack that will charge you $75 a microphone and tell you the caps are bad and he doesn't think he can find replacements. Just cause it maybe easier than to actually diagnose it.

Sent it to AKG with them knowing it went to Land and it was not the caps it was the internal rechargeable had leaked on the board and needed an expert. Both fixed for around $100.

Called up my Credit Card and pointed out that Land charged me $150 for 2 microphones he could not fix and the bill from AKG for the repair and after a short interaction I had got $150 credited back to my account. YMMV  ::)

   
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