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Author Topic: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions  (Read 11444 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2016, 10:44:31 AM »
As those Beyerdynamic cardioids have not been around for long and users here aren't familiar with them, we don't really know yet how low the bass response of the microphones goes with a relatively flat response before beginning to roll off.  All cardioids roll-off at some point, only pressure-omnis are flat down to the very lowest frequencies, so these new Beyer cardioids will definitely pickup less really-low bass than your omnis, and are likely to also pickup less of the very bottom of the music you are recording, which is typically somewhat higher in frequency than that really-low extended omni response. The bottom of that actual bass response of the music in the venue is higher in frequency than the start of the effective roll off of some cardioids- typically higher-cost phantom-powered mics- but lower than the inherent roll-off of many miniature cardioids.  You'll need to make some test recordings to determine if the inherent cardioid bass roll off of the Beyers is sufficient on it's own to bring the lows into proper balance when recording in a situation with "too much bass".   If it is then great, you don't need to correct the bass response further. 

If there is still too much bass, you can either record at a low enough level to not overload while recording, then adjust the bass afterwards using EQ on the computer, raising the overall level of the music after doing that to something reasonable.  That's the most accurate and best sounding way to do it, and why Acidjack and myself recommend doing it that way.  The other option is to use the bass rolloff on the preamp to do something similar.  That's less ideal because you have no control over the shape and placement of the bass reduction EQ curve, but doing it that way may eliminate the need to do the EQ manipulation later on the computer.  Depends on how particular you are about getting the music sounding it's best verses the effort involved.  If minimal effort without making EQ adjustments later is more important to you, hopefully one of the variable bass roll-off options on the preamp will be acceptable enough.  If going that route, make test recordings with the bass roll-off switch on the preamp in each position, starting with no roll-off at all, and choose the one which sounds best.  That should be the roll-off switch position which reduces the low bass just enough- any more will begin to sound thin, weak and powerless- not very appropriate to the musical style.

Keep in mind that "boominess" is often higher in frequency than the very lowest musical parts, so bass roll-off is not a very good tool for dealing with that in a full stereo mix or audience recording.  A very high bass roll-off will cut the boominess, but also all the bass and kick below that range.  That's why EQ is preferable to a low-cut filter (bass roll-off is a low-cut filter).  We can dial in an EQ curve which reduces a problematic "boom" region more than the bass below that region, yet still reduces all the bass range somewhat compared to the frequencies above that, instead of hacking off everything off completely below a certain frequency range.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 10:58:02 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline j4g3rb0mb3d

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2016, 05:20:14 PM »
My new  >:D Rig:
Sony PCM-M10 + SP-SPSB-4 microphone plug-in power supply +  SP-CMC8 with Low Sens mod mounted on croakies

(pillowman: Ran the last Evi Vine shows with that rig great result even without EQ. for the Acoustic Sixtina Recording i went into mic in instead of line in)

Can you snap a picture of this on its side? I'm quite curious to see how much wider the box is than the M10.

I almost bought the SP-SPSB-4.

Offline j4g3rb0mb3d

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2016, 05:23:54 PM »
As those Beyerdynamic cardioids have not been around for long and users here aren't familiar with them, we don't really know yet how low the bass response of the microphones goes with a relatively flat response before beginning to roll off.  All cardioids roll-off at some point, only pressure-omnis are flat down to the very lowest frequencies, so these new Beyer cardioids will definitely pickup less really-low bass than your omnis, and are likely to also pickup less of the very bottom of the music you are recording, which is typically somewhat higher in frequency than that really-low extended omni response. The bottom of that actual bass response of the music in the venue is higher in frequency than the start of the effective roll off of some cardioids- typically higher-cost phantom-powered mics- but lower than the inherent roll-off of many miniature cardioids.  You'll need to make some test recordings to determine if the inherent cardioid bass roll off of the Beyers is sufficient on it's own to bring the lows into proper balance when recording in a situation with "too much bass".   If it is then great, you don't need to correct the bass response further. 

If there is still too much bass, you can either record at a low enough level to not overload while recording, then adjust the bass afterwards using EQ on the computer, raising the overall level of the music after doing that to something reasonable.  That's the most accurate and best sounding way to do it, and why Acidjack and myself recommend doing it that way.  The other option is to use the bass rolloff on the preamp to do something similar.  That's less ideal because you have no control over the shape and placement of the bass reduction EQ curve, but doing it that way may eliminate the need to do the EQ manipulation later on the computer.  Depends on how particular you are about getting the music sounding it's best verses the effort involved.  If minimal effort without making EQ adjustments later is more important to you, hopefully one of the variable bass roll-off options on the preamp will be acceptable enough.  If going that route, make test recordings with the bass roll-off switch on the preamp in each position, starting with no roll-off at all, and choose the one which sounds best.  That should be the roll-off switch position which reduces the low bass just enough- any more will begin to sound thin, weak and powerless- not very appropriate to the musical style.

Keep in mind that "boominess" is often higher in frequency than the very lowest musical parts, so bass roll-off is not a very good tool for dealing with that in a full stereo mix or audience recording.  A very high bass roll-off will cut the boominess, but also all the bass and kick below that range.  That's why EQ is preferable to a low-cut filter (bass roll-off is a low-cut filter).  We can dial in an EQ curve which reduces a problematic "boom" region more than the bass below that region, yet still reduces all the bass range somewhat compared to the frequencies above that, instead of hacking off everything off completely below a certain frequency range.

Awesome information here, thank you for posting this.

Offline j4g3rb0mb3d

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2016, 05:01:50 PM »
Alrighty everyone, got my first gig taped since purchasing the new equipment:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176007.0
AND
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176006.0

I'd love any and all feedback! Thanks!

Offline down2earthlandscaper

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2016, 02:46:18 AM »
I use a battery box only, I have an old soundprofessionals 9v (model 3) that's a great unit. I bought a "church ugly" box, but haven't needed to use it since the SP box is so solid.

I have never needed a preamp and I record some soft sounding classical type stuff, too. I use a sony d50. I use mic in all the time, including for the Melvins and other really loud shows. So, I set my recorder volume at 2 or 3 for those shows and keep the mic attenuation switch on the side of the d50 at -20 db. I like to keep all my standard settings the same, instead of messing around with anything else other than the recorder volume. Keeps it simple, I guess. It's been working pretty good, I haven't had any shows to speak of that I recorded with distortion in a LONG time, but have recorded a few at too low a setting once in a while....

a couple more reccos from my side are 

record some shows you don't care about for a while, go to a lot of local shows or whatever to see how you're doing before you go see one that you really want to get correct. So, get the bugs worked out on a couple of crap shows first.

record at 24 bit

save your raw recordings so if you mess up the processing, you can go back and start over

please post what you get on line and there will always be someone here who will be willing to critique it.

PM me if you want to part with your CA UBB  ;D
Mics: CA-14(cards & omnis) and CA-11(cards & omnis) ; AT853's(cards, hypers, mini shotguns); Busman BSC-1 (cards, hypers, omnis)
Nakamichi CM300's (CP-1,2,3,4) Nakamichi CM700's (cards, omnis)
Tascam PE-120's (cards, omnis) Countryman B2D
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Offline EWizard

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2016, 10:14:18 AM »
Alrighty everyone, got my first gig taped since purchasing the new equipment:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176007.0
AND
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176006.0

I'd love any and all feedback! Thanks!

Are you happy with the setup?
And, how do you get the setlist if you're unfamiliar with the band?

ilduclo

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2016, 10:35:19 AM »
I think they sound pretty good, I listened to a couple tracks off of each set. Suggestion,  get closer to the stacks, which could help with loud audience. To my ears it sounded balanced but a little thin. Boost midrange?

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2016, 12:32:14 PM »
I think they sound pretty good, I listened to a couple tracks off of each set. Suggestion,  get closer to the stacks, which could help with loud audience. To my ears it sounded balanced but a little thin. Boost midrange?

I'll go with "clear but a little thin" as well, which is partly the cardioid mics but only partly. Where were you set up for these in what kind of room, and how were the mics positioned?

Offline j4g3rb0mb3d

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2016, 01:03:23 PM »
Reggie's only has a capacity of 111 people. It's a very small venue. I was up in the balcony, mic's pointed at the stack, and the mic's were clipped to the rail of the balcony all night. They were spaced out approximately a foot apart.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 01:08:35 PM by j4g3rb0mb3d »

ilduclo

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2016, 01:34:59 PM »
looks like a nice venue!

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2016, 04:11:21 PM »
Reggie's only has a capacity of 111 people. It's a very small venue. I was up in the balcony, mic's pointed at the stack, and the mic's were clipped to the rail of the balcony all night. They were spaced out approximately a foot apart.

That may be part of the thinness: If a lot of the guitar and bass sound was coming direct from the amps instead of from the stack, you'd expect it to be lower in the mix.

Offline j4g3rb0mb3d

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Re: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2016, 04:56:26 PM »
looks like a nice venue!

Reggie's is my favorite place to catch a show. It's a very intimate experience, and you're always close up to the stage if you want to be. I've seen plenty of bands there, like Devin Townsend, Havok, Death Angel, 3 Inches of Blood, the list goes on and on. Ear plugs are a must there.

 

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