Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: fivefishdiy on August 12, 2008, 06:26:04 PM
-
This is a continuation of the original thread here...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105112.0.html
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/2715190070_2ae96b6393_o.jpg)
Post away...
UPDATE:
Latest photo.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/2897191138_414449d591_o.jpg)
-
:smoking2:
-
@fivefish
good response to the micbuilder post
I'm glad to hear the problem was with a different pre and was solved
too bad people don't have the wherewithal to do more than skim something and make accusations
it's endemic among internet armchair experts
keep up the great work!
we're all rooting for you
:)
-
Since the TS-2 is still in the design stage, if space limitations allow, would it be possible to put the vu meter on/off switch so it sits above but between the two rows of lights? Then if you included five switches, they could run (l-r) HPF, -20db pad, vu, phantom and power. (those five are the options I would find most useful).
-
another +T for what has been the most interesting thread 8)
-
would it be possible to put the vu meter on/off switch so it sits above but between the two rows of lights?
I tried. the soldered terminals (of the switch) at the bottom of the board will interfere with the vertically mounted VU meter boards.
I only have 1" height to work with here.
another +T for what has been the most interesting thread
Thanks all!
I hope the number of +Ts I have = the number of sales I'll have ;D ;D ;D (okay, I'm dreaming)
-
.
-
Looks freekin' sweet! Glad to have you around! +T!
Terry
-
Just marking this thread, carry on.
-
80Hz seems to be the magic number popping up often.
What's the dB/octave? 6, 12, 18?
Is a steep or shallow rolloff preferable?
I'm leaning towards 6dB/oct so we don't kill too much of the low end.
How about a compromise... 100Hz (in between 80 and 120Hz) at 6dB/oct?
Given the responses of the others I think 80 @ 12 dB / octave would be reasonable (and it's the same as the Sound Devices 302 and I think the MixPre 80 Hz/6dB setting is a little wimpy).
digifish
-
.
-
.
You want micro-switches? ;D
-
.
You want micro-switches? ;D
just taggin the thread :). OK, so I'll try to add something.
That is a really nice looking unit. Definitely put a switch to turn off the meter or maybe have a metering mode switch between regular meters and a dimmed short hold on peak. I really like that feature on the 722 and always wanted it on the V3.
-
Tagging the new thread
+T DIY!
-
Wow, I had to be away from things for a day, and the discussion really heated up!
I'm very glad to see HPF is back on the table. :) Personally, I'd really vote for a 6db slope -- 12 or 18 seems more like what you want for ENG, not music taping. Something like 80-100hz is probably ideal. 80hz = 3db down, 9db at 40hz, and 15db down at 20hz. That doesn't seem wimpy to me, but 12db could work ok too, though in that case I'd vote for a 50-60hz knee. Of course, if some internal jumpers like the Grace V3 are possible for choosing 6db or 12db, that would probably be great, though it may well be asking too much in terms of versatility vs cost.
One extra switch available? I think it'd be totally cool if you could have a switch to choose to run the preamp with the transformer inputs sometimes and run the preamp with no transformers and capacitor coupling the other times -- make it like two distinct preamp flavors in one!
As usual, keep up all the great work and thanks for keeping us as part of your process. :)
-
I cast my vote for 100Hz -12dB/oct slope
good for wind and low freq rumble
-
One extra switch available? I think it'd be totally cool if you could have a switch to choose to run the preamp with the transformer inputs sometimes and run the preamp with no transformers and capacitor coupling the other times -- make it like two distinct preamp flavors in one!
Todd...you can do that and still have a functional preamp?? I thought the same thing last night when I was dreaming about uses of the extra switch, but didn't think it was a credible suggestion...not because of any reason just because I didn't know it could be done. Again, I know nothing about design. If that's a possibility, I think that would also be a very cool option.
-
You guys are gonna kill poor fivefish with feature creep :o
Better feature creep than creepy features :)
Good question tho, what is the current target spec?
1. Inputs: 2X XLR, Power Jack.
2. Outputs: 2X XLR
3. 2 channels.
4. Gain: ~60 dB?
5. 5 segment LED peak-meter
Switches:
4. P48V (independent channels) ON/OFF.
5. LED peak meters, ON/OFF
6. Low cut filter (both channels) ON/OFF.
7. -20 dB Pad (both channels), ON/OFF
Power:
8. Input 4.5~14V DC
9. External power supply only?
-
Gain: ~60 dB?
From 5Fish website, spec on SC-1 preamp, on which the TS-2 is based:
- Gain range from +6 to +72dB, in 6dB increments
So, pretty sure the gain is more like ~70dB. Which for me is one of the big draws. Majoro gain and low noise. This and the high freq. response is what makes this really good for the nature/bat chirp recording crowd too.
Peace,
Sanaka
-
5F, I've not read all of the reviews of your existing pre kit, but I have hears some of the samples that you posted and thought the sound decent. It's difficult to tell from samples on my computer speakers what your pre 'sounds' like though.
I guess my question is, if you had to compare your circuit with some other well known pre-amps out there, what do you think matches it most closely in terms of 'flavor' (timbre, tonality, etc)?
The main reason I ask is that the most beautiful thing I think I've ever heard was a 57 on a nice snare through an API 3124, and I've always wanted to hear what something like that would do in a ambient recording situation, but I'm sorely lacking the funds to own APIs, and the motivation to devise a scheme to power them in the field.
-
I guess my question is, if you had to compare your circuit with some other well known pre-amps out there, what do you think matches it most closely in terms of 'flavor' (timbre, tonality, etc)?
My "stock version" (i.e. without the transformers) I would think is similar to the "API Arsenal Audio" R20 and the DAV BG1.
I don't own either so I have not personally heard them... just what people tell me.
Some people that owned both SC1 and DAV have said my pre sounds cleaner and clearer than the DAV.
The R20 just came on the market last week? I read on the API R20 preamp manual that it uses the same mic pre chip and balanced driver chip as I'm using. So I would think it will sound the same too, not unless they did some other things to it also.
The main reason I ask is that the most beautiful thing I think I've ever heard was a 57 on a nice snare through an API 3124
The "transformer version" I have is using the same input transformers commonly used with API clones.
The character of my pre with and without the input transformer is different. It's a bit more "thicker" with the input trannie.
8. Input 4.5~14V DC
My goal was to design this with 12VDC input. But through testing, I found out I still get signal even with 4.5VDC input. My FET mic isn't happy though with the powered by 4.5VDC input. The Phantom power's voltage isn't high enough for my FET mic to work. But bumping the input to 5.0VDC input, and my voltage hungry FET mic worked. For other types of condenser mics, it worked with the 4.5VDC input.
But if you can, I recommend 12VDC input.
Note: Your max dBu output will be reduced when running on reduced voltage input than 12V. i.e. lower headroom. But then again, you probably don't need +23dBu output whipping the inputs of your AD converter.
9. External power supply only?
External battery, wall wart, via DC jack.
No Internal batteries.
-
I hope the number of +Ts I have = the number of sales I'll have ;D ;D ;D (okay, I'm dreaming)
I can see your pre dominating the tapers section in just a few years :djsmilie:
-
Wasn't there also an issue with the voltage supplied vs. voltage indicated by your external battery? That is, supply current barely changed as selected battery output voltage changed by a factor of three? Which raises the issue of the accuracy of the battery's voltage indicator. It could be worthwhile to measure the true output voltage of the battery under load at different settings, otherwise that could result in inaccurate performance measurements at varying supply voltages.
I don't think so. Here's the indicated vs. actual voltage measured. (Yes, this is loaded with my pre, and both the split PSU and 48V converter section running.)
4.5 = 4.58V
5 = 5.09V
6 = 6.12V
7.5 = 7.67V
9 = 9.24V
12 = 12.22V
14 = 14.21V
Though I agree that the constant current consumption at even the different voltages is a mystery. Normally, current consumption should be higher at the lower voltages.
YMMV with other batteries. I just tested this with a Tek battery.
There are only two types of condenser mics, FET and tube
By "FET" mics, I'm referring to my Sterling/GrooveTubes FET LDC mics (labeled as such on the mic body).
Tube mics will have their own PSU and don't need PP from the pre.
-
I've read this entire thread in the last 2 days... i've been a prodigal taper lately (damn you work), but am looking to upgrade to an open rig... everything about your pre that i see, i like... I would be running it into an r-09 at first, as alot of us do, and it only has 1/8 for inputs, alot of recorders out there do... If it wouldn't be too much to ask, plz add either rca's or a 1/8 output to it so the rest of us folk can easily run them into our recorders as well. I realize I could go xlr>1/8, but having the extra output would also benefit patchers (people who hook their recorders into someone else's mics>pre).
-
Checking in for Round Deux.
-
9. External power supply only?
External battery, wall wart, via DC jack.
No Internal batteries.
>>this might be an obstacle for field recordists who carry their gear rather than keep it next to a mic stand/tripod setup
?
-
Sorry, I can't put a battery inside. (Note, I'm not using a custom-made case where I can have every feature/opening/design/dimension made to spec to my liking. Maybe when I become big like "Grace" or "Sound Devices" :)
There are portable batteries you can use though.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2616619841_e873fdcce0.jpg)
-
true and they have become a lot less bulky than they used to be
so maybe not a show-stopper for the PortaBrace crowd
:)
-
9. External power supply only?
External battery, wall wart, via DC jack.
No Internal batteries.
>>this might be an obstacle for field recordists who carry their gear rather than keep it next to a mic stand/tripod setup
?
This really isn't that much of an issue, even for birders, IMHO. It becomes a pretty big PITA to open it up and replace 9V batteries all the time, which isn't cheap either since it would generally take three nine volts to last the 4 hours or more expected. That's at least $6 a pop for power. Using one of these rechargeable tekkeons or the infamous wally world's is so simple. And chances are pretty good a preamp's not going anywhere anyway without a bag of some kind to also carry the mics, cables, accessories. So, the bag will hold the battery...or what alot of people do is put a velcro strip on the battery and the bottom of the preamp to enable the two to be pseudo attached.
-
Ch-Check it out! We're going places. ;D
My SC-1 preamp has been mentioned again in MIX Magazine. Wohoo!
Note: The TS-2 preamp is based upon my SC-1 preamp design.... just a different form factor (stereo) and options for input transformers.
AUGUST 2008 issue
(http://www.fivefish.net/images/MIX-Aug2008.jpg)
Field Test: Avant Electronics Avantone CK-40 Stereo Mic
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_avant_electronics_avantone/
and also back in MAY 2008 issue
(http://www.fivefish.net/images/MIX-May2008.jpg)
Field Test: Peluso 22 47SE Tube Microphone
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_peluso_se_tube/
BTW, check out the review of the CK-40 stereo mic. This could be a good mic for tapers.
(http://mixonline.com/mag/808CK40.jpg)
-
Well, it would behoove you to look into that mystery. Not trying to bust your balls here, but if somebody asks you about battery life with some battery they are using--let's say, for grins, a lantern battery--you ought to know the current draw at that voltage. Right now, your answer is 104mA, which is about 0.6W. But if they use a 12V battery, it's 115mA, for 1.4W? Does not make sense.
BTW, the earlier tests do not have the 48V converter running. i.e. switchboard not connected yet.
Okay, I've been working on this mystery this afternoon. I decided to repeat the test using a Bench Power Supply. So if the Tek battery has some weirdness to it due to it's built in converter, I'd remove that equation from the test. So here I am using a linear HP regulated PSU, plugged into the wall.
Set it to 12.01 VDC output.
Feed the voltage to the DC jack of the preamp. Get my 'expensive' Fluke and inserted it in between, to measure the current before going into the preamp.
With both PP switches off, I get a reading of 125.7 mA
Turning on one of the PP switch, without any mic connected, I get a reading of 130mA
Turning on both the PP switch, without any mics connected, I get a reading of 133.9mA
Loaded one channel with my power hungry mic... both channels PP ON, I get a reading of 143.8mA
Okay, still with me so far?..... The theory is if we lower the voltage, current consumption should go up. Right?
Without changing the preamp/mic/phantom power setup, I slowly turn the dial on my HP regulated PSU down to 6.0 Volts...
12Volts = 144mA
10Volts = 145mA
09Volts = 147mA
08Volts = 150mA
07Volts = 147mA
06Volts = 137mA
Current did go up as voltage went down to 8Volts... then from 8Volts down to 6Volts, the current consumption got reduced.
In all voltage settings, the mic pre and the attached mic was still working.
If not, you have a massive loss in your converter circuit at higher supply voltages. I doubt that is the case, because that would be one hot puppy. But it's worth nailing down.
There's probably some efficiency loss. I'm not claiming close to 100% efficiency, or even above 90+% efficiency. But right now, the converters run cool to the touch and have no problem powering the preamp.
I've been monitoring closely if either the split or the 48V converters get hot since day 1. But they don't even get warm. Defnitely, not hot. And I've been running this on and off for several hours straight.
Thanks for your inputs! Much appreciated! I'll tackle the PP one of these days.
-
Metering lights or, in my case, running lights... help me know that my system is running. If I switch the lights off and then get side tracked, I may very well come back and think that A) I've run out of juice, or 2) someone switched off the pre.
You could always try touching your tongue to the battery.
Note: Your max dBu output will be reduced when running on reduced voltage input than 12V. i.e. lower headroom. But then again, you probably don't need +23dBu output whipping the inputs of your AD converter.
Curious what that might mean in terms of headroom when run on 9volts.
Fwiw, I really like the sony camcorder batteries that power the 7xx recorders. Especially the way they attach to the recorder to make a solid unit with no cable worries. I rarely removed the battery from the 7xx and preferred to just plug the whole unit into the charger. At 8 initial volts and droping to 6.5-7.0, I know that is a bit low for your design..
(http://www.cinemarcade.com/images/creature200.jpg)
-
Well now that's getting a little interesting. Is the DC converter output not at a fixed voltage? If it's dependent on voltage input fluctuations, I guess that explains the loss in headroom. I believe the chip you're using for 48V doesn't work that way though; it uses a fixed reference for output voltage.
Open question whether it's better to operate at a fixed internal voltage and draw more current from the power source as a result.
The split psu is a fixed voltage output. The 48V converter has a fixed reference voltage. On the 48V section, I just use a trimmer to fine-trim the output voltage.
Anyways... I am keeping a close eye on the split psu converters because when I add that high-pass filter section, plus the pad switching (so that will be 2 opamp chips and 4 relays total for the 2 channels), I'll be cutting it close to the max. wattage rating of the converter.
I compute I'll still come under it, but we'll see. Otherwise, I may need to devise a different solution.
Man... what's the power consumption of the other preamps you guys use?
-
MS feature I'm not even considering.
a reason unbalanced outs wouldn't be enough on their own?
There's several points on the board that can be used for unbalanced outs... and have enough oomph drive capability too. It's a question of real estate space though on the rear panel and PC board. We'll fine tune it when I am closer to a final product.
Right now, I feel I'm doing 2 steps forward, 1 step back. :)
-
Sorry, I can't put a battery inside. (Note, I'm not using a custom-made case where I can have every feature/opening/design/dimension made to spec to my liking. Maybe when I become big like "Grace" or "Sound Devices" :)
There are portable batteries you can use though.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2616619841_e873fdcce0.jpg)
While no internal battery is not a show-stopper, not having a ready solution may be for some. It would be nice to be able to purchase an AA battery sled to go with your pre, 8 x AA would give you a series/parallel arrangement of 6V with a decent mAh rating.
digifish.
-
An internal battery? I see no need whatsoever for that. There are countless ways to easily power this unit.
Same goes for unbalanced outs or RCA jacks. Very few people would ever use them and I see no need to mess around with any sort of unbalanced output, ever.
Mid-side? Do it in post people.
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
Clean simple design is what you have already, stick with that and ignore some of the more ridiculous suggestions for features.
Cheers!
-
As a frequent stealther, I would love to see an internal battery and a 1/8" stereo out jack included so that you could easily hook this up to a R-09 or other recorder without XLR inputs. This preamp looks really good though, can't wait for it to go into production. 8)
-
An internal battery? I see no need whatsoever for that. There are countless ways to easily power this unit.
Same goes for unbalanced outs or RCA jacks. Very few people would ever use them and I see no need to mess around with any sort of unbalanced output, ever.
I disagree. There are many people here who run the edirol, marantz, and tascam hand held digital recorders, all of which have 1/8" inputs. Having unbalanced outs (1/8" or RCA) would make this very easy to use with such recorders. Again, not a deal breaker for most. If this already had an unbalanced output, i would probably end up buying one to run with my R-1 to run in addition to my FR2-LE
-
Can you move the relay and meters off the split supply and just use the (unconverted) input voltage? How how much are the relays, a few mA?
The VU meters are already off the split supply.
Yeah, I plan on doing the same thing with the relays... just power them directly via the 12VDC raw input. power consumption? I can't remember now... but definitely I'm using a 12V relay... lower consumption than a 5V relay.
Internal Batteries
I'm not really going there. No plans to do that. Not with this case. Don't want people screwing/unscrewing/opening the case just to change a couple of 9V batteries inside. Maybe if a 9V lasts for months... but not for this purpose. There is a twin-9V battery holder that is available but A) No more space inside the unit. B) expensive. C) Need to route square holes to the rear panels (which there is also no more space) and which means more machining, which is also expensive. Bottomline... It's a real expensive change to do and the upside is not very convincing for me. I think a small external battery, hooked up to the locking DC jack is a more easier solution.
As for the battery sled, good idea.... I'd leave the implementation to some other entrepreneurial guy.
-
Internal Batteries
As for the battery sled, good idea.... I'd leave the implementation to some other entrepreneurial guy.
I just found images of this AA to 7.5V battery sled (three units in the pic below), takes 10 AA's
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/batt2.jpg)
That should last a while...just got to track down the manufacturer.
digifish
-
nashphil wrote:
An internal battery? I see no need whatsoever for that. There are countless ways to easily power this unit.
Same goes for unbalanced outs or RCA jacks. Very few people would ever use them and I see no need to mess around with any sort of unbalanced output, ever.
Mid-side? Do it in post people.
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
Clean simple design is what you have already, stick with that and ignore some of the more ridiculous suggestions for features.
Cheers!
I totally agree with Nashphil's last sentence here. Keep it clean and solid as a brick, don't load it with so many little thingys that the essence - the actual mic to line amplification - is compromised in any way.
However, I feel the low-cut/HPF is important. If bass or rumble is flailing your inputs, you can't regain that lost S/N in post. You have to not record it for it not to eat your dynamic range. So if the filtering can be done with no compromise to the actual preamp, it's crucial.
It seems that enough folks are running R09's or whatever with unbal inputs that if there's easy room for an 1/8" jack and that can be easily implemented with no ill effects, then yeah, sure. Otherwise, one can always build/aquire a special cable to run balanced XLR>unbal. But I'd leave it at 1/8" and not worry about RCA's. If one is running unbalanced anyway, it's very likely for stealth reasons, and 1/8" is stealthier than RCA. IOW, I'm snobby enough to feel that unbalanced doesn't deserve much investment in effort or case real estate :P
I for one would vote against internal batteries even if this were offered.
Peace,
Sanaka
-
^^ :coolguy:
-
Hosa makes versions of the "special cable" with two XLRF to 1/8-inch TRS.
Check out the Hosa YXF-247 (1 ft.) or YXF-302 (2 ft.) or XYF-305 (5 ft.).
Price is less than $20 from your favorite online audio merchant.
This cable works with all the small recorders I've tried, including the
Edirol R-09HR, Olympus LS-10, Marantz PMD620, and Sony PCM-D50.
The Hosa cables use a straight XLR and angled 1/8-inch. I'll see if
I can find a ready-made cable with right angle XLR.
Flintstone
-
Hosa makes versions of the "special cable" with two XLRF to 1/8-inch TRS.
Check out the Hosa YXF-247 (1 ft.) or YXF-302 (2 ft.) or XYF-305 (5 ft.).
Price is less than $20 from your favorite online audio merchant.
This cable works with all the small recorders I've tried, including the
Edirol R-09HR, Olympus LS-10, Marantz PMD620, and Sony PCM-D50.
The Hosa cables use a straight XLR and angled 1/8-inch. I'll see if
I can find a ready-made cable with right angle XLR.
Flintstone
Here's the Hosa model...
YXF-247
(http://site.stsi.biz/images/yxf-247.jpg)
(http://www.marketworks.com/hi/71/71133/yxf-247pinout.jpg)
CAREFUL! Using this with a MixPre (for example) could damage it. You need to lift the pin 1/3 bridge. The appropriate pin assignments vary from pre-to-pre, this would be OK however with the TS-2 Preamp.
I have never seen a cable like the above with 90 deg XLRs, you'd have to make your own I'd expect.
digifish
-
Man... what's the power consumption of the other preamps you guys use?
just as a reference for you, the Grace Designs V2 pre-amp draws 600-700mA at 6VDC.
(The updated Grace Designs V3 draws in the 900-1000mA range, but the V3 also includes a A/D converter).
-
the Grace Designs V2 pre-amp draws 600-700mA at 6VDC.
Thanks Jason! Good info to know.
** Now I feel better :)
Here's the Hosa model...YXF-247
(http://www.marketworks.com/hi/71/71133/yxf-247pinout.jpg)
I like the concept, but I don't like the internal connection of that Hosa. It's shorting pins 1 and 3. That's shorting one leg of the output to GND!
I'd rather see Pin1 connected to the Sleeve, pins 2 connected as shown and just leave pin 3 alone and unconnected.
-
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
hpf is very very useful outdoors probably not so in a controlled situation like a recording studio
when a low freq clips your signal it is very difficult and sometimes impossible to fix this in post
been there done that
-
Hosa makes versions of the "special cable" with two XLRF to 1/8-inch TRS.
Check out the Hosa YXF-247 (1 ft.) or YXF-302 (2 ft.) or XYF-305 (5 ft.).
Price is less than $20 from your favorite online audio merchant.
Flintstone
I just bought this:
http://www.audiogear.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?key=Adpt2FXMSM&preadd=action
nicely made and only $13USD
-
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
hpf is very very useful outdoors probably not so in a controlled situation like a recording studio
when a low freq clips your signal it is very difficult and sometimes impossible to fix this in post
been there done that
I've done tons of work in both areas, studio and indoor/outdoors. HPF is very useful in both. I believe I said several times that I would like to have the HPF filter included.
However, it can be done in post with no ill effects.
There is another earlier thread where much of this is discussed. Many of these suggestions have already been suggested a few weeks back.
This is the essentially the finished version, save a few minor revisions before it's finalized for production.
I just can't see any reason to want an unbalanced output on any device, especially when you can make or a buy a cable that will accomplish that desire for less than $20.
A balanced output is MUCH preferred for many reasons.
Keep up the good work Five Fish +T
-
Here, here. Keep up the good work.
-
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
hpf is very very useful outdoors probably not so in a controlled situation like a recording studio
when a low freq clips your signal it is very difficult and sometimes impossible to fix this in post
been there done that
I've done tons of work in both areas, studio and indoor/outdoors. HPF is very useful in both. I believe I said several times that I would like to have the HPF filter included.
However, it can be done in post with no ill effects.
right but that is not always the case with outdoor sound
(I'm not talking about live music taping)
there are times when, sans hpf, the low freqs in a gust of wind or the rumble inside a car will clip the entire signal
and is not something that can be fixed (easily or otherwise) in post
and makes a good case for a hpf
-
w/ nashplil on keeping it clean and easy. if all works out, like it looks like it is going that way, this little box will have plenty of mods/features 5-fish will add later. ed
-
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
hpf is very very useful outdoors probably not so in a controlled situation like a recording studio
when a low freq clips your signal it is very difficult and sometimes impossible to fix this in post
been there done that
I've done tons of work in both areas, studio and indoor/outdoors. HPF is very useful in both. I believe I said several times that I would like to have the HPF filter included.
However, it can be done in post with no ill effects.
right but that is not always the case with outdoor sound
(I'm not talking about live music taping)
there are times when, sans hpf, the low freqs in a gust of wind or the rumble inside a car will clip the entire signal
and is not something that can be fixed (easily or otherwise) in post
and makes a good case for a hpf
I think you must be arguing with yourself, since no one is disagreeing with you.
HPF is a great option, I believe I said that about 5 times already.
-T
-
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
hpf is very very useful outdoors probably not so in a controlled situation like a recording studio
when a low freq clips your signal it is very difficult and sometimes impossible to fix this in post
been there done that
I've done tons of work in both areas, studio and indoor/outdoors. HPF is very useful in both. I believe I said several times that I would like to have the HPF filter included.
However, it can be done in post with no ill effects.
right but that is not always the case with outdoor sound
(I'm not talking about live music taping)
there are times when, sans hpf, the low freqs in a gust of wind or the rumble inside a car will clip the entire signal
and is not something that can be fixed (easily or otherwise) in post
and makes a good case for a hpf
I think you must be arguing with yourself, since no one is disagreeing with you.
HPF is a great option, I believe I said that about 5 times already.
-T
no I'm disagreeing with your 'However,...' part where you claim the artifacts created by not having a hpf can be fixed in post
capishe?
-
HPF, same....but I would like this feature since ultra low lows have no real value in recording anyway.
hpf is very very useful outdoors probably not so in a controlled situation like a recording studio
when a low freq clips your signal it is very difficult and sometimes impossible to fix this in post
been there done that
I've done tons of work in both areas, studio and indoor/outdoors. HPF is very useful in both. I believe I said several times that I would like to have the HPF filter included.
However, it can be done in post with no ill effects.
right but that is not always the case with outdoor sound
(I'm not talking about live music taping)
there are times when, sans hpf, the low freqs in a gust of wind or the rumble inside a car will clip the entire signal
and is not something that can be fixed (easily or otherwise) in post
and makes a good case for a hpf
I think you must be arguing with yourself, since no one is disagreeing with you.
HPF is a great option, I believe I said that about 5 times already.
-T
no I'm disagreeing with your 'However,...' part where you claim the artifacts created by not having a hpf can be fixed in post
capishe?
Some folks would rather argue with themselves than actually take the time to read the thread, and maybe even learn something.
It's easier to argue a silly point of symantics, especially when you can't spell either.
capiche?
haha! touché
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=capishe
btw, 'symantics' is actually spelled 'SEMANTICS'
but hey you're from Nashville so I understand! ;)
-
Hosa makes versions of the "special cable" with two XLRF to 1/8-inch TRS.
Check out the Hosa YXF-247 (1 ft.) or YXF-302 (2 ft.) or XYF-305 (5 ft.).
Price is less than $20 from your favorite online audio merchant.
Flintstone
I just bought this:
http://www.audiogear.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?key=Adpt2FXMSM&preadd=action
nicely made and only $13USD
Do you know the wiring?
digifish
-
Here's the Hosa model...YXF-247
(http://www.marketworks.com/hi/71/71133/yxf-247pinout.jpg)
I like the concept, but I don't like the internal connection of that Hosa. It's shorting pins 1 and 3. That's shorting one leg of the output to GND!
I'd rather see Pin1 connected to the Sleeve, pins 2 connected as shown and just leave pin 3 alone and unconnected.
I agree, it's easy to open up the XLRs and snip the wire bridge they have soldered in.
The problem for manufacturers (such as yourself) is that you can't control how users will treat your pre, and while you don't like it, your preamp will survive this cable. BTW: It's hardly the users fault if he buys a cable from the shop apparently designed for the task and plugs it in. Sound Devices (OTOH) manual clearly warns against this wiring configuration, I checked with tech support when I bought it and they said it could damage the outputs. I am not sure how conservative they were being, but good design should cope with these two basics (IMO):
1) all the outputs being shorted together (or in any combination)
2) P48V sent into the outputs.
You score +T on those two :)
digifish
-
Hosa makes versions of the "special cable" with two XLRF to 1/8-inch TRS.
Check out the Hosa YXF-247 (1 ft.) or YXF-302 (2 ft.) or XYF-305 (5 ft.).
Price is less than $20 from your favorite online audio merchant.
Flintstone
I just bought this:
http://www.audiogear.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?key=Adpt2FXMSM&preadd=action
nicely made and only $13USD
Do you know the wiring?
digifish
yeah, I tested the cable with a DMM and pins 1&3 are shorted
so I opened both XLR's and just snipped the connections
-
1) all the outputs being shorted together (or in any combination)
I want to have an official answer for this, so I emailed the engineers who designed the chips I use to get the information straight from them... (and not just rely on my own interpretation of the datasheet).
My preamp "will respond to a shorted output from single-ended loads or cables just fine due to the current-sensing nature of OutSmarts (the technology used in my balanced line driver). Excessive load current does not flow from the shorted output into ground. The opposing output, when connected single-ended, produces an automatic 6 dB gain increase to maintain overall system level."
So there you go! All is good! :)
-
VU Meter PCBs arrived last 2 days ago. Perfect fit between the motherboard and switchboard.... 1" high.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/2766223091_37a37b8d2a.jpg)
Built one prototype tonight. Here's to give you an idea of it's size.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/2767070334_8eb79c822d.jpg)
Ohh yeah, it works... no problem.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3234/2766223145_a9373904fa.jpg)
NEXT STEP:
Build a prototype of the High Pass filter on a breadboard.
-
VU meters installed and in action. VU meter on/off switch works.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3100/2772694764_7ec807eaa6.jpg)
-
Been watching this thread for a little while, plus it took a little time to read through everything. I must say it's looking great, keep up the good work and thanks for keeping us posted.
-
I want mine with a special "I watched it from the beginning at Taperssection" sticker.... :laugh:
-
Sweet job on the VU board 5 :fish:
Don't forget the full height standoffs on your next parts order tho' ;D
Peace,
Sanaka
-
Sweet job on the VU board 5 :fish:
Don't forget the full height standoffs on your next parts order tho' ;D
Peace,
Sanaka
Yeah, you got me! :) Need to get a 1" standoff.
-
Man this looks sweet
great going here!
so maybe to satisfy the rca or 1/4 crowd
what about the XLR / 1/4" combo Neutrik connects?
it could be balanced TRS or XLR that way
folks can always get 1/4 to RCA or
1/4 to mini if that's they wanted?
personally I like balanced XLR or TRS outs
this is great work!
thanx!
-- Ian
-
Earlier I urged strongly against "feature bloat" and for keeping things simple. I hope it won't violate that spirit to offer the following as food for thought :-[
I'm thinking each of the toggle switches on the TS-2 would do well to have it's own LED indicator. This is not critical, however, so I think should be implemented IF AND ONLY IF it is a relatively simple matter, won't require a big remodel or new boards to be printed, and of course doesn't compromise the essential amplification circuit in any way. And obviously not if I'm the only one who thinks this :) I thought maybe there are already LED terminals at each switch position, but only the 3 were being used since the arrangement of LEDs on just power and phantom makes it's own sense.
Reasons for LEDs at the other 3 positions:
> VU - With VU switchable, there are 2 reasons your VU might not light when there is acoustic signal: 1) It's switched off. 2) It's on, but something is amiss (mics not plugged in!, cable gone wanky). In a dark venue, an LED would alert you that something's wrong if the VU is not registering signal, as opposed to letting you think you just have it switched off.
> Low Cut/HPF - Again, with a glance down at your rig, you'll know whether this is currently engaged or not, even in a dark venue.
> Pad - Same as above.
The combination of lit/unlit LEDs in a straight line would I think make the entire status of the pre's settings (other than gain and trim) instantly readable, even in the dark, even if, like, you know, you're like tired so, like you accidentally drank 3 or 4 extra beers ;D
I think these LEDs should all be one color, but something distinct from the VU's colors. To me the purple/UV LEDs are sweet lookin' and less 'projective'/more low key in darkness.
Plus, besides the fact that more pretty lights are always better than less, this makes the whole face more symmetrical, which is always soothing to your OCD/anal types like me.
Here's what I mean:
(http://sanaka.smugmug.com/photos/354084656_BBkTq-XL.jpg)
Peace,
Sanaka
-
No promises, but it's a possibility.
Since we already have the LED space for it, the power source for the LEDs, and also since the HP filter and pad will be under relay control. Basically, the switchboard isn't carrying any signal... just swtiches that trigger relays on the main motherboard.
-
Some feedback on LEDs.. Fwiw, I myself don't need any LEDs. Though I understand they can be useful and also important for marketing.
I use the recorder's level meters. They are ultimately what matter most to me. Also, most LEDs are too bright for the environments where I record and I have to keep them covered with gaffer tape ("usher, my wife has epilepsy and that nasty man's v3 is giving her a seizure and, worse, is distracting me!"). A power LED might be nice.. But again, my ultimate "are we good?" test is looking at the meters on the recorder. With toggles it is easy to see and feel the position of a switch.
Given your diligent approach, I am sure you'll be testing whether those VU LEDs introduce any switching noise into the audio ;)
-
Some feedback on LEDs.. Fwiw, I myself don't need any LEDs. Though I understand they can be useful and also important for marketing.
I use the recorder's level meters. They are ultimately what matter most to me. Also, most LEDs are too bright for the environments where I record and I have to keep them covered with gaffer tape ("usher, my wife has epilepsy and that nasty man's v3 is giving her a seizure and, worse, is distracting me!"). A power LED might be nice.. But again, my ultimate "are we good?" test is looking at the meters on the recorder. With toggles it is easy to see and feel the position of a switch.
Given your diligent approach, I am sure you'll be testing whether those VU LEDs introduce any switching noise into the audio ;)
I see your point w/r/t LED's -- ultimately it is the level of the signal going to the recorder that matters most
but having preamp LED's is very helpful/useful (has saved my butt) when setting levels in natural environments (not live music taping)
where input levels and conditions change and levels need to be readjusted accordingly
i.e. seeing if the pre is clipping but the recorder appears to be ok and vice versa
-
Also, most LEDs are too bright for the environments where I record and I have to keep them covered with gaffer tape
...which is I think a reason why he's including a switch to turn the level LEDs off, the other being power preservation.
-
Fivefishdiy
I just was relooking at Part 1 of this thread
and saw a screen shot
you're using a Mac!
;)
very nice!
<= Mac User here since 1988
(older apples in the early 80's)
cool!
this project is so exciting!
:)
-- Ian
-
;)
very nice!
<= Mac User here since 1988
(older apples in the early 80's)
;D ;D
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant
;D ;D
For additional laughs, go to his home location and check out other articles this guy has written... funny as hell. (Thanks go out to lil kim jong who recently turned me on to this website.)
-
AMAZING THREAD from the beginning :)
-
Checking into the second thread.. nice progress. Another vote for a 1/8" stereo output. Certainly not a deal breaker if not there, but as others mentioned, good for small recorders and especially nice for patchers. If not then just let us know where to tap the circuit and leave a bit of space on the rear panel that can be drilled for a panel jack. I've built my own cable for V3 > R-09 and would have just bought a Hosa but for the pin 2-3 issue, plus I wanted right angles both sides and built a better one, and the cable is nearly as big as the recorder. Again if not no biggie.
-
Note: Your max dBu output will be reduced when running on reduced voltage input than 12V. i.e. lower headroom. But then again, you probably don't need +23dBu output whipping the inputs of your AD converter.
Curious what that might mean in terms of headroom when run on 9volts.
Any update on the headroom impact of running at 9v? (maybe I missed the response) Performance at 7-9volts is way more important to some of us than blinky LEDs.
-
Another vote for a 1/8" stereo output.
As an R-09 user, I would vote for one too. If I ever have to replace my SD MP-2, this would be tops on my list after watching its development.
Thanks again for including us!
Pat
-
Another vote for a 1/8" stereo output.
As an R-09 user, I would vote for one too. If I ever have to replace my SD MP-2, this would be tops on my list after watching its development.
Thanks again for including us!
Pat
Keep me in mind when you are thinking about replacing the mixpre-2 ::)
I don't think the lack of 1/8" input on this pre-amp is a bust just because there are dual XLR cables to 1/8" and there are AT least two people on this board that makes them. Just my opinion.
Since I have been interested in taping, electronics, photography, etc, I have noticed there is not just one device that is totally perfect but what fivefish is doing is damn near as much customization as possible. It is amazing seeing this idea and having it grow into a board and all the way into a nice looking metal case.
Great job to you, fivefish and +t for your great efforts
-
Just a quick update:
Haven't had time to breadboard the HP filter yet.
The addition of the HP filtering, pads, and relays will force me to redesign the motherboard and switchboard. :'(
Soooo I'm looking at other things to improve while I'm at it....
but first, had to test a few new things before committing them to the new PCB.
One thing for sure... current consumption will go up. New value will probably be between 150mA to 200mA (estimate).
-
dump the hpf. KISS.
-
Do the relays end up being in the signal path?
-
Do the relays end up being in the signal path?
Will the signal go through the relay? Of course. Relays are just fancy switches. Think of it as a movable piece of wire.
But instead of running low signal wires back and forth from the PCB to the front panel, the signal stays on the PCB & is switched remotely via relays... and only logic control signals run to the front panel switch. i.e. the audio signal never left the PCB, i.e. shorter path = no noise pickup.
-
Do the relays end up being in the signal path?
FWIW - I seem to remember that when the Mini-Pre came out one of Apogee's key design points was the removal of all Caps from the signal path and replacement with a network(s) of relays. I don't know how they did this, but may be worth noting. I wouldn't think relays in the signal path should be a concern
-
I'm amazed how I've become such an expert preamp designer in the span of ONLY four weeks! So many others too!!!
;D ;D
-
any chance of this being made w/o the hpf to use up the parts u already have? ed
-
I wouldn't think relays in the signal path should be a concern
I agree. Whatever effect on the signal the relays have, and there will always be someone to argue that they do, it is the least effect that can be managed. i.e. 5fish is using the best methodology available, AFAIK.
It does feel a little tragic to make FF back up and have to remodel this. Are there in-line HPF doohickeys the same way there are in-line attenuators? Just wondering if there's other options for HPF that would keep things simpler and prevent FF having to go back several squares on this design.
One thing for sure... current consumption will go up. New value will probably be between 150mA to 200mA (estimate).
I don't think that's a problem. I really want an Edirol R44, and that burns like 1 whole amp! This is also why I like not having internal batteries for the TS-2, it's actually helpful in that any outboard power solution is likely to be so much better/higher capacity than anything that would fit inside. Bring on the pretty lights, man!
Peace,
Sanaka
-
any chance of this being made w/o the hpf to use up the parts u already have? ed
Yes....will be cheaper too.
-
How about some video instead of pictures? :)
So hooked up my battery and 2 condenser mics to the pre... turn on power, turn on phantom for both channels, and recorded the VU meter "in action"...
Note: The audio in the video was recorded by the camera.
Youtube video here. (Make sure to watch in high quality mode.)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3281/2779266155_888114fd33.jpg) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-f47Z2khns)
Enjoy!
-
How about some video instead of pictures? :)
So hooked up my battery and 2 condenser mics to the pre... turn on power, turn on phantom for both channels, and recorded the VU meter "in action"...
Note: The audio in the video was recorded by the camera.
Youtube video here. (Make sure to watch in high quality mode.)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3281/2779266155_888114fd33.jpg) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-f47Z2khns)
Enjoy!
Its been a while since I 've checked in...but I have been following the progress...........Man is this going to be sweet!
OOK
-
i dont need phantom or hpf. is there a bargain older rev board kit that would suit me? i know you had issues with phantom circuit and did the resistor workaround, but havent followed all the way thru to see if you actually rev'd the board since then
-
The resistor/phantom power workaround was only necessary if input transformers are installed on this PCB revision.
If input transformers are not used, this current board works just fine without any workaround fixes.
I'll try to build a few units (i.e. without input transformers).
-
I want the full boat!!!!
Product number 001...or 420... he he.
-
UPDATE:
Start doing prototype of the case... get dimensions of holes and stuff... drill manually, make corrections, keep notes... do some filing to fix the screwups.
Some notes:
The Motherboard, Switchboard and VU meter PCBs... crammed in a 2-inch high, 6" width case. As you can see, it is tight... the switches and capacitors have literally millimeter clearances from hitting the ceiling and bottom of the internal case. The distance between the motherboard and switchboard perfectly aligns with the PCB slot of the case.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3124/2794470601_ca683b077c.jpg)
Attach the front panel to the PCBs. Check out the input transformer peeking from the side.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2260/2794470387_c1bce46bc1.jpg)
Photo of the blue anodized case with the black anodized rack handles temporarily attached.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2795410146_8d55f185f5_o.jpg)
The switch toggle handles peek out just enough... No accidental flipping of switches. It takes some effort to consciously flip it. Using your thumb and fingernails seems to be the easiest way to toggle it. I need to make the switch toggle openings narrower but longer, instead of round.
The blue anodized finish of the case gives it a weird effect when photographed... kinda like a soft glow coming from the surface of the case.
Forgive the crooked holes for the VU meters, and too large holes for the switches. :) These were manually drilled.
I'm going to finalize the dimensions, and have a prototype shop do a sample panel for me using CNC.
-
UPDATE:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2795410146_8d55f185f5_o.jpg)
Very nice. Can you remind me what the two knobs / channel are for, preamp gain and? I am having a blank on that one :)
digifish
-
what the two knobs / channel are for
IIUC: Gain (6dB stepped) & Trim (the 6 dB in between each step).
-
Looking sweet FF!
I thought you had your own CNC machine? Thought it was in some pics you posted before.
Peace,
Sanaka
-
what the two knobs / channel are for
IIUC: Gain (6dB stepped) & Trim (the 6 dB in between each step).
...that's nice. Interestingly I have been using an R44 for a couple of months now and the 6 dB steps are OK on their own. Still, the option for sub-trim is welcome.
digifish
-
I thought you had your own CNC machine? Thought it was in some pics you posted before.
I do... but I need more tighter tolerances for these front panels. Plus looking forward to someone else mass producing and laser etching these for me.
-
I've been following this thread with interest for a while now and I've got to say it's looking good!
Hopefully you'll crank out an 8-banger next. That I could really put to good use... ;D
-
This might sound strange, but let me suggest that you test this pre-amp close to bass bins in a high SPL environment. See if it can tolerate the bass thump. Some pieces of gear don't tolerate that type of environment very well. Also, the fact that the pre-amp has relays in the signal path. If the relays are mechanical the rattling in a high SPL environment may cause them to fail.
I love projects like this.
Is it too late to request a high quality A/D converter be incorporated ??? ;D
...just joking, of course.
-
See if it can tolerate the bass thump.
How about a close-mic'd drum?... with the mic inside the kick drum? and another mic right in the vent hole?
http://www.fivefishstudios.com/audio/SC1demo-drum_mix.mp3
The kick was recorded with a AKG D-112 inside and a Shure Beta 52 in the vent hole.
The snare was recorded with a Shure SM57 on top and an Octava MK-012 on the bottom.
The toms were recorded through Sennheiser E504's.
The overheads are Shure SM81's in an XY pattern.
... my preamps used on everything.
Also, the fact that the pre-amp has relays in the signal path. If the relays are mechanical the rattling in a high SPL environment may cause them to fail.
I'm not using old style relays (i.e. the big bulky relays where you can see through the mechanical workings). No siree.
I don't think this mechanical rattling is an issue you have to be worried about. I checked the specs on the relay and they are rated at 500 m/s^2 for misoperation, and endurance of 1,000 m/s^2. ... and the force of gravity is what?.... 9.8 m/s^2?
-
I think Chuck's suggestion is more about to testing the effects of vibration on the unit - perhaps by putting the preamp inside the kick drum. :o
Unlike taping from the 'section' back by the soundboard, another approach used for concert recording is referred to as 'stack taping'. Stack taping means getting as close as possible to one of the FOH stacks in an effort to increase the ratio of direct to reverberant (& crowd noise) sound. That often means being directly in front of big sub woofer bins that vibrate everything, strongly. Most users probably won't use this unit that way very often but still..
-
Ahhhh I see... I'll think of something :)
-
Ahhhh I see... I'll think of something :)
Maybe run it on top of a clothes dryer!
-
looking good
the video is nice with the pop up too, never saw that before
-
I've read it all and I'm just so ready to buy one of these. Cant wait!
-
A picture is worth a thousand words.... :)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2815773541_810d1f40ce_o.jpg)
Update:
Been thinking in advance what to do to label the knobs and switches... laser engraving or mill engraving. It affects the pricing. Or maybe I should just leave it unlabeled.... hmmm... still thinking.
-
looks nice. +T
-
Beautiful! Great work!
scot
-
Update:
Been thinking in advance what to do to label the knobs and switches... laser engraving or mill engraving. It affects the pricing. Or maybe I should just leave it unlabeled.... hmmm... still thinking.
Preamp looks great!
Guess it wouldn't make or break for me if unlabeled, although I'd pay more and would prefer to have mine labeled. In the grand scheme of things, just thinking out loud that it might not be as well accepted outside the TS.com community if it's unlabeled...as if it weren't a professional product or something. Besides, why go as far as you have, with the ULTRA superior professional approach that you've taken getting the preamp to 98%, only to leave the product looking 'home-made'.
Even though in this community, we know what's inside the box is what counts, it's what's outside the box and how it looks that may convince many (if not most) potential non-TS.com buyers as to the professionalism that went into design and construction. A home-made looking end product implies a home-made approach to design and construction and devalues your product, IMO.
My $0.02 anyway.
EDIT TO ADD: If it was me, I'd personally even go so far as to make sure all exposed aluminum in the cut holes are also somehow colored or blackened so that there is no exposed silver aluminum showing from the exterior, but that's me because I do think presentation is important to the end product.
(An analogy is that I'm an engineer and my end work product is oftentimes a technical report. I can do a fantastic job and spend years on a project doing nothing but Grade A technical work and present a final report that is 100% technically correct and technically outstanding, but if the report has typos, incorrect page numbers, wrong references to figures, etc., then it shows a lack of attention to detail and generally leaves a negative impression, especially on people that read the report but don't know me or the work I've done.)
-
what's the maximum level it can handle on the input?
-
I'd personally even go so far as to make sure all exposed aluminum in the cut holes are also somehow colored or blackened s
I agree... this is just a prototype box.
-
Update:
Been thinking in advance what to do to label the knobs and switches... laser engraving or mill engraving. It affects the pricing. Or maybe I should just leave it unlabeled.... hmmm... still thinking.
Preamp looks great!
Guess it wouldn't make or break for me if unlabeled, although I'd pay more and would prefer to have mine labeled. In the grand scheme of things, just thinking out loud that it might not be as well accepted outside the TS.com community if it's unlabeled...as if it weren't a professional product or something. Besides, why go as far as you have, with the ULTRA superior professional approach that you've taken getting the preamp to 98%, only to leave the product looking 'home-made'.
Even though in this community, we know what's inside the box is what counts, it's what's outside the box and how it looks that may convince many (if not most) potential non-TS.com buyers as to the professionalism that went into design and construction. A home-made looking end product implies a home-made approach to design and construction and devalues your product, IMO.
My $0.02 anyway.
EDIT TO ADD: If it was me, I'd personally even go so far as to make sure all exposed aluminum in the cut holes are also somehow colored or blackened so that there is no exposed silver aluminum showing from the exterior, but that's me because I do think presentation is important to the end product.
(An analogy is that I'm an engineer and my end work product is oftentimes a technical report. I can do a fantastic job and spend years on a project doing nothing but Grade A technical work and present a final report that is 100% technically correct and technically outstanding, but if the report has typos, incorrect page numbers, wrong references to figures, etc., then it shows a lack of attention to detail and generally leaves a negative impression, especially on people that read the report but don't know me or the work I've done.)
You really haven't cut any corner since the inseption....why start now......Make the outside as good as the inside...People will buy this preamp.......regardless.........This pre looks fantastic!!!!! I can't wait to hear how it sounds in the field!
Peace OOK T+
-
Okay, I made CAD drawings of the front panel, then did a Photoshop render to make it look a little bit realistic...
I'll have one prototype panel made to see if my dimensions are correct.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/2820796158_ee05acf9f9_o.jpg)
All text will be engraved on the anodized aluminum panel, 3mm thick. It's not silkscreen/paint that will chip or fade away.
Also using recessed head stainless steel screws to attach the front panel to the case. It will have that gun-gray color. Then of course, black anodized rack handles.
-
Okay, I made CAD drawings of the front panel, then did a Photoshop render to make it look a little bit realistic...
I'll have one prototype panel made to see if my dimensions are correct.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/2820796158_ee05acf9f9_o.jpg)
All text will be engraved on the anodized aluminum panel, 3mm thick. It's not silkscreen/paint that will chip or fade away.
Also using recessed head stainless steel screws to attach the front panel to the case. It will have that gun-gray color. Then of course, black anodized rack handles.
Looks great, I'm really looking forward to hearing this pre.
A couple of suggestions for the panel markings, might be nice to add a couple of equally spaced lines around the circumference of the gain and trim knobs for reference and maybe add something to define the polarity switch's position.
-
Okay, I made CAD drawings of the front panel, then did a Photoshop render to make it look a little bit realistic...
I'll have one prototype panel made to see if my dimensions are correct.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/2820796158_ee05acf9f9_o.jpg)
All text will be engraved on the anodized aluminum panel, 3mm thick. It's not silkscreen/paint that will chip or fade away.
Also using recessed head stainless steel screws to attach the front panel to the case. It will have that gun-gray color. Then of course, black anodized rack handles.
Looks great, I'm really looking forward to hearing this pre.
A couple of suggestions for the panel markings, might be nice to add a couple of equally spaced lines around the circumference of the gain and trim knobs for reference and maybe add something to define the polarity switch's position.
I would like to second the suggestion of the "equally spaced lines around the circumference of the gain and trim knobs for reference." this, coupled with whichever markings may be on the knob itself will make it easier to match gain/trim settings on each channel (a need common in live music taping though not in the studio.)
-
Will do.
-
Awesome.
-
Latest Front panel... click marks added.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3273/2822140089_4d0330396c_o.png)
The "dots" are engraved/milled into the aluminum panel.
-
This thing is going to look great and I'm sure it will sound great. I'm glad I kept my R-1. I think they will go quite well together.
-
Simplified the panel, made it look less cluttered.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2823983742_1527082aa8_o.png)
I hope it still looks intuitive.
-
Simplified the panel, made it look less cluttered.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2823983742_1527082aa8_o.png)
I hope it still looks intuitive.
Very Nice
looks very intuitive!
great work
-- Ian
-
Personally, I like the spelled-out version better than all the symbols. Why go hieroglyphic if you have the space to just spell it out?
But rock on, either way! :)
s
-
Looks awesome!
I have a question.....or maybe a wish for the future.
Does the trim work as an output leveler (post tranny) or is it a fine tune for the (pre-tranny) gain stage?
Since it has transformers, that's always a nice feature to be able to push the pre hot to the transformer, then reduce the output volume a bit to compesate.
The Great River has this feature and I find that to be about the best preamp I have used.
Either way, I'm stoked to get my hands on one of these. Soon.
-
If I see a sine wave icon -- I expect a tone generator -- not phase reverse switch.
-
yup, but maybe he is referring to changing input impedances from very low to high?
-
On many mixing boards the phase reverse is signified by this
ø
-
On many mixing boards the phase reverse is signified by this
ø
My Trident preamps use this symbol to signify reverse as well. I was about to post it myself.
-
yup, but maybe he is referring to changing input impedances from very low to high?
I don't think so, but that probably wouldn't be a useful feature on a preamp that most people will use with condenser mics. A transformerless condenser mic has a mainly resistive source impedance, so if you lower the input impedance of the preamp, you will merely reduce the mic's output level rather than get an interesting tonal change--and probably also degrade its distortion performance (lower SPL handling).
Good gawd. I know I'm just kibitzing, but didn't understand a word you said. Is that English?
-
Thanks for the feedback. Polarity Reverse symbol updated.... also used an icon for the VU meter.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/2825042119_caed0a59e4_o.png)
-
I like the vu icon...
classic
-
Looks pretty nice! I like icons and no text.
Would it be possible to move the gain and volume knobs up just slightly? For some reason the left side seems to be be closer to the bottom and further away from the center hole than on the right. maybe its because there are two holes on the right, though
-
Don't forget to add the Five Fish Studios name and logo on there somewhere!
Will we be able to place orders with delivery in time for Christmas? ;D
-
Thanks for the feedback. Polarity Reverse symbol updated.... also used an icon for the VU meter.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/2825042119_caed0a59e4_o.png)
Personal preference, but I might replace the second and fourth dial logo with the text "TRIM".
Anyway, whatever you choose, it looks great...
Richard
-
Thanks for the feedback. Polarity Reverse symbol updated.... also used an icon for the VU meter.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/2825042119_caed0a59e4_o.png)
very nice
the VU is cool as well as 48v
and the phase reverse is good to
but
where is normal and where would reverse be...
I assume like the other switch?
left normal right reversed?
overall looks great!
!
:)
-- Ian
-
latest update...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2827350628_42a37d91c8_o.png)
Disaster averted... fixed wrong hole locations for the brackets. Ooops.
I *think* this is it..... final final final version. Will send this out for prototype manufacturing tomorrow.
If anybody has any more suggestions, let me know...
About the comment about using TRIM instead of the icon... I'm thinking about it. The current icon doesn't look like a TRIM.
Does anybody have a suggestion for a TRIM icon?
-
Three things:
Why not just label the trim knob, TRIM just like the gain knob says GAIN. It's consistent, looks good and is idiot-proof
I'd relabel both GAIN's as L-GAIN and R-GAIN. Again another idiot-proof thing to do.
Is there a better way to know/label which polarity setting the switch is on? Are the switches supposed to be set to the same position?
-
So, the BIG question: What's the ballpark price?
-
I'm run_run_run and I support this thread
-
So, the BIG question: What's the ballpark price?
The STOCK version (no HPF, no Input Trafo) I'm shooting for $499 introductory price. That's my target... at how long I can hold it at that price, don't know yet. It's hard when raw materials and costs are increasing everytime I place an order for parts.
-
At $499 I think you will sell a unit to damn near every person here on taperssection... :)
-
So, the BIG question: What's the ballpark price?
The STOCK version (no HPF, no Input Trafo) I'm shooting for $499 introductory price. That's my target... at how long I can hold it at that price, don't know yet. It's hard when raw materials and costs are increasing everytime I place an order for parts.
How much more for the high pass filter?
-
I decided to do some more additional "testing" to the pre....
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2828934886_8322706dc8.jpg)
Closeup...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3214/2828097435_23653fdcb0.jpg)
Extreme Closeup...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/2828934502_800cd49aae.jpg)
And the results of the testing...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2828934706_1a4be2333d.jpg)
Notice the dusty tire marks on top of the case. The bottom was a bit scratched on the aggregate driveway. But overall, it held up pretty well.
;D ;D ;D
-
Nice that it held up. If it hadn't I hate to think that all that development work went for naught.
and another vote to either spell out "trim" or shorten both gain and trim to G and T
-
I decided to do some more additional "testing" to the pre....
Now that makes it a bargain, a preamp and wheel chock all in one! What a deal!
-
can i have marconi knobs on mine? ;D
-
that's definitely one of the most unique tests I've ever seen performed with any kind of electronic equipment. totally amazing.
-
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2828934706_1a4be2333d.jpg)
Wow... the finished prototype looks really good. Love the blue color and the simple layout. Dig the icons and all, and I'll add my vote for "Trim" to go next to "Gain."
-
Havent posted in this thread for awhile.
My suggestions are as follows:
1. Spell out TRIM like otehrs have suggested.
2. Make sure we know where is ON and OFF for EACH switch like the Phase Reversal and On/Off switches, and the VU metering.
3. Have SOME KIND of numbering on the Gain knobs instead of just 'marks'. TRIM doesnt matter since the TRIM knobs will most likely 99% of teh time, be in different places on the knob/dial anyway. But Id LOVE to know EXACTLY wher my gain is at ALL TIMES just by looking at a number. That is, unless they 'lock' into their places every 6db. Do they 'snap/lock' into place or are they a variable knob ???
4. Make the cases ALL BLACK. It will be more stealthy and attract ALOT less attention than a darek blue case, at least IMO.
5. You mean they ALL dont have transformers in them? I am ONLY interested in one w/ TRANSFORMERS to warm up my MBHO's when recording indoors :)
Looks GREAT, and I cant believe you did the 'car' test ;D Frickin AMAZING bro! ;D 8)
-
And you need to develop your durability testing a bit more. Take this for example. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVxOm3lh1rw&feature=related
But you notice that they didn't subject it to the infamous "spun wookie" test.
-
But you notice that they didn't subject it to the infamous "spun wookie" test.
Take it to the zoo and let a gorilla throw it around for a day or two.
No wait...that's already been suggested above ^^. ;D
-
Question for the tekkies. We spend extra money for cables and many on TS.com agree that high quality silver cables make a sound difference. Wouldn't the same principle apply inside the box? For example, does a PC board with a certain type of metal foil have a different sound than a PC board with another type of metal foil.
BTW, I'm not making any suggestions related to the TS-2 or implying anything. It's just that the thought has occurred to me over the weeks that I've been reviewing this thread.
-
I decided to do some more additional "testing" to the pre....
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2828934886_8322706dc8.jpg)
Notice the dusty tire marks on top of the case. The bottom was a bit scratched on the aggregate driveway. But overall, it held up pretty well.
;D ;D ;D
Jeeze - it's between this and the V3 - cant decide....hey could somebody go out and run over their V3 for me so I can do a true A/B comparison!!!??? ;D
-
1. Spell out TRIM like otehrs have suggested.
Done. Panel sent for prototyping.
2. Make sure we know where is ON and OFF for EACH switch like the Phase Reversal and On/Off switches, and the VU metering.
The convention is left is OFF, right is ON.
3. Have SOME KIND of numbering on the Gain knobs instead of just 'marks'. TRIM doesnt matter since the TRIM knobs will most likely 99% of teh time, be in different places on the knob/dial anyway. But Id LOVE to know EXACTLY wher my gain is at ALL TIMES just by looking at a number. That is, unless they 'lock' into their places every 6db. Do they 'snap/lock' into place or are they a variable knob Huh?
They are Grayhill 12-step selector switch. Yes, they snap/lock into place... 12 positions. VERY HIGH QUALITY.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2829903327_605032fecb_m.jpg)
4. Make the cases ALL BLACK. It will be more stealthy and attract ALOT less attention than a darek blue case, at least IMO.
The case color can be replaced. I have a few different color options. Front panel will be anodized black.
5. You mean they ALL dont have transformers in them? I am ONLY interested in one w/ TRANSFORMERS to warm up my MBHO's when recording indoors Smiley
I will have Transformer versions (along with the HPF and Pad switch). This is just the STOCK version.
Thanks for the feedback!
-
I decided to do some more additional "testing" to the pre....
And the results of the testing...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2828934706_1a4be2333d.jpg)
Notice the dusty tire marks on top of the case. The bottom was a bit scratched on the aggregate driveway. But overall, it held up pretty well.
;D ;D ;D
very nice!
but it should have been ON & running with the meters blinking... :D
the target price of $499 is more than fair
and they way this Preamp has been cooperatively developed by TS'ers ideas and suggestions is awesome
thanx
-- Ian
-
Great work!! Looking forward to seeing these roll off of your one man assembly line. Thank you.
:clapping: :clapping:
-
Price is for a no trafo, no HPF and fully assembled.
-
1. Spell out TRIM like otehrs have suggested.
Done. Panel sent for prototyping.
2. Make sure we know where is ON and OFF for EACH switch like the Phase Reversal and On/Off switches, and the VU metering.
The convention is left is OFF, right is ON.
3. Have SOME KIND of numbering on the Gain knobs instead of just 'marks'. TRIM doesnt matter since the TRIM knobs will most likely 99% of teh time, be in different places on the knob/dial anyway. But Id LOVE to know EXACTLY wher my gain is at ALL TIMES just by looking at a number. That is, unless they 'lock' into their places every 6db. Do they 'snap/lock' into place or are they a variable knob Huh?
They are Grayhill 12-step selector switch. Yes, they snap/lock into place... 12 positions. VERY HIGH QUALITY.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2829903327_605032fecb_m.jpg)
4. Make the cases ALL BLACK. It will be more stealthy and attract ALOT less attention than a darek blue case, at least IMO.
The case color can be replaced. I have a few different color options. Front panel will be anodized black.
5. You mean they ALL dont have transformers in them? I am ONLY interested in one w/ TRANSFORMERS to warm up my MBHO's when recording indoors Smiley
I will have Transformer versions (along with the HPF and Pad switch). This is just the STOCK version.
Thanks for the feedback!
+T 5F ;D I REALLY APPRECIATE you taking the time to answer mine, and most everyone elses questions. You ARE THE FRICKIN MAN ;D 8)
And I def think that $499.00 is MORE THAN FAIR ENOUGH IMO ;D Do you have ANY IDEA how much the Transformer versions will be ??? I would want one w/ TRANSFORMERS, but WITHOUT HPF Filters ;) I have only used an HPF live twice ever(50Hz/6db Octave on my old V3). I do that kind of stuff in post these days if its even necessary ;) But I MUST HAVE TRANSFORMERS in my TS-2 :)
And really FiveFishDIY, we CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH for even listening to our needs, let alone putting them into EFFECT and making a product that is EXACTLY what 99% of us want and need :) The size looks to be ABSOLUTE PERFECT for our needs, and if the sound is HALF AS GOOD AS IT LOOKS, then I think we've all struck gold :) And I'm sure that it sounds just as nice as it looks :)
And if you need a beta tester, I'm your man ;) For real tho, depending on when you can get a prototype or 2 done for us tapers to try out in the field, you get ahold of me and let me know iof I can do ANYTHING to help. Because Pittsburgh has a good bit of shows coming up between now and Thanksgiving(if a prototype can even be accomplished and finished by then) and I could DEFINITELY give it a good run for its money w/ an ONSLAUGHT of shows to test it with ;) Obviously, I would be testing it w/ my MBHO Hypers(KA500HN's) or Cards(KA200N's) -> MBHO 603A Bodies -> TS-2 TRANSFORMER Preamp -> Sound Devices 722 [24-Bit/44.1kHz]
I would also LOVE to try out the TS-2 NON-TRANSFORMER-BASED Preamp ;)
And I do have one question for you tho. Have you even ran ANY kind of sound tests thru the TS-2 prototype you have done yet ??? If so, how would you categorize its sound ??? Transparent(I'm sure its more of a transparent sound since its NON-TRANSFORMER-BASED and all). Or does it have a slight warmth to it ??? I know, I know, we really cant make those calls yet since its so early in its inception, and it simply hasnt been run in the field yet w/ a variety of mics to determine that yet, but I was just curious!!! I am just VERY ANXIOUS to hear this sucka ASAP :)
And THANKS AGAIN for all you have done for us thus far brotha! Your work is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED :) I frickin CANNOT WAIT to buy and run one of your transformer-based TS-2 Preamps ;D 8) :smoking: :spin:
And if you could give me/us just an IDEA of how much the TS-2 TRANSFORMER-BASED Preamp would cost, I would really appreciate it. I just want to know so that I can start saving some $$ up :P ;D Obviously, its going to be more than the $499.00 price tag of the STOCK TS-2 preamp. I would guess that around the $6-700.00 would be fair. But then your wading in waters that have already been TRIED AND TRUE like w/ the Aerco Preamps. Theyre $750.00 NEW and are going to be your competition most likely, at least w/ the TRANSFORMER option ;) And if you can produce them quicker than Jerry from Aerco does(usually takes him anywhere from 2-5 months to complete an Aerco for someone) then you should be in good shape. Altho, I must say, if you are going to charge around the same as the Aerco costs for the Transformer-Based Preamp, then I think ALOT of folks would have to think LONG AND HARD whether to buy either your TS-2 preamp or the Aerco. I think that just because the Aerco name has been around for SOOOO LONG, and Jerry's quality standards have already been achieved for many years and he already has a great reputation in the taping community for building GREAT SOUNDING TRANSFORMER-BASED PREAMPS, that ALOT of folks may choose to buy an Aerco, that is, unless you can sell for AT LEAST $100.00 or more LESS than the Aerco costs. IMO, thats the ONLY WAY you can undercut the Aerco's price and make people buy your TS2 Transformer-Based Preamp over Jerry's Aerco Preamps :)
To be 100% honest, unless your TS-2 Transformer-Based Preamp is a good bit cheaper than the Aerco by AT LEAST $100.00 or more, then I would probably buy an Aerco instead. Just because of Jerry being around for so long and we all know he knows his shit(not saying you dont, because you obviously do) but thats a tough call for alot of folks. We already know how AMAZING the Aerco sounds, and I think alot of tapers would rather go the tried and true method for a transformer-based preamp(The Aerco) rather than buy something new and theyre unsure exactly how its going to sound until some tapers start running them for AT LEAST 6 months or so!
That said, I guess I would be one of the guinea pigs and shell out the cash for one of your TS-2 Transformer-Based Preamps, because the ONLY WAY we're going to find out hwo it sounds, is to use the things as much as possible in the field :)
I would just hate for you to put ALL of this time and money and energy into a transformer-based preamp and then it not sell too well because a person could buy an Aerco for around the same amount of cash($$). IF the Aerco is going to be your competition both sound-wise and price-wise, the one main thing that may definitely go your way is quickness and speed compared to the Aerco tho. Jerry takes a good amount of time from the time you order/make a downpayment, to the time its 100% finished. So if you could get us tapers a preamp within a week or 2 after placing the order/making a downpayment/whatever, then you should be pretty good to go. Because I know if I had the choice between the Aerco and the TS-2(Transformer-Based Option obviously) and they were around the same price tag, but I could get your TS-2 ALOT QUICKER than it would take me to get the Aerco, then Id DEFINITELY buy from you, without a doubt :) ;)
So, when do you *think* that these will hit the streets and we can FINALLY start to use your TS2 Preamps ??? Before the end of the year ??? Does that sound reasonable ??? Obviously, we want to use your preamps BADLY and are salivating over them on the computer screen, but are really in NO HURRY, as I'm sure I speak for EVERYONE on ts.com about this, but I'M SURE we'd all rather have a flawless preamp w/ EVERY DETAIL looked over very well, and would rather wait until it was PERFECTED, rather than to rush and get a few out just to get them done as quickly as possible :) BUT, I am SUPER ANXIOUS to run one of those. So, take your time like you have done thus far, and make sure everything is as perfect as can be on it(well as perfect as possible anyway) and it will DEFINITELY pay off in the end ;)
Now hurry the hell up and get these done for us. And dont forget to start pumping out those TS-2 TRANSFORMER-BASED PREAMPS AS SOON as the STOCK TS-2 prototype's are done ;D 8) :smoking: :spin: And I'm obviously just kidding of course. Well, kind of ;D 8)
KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Oh, and just ONE MORE QUESTION FiveFishDIY. About those switches above the gain/trim knobs, the ones that control the VU Meters/+48v/Phase Reversal/On/Off switch. Now, are those just simple switches that just push to the right or to teh left ??? Or are they the nicer kind that you ahve to pull up on first before you can move it to the left or right ??? Its just sort of a safety switch because they somewhat 'lock' into place, and have to be pulled upwards before they can be moved to On/Off ala teh NBox/NBox+ On/Off switch.
Id MUCH PREFER the kind of switches like the NBox/NBox+ has that you have to pull directly upwards before you can move the switch to the left/right. That way, it would help prevent the switch getting accidentally bumped in a stealth situation or iof my bag got bumped while on the floor, or some drunk dude stepped onto my bag while I was recording. If you had those locking switches that you have to pull directly upwards before you can move them from the position theyre in, then theyd be damn near impossible to mess up a recording, because any kind of impact to them that isnt wanted(like a stealth taper accidentally bumpng his TS-2 preamp when checking/adjusting levels, or the drunk guy who is WASTED and steps onto my bag while Im recording, which happens ALOT at Mr. Smalls Theatre here in Pittsburgh, since where we setup to record is RIGHT OUTSIDE the bar entrance/exit :P ) but those kinds of motions would be a DOWNWARD motion, thus would not affect us AT ALL if you used those locking switches ;) Id rather pay the extra $$ to have those locking switches(if you can even call them 'locking switches'). But do you know what exactly Im talking about? Oooops, I forgot who I was talking to there for a second. Im POSITIVE you know what Im talking about. I just hope you can incorporate them into the design, because NOTHING would suck worse than having switches that ARE NOT recessed and can EASILY be accidentally bumped into the opposite position than where wed want them to be :P :'(
Hmmmm, wonder how many more times I can say 'locking switches' in this post without confusing you more already? ;D
-
Wow, that was a mouthful Beaner! ::) :o ;)
-
Thanks for the detailed feedback. I appreciate it.
Okay, let's see...Let me share with you my thoughts.
At the moment, I'm making a 2nd prototype. Trying to see how long it takes me to build one... given this is just a sidejob and not a full time job. Also, just making sure that the pre works everytime it's built. (On my SC-1 preamp, I built something like 7-8 prototypes before selling the 1st kit.)
There will definitely be a transformer based preamp. I'd like to get the stock version out first... and use the income from that to further fund development of the transformer-based preamp.
Considering the time it takes to build a unit, the $499 price may be an introductory price. This price is me doing almost FREE labor, i.e. the time I spend on it is more than I charge for it. I'm asking around how much it would take for an assembly factory to do that job for me, and yikes!... the $499 price isn't justifiable.
The trafo based preamp with the HPF and relay controls... (and not counting factory labor, and just me doing the labor), will probably be in the $700-800++ range? I don't know yet for sure. I'd like to sell at a low price, while covering costs and making a good enough profit to make it worth my time... Otherwise, I could just spend my time on my regular business and charge clients my regular rate. At the moment, what I charge for labor for these pres are way way way low than my regular job rate. If I can find a factory that will do all the work for me, and doesn't charge me too much, sell at a low price, and I make up for it in volume, then I'll be happy with that. Right now, I'm in startup mode... bootstrapping, watching my expenses and scraping every few dollar I can find to keep this going.
I'm sure the Aerco sounds nice since a lot of you guys really dig it. Some people might prefer the established Aerco and some may want to try a new one. That's cool with me. Choices are good. Different flavors are good. Just don't forget the fact that the two preamps are totally DIFFERENT, and will appeal to different people. The size, form factor, features, controls, choice of components, build quality, power supply requirements, are all different. Take that into consideration, and don't just compare the bottom price alone.
Honestly, I don't consider it as my competition. Instead, I see Sound Devices, Grace, RNP as my competition (both in the tapers world, and home studio recording world).... and I'm the big crazy, mad underdog. I don't have deep pockets that affords me the economies of scale, that will let me buy parts in greater bulk at a greater discount, I'm using PTH instead of SMD parts, so right there, my parts and labor costs are high compared to these guys. I don't have dealers and distribution... so it will be tough for me to compete against these guys who already have great products and great track record!
It's like.... what the heck am I doing this????
I realize I am CRAZY for even doing this (wife says so)... but I LOVE doing this. I love doing electronics, thinking up things, planning, debugging and love hearing the feedback from satisifed buyers/users of my kits/preamps. It doesn't feel like work to me. It's having FUN and doing something I love, and making something what I think is GOOD, VERY GOOD and some people seem to agree with me also.
If all I care about is money, then the SMARTEST thing for me to do is stop this nonsense, concentrate on my consulting business and make a guaranteed $75 per hour.... I am buried with work and have fallen a bit behind on that... because of this preamp business. But there's not much fun in my regular day job (been doing it for the last 8 yrs now)... at least, not this kind of fun working with preamps and electronics!
As for the sound, see what other people have said here:
http://fivefishstudios.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=46
The TS-2 is based on my SC-1 preamp. Here are audio samples of my SC-1 preamp (no transformers).
http://fivefishstudios.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=48
And oh yeah.... I've been fortunate that my SC-1 pre has been mentioned in MIX magazine, used as the reference preamp in testing these 2 microphones. I'm thinking ... "if it's good enough to be used for that, and mentioned in a national, well-respected magazine for recording engineers, then it must be ....<fill in the blank> :)
AUGUST 2008 issue
(http://www.fivefish.net/images/MIX-Aug2008.jpg)
Field Test: Avant Electronics Avantone CK-40 Stereo Mic
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_avant_electronics_avantone/
and also back in MAY 2008 issue
(http://www.fivefish.net/images/MIX-May2008.jpg)
Field Test: Peluso 22 47SE Tube Microphone
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_peluso_se_tube/
My switches are not switched UP/DOWN but instead are switched LEFT/RIGHT. In addition, the toggle handles just sticks out behind the hole and you'd have to use your fingernails or small fingers to slide it left or right. Very difficult for somebody to step on it and have it switched accidentally.
Thanks for the comments and feedback!
-
If I can find a factory that will do all the work for me, and doesn't charge me too much, sell at a low price, and I make up for it in volume, then I'll be happy with that. Right now, I'm in startup mode... bootstrapping, watching my expenses and scraping every few dollar I can find to keep this going.
Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China. It's not as hard to set up as you may think, once you have some reliable contacts there. You could start with them populating & testing boards and shipping them to you for final assembly, or go the whole hog.
Your current pricing puts you only $160 below a Sound Devices MixPre. Factoring in the need for external power for the TS-2 it's ~$90 less.
digifish
-
Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China.
Personally, I would rather pay a higher price than see this made in china.
-
100 units a month? I wish!... but probably not... 15-20 units will be good. 5 will be more likely.
If I'm consistently hitting a consistent number of units sold per month, I will definitely switch to SMT. I'm not even going to attempt to do 100 units a month manually.
I've talked to a company here in the U.S. for assembly work and I have their estimate. I'm running the numbers. It could work... the challenge is coming up with the big money upfront to purchase parts, and pay for labor.
UPDATE: I finished and tested the 2nd prototype TS-2 motherboard, swapped the boards with the 1st prototype and worked really nice at first powerup! No problems.
-
Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China.
Personally, I would rather pay a higher price than see this made in china.
You can specify whatever quality you need, and manufacturing costs would be 10-20% that of doing it in the US.
digifish
-
Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China.
Personally, I would rather pay a higher price than see this made in china.
You can specify whatever quality you need, and manufacturing costs would be 10-20% that of doing it in the US.
digifish
I understand you can get whatever quality you are willing to pay for from China, my reason for not wanting to purchase Chinese goods has more to do with political views and the fact that I work in the manufacturing sector and I am tired of seeing American jobs going offshore.
I have no problems paying a premium for domestically made goods.
-
All right - noob question - what's all this talk about transformers and transfomer-less versions?
Where in the chain are the transformers used for what and why would one want/not want them?
thanks
s
-
Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China.
Personally, I would rather pay a higher price than see this made in china.
You can specify whatever quality you need, and manufacturing costs would be 10-20% that of doing it in the US.
digifish
I understand you can get whatever quality you are willing to pay for from China, my reason for not wanting to purchase Chinese goods has more to do with political views and the fact that I work in the manufacturing sector and I am tired of seeing American jobs going offshore.
I have no problems paying a premium for domestically made goods.
I agree. I would prefer that this product designed in the USA be manufactured in the USA and I would pay to keep it that way.
-
Initial units will be manually assembled.
If the monthly volume demand is low, they'll continually to be manually assembled.
If the monthly volume is fairly consistent, assembly by a US based company and conversion to SMD is the next step.
I'm not even thinking beyond that.
So to those who are worried about China assembly... there's nothing to worry about. That will be like STEP 100, and I'm only on STEP 1. I don't even know if it will get to Step 100.
-
you could run a series of 25 units at introduction price with prepayment,then after evaluating the first sale , come to conclusion of whether getting these produced somewhere else ..
-
Jeeze - it's between this and the V3 - cant decide....hey could somebody go out and run over their V3 for me so I can do a true A/B comparison!!!??? ;D
This has nothing to do with anything, but Metric Halo ran over their devices with a front-end loader or similar equipment. Those little aluminum boxes can take a ton (literally)!
-
Just re-reading this (and pt 1)... was there a final decision on offering an 1/8" output for those
with recorders that use them?
What I can gather about the transformers is that they're just another option (vs. passive resistors) to
attenuate the signal - that can be argued sound better/are better than a passive system. Am I even
on the right track here?
thanksm
scot
-
What I can gather about the transformers is that they're just another option (vs. passive resistors) to
attenuate the signal - that can be argued sound better/are better than a passive system. Am I even
on the right track here?
No, input transformers on a mic preamp usually serve one or more of the following purposes:
1) Eliminate the need for input capacitors
2) Provide very high common mode rejection ratio (rejection of interference in a balanced circuit)
3) Provide some amount of gain (not attenuation!), to improve the noise performance of the circuit
4) Provide a sonic benefit due to desirable nonlinearities
5) Convert the incoming balanced signal to unbalanced, for the following amplifier stage
You can use a transformer to attenuate a signal, but that's not usually done at the input stage, because it would degrade the noise performance of the circuit. Also, there is nothing wrong with using resistors for attenuation, that's the way it's usually done, except it would be switchable. It's also possible to use a multitap transformer for switchable attenuation, but I don't know if anybody does that.
#5 is handy for some preamp designs, because it saves you an amplifier stage. It wouldn't matter in this design because of the use of the instrumentation amp.
OK, thanks for the response (if I can kibitz because I've wondered about transformers too). However, for the people that aren't electricians or sound engineers, can I ask more questions in an attempt to translate (transform :-\) your answer a little bit?
1) you said that transformers reduces capacitors...I guess that's a good thing from the standpoint of less parts needed in the design (less to solder onto a board and less that can go wrong)
2) I kinda understand this one...it's the concept of the opposite sound waves canceling each other out. So, I guess what is happening is the transformers are using this concept to eliminate undesirable (maybe non-hearing range?) frequencies from passing by cancellation, but allowing the frequencies in the hearing range to pass? Got a feeling I'm not on the right track here.
3) OK, number 3 is easy enough to understand.
4) In other words, the transformers can take specific frequencies and amplify them differently to provide different overall output 'flavors' (warm, transparent, cool, etc), rather than amplifying all frequencies exactly the same amount?
5) You explained that one a bit, but frankly that seems more design related than anything and doesn't have any relationship to what the end user cares about.
Please explain if I'm on the right track with these elaborations. Thanks!
-
1) you said that transformers reduces capacitors...I guess that's a good thing from the standpoint of less parts needed in the design (less to solder onto a board and less that can go wrong)
#1. Transformers block DC voltage (from the phantom power) going to the mic pre stage. Because DC cannot travel from the primary winding to the secondary winding... only AC voltages can do that (which is the mic signal in this case.) A tiny capacitor can do the same thing, DC blocking.
Yes, you have one less capacitor to solder but trafos bring its own kind of baggage. Trafos are expensive, bulky, heavy. And in a market where users are price conscious, trafo-based gear is usually out of the question. So while a trafo will get rid of that small capacitor, it brings with it it's own set of "cons.".... $$$ of the part being the biggest thing. The bulkiness of it demands a bigger case, which is more $. The heaviness of it adds shipping weight, which adds to shipping cost, which is more $.
If the market is willing to pay for it, then trafos are used.
Got a feeling I'm not on the right track here.
#2. In simpler words, using a transformer on the input chain makes for a very quiet, clean signal with injected noise being cancelled out due to CMRR properties of the trafo. Hum induced on the line is also cancelled out and does not get transferred to the secondary windings.
#4. The different materials used in the trafo core affects distortion and other things. Things that are then described as "flavor". Some core materials have minimum distortion and sounds clean, while others add some bit of flavor. There is also some phase changes going on.
#5. Normally, a mic pre circuit is unbalanced and you use a transformer to convert from balanced to unbalanced.
With the THAT chips I'm using, it's a little different. The balanced signals of the microphone goes directly into the chip. So a trafo is not necessary nor do I need a separate balanced receiver circuit to do the "unbalancing."
-
Awesome- thanks all for the transformer discussion!
scot
-
Awesome- thanks all for the transformer discussion!
scot
Yes good stuff.
-
Anyone else getting TS-2 withdrawls here? :)
scot
-
Update: Just waiting for the front panels from the prototype shop. Won't be here until next week.
In the meantime, I found an old project I was working on back in 2005/06?
(Not tapers related, but since we're talking preamps here.... :) This is old school discrete design, home-etch PCB, Ferric Chloride, manual drilling and none of that fancy silkscreen, no IC chips, just plain old fashioned transistors and input transformers and output transformers running on high voltage DC.... yup... this guy is not "green-friendly"... Bigger is better, more is better, the more you live, the more you love.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2855380866_08452ba9f5_o.gif)
Replaced and upgraded the PSU with my new PSU-4448 kit design. Replaced XLRs and just soldered all loose connections.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2857232532_8ded0b3e4c.jpg?v=0)
Output I measured is more than the limit on my oscilloscope.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3285/2857232740_1ede59a975.jpg)
Looking good at 50khz and I measured 46+ Volts peak-to-peak before clipping.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2856400901_7d6a8c8bb3.jpg)
YES! 46+ Volts... which is not unusual since the whole preamp is running and requires a supply voltage of 48Volts.
Absurd! Overkill! But whoa!... the sound... it's phat and beefy and just too much... 46Vpp!!! Did you see the size of that output transformer?
This will bring into submission any AD converter that is unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end. It will slap that AD converter silly. :) :)
and now back to regular programming....
.
-
Well, why haven't you? :P It sounds interesting, with all the new micro recorders seemingly most all with noisy pre sections... We need companion pres for the Zooms, R-09's, DR-1 (gt-1), iRivers, Oly LS-10's etc, etc.
It really is a great time to be a taper!
+t to 5Fish and MSHilarious for the open design process.
-
You really think 100 units is realistic?
Well, that depends on price, doesn't it? But no, I don't think that's necessarily long-term demand, but initial demand, given the interest on this thread, could be quite high. The difficulty is if one plans for production of ~5 units per month, and initial demand is say 50 units, then the backlog will never go away, at least for a very long time. Then you end up with the 2-5 month lead time you see from other vendors.
I will say it's not an accurate gauge of demand to look at kit units sold. The interest in assembled units is at least 10x kits.
Then it becomes a chicken-and-egg problem: you can't fill demand without designing the process for that demand; you can't generate the demand without hitting the price point, which requires the higher quantity. So then if you have a process designed for low unit volume, once you get tired of losing every evening to soldering, the backlog grows and demand slows down . . .
I dont think demand and price point have anything to do with each other. I build by hand 20-30 preamps a month + microphones... A product is in demand because its good not because its cheap especially in a market where the consumer knows the difference.
-
I dont think demand and price point have anything to do with each other. I build by hand 20-30 preamps a month + microphones... A product is in demand because its good not because its cheap especially in a market where the consumer knows the difference.
::gets in back of line::
-
;D ;D ;D
(http://www.chs.org/graphcoll/images/1995_36_1304.jpg)
;D ;D ;D
-
;D ;D ;D
(http://www.chs.org/graphcoll/images/1995_36_1304.jpg)
;D ;D ;D
My apologies I meant no disrespect to you or your product and I did not mean to derail your thread.
Chris
-
More transformer talk pleas. :P
(http://images.wikia.com/transformers/images/9/99/Megatronguido.jpg)
-
^^ OK, in response to a couple people that are still curious...and because I still have additional curiousity about preamps and some things that you said...I'll ask another noob electronics question. Following is quoted your response in an earlier thread and question follows...
1) you said that transformers reduces capacitors...I guess that's a good thing from the standpoint of less parts needed in the design (less to solder onto a board and less that can go wrong)
#1. Transformers block DC voltage (from the phantom power) going to the mic pre stage. Because DC cannot travel from the primary winding to the secondary winding... only AC voltages can do that (which is the mic signal in this case.) A tiny capacitor can do the same thing, DC blocking.
Yes, you have one less capacitor to solder but trafos bring its own kind of baggage. Trafos are expensive, bulky, heavy. And in a market where users are price conscious, trafo-based gear is usually out of the question. So while a trafo will get rid of that small capacitor, it brings with it it's own set of "cons.".... $$$ of the part being the biggest thing. The bulkiness of it demands a bigger case, which is more $. The heaviness of it adds shipping weight, which adds to shipping cost, which is more $.
If the market is willing to pay for it, then trafos are used.
For those of us that view electronics as mysterious boxes in which magic happens inside, your response sparked additional curiosity. So you said that transformers blocks DC voltage from going to the mic pre-stage. Is that to say then that microphone phantom power is DC voltage and the rest of the pre-amp operates off of AC?
If that's the case, then I'm curious...if there's no transformer in many circuits, how does the DC power from a battery get switched to AC to power the preamp?
Actually this seems totally wrong to me, but I'll leave the question as it stands and suffer the consequences of appearing to be really stupid in this thread. :-\
-
super simplistic answer: no A/C(for power anyway) in there, its all D/C. you want to block D/C from entering or leaving the preamp on signal lines(except for P48 on the input). to further complicate things, the mic signal is actually A/C. ;D
Edit: Chris says it better below....
-
^^ OK, in response to a couple people that are still curious...and because I still have additional curiousity about preamps and some things that you said...I'll ask another noob electronics question. Following is quoted your response in an earlier thread and question follows...
1) you said that transformers reduces capacitors...I guess that's a good thing from the standpoint of less parts needed in the design (less to solder onto a board and less that can go wrong)
#1. Transformers block DC voltage (from the phantom power) going to the mic pre stage. Because DC cannot travel from the primary winding to the secondary winding... only AC voltages can do that (which is the mic signal in this case.) A tiny capacitor can do the same thing, DC blocking.
Yes, you have one less capacitor to solder but trafos bring its own kind of baggage. Trafos are expensive, bulky, heavy. And in a market where users are price conscious, trafo-based gear is usually out of the question. So while a trafo will get rid of that small capacitor, it brings with it it's own set of "cons.".... $$$ of the part being the biggest thing. The bulkiness of it demands a bigger case, which is more $. The heaviness of it adds shipping weight, which adds to shipping cost, which is more $.
If the market is willing to pay for it, then trafos are used.
For those of us that view electronics as mysterious boxes in which magic happens inside, your response sparked additional curiosity. So you said that transformers blocks DC voltage from going to the mic pre-stage. Is that to say then that microphone phantom power is DC voltage and the rest of the pre-amp operates off of AC?
If that's the case, then I'm curious...if there's no transformer in many circuits, how does the DC power from a battery get switched to AC to power the preamp?
Actually this seems totally wrong to me, but I'll leave the question as it stands and suffer the consequences of appearing to be really stupid in this thread. :-\
The transformer in this case blocks the DC from entering the input stage of the preamp. Normally you would use dc blocking caps to do this. The whole circuit operates from DC. The only ac part of the equation is the input signal it self. Transformers also tend to increase the CMR or common mode rejection of the input stage making for a quiet preamp design.
Sometimes you use a transformer with a higher ratio to also increase the gain before the first solid state stage to help reduce the need for added gain in later stages. That is another often not talked about advantage to transformers. A transformer is like a speaker in the sense that it transfers energy thus it changes the sound of the input signal by varying degrees, a transformer transfers it from one set of coils to another via induction. This also causes a transfer function effect where the transfer of signals from primary coil to secondary is not linear. Thus the flavor aspect comes into play. This is the main reason why some preamps sound better then others. Because solid state electronics by them selves are pretty linear by design. Transformers add that color to the signal that is hard to get in plain old solid state circuit design.
Chris
-
[several responses answered the question while I was typing, but here's a bit more detail]
Although I should defer the to builders, I'll take a swing at answering your question to exercise my brain. If I get a detail wrong, please correct me.
There is the signal from the mic which is a fluctuating AC voltage and there is power to operate the mic and preamp circuitry which is a steady DC voltage. Usually those are kept separate though the entire recording chain and that is the case for the recorder, the preamp and for non-phantom or plug-in powered microphones. Dynamic mics don't need power to operate and tube microphones have their own dedicated power supplies and multi-pin cables that keep the signal from the mic and power to the mic separate. DC voltage present on the A/C signal is called a DC offset and designers use a capacitor in series with the signal or a transformer across it to eliminate any DC offset that may be present in the AC signal between each stage or component (mic>preamp>ADC). Phantom power and plug-in power is a way of powering condenser mics by combining the normally separate DC voltage to power the mic with the AC signal from the mic in the mic cable. Both the power and signal share the same wires from the mic to the preamp. Instead of the AC signal waveform fluctuating around 0 volts by going positive, then negative, then positive again, it fluctuates around the DC powering voltage of say +48v. So the the voltage in the cable goes up a little above +48Vdc and down a little below +48Vdc. At the preamp side, after the point were the DC phantom power is applied to drive the mic, that DC component is removed or 'blocked' with a capacitor or transformer, leaving just the AC signal fluctuating around 0 volts again heading into the preamplifier circuit.
-
Well, everyone's already got this one covered and I should just keep quiet probably, but in case it would help some people hear it all in hopefully more simplified terms:
-the preamp operates on DC voltage, which comes from the battery
-a condenser microphone needs to operate off DC voltage, which is provided by the preamp as phantom power (+48v DC)
-the microphone sends out an AC signal, which is used to capture the audio as a voltage signal
What happens is the preamp sends out say +48v DC voltage to the mics to allow them to work. The mics then capture the sound as an AC voltage and combine that AC voltage with the +48v DC voltage that the preamp has already put on the lines (the mic cable). When the voltage signal returns from the mics to the preamp, as a combined AC + DC voltage, the preamp must strip off the DC voltage since it only wants to amplify the AC voltage (the audio signal) and send that alone off to the A/D converter or recorder.
The two general means used to strip off this DC voltage is to use capacitors or to use transformers, both of which will block DC voltage from passing through but will allow AC voltage to pass through. Capacitors or transformers also have other properties and other effects on the sound which have been discussed above, but to meet the need of blocking phantom power/DC voltage, a preamp will typically make use of one of these two options.
-
Thanks for jumping in and answering guys!
This remains unanswered so I'll give it a shot.
how does the DC power from a battery get switched to AC to power the preamp?
First, I think we need to straighten some things up.
The amplifier/preamp circuit operates on DC voltages. This voltage/power is supplied by a battery or a DC power supply unit.
The miniscule AC signal you have at the input, think of it as a "control" signal. That's all it is.
To really understand what is going on, you have to go back to the basics... in this case, all about Transistors.
You may be thinking... But we're not using transistors. We're using IC chips... opamps to be exact. Well, Op amps are just a bunch of transistors arranged in a specific way.
So going back to basics, a transistor device allows you to control the large flow of current at it's collector by feeding it a small input current at it's base terminal.
The relationship between how much Collector current you get, by how much base current you feed to it is called the Current gain Hfe of the transistor. For some transistors, this could vary by 10x to 100x or even more.
Still with me? Let's simplify things. Let's look at a single transistor.
The Base is connected to your mic signal. The Collector is where you get your output. The Collector gets it's power source from a battery.
So now, the varying, miniscule input voltage (coming from the mic) signal is fed to the base of your transistor which in effect causes a varying but larger voltage change at the collector of your transistor (which is where you get the output).
So what's really happening here is this... your preamp's output voltage comes from the DC power supply. (Not from the inputted ac signal.)
But now you're probably more confused... you're probably thinking if the output voltage is supplied by the DC power supply, how did it become an AC signal then????
Ahhh. because this varying DC voltage induced at the collector goes to another output capacitor, or output transformer. <--- I bet you didn't see that coming.
What happens next is the DC component at the output is blocked, and only the varying voltage level is passed through by the output transformer or output capacitor. Except this time, we're talking about voltage levels that are much higher! But nevertheless, almost an exact copy of the input signal! (Remember the Hfe, Current gain capability of the transistor we discussed above?)
The above is just a simplification of things, but that's the gist of what happens.
So by knowing the above things, you can see how
a) Any hum on the DC supply voltage will show as hum on your output signal.
b) The maximum output voltage capability of your preamp is dependent on your DC supply voltage.
c) If you feed a large input signal to your amplifying device, and multiply this by the gain of the preamp, but there is not enough DC supply voltage to properly represent that input signal at the output, then you get a flat top waveform, i.e. maximum reached (see note B above). .... we call this "clipping"
OF course, there are some tricks to get around some of these problems.
*You can get rid of the output capacitor by using DC Servos. (which is what I'm using on the TS-2)
*You can further increase the output signal for "free" (i.e. not dependent on the DC supply voltage) by using an output transformer with a 1:2 ratio or higher.
*You can use DC-DC converters so that you can convert a small DC supply voltage (say 9V or 12V) to a higher DC supply voltage for your preamp, thus giving you more headroom and more maximum output voltage capability. (which is again, also what I'm doing with the TS-2 preamp)
Hope this explains a little some of the things happening, of how/why it's happening.
-
What exactly is a "DC Servo" ??? - I see that referenced on some of my gear inputs...
-
What exactly is a "DC Servo" ??? - I see that referenced on some of my gear inputs...
It's basically an opamp configured as an "integrator".... as in "integrals", remember calculus?
The simplest explanation is it cancels out the "constant" DC voltage offset at the output of the preamp stage by using an integrator circuit to feed a control voltage back to the "reference" pin of the preamp stage.
Result? the constant DC at the preamp output is removed without using capacitors in the signal path.
Why do we want to remove the DC anyway? Because they reduce dynamic range that is available for your preamp. Remember, your preamp has a maximum output capability (limited by your DC supply voltage). If the "baseline" of your AC signal output is at some DC level above the "0" mark... you're basically eating up into your headroom, and limiting your headroom and dynamic range. i.e. you're going to clip early.
Reality is, with today's excellent manufacturing and chip designs... the DC offset voltages are really really low. We're talking like millivolts, microvolts here.
So why don't all big manufacturers use DC servos? Well... maybe because it adds to the cost. You have another opamp chip and support components, and it eats up board space, and makes everything just complex. You have another active component that might break down, more power consumption, etc,.... when a single capacitor costing pennies can do the same job of removing DC. (like what I said, chips nowadays have excellent DC offsets... almost negligible... so maybe a capacitor will be just fine! I did listening tests to my pre, and it doesn't make a difference I can tell whether I'm running DC servo or capacitor coupling. Either ways, I provided a jumper for both options.)
But you know what, I'm not a big manufacturer. I don't sell hundreds of thousands or millions of units. So spending a few extra dollars for the DC servo instead of pennies on capacitors won't mean a potential loss of millions of $ of profit for me.
I can afford it ;D
-
What exactly is a "DC Servo" ??? - I see that referenced on some of my gear inputs...
It's basically an opamp configured as an "integrator".... as in "integrals", remember calculus?
The simplest explanation is it cancels out the "constant" DC voltage offset at the output of the preamp stage by using an integrator circuit to feed a control voltage back to the "reference" pin of the preamp stage.
Result? the constant DC at the preamp output is removed without using capacitors in the signal path.
Why do we want to remove the DC anyway? Because they reduce dynamic range that is available for your preamp. Remember, your preamp has a maximum output capability (limited by your DC supply voltage). If the "baseline" of your AC signal output is at some DC level above the "0" mark... you're basically eating up into your headroom, and limiting your headroom and dynamic range. i.e. you're going to clip early.
Reality is, with today's excellent manufacturing and chip designs... the DC offset voltages are really really low. We're talking like millivolts, microvolts here.
So why don't all big manufacturers use DC servos? Well... maybe because it adds to the cost. You have another opamp chip and support components, and it eats up board space, and makes everything just complex. You have another active component that might break down, more power consumption, etc,.... when a single capacitor costing pennies can do the same job of removing DC. (like what I said, chips nowadays have excellent DC offsets... almost negligible... so maybe a capacitor will be just fine! I did listening tests to my pre, and it doesn't make a difference I can tell whether I'm running DC servo or capacitor coupling. Either ways, I provided a jumper for both options.)
But you know what, I'm not a big manufacturer. I don't sell hundreds of thousands or millions of units. So spending a few extra dollars for the DC servo instead of pennies on capacitors won't mean a potential loss of millions of $ of profit for me.
I can afford it ;D
Thank you - looking forward to acquiring one of your new pre's!!
;D
-
Just a quick update....
I'm trying to explore the possibility of using LASER engraved panels. This is a flatbed scan of a RED panel sent by a laser engraving company to me. I can't wait to get my hands on the actual panel. He said it turned out really nice.
So we'll see.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2874273322_06e0803b50.jpg)
When I get the sample, I'll mill the holes using my in-house CNC.... this is going to be great.
I'll try to have other colors laser engraved next... maybe a dark blue or black anodized.
-
Is it my imagination, or is the "R" in "TRIM" backwards?
Maybe using the Cyrillic alphabet font in the laser machine?
-
Looks backwards to me as well. :hmmm:
-
^^^ It's not trim, it's the MIRT control. ;D
-
Woohoo... I have in my hands the new CNC engraved front panel prototype.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2879995273_92d3a3900a.jpg)
Still waiting for the Laser engraved front panels to arrive, then I'll do a comparison based on looks and cost factor.
The cost of these panels are very high though... yikes. But man, they sure do look good!
I'll try to fit them on the prototype case to get the full effect.
-
That looks sharp!
-
And I like that you've gone back to spelling out Gain and Trim! Looks nice.
scot
-
Here it is....
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3177/2880373667_2edb5c356c.jpg)
Just a few minor adjustments in the panel... deleting one hole, adjusting the switch holes by 1mm, and maybe using a 1mm less thick panel so the toggle switch handles peek out more.
But so far, I LIKE IT! ;D
-
Looks great! Can we see picture of the other sides so we ca see all the connectors? Demanding bunch, aren't we? Thanks for what you are doing, I need to start saving my pennies so I can buy one soon.
-
This is just the prototype case, so the (4) XLRs were at the side.... the final version will have (4) XLRs and the locking DC jack (Switchcraft) all at the rear panel.
-
This is just the prototype case, so the (4) XLRs were at the side.... the final version will have (4) XLRs and the locking DC jack (Switchcraft) all at the rear panel.
Thanks for clearing that up! Now I know.
-
This is just the prototype case, so the (4) XLRs were at the side.... the final version will have (4) XLRs and the locking DC jack (Switchcraft) all at the rear panel.
So it's official that there won't be an 1/8" out for us poor folk with low-end recorders....?
thanks
s
-
This is just the prototype case, so the (4) XLRs were at the side.... the final version will have (4) XLRs and the locking DC jack (Switchcraft) all at the rear panel.
So it's official that there won't be an 1/8" out for us poor folk with low-end recorders....?
thanks
s
I'm sure an adapter cable could be rigged up.
-
This is just the prototype case, so the (4) XLRs were at the side.... the final version will have (4) XLRs and the locking DC jack (Switchcraft) all at the rear panel.
So it's official that there won't be an 1/8" out for us poor folk with low-end recorders....?
I really would like the 1/8" out....at least have it as an option.
-
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/287017.html
(http://www.fullcompass.com/common/products/lg/14849.jpg)
available in both female and male versions to buy, or make your own. Quick and easy either way. XLR > 1/8" is something you should have in your bag anyway if you have a small recorder with 1/8" input..
Fivefish, that pre is looking f@cking tight man!
-
1/8" out will be available as an extra mod... (and will cost extra... for the part, drilling, wiring, labor, time)
-
1/8" out will be available as an extra mod... (and will cost extra... for the part, drilling, wiring, labor, time)
That's great!
personally I wouldn't want one
but I know some folks would
and to offer it as an option is great
thanx for developing this and working along with our suggestions!
-- Ian
-
Indeed- Excellent! :)
scot
-
Looking very nice five...
:clapping:
-
This is just the prototype case, so the (4) XLRs were at the side.... the final version will have (4) XLRs and the locking DC jack (Switchcraft) all at the rear panel.
side XLR's would be good for us who route cables in a shoulder bag and need access to the front panel from above
cables out the back would make it difficult to use the pre in the field
optional side placement of XLR's???
-
I have been following this thread (pre-amp junkie) and must say that this unit is beautiful. I can not wait to hear it Thank you for taking the time to keep the community involved - the 'taper' pre will be a welcome addition to the gear bag :)
This is just the prototype case, so the (4) XLRs were at the side.... the final version will have (4) XLRs and the locking DC jack (Switchcraft) all at the rear panel.
side XLR's would be good for us who route cables in a shoulder bag and need access to the front panel from above
cables out the back would make it difficult to use the pre in the field
optional side placement of XLR's???
I think this would work out really well. For my box/bag/whatever, side access would make my life much easier.
-
Re: Side XLRs
Since this is a small operation, I need to be able to either outsource the work, or do the work in-house using automation (i.e. using my CNC machine)
I asked a factory about this, and they won't even do it. They'd do the front and rear panel, drill the top and bottom, but not the sides. And even if they did, minimum quantity order for the job is in the hundreds of units. And that means I have to buy hundreds of units of cases. No way.
So drilling XLR holes on the sides is a manual operation. I can't CNC it. And doing it manually, I just don't have time for that. To make it worthwhile, I'd have to charge a lot of $$$ for that option.
And even then, if I can't do that job repeatedly with consistent accuracy and quality, I wouldn't do it. I may get 3 straight holes and the 4th xLR hole is crooked... and you paid extra for that? I don't think you'll be happy, and I won't be happy either with the wasted time, and ruined case. I'd rather not do it.
There are right angle XLRs that can be used for the rear panel XLRs. I think that will be a better solution.
Maybe someday when I become a big corporation, I can have cases dimensioned and designed to my specs. But not now.
-
I guess the box is too small to index and drill the holes from the inside where the surface isn't ridged?
-
No matter what the final design is, SOMEONE here won't be happy with it for some reason.
You can't please everyone though. All in all, the finished product looks to be quite nice and a number of this forum's ideas and suggestions were implemented. That's a pretty cool thing in and of itself.
-
No matter what the final design is, SOMEONE here won't be happy with it for some reason.
You can't please everyone though. All in all, the finished product looks to be quite nice and a number of this forum's ideas and suggestions were implemented. That's a pretty cool thing in and of itself.
Agreed.
My question two posts up was meant to provide an additional thought, idea or suggestion along those same lines. It certainly wasn't borne from any displeasure. I was just curious if it was possible to drill from the inside so that it could solve a potential problem, that's all.
-
There is one feature I can't foresee me ever using (phase reverse) and I would rather have one switch that controls phantom on both channels but those are just personal preferences and their inclusion may be useful to others. Those aren't deal killers to me. What I'm really waiting for are reports of how this sounds in the field. And for that I am just going to have to be patient.
Watching this project from inception to almost_ready_for_production has been one of the more interesting things I've seen on taperssection since I've been here. A basic design, incorporating suggestions, saying why something may not be feasible (cost, size limitations, etc), redoing circuitry, posting photos and keeping us updated; it's been fascinating so far but since it's still a prototype, reports of how it sounds will just have to wait a bit longer. Once reports and sound samples are available, then I'll decide whether to add another box to my equipment chain.
-
Yo O-Canis...is FF sending you a cut for being his design consultant? ;D ;D
-
Mostly everything is in the thread if you read form the very beginning. O-canis has been a valuable contributor to this thread and been a regular so he knows what went down, what got suggested, etc...
-
I just realized I haven't posted a pic of the pre with the new VU meters.... so here goes.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/2897191138_414449d591_o.jpg)
SCALE: 1:1 *almost* (at least on my 23" Apple Cinema monitor.)
Height is 2" in real life.
Width is 6-5/8" in real life.
Get a ruler and measure what you see on your screen. It should be close.
-
I'm not trying to single any one person out either - I'm just saying with the wide range of taping styles and preferences it will be next to impossible to please everyone with the final design.
Regardless of all that. we should all be very pleased at the work FiveFish has done on his new preamp and at the input he's accepted from our community (and obviously we are).
The pic above looks outstanding. :coolguy:
(can I get a purple face plate on mine?) ;D
-
Absolutely Awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:clapping:
-
Is there an estimated price range for this work of art ?
Is there a approximent build time/ wait time per unit when ready ?
Is there a waiting list to join ? ;D
Thanks - NT
-
Is there a approximent build time/ wait time per unit when ready ?
If I have units finished and available, they go on the market. It's that simple.
I will not take pre-orders or advanced build-to-order, I will not take your money and make you wait for months.
1. It's not fair to you.
2. I don't want the pressure :)
Only time I will take advanced orders and pre-payment is if there are units ready, and I'm just waiting for a part or panel to be delivered to me to go on the waiting units.
Intoductory* price is $499 - stock version, no transformer.
Future transformer version with some other goodies, and more features... add $200 or so.
* Disclaimer: The reason I put the word "introductory" above is because all my LABOR and Outsourcing costs are not fully in the price equation. But for the initial batch, $499 is the price I committed. Hopefully, I can find ways to lower my cost and keep the same price as volume increases.
-
just wondering if there is a "intro price" time frame or number of units
thanks
-
any thought of selling in kit form?
e.g. with and without components and case
?
-
just wondering if there is a "intro price" time frame or number of units
thanks
Anticipation is building!
-
Is there a approximent build time/ wait time per unit when ready ?
If I have units finished and available, they go on the market. It's that simple.
I will not take pre-orders or advanced build-to-order, I will not take your money and make you wait for months.
1. It's not fair to you.
2. I don't want the pressure :)
Only time I will take advanced orders and pre-payment is if there are units ready, and I'm just waiting for a part or panel to be delivered to me to go on the waiting units.
Intoductory* price is $499 - stock version, no transformer.
Future transformer version with some other goodies, and more features... add $200 or so.
* Disclaimer: The reason I put the word "introductory" above is because all my LABOR and Outsourcing costs are not fully in the price equation. But for the initial batch, $499 is the price I committed. Hopefully, I can find ways to lower my cost and keep the same price as volume increases.
Excellent!
-
fivefish,
If you won't accept money for pre-orders, how about establishing a wait list? When you've got a preamp built, just contact the next person on the list. That way people who have been interested from the beginning won't be left out. And potential customers won't need to check this board every 30 minutes, hoping that you have a box for sale.
Flintstone
-
flintstone... good idea. I may very well do that.
*** I'll post a special message when the waiting list will be open... so DO NOT PM/email me your name yet. ***
Ohhhhkaaaaayyy..... Wish me luck! Starting up first batch production.
Boards all laid out...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2845312896_6a273f531f.jpg)
X fingers...
-
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: Good luck with the production run.
-
Will you announce it here in this thread or in Yardsale ??
Datfly
flintstone... good idea. I may very well do that.
*** I'll post a special message when the waiting list will be open... so DO NOT PM/email me your name yet. ***
Ohhhhkaaaaayyy..... Wish me luck! Starting up first batch production.
Boards all laid out...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2845312896_6a273f531f.jpg)
X fingers...
-
Will you announce it here in this thread or in Yardsale ??
Datfly
wondering myslef
although it should go into the retail section not yard sale ;)
-
announce it on this post!!
-
Update: Finished (5) TS-2 switchboards so far. Working on it on and off during spare time. I am out of capacitors needed for the PSU, so ordered some and will be here next week.
500 qty. of switches... nice and shiny! Stacked and ready to go.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2909264232_630dd2dcd5.jpg)
ESD-safe PCB holder... work in progress
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/2908416311_39a686e0f5.jpg)
Keeping these irons hot...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2908416281_80a3e2d11a.jpg)
Awaiting new prototype panels which should be here on Monday/Tuesday... if everything looks good, I'll give the go signal to the factory to start manufacturing the panels.
Note: Announcement of ready units will be on this thread and at the Retail section... and my website, and other forums I visit. Hopefully, it will go fast. I'll need the money to fund the next bigger batch... i.e. buy parts.
-
Update: Finished (5) TS-2 switchboards so far. Working on it on and off during spare time. I am out of capacitors needed for the PSU, so ordered some and will be here next week.
Note: Announcement of ready units will be on this thread and at the Retail section... and my website, and other forums I visit. Hopefully, it will go fast. I'll need the money to fund the next bigger batch... i.e. buy parts.
Thanks for all of your hard work!! The pre is looking very nice!!
:coolguy:
-
Update:
All switchboards done. Currently doing the VU meters.
I need to construct a jig first so all LEDs will be bended uniformly. 5 leds x 16 boards = 80 LEDs to solder... then test and calibrate.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3204/2920053795_049a45afeb.jpg)
Two more prototype front panels arrived today... a couple of minor issues I'm addressing with the factory. I think I'll switch back to BLACK... it's a universal color anyway and will work with whatever color case I use.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3023/2920053731_f337c43ebc.jpg)
I may do "special edition" in other colors... like the 2 shades of blue above, or red, etc...
The laser engraved panels also arrived today... I think I will use them for the rear panel.
More packing boxes arrived... and more electronic parts due to arrive this week.
-
Everything looks absolutely amazing.
Any color you like. ;D
-
What are the overall dimensions of the preamp? Outputs on the back or sides?
Looks great!
-
About 6x6x2 inches.
2 sets of XLR Male and Female on the back.
Locking DC Switchcraft jack on the back.
-
I just realized I haven't posted a pic of the pre with the new VU meters.... so here goes.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/2897191138_414449d591_o.jpg)
SCALE: 1:1 *almost* (at least on my 23" Apple Cinema monitor.)
Height is 2" in real life.
Width is 6-5/8" in real life.
Get a ruler and measure what you see on your screen. It should be close.
Missed this pic somehow. Wow looks great! I agree I like the black faceplate.
Great Job!
-
looks like you have been working right along with the boards
i like the darker blue myself
black would be my 1st choice
red 3rd
(of the colors mentioned)
-
Got the Blue prototype panel issues resolved with the factory...
Presenting.... TS-2 Mic Preamp - True Blue Version
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2354/2925658061_788a045971_o.jpg)
-
I like the Bad-ass Black version better. Hope that will be an option!
Jeff
-
Yes, actually BLACK faceplate will be the default option.
The body case can be black, blue, red, gold (works nice with the BLACK faceplate), or black, blue, gold with the BLUE faceplate.
-
Got the Blue prototype panel issues resolved with the factory...
Presenting.... TS-2 Mic Preamp - True Blue Version
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2354/2925658061_788a045971_o.jpg)
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :wink2: :wink2: :wink2: :wink2: :wink2: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :wink2: :wink2: :wink2: :wink2: :wink2: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :
-
The black is very classy, but the blue looks great!
-
That shit is tight! Looks solid as a rock! If it sounds as good as it looks then you are in business!
-
Bump for the latest news!
-
Just busy building the boards. I have another project that is ongoing at the same time...So trying to finish the TS-2 and this other project by Thanksgiving.
Getting there... slow but surely.
It takes a lot of time to get each sub-assembly done. For a long time, nothing seems to be happening. But once all the sub-assemblies are done, it's just a matter of plugging in connectors, screwing the boards together, attaching panels, and sliding the whole thing in the case and it's finished.
Finished sub-assemblies, boards, VU meters, panels.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3154/2962930139_6fd2e85340.jpg)
I'll post a photo of one of the finished units that will be for sale.
I'll start opening the "waiting list" in the next few days.
-
I'll start opening the "waiting list" in the next few days.
and so the frenzy begins... >:D
-
I'll start opening the "waiting list" in the next few days.
and so the frenzy begins... >:D
It will be interesting to see how many people actually order one.
-
It will be interesting to see how many people actually order one.
Indeed. I hope it works out well for mr 5-fish,
...my sticking point with the unit is that it needs external power, and once I factor that additional cost of that into the equation plus the unit prices that have been suggested so far - it's going to cost the same or more than a Sound Devices MixPre (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mx2master.htm)....of which I would gladly buy another.
However I can see it will appeal to many on this forum :)
digifish
-
:alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert:
OKAY..... THE LIST IS NOW OPEN...
PM or EMAIL ME if you want to be on the list.
$499 INTRO PRICE + Shipping.
12VDC, 1.0Amp, with 2.5mm plug AC Adapter - Not Included*
*I'm still looking for an AC adapter that will work for both US and non-US customers.
:alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert:
-
When does shipping begin? Warranty terms?
-
:alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert:
OKAY..... THE LIST IS NOW OPEN...
PM or EMAIL ME if you want to be on the list.
$499 INTRO PRICE + Shipping.
12VDC, 1.0Amp, with 2.5mm plug AC Adapter - Not Included*
*I'm still looking for an AC adapter that will work for both US and non-US customers.
:alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert:
How about giving a features/spec run down. I really don't feel like reading through all these pages ;D.
-
Anyone done beta testing in the field? Has it been crotch tested?
-
:alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert:
*** WAIT LIST IS NOW CLOSED ****
*** WAIT LIST IS NOW CLOSED ****
*** WAIT LIST IS NOW CLOSED ****
I'm now starting a BACKUP LIST. Just PM or email me. (Need an email address so I can notify you.)
If someone backs out from the WAITING LIST, due to circumstances beyond their control, people from the BACKUP LIST takes their place.
Thanks for the support.
:alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert: :alert:
-
Told ya so
Yah.. :) And the part I specifically remember the most is how this is going to suck up all my time. :P
Selling kits are way way more attractive for me than spending nights soldering and building finished units. I'm looking at ways to further reduce assembly time. (Eliminating wiring is on the top of my list.)
. . . what's the deal with 1A? I thought you were at 170mA? Wouldn't 300mA do?
Price difference in AC adapters are not much and this seems to be the most common model out there.
-
:
12VDC, 1.0Amp, with 2.5mm plug AC Adapter - Not Included*
*I'm still looking for an AC adapter that will work for both US and non-US customers.
Didn't I read somewhere along the line that this pre will run off of a variety of DC power supplies, including the 9v Lion DVD batteries? Or will it require a 12v SLA or Tekkeon power pack? I want to get my name on the waiting list, but first want to understand what it will take to power this beauty in the field (for a whole day of festival taping).
-
Yes. I've tested it personally with the Tekkeon battery. Dialing the Tekkeon voltage selector, 6V to 12V works. Though at the lower DC voltages, the pre may not reach the full 48V output for phantom power. (I don't think the 48P is an issue though, cause most condenser mics will work even down to 18V or 12V phantom power).
Battery life depends on the mAh of your battery, and whether VU meters are ON or OFF, whether you're using 48V phantom power or not. I wrote down on the board what I got for battery life... will need to look it up.
-
Or will it require a 12v SLA or Tekkeon power pack?
there are also several options for 12v battery power without going to SLA or the Tekkeon power pack. I personally have a 12V NiMH rechargeable that I currently use with ym HD-P2. If I choose to try out this pre-amp, I'd probably use something similar. (something like this: http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2387 (http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2387)... just hack off the end of the cable and solder on whatever is appropriate... just an example, there are many out there.)
-
Though at the lower DC voltages, the pre may not reach the full 48V output for phantom power. (I don't think the 48P is an issue though, cause most condenser mics will work even down to 18V or 12V phantom power).
Some mics have problems with less than 48v. Schoeps cmc6 bodies can operate on 48v or 12v. But voltages 'in between' are not supported.
It'd be interesting to see a curve of input voltage vs. phantom voltage (under load).
-
O-canis, I just reconfirmed... a 9VDC input to the preamp will still give you 48V phantom power.
12V --> 48VPP
9V --> 48VPP
8V --> 48VPP
7V --> 48VPP
6V --> 45VPP
-
i vaguely remember way back in one of these threads that this unit had really impressive power stats, like less than 500mA at 9V.
did something change? whats the power consumption sans phantom?
-
Looking forward to the new TS-2...
+T for your efforts and craftsmanship!!
:)
-
If I remember right, 2 channels with PP ON, using 2 condenser mics (CAD model, 8ma each), all VU meters lit up, the power consumption was 3Watts @ 12VDC.... so that's 250mA.
From there, it goes down to 1.5W if PP is OFF and VU meters are also OFF.
So at 9Volts, doing the math will be 3w/9V = 333mA (or 166mA if PP is OFF and VU meters off)
Will try to get actual readings for 9V one of these days.
-
hey fivefish
just wondering what type of connector you put on your preamp for dc power.
thanks
ed
-
hey fivefish
just wondering what type of connector you put on your preamp for dc power.
thanks
ed
This one...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2932848301_f5ae0d9c71.jpg)
Switchcraft DC locking jack
-
If I remember right, 2 channels with PP ON, using 2 condenser mics (CAD model, 8ma each), all VU meters lit up, the power consumption was 3Watts @ 12VDC.... so that's 250mA.
From there, it goes down to 1.5W if PP is OFF and VU meters are also OFF.
So at 9Volts, doing the math will be 3w/9V = 333mA (or 166mA if PP is OFF and VU meters off)
Will try to get actual readings for 9V one of these days.
Forgive me if I've got the math all wrong here, but my 9v DVD battery says its capacity is 5400 mAh, so 5400/333 = about 16 hours of run time. Is that correct? I'm an idiot when it comes to electricity math... ???
-
I think that's about right.
Turn off the VU meters to squeeze more life out of the battery. If you're using dynamic mics, then you can turn off Phantom power too... so that will give about 32hrs.
-
16 hours of run time, with phantom power and VU meters on, is pretty substantial. I'd run out of juice before the pre did at that rate. Wish my other gear was that efficient.
-
my bad, i see your 12V/1A specs are for the wallwart, not the unit itself
If I remember right, 2 channels with PP ON, using 2 condenser mics (CAD model, 8ma each), all VU meters lit up, the power consumption was 3Watts @ 12VDC.... so that's 250mA.
From there, it goes down to 1.5W if PP is OFF and VU meters are also OFF.
So at 9Volts, doing the math will be 3w/9V = 333mA (or 166mA if PP is OFF and VU meters off)
Will try to get actual readings for 9V one of these days.
-
No problem.
The difference in price between a 500mA, 1Amp and 1.5Amp wall wart are just a few cents. It's better for the wallwart to be over-spec than the power requirements of the load.
-
Any further thoughts on whether you'll make this available in kit form?
-
Seriously thinking about it... anything that will save me from doing the work :)
But the thought of handholding and supporting users who may botched the assembly (cold solder, wrong component soldered) and the big number of parts to pack is holding me back.
To be honest, IF... big IF... I offer a kit, the price difference/savings wouldn't be huge... because labor costs only got switched from assembly to packing/organizing and support.
-
i personally couldn't do a kit myself and i would be questioning the skills of others if i was to see one for resale
in the back of my mind i would wonder if it was a kit and if it was put together 100%
on the flip side i can totally see it being a good and fun thing to do for those that know how
-
I'd love to see this pre-amp in kit form.
I like the idea of knowing each and every part of the circuit and knowing that I put it together.
-
Serial#s won't be etched on the case. There is space on the PCB for me to write it down. Why? Is it important? Maybe I'll just sign and autograph it, HAHAHHAH..
Maybe it will become collector's item in the future, HAHAHA :) At the way things are progressing, it's possible to become collectors item. Me personally building units is not something I'd like to do long term. I can't wait to get the 1st batch done and move on to something else.
Honestly, I'm finding that I am NOT enjoying manufacturing these units.... regardless of the price tag. It's a lot of work. I like doing prototypes, planning, R&D and testing a new design, but not the work of mass producing.
I looked at third party companies doing the builds for me, but the high asking price of US manufacturers, the low volume numbers I'm looking, and my low asking/selling price will leave me no profit... everything will just go into paying the factory that will build it. Or I can build it myself, not pay anybody, but that sucks away my time and energy. I don't know what to do. Maybe outsource labor to China.... or increase the selling price.
Ignore me...I'm just whining and thinking out aloud here. Lots of stuff going at work and personal life. I am tired. :P
So yes, offering these as kits are becoming very attractive day by day.
-
Honestly, I'm finding that I am NOT enjoying manufacturing these units.... regardless of the price tag. It's a lot of work. I like doing prototypes, planning, R&D and testing a new design, but not the work of mass producing.
I understand where you are coming from. I have thought about doing similar things and have decided I would rather be in the audio business than the manufacturing business. If I purchased an item like this from you, I would be happy with a PC board, or even just the artwork for a PC board, a case and faceplate, a schematic, an operating manual, assembly instructions, and a parts list which I could have filled at Mouser. It would shift the burden of rounding up the parts and possibly making the PC board from you to the user.
-
Serial#s won't be etched on the case. There is space on the PCB for me to write it down. Why? Is it important? Maybe I'll just sign and autograph it, HAHAHHAH..
Maybe it will become collector's item in the future, HAHAHA :) At the way things are progressing, it's possible to become collectors item. Me personally building units is not something I'd like to do long term. I can't wait to get the 1st batch done and move on to something else.
Honestly, I'm finding that I am NOT enjoying manufacturing these units.... regardless of the price tag. It's a lot of work. I like doing prototypes, planning, R&D and testing a new design, but not the work of mass producing.
I looked at third party companies doing the builds for me, but the high asking price of US manufacturers, the low volume numbers I'm looking, and my low asking/selling price will leave me no profit... everything will just go into paying the factory that will build it. Or I can build it myself, not pay anybody, but that sucks away my time and energy. I don't know what to do. Maybe outsource labor to China.... or increase the selling price.
Ignore me...I'm just whining and thinking out aloud here. Lots of stuff going at work and personal life. I am tired. :P
So yes, offering these as kits are becoming very attractive day by day.
One reason to add a serial number or other marking would be to mark units you have put together vs. DIY projects, if you do sell some as DIY.
A unit that you put together and tested would be preferable to some buyers vs a unit someone else put together and re-sold. There's no real quailty control for the DIY units.
-
Serial#s won't be etched on the case. There is space on the PCB for me to write it down. Why? Is it important? Maybe I'll just sign and autograph it, HAHAHHAH..
Most products get revised at some point, especially after field testing. Components also change due to supplier issues, etc. Maybe something as minor as a change in the solder or the type of wire.. Serial numbers allow version tracking. Even just knowing whether it is an early or late unit.
At the way things are progressing, it's possible to become collectors item. Me personally building units is not something I'd like to do long term. I can't wait to get the 1st batch done and move on to something else.
Honestly, I'm finding that I am NOT enjoying manufacturing these units.... regardless of the price tag. It's a lot of work. I like doing prototypes, planning, R&D and testing a new design, but not the work of mass producing.
Not surprising. R&D is fun. It is easy to be in the mood for that.. But long-term customer support, man, that's tough... A lot of folks think "actives" are easy to do. And in some ways they are. But the customer support is a bear. That's why I have a lot of respect for folks like Nick and how he stands behind the nbox and is there for his customers. Same for Chris Church, except he has even more products and customers to support. Being there for your customers, sustainably, is hard. Especially when you mostly do it alone and don't have someone to punt to when you need a break.
And just think, you don't even have customers dogging you for support yet. Just imagine when you decide to disappear for a few days of vacation and people are posting messages asking 'hey, where's fivefish, I've been emailing him and can't get in touch. Has anyone heard from him? Did he disappear? I really need this connector fixed before my show!! I'll be so pissed if I can't get this fixed before the show!! If you're going to sell a product you have got to be around to support it!! This sucks!!'
I looked at third party companies doing the builds for me, but the high asking price of US manufacturers, the low volume numbers I'm looking, and my low asking/selling price will leave me no profit... everything will just go into paying the factory that will build it. Or I can build it myself, not pay anybody, but that sucks away my time and energy. I don't know what to do. Maybe outsource labor to China.... or increase the selling price.
Slime Devices hand soldered the first 50 or 60 slimp3's (the original squeezebox, I still have mine). There were some good pics up on their website but unfortunately they're now restricted. After that they had the boards wave soldered.
With a product like this you really really need to guard against burn-out because it is probably more of a When not If. Soldering the boards is one area where you can offload a lot of drudgery and save time and energy for the important stuff. I wish you the best of luck.
-
Thanks for the comments.
mshilarious: I'm already working on a new board design with SMT parts, bigger board to PCB mount the XLRs, and basically anything to save time and labor. And yes, I find SMT labor costs are cheaper than TH labor costs.
freelunch: I'll keep a list, good idea.
And just think, you don't even have customers dogging you for support yet.
Not true. I've been in the kit business for 1-1/2 years now, sold A LOT of kits and supported several hundred customers via my forum and email. So it's not like I'm new to the game. And I think kits are even more harder to support, asnswering build questions, customer problems, troubleshooting via email, etc...
Re: TS-2
My original plan is to hand solder the first few units, and take notes of where the major inefficiencies are in the assembly. Little things like connection wires and flying leads that is not an issue doing one unit, becomes major and takes a lot of time when doing several units.
So one of the major changes I'll be doing is using PCB mounted XLRs in the future, and finding a pin & socket solution to mate the switchboard with the mainboard. My distributor representative dropped off personally at my house some catalogs to look at.
Soldering the parts is not the hard/time consuming part for me.
It's stripping wires and putting them in each hole that slows me down and is a pain. (And I'm already using Thermal wire strippers, which already saves me a lot of work.) If I can reduce or eliminate this wiring part, I'm going to be better.
-
It's stripping wires and putting them in each hole that slows me down and is a pain. (And I'm already using Thermal wire strippers, which already saves me a lot of work.) If I can reduce or eliminate this wiring part, I'm going to be better.
QFFT!
-
Bump for an update! ;D
-
Do you use a solder pot for tinning the leads? I've never used one but it seems like it would help..
-
Hello FiveFish,
Just checking in for an update and to see if you're "snowed under" with other projects besides the TS-2 Preamp.
Thanks! :)
-
A bit... just launched a new product, and finishing some deadlines at work. On the TS-2, all electronics are done, just need to do some mechanical on the rear panel. Thanks.
-
A bit... just launched a new product, and finishing some deadlines at work. On the TS-2, all electronics are done, just need to do some mechanical on the rear panel. Thanks.
Thank you sir!! Looking forward to the finished product when you can squeeze us in!
;D
-
cant wait to hear the reveiws! should be great. ed
-
Sorry for the delays on the TS-2. I'm 95% there, just need to get off my lazy butt to do the CNC for the panel...
But first, I had to get my new kit (pictured below) up and running and generating some (+) cash flow.
Shameless promotion follows: ;D
(http://www.fivefish.net/diy/sc1/images/SC-1mk2.jpg)
-
Yes, looks great.
But why isn't there a headphone jack on the preamp?
-
^^ :) Can't please everyone.
Think about it. How many stand-alone preamps out there integrate a headphone amp? Not many that I know of.
Having said that, headphone function is often on the recorder end of the chain...or in the all-in-ones.
-
^^ :) Can't please everyone.
Think about it. How many stand-alone preamps out there integrate a headphone amp? Not many that I know of.
Having said that, headphone function is often on the recorder end of the chain...or in the all-in-ones.
And most of the time you can't hear them anyway over the music.
-
Why would you have to use headphones in the field? The only occasion I could see a need for this is doing on the fly M/S decoding (which IMO is a bad decision in the first place with today's fast computers).
I have been taping for over 7 years and have never used them! If you don't know how to make good recordings by using the level indicators on your equipment then IMO you should find another hobby!
-
Why would you have to use headphones in the field?
Well, honestly, if you can isolate the sound downstream of the preamps in a REALLY loud show, it can be a little bit nice to be able to hear what's being laid down on tape to confirm that nothing is being overloaded, such that if you have a choice you could dial in a pad or something.
One of the nice features of the SD-7XX series recorders is that the headphone amp is pretty decent and provides a nice volume level AND you can choose where in the chain you're monitoring the sound...such as from the mics or from the preamps. Another nifty feature of the SD product is that you can delay the sound to the phones by a bit so that you can differentiate the sound that's headphone sound from the actual show.
Again, though this is a headphone connection on the all-in-one recorder and I'd say that the major use of this is simply playback monitoring, rather than field monitoring.
-
^^ :) Can't please everyone.
Think about it. How many stand-alone preamps out there integrate a headphone amp? Not many that I know of.
Having said that, headphone function is often on the recorder end of the chain...or in the all-in-ones.
Sound Devices MixPre is one...and the other Sound Devices preamps in the series...
-
Why would you have to use headphones in the field? The only occasion I could see a need for this is doing on the fly M/S decoding (which IMO is a bad decision in the first place with today's fast computers).
I have been taping for over 7 years and have never used them! If you don't know how to make good recordings by using the level indicators on your equipment then IMO you should find another hobby!
Microphone positioning, checking for noises/distractions that you can't hear with your own ears (not all music recording is loud)..
digifish
-
FWIW - The Pre-Amp "Card" depected above is just a pre-amp. You could build yourself your own Headphone amp connected to the output of this card if you wanted.
Again I would never do so, but it could be done.
Microphone positioning, checking for noises/distractions that you can't hear with your own ears (not all music recording is loud)..
I don't think what you hear in the headphones prior to the band playing should make much of a difference on mic positioning (esp if you run DIN/DINa/ORTF/NOS - or "point them just outside the stacks") Also from my experience 99% of noise/distractions are completely variable with time of the show (i.e. temperature, humidity, the annoying loud mouth beside you that you ask to move or moves with the crowd, etc)
I am in the belief that you "set it and forget it!!!" work it out in post or find another source if the FU outside your domain is that bad. And if you are the only source and it is that bad (i.e. old DAT DO or something) then... shit happens!
-
I am in the belief that you "set it and forget it!!!" work it out in post or find another source if the FU outside your domain is that bad. And if you are the only source and it is that bad (i.e. old DAT DO or something) then... shit happens!
I have to agree. I don't really consider a headphone amp to be integral to the recording experience. In those instances when I had access to it and I could hear the headphones during the show, it was kinda fun to check the headphone sound now and then just to hear what you're getting.
-
I have been taping for over 7 years and have never used them! If you don't know how to make good recordings by using the level indicators on your equipment then IMO you should find another hobby!
-
I don't really see a need for a phones jack on a mic preamp, but I do find it valuable to monitor from the recorder for some situations though certainly not all of them or every time. Getting things just right is more than just monitoring levels on a VU or peak meter. I've used highly isolating in-ear monitors to tweak critically spaced omni spread and height and small changes in both dimensions were quite audible in the field. I probably would have been happy with the recordings without doing so, but sometimes it's that 9th 10th that really nails it. I learned a lot by doing that, basically reducing the record > take it home & listen > record with a slight change feedback loop to an instantaneous, though less precise reiteration.
I don't do that regularly nearly as often as I used to now that I'm more familiar with what to expect from various changes and obviously sometimes it's not practical given the situation. As amateur live recordists we often find setups that work consistently, sound good and aren't too much of a hassle to set-up given the considerable constraints under which we do our thing. But monitoring can be a very valuable tool to check what the mics hear. Can you imagine a professional recordist making a purist stereo recording without monitoring the recording to tweak the mic setup? It's very challenging to get everything sounding just right even with monitors set up in an isolated remote room.
-
A headphone circuit and jack would be a nice option. You would need to have a switch to turn it off to save power. Maybe it could be a piggyback circuit board and users could add it as an extra. Save $$ for the ones who don't.
In situations where you can control the mic placement and have a quiet enough environment to listen it would be very useful. Also, I think people recording wildlife could use a battery powered mic pre with a headphone option.
-
I'm not convinced that a head phone amp needs to be built into the pre-amp. I use the headphone jack out of my recorder. When I have the space, I use a small portable headphone amp.
But, I do feel strongly about taking and using headphones to any recording session.
Would you take pictures without looking through the view finder?
At the very least I check to make sure I'm getting a clean signal to the recorder by listening through headphones after getting set up.
-
Would you take pictures without looking through the view finder?
Yes.
-
Would you take pictures without looking through the view finder?
Yes.
Yeah, actually me too, but I do like to assure myself when recording, that I am getting a good clean signal.'
YMMV...
-
Would you take pictures without looking through the view finder?
Yes.
All the time?
Like monitoring an audio recording, the viewfinder or LCD display is a useful tool that you can choose to use or not depending on the situation.
[edit- some of my best shots are from the hip, others are all about perfect framing]
-
Sorry to Hijack the thread on a head phone amp. ;D
-
With condenser mics drawing phantom power and a headphone amp drawing current, how long do you expect the batteries to last?
-
Have any been finished and sent out yet ? Just curious for a field report ...
-
That's the voice of experience talking. ;)
-
hey fivefish
just wondering what type of connector you put on your preamp for dc power.
thanks
ed
This one...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2932848301_f5ae0d9c71.jpg)
Switchcraft DC locking jack
'Don't know why I just thought of this, but for powering the TS-2 will we be able to easily find the mate to this jack at our local RatShacks? My guess is no and that would require us to track down a $2 item on line and often times that's hard depending on who sells them, minimum orders and all. Any chance the male counterpart could be made part of the rig? Thanks
... Oh, and I'm saving my money to by this instead of getting Christmas gifts for my family... if it's available before then. ;)
i will be making power cables for the ts-2, i have the specs and proper connectors on order.
-
Got the Blue prototype panel issues resolved with the factory...
Presenting.... TS-2 Mic Preamp - True Blue Version
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2354/2925658061_788a045971_o.jpg)
Just checking in and wishing for a "True Blue" Xmas...
:headphones:
-
I'm in the market for a preamp and I really wish that the TS-2 was a viable option, but don't really want to do the Aerco-wait-without-a-reliable-delivery-date-in-sight-thing all over again, since I didn't get into the initial order queue.
I realize that it takes time to get units manufactured and in peoples hands and I also realize that FFDIY isn't doing this for a living, but the manner in which the air seems to have gone out of this project is kinda disappointing...or maybe it's just me.
-
Has anyone heard from FiveFish recently? It looks like that he was last on TS on December 3rd. Just checking to see if anyone has an update report from Mr. Five. He is probably still busy with his other project(s).
::)
-
Hopefully he's busy with the critical field testing phase of the project ;)
-
Even super heroes get the flu it seems. Hope he can shake it before the Holiday.
I heard back from fivefish - after he fully recovers from the flu he said that he hopes to complete work on the first run of TS-2's during the Xmas break. He said that all of the board work was complete, it sounds like the CNC work on the rear panels is all that remains to be done...
:) :) :)
-
He'd be crazy not to make sure at least one went to Hampton for these Phish shows...that would be a heap of free publicity IMO - given all source comparisons that go on. It will be even more than the Zep reunion...
-
Im talking more about promotion - not so much comparison...
An early Phish torrent will get A LOT of downloads...thats a lot of ears...
At this point this thing just needs to prove itself in the field - comparisons will come later...
-
At this point this thing just needs to prove itself in the field - comparisons will come later...
Agreed. I'm a 'form follows function' type, so I say let the duct tape fly and get some folks testing it.
-
One of ya'll start a new thread