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Author Topic: Portable Larvy AD10?  (Read 24280 times)

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Offline mblindsey

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Portable Larvy AD10?
« on: March 18, 2008, 04:51:33 PM »
The latest TapeOP magazine has a “Behind The Gear” article on Dan Lavry and the AD10 A/D converter.  It caught my eye because it has ability to color sound from “clear” to “tube”, “transformer”, or “complex” (both).  That sounded like something I’d like to have in my arsenal (not to mention the creator's resume seemed impressive).  So, I promptly went to the company website to check this thing out, only to find out that it runs on AC.

I decided to email the company to see if they might ever release this item in something that was more friendly for recording in the field, and possibly with pres built in.  Dan Lavry emailed back and said he would consider it.  At his direction, I’m posting here, as he wishes to “post some comments regarding some of the issues and compromises that take place when designing portable gear.”   

Dan, the stage is all yours.

Mods, I apologize if this discussion is more suited for the “retail” section.  Since, the product I inquired about doesn’t actually exist, and I have no relation to the vendor, I thought posting here would be okay.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 05:05:28 PM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
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Offline muj

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2008, 03:55:21 AM »
remember apogee ad-1000? Dan was involved designing that thing

Offline BC

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2008, 03:26:13 PM »
This was also reviewed in Pro Audio Review recently. I recall the reviewer was not so hot on the processed modes, FWIW. But he really liked the AD10 overall.

I was looking but I don't think they have put up the review on their website yet. Subscriptions are free so maybe if you register you can search through the old digital issues?

http://www.proaudioreview.com/
In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

Offline BC

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2008, 03:31:17 PM »

I decided to email the company to see if they might ever release this item in something that was more friendly for recording in the field, and possibly with pres built in.  Dan Lavry emailed back and said he would consider it.  At his direction, I’m posting here, as he wishes to “post some comments regarding some of the issues and compromises that take place when designing portable gear.”   


I'll put in my 2 cents (not in any particular order)

1) Form factor. I personally think the V3/AD2K type boxes are well sized.
2) large easy-to-adjust controls (a la V3)
3) Metering that goes down to -30dB or so, with functional increments.
4) Switchable -15db pad would be nice for taking SBD feeds.
5) HPF possibly, for super bassy shows, wind and LF rumble
In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 03:38:27 PM »
The latest TapeOP magazine has a “Behind The Gear” article on Dan Lavry and the AD10 A/D converter.  It caught my eye because it has ability to color sound from “clear” to “tube”, “transformer”, or “complex” (both).  That sounded like something I’d like to have in my arsenal (not to mention the creator's resume seemed impressive).  So, I promptly went to the company website to check this thing out, only to find out that it runs on AC.

I decided to email the company to see if they might ever release this item in something that was more friendly for recording in the field, and possibly with pres built in.  Dan Lavry emailed back and said he would consider it.  At his direction, I’m posting here, as he wishes to “post some comments regarding some of the issues and compromises that take place when designing portable gear.”   

Dan, the stage is all yours.

Mods, I apologize if this discussion is more suited for the “retail” section.  Since, the product I inquired about doesn’t actually exist, and I have no relation to the vendor, I thought posting here would be okay.


Hi Michael and all,

Michael Lindsey wanted to know if the LavryBlack AD converter “AD10 will ever be released as a unit that can be used in the field on battery power”. The other question was about including a built in microphone amplifier (micpre) with the capability of supplying phantom power for condenser mics.

A as a designer, I am aware of the commonly encountered tradeoffs associated with battery powered gear. As a rule, when designing equipment to be powered by AC line energy, a few more watts is not much of an issue. The limiting factor for power level is most often heat, but given large enough physical size, one can get top notch performance without overheating. The AD10 is ½ rack wide, and  it runs relatively cool.

But designing portable battery operated equipment calls for a serious focus regarding the usage of power. The power consideration gets magnified when small size is desirable, because a while given amount of power may not heat up a large chassis, the same amount of power can cause very high temperatures in a small case. In addition, when using battery operated gear, some of the space is reserved for the battery itself, leaving less space for the electronics.

It is not wise to lump all battery operated gear together. Laptop technology is pretty impressive, enabling a few hours of operation at power levels of tenth of watts. Achieving such high performance is a result of much technological evolution for a true mass production product line. Progress in battery technology is still being made, to provide more power for longer operation. But the focus of such progress is towards mass production laptops, hybrid cars and alike.

High end portable audio recording is not a mass production market. Most often, the designs relay less on increasing battery capability, and more on reducing the power required to operate the gear. There is a whole “family” of semiconductors designed specifically for low power applications, for portable equipment. In most cases, such portable components are made to work at very low voltages (such as single 3V-5V range) and draw as little power as possible. Such devices is what makes the major portion of portable recording gear. Much of the portable recording market is driven by mass production low cost device, where performance is not the driving consideration. 

For those interested in technology, digital has been going to lower and lower voltages (the currents are still high for high performance) and that is the best path for digital. But analog for audio is “being dragged down” by the mass production computer, cell phone and similar technology. Lower voltage and high performance audio are opposite… 

When using circuits and devices with low power and low voltage, one compromises performance. Say my goal is to have 120dB dynamic range, with a 3V supply. The electron motion inside a single 3.5KOhm resistor at room temperature generates noise at 120dB below a 3V signal…  While some of the technological limitations may be temporary, there are a number of fundamental physical principles at play, that are here to stay. That is why the highest end gear ends up using higher power (higher voltage and higher currents).

When it comes to low power operation, the big question is the level of compromise in performance vs. the amount of power. In most cases, small, light, long battery life (or time between charges) and product price seems to outweigh the quality and performance.
Portability and low power and not exactly the same thing. One can “settle for” a heavier, bigger device (with a battery) that performs much better.

Clearly, I can make a version of the AD10 that is more portable. I can go for a different, less power consuming display and do what can be done to reduce power, which was not much of a consideration fro the present AD10. But at some point, one faces the decision of performance and quality vs. portability. Say you want 48V phantom stereo power. There goes a watt… Much portable gear offers lower phantom voltage, say 12V or even less. That is an example of compromise. Then come the monitoring question. Do you want to be able to listen to the OUTPUT through your choice of quality headphones? That would call for a quality DA plus heavy duty headphone driver – more power…

My very new AD10 is gaining much respect at music production facilities, a market that I am familiar with. At this point, I do not know how much need there is for the performance level of my products in the portable market. Clearly I am not going to recommend that people carry a 12V car battery with 115V 60Hz inverter to the field. I can alter the product to yield similar performance with increased portability. I can not make an AD10 fit in a pocket, but I can make it portable enough. I just do not know how many people with portable recording applications have a requirement for the highest sound quality.

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com







 



Offline carlbeck

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 04:42:54 PM »
Dan thank you for your insight & for joining our forum, we appreciate your time here. With that being said you don't necessarily need to provide on-board battery power. We are a crafty bunch, if you can make it powered by 12 volts drawing an amp or two per hour we will figure out how to power it. In our circles, if you make it they will come. We take great pride in what we do & go through great lengths to support a company that we feels supports us. Our market may be small but some of us are fiercely loyal to those who feel have our interests in mind.

I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
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Offline mblindsey

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2008, 12:04:36 AM »
I can not make an AD10 fit in a pocket, but I can make it portable enough. I just do not know how many people with portable recording applications have a requirement for the highest sound quality.


The short answer is that most of us here strive for the highest sound quality.  It's not easy to make high quality recordings in a hostile environment that one often has very little control over.  However, that is a small part of what makes this hobby fun.  The gear we use is one of the variables that we have complete control over.

Let me further answer that with a very short list examples of manufacturer's that people have been known to use around here:

Mics:  Schoeps, Nuemann, DPA, AKG, MBHO, Microtech Gefell, etc

Pres/AD's/Both & More:  Neve Portico, Apogee, Grace Designs, Sound Devices, Sonosax, etc

I purposely picked those because they are on the more expensive side (and I know I've left some off in my haste).  The point is, if people see value in the quality of your product, and it fits a need - they will pay for it.  And, based on the gear list above, people here do.  It's also worth pointing out that some spend hundreds on bags, shock mounts, stereo bars, stands, cables, batteries, etc., all in the pursuit of quality.   

--Michael

Note:  I'm not trying to correlate price and sound quality, as we all know, that doesn't fit.  Some outrageously good recordings have been made with gear priced on the lower end of the spectrum.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 12:19:31 PM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2008, 12:50:16 PM »
Dan thank you for your insight & for joining our forum, we appreciate your time here. With that being said you don't necessarily need to provide on-board battery power. We are a crafty bunch, if you can make it powered by 12 volts drawing an amp or two per hour we will figure out how to power it. In our circles, if you make it they will come. We take great pride in what we do & go through great lengths to support a company that we feels supports us. Our market may be small but some of us are fiercely loyal to those who feel have our interests in mind.



Reading your post made me wonder about a couple of points.

Is there one or more commonly "battery packs" used by the "portable recording community"? What are the type plugs and jacks are  used to connect the battery to a unit (converter, micpre and alike)?
What is the prefered "storage" for the recorded music? Is it a laptop hard drive? Is there a preference for a
Mac vs. PC?

Thanks in advance to answers to my questions.

Regards
Dan Lavry
     

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2008, 01:06:59 PM »
Dan thank you for your insight & for joining our forum, we appreciate your time here. With that being said you don't necessarily need to provide on-board battery power. We are a crafty bunch, if you can make it powered by 12 volts drawing an amp or two per hour we will figure out how to power it. In our circles, if you make it they will come. We take great pride in what we do & go through great lengths to support a company that we feels supports us. Our market may be small but some of us are fiercely loyal to those who feel have our interests in mind.



Reading your post made me wonder about a couple of points.

Is there one or more commonly "battery packs" used by the "portable recording community"? What are the type plugs and jacks are  used to connect the battery to a unit (converter, micpre and alike)?
What is the prefered "storage" for the recorded music? Is it a laptop hard drive? Is there a preference for a
Mac vs. PC?

Thanks in advance to answers to my questions.

Regards
Dan Lavry


Dan,

the battery packs that most people use a varied.  It used to be sealed lead-acid batteries (SLA) were the norm.  Now, most people prefer to use NiMH or L-Ion battery packs, because they are lighter when lugging around our gear.  Generally speaking, the gear that we use runs on either 6V DC or 12V DC, and some pieces of gear can run on anything from 6-12V.  Having that flexibility is nice.  There are a lot of L-Ion batteries that are made for portable DVD players or whatnot, that output 9V.  Those are popular here.  Many people make their own battery packs by purchasing batteries meant for other purposes, hacking off whatever connector comes with the battery, and then soldering on whatever sort of connecter they need.  Regarding a connection.  If there's room on the unit, a 4-pin XLR is great (the Grace Design V2 and the Benchmark AD2402-96 (aka AD2K+) both use a 4-pin XLR for power).  However, as gear is getting smaller and smaller, it seems like these connectors are being used less frequently because they take up too much space.  Most gear that we use make use of standard barrel power plugs (the kind of plugs you can get from radio shack).  There are even a few barrel plug models that provide a locking connection as well, which is nice.  Basically, if its a standard connector that people can buy easily and relatively cheaply, and is secure, it's a good connector to use. 

in regards to recording devices, laptops are no longer the preferred way to record.  too many variable and they're too fragile for the kind of environments many of us record in (loud bars with drunken people surrounding us).  These days, most people have dedicated hard drive or flash card recorders.  Sound Devices 722, Tascam HD-P2, Marantz PMD-671, M-Audio Microtrack, etc, etc.  there are a number of other smaller flash card recorders that are also popular because they're small, but many lack a digital input.
These HD and flash card recorders are nice, because you just turn it on and hit record (a lot less to worry about relative to a laptop), and then its easy to copy the show to your computer (either PC or mac) at home via USB or firewire.

thanks for taking an interest in our community.
- Jason

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2008, 01:08:01 PM »
I can not make an AD10 fit in a pocket, but I can make it portable enough. I just do not know how many people with portable recording applications have a requirement for the highest sound quality.


The short answer is that most of us here strive for the highest sound quality.  It's not easy to make high quality recordings in a hostile environment that one often has very little control over.  However, that is a small part of what makes this hobby fun.  The gear we use is one of the variables that we have complete control over.

Let me further answer that with a very short list examples of manufacturer's that people have been known to use around here:

Mics:  Schoeps, Nuemann, DPA, AKG, MBHO, Microtech Gefell, etc

Pres/AD's/Both & More:  Neve Portico, Apogee, Grace Designs, Sound Devices, Sonosax, etc

I purposely picked those because they are on the more expensive side (and I know I've left some off in my haste).  The point is, if people see value in the quality of your product, and it fits a need - they will pay for it.  And, based on the gear list above, people here do.  It's also worth pointing out that some spend hundreds on bags, shock mounts, stereo bars, stands, cables, batteries, etc., all in the pursuit of quality.   

--Michael

Note:  I'm not trying to correlate price and sound quality, as we all know, that doesn't fit.  Some outrageously good recordings have been made with gear priced on the lower end of the spectrum.

Thanks for the comments.
Am I correct to assume that most of the portable recordings is does via stereo and sorround is the exception?

I like your comment regarding the "pursuit of quality". I agree that no matter how good the gear is, if the music itself is not good, the end result will not be good. Great music on lesser gear can be wonderful. The best is of course when recording great music with great gear...

Regards
Dan Lavry



Offline mblindsey

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2008, 01:21:36 PM »

Am I correct to assume that most of the portable recordings is does via stereo and surround is the exception?


I think that is a fair statement.  I think some people are doing surround with Soundfield gear, and then there is also the TetraMic from Core Sound.  Someone else here might be able to provide a better answer.

I think running four channel recorders seem to be becoming more popular (cards + omini or cards/omnis + sbd).  Four channels will be my next step (Edirol R-44, not yet released).
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline Brian

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2008, 01:29:59 PM »
4 track recordings have become popular of late with recorders like the sound devices 744t and edirol R4.

most use the onboard ADC of the recorders when going four channel though. tapers are a funny bunch.  if there was a four channel outboard ADC that could be run on DC power and not cost a mint,  we'd buy it for sure ;D  that is of course if it sounded better than the onboard ADC of the recorders.  I personally think the ADC's in HD/flash based recorders are always getting better.

edit to clarify:  not to say they are getting better than dedicated outboard ADC's.  just that the onboard ADC's on recorders coming out today sound much better than they did, say, 3-5 years ago
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 01:43:33 PM by Brian »

Offline aegert

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2008, 02:30:54 PM »
Dan
First off thanks for stepping in +t...

Headphone would not really be necessary as most all of us have that on the bit bucket we use... The battery issues were covered very well as was dc connectors...

It is important to have a very flexible pre capable of being fairly transparent with HPF and padding. The HPF with choices of slope and freq! Your gear is world class and will be very prised in our world for sure. I think having features that support the film industry woudl probably be the best marketing and sales promoting for a new product. Looking at the wendt, sd and sure pre/mix pre products with your world class a/d would be a very very hot product for that market...

Personally metering is very important for my needs. I find that  many of the pre/ a/d's don't have a very readable and usable meter. Some  better intuitive peak detection ala a programmable led for personal level set would be great... ie setting it of -2 or -1 db not just a last led before 0 as -3db.

It is great you came over here. It is so refreshing to see manufacturers reaching out to users and having open dialog. Thanks again

A
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Schoeps CMT44's > Self Built Neutrik/ Tuchel 2 ch Snake > Switchcraft Phantom to T-power Adapters > Grace Lunatec V3 > Sound Devices 722

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2008, 04:42:05 PM »
I just took a look at the specs of the AD10 and it appears to draw only 0.1 amps at 90+ volts. Assuming 0.1 amps at 110 volts, that's only 11 watts.

I currently power my DAV BG1 with an exeltech inverter. It uses about 20 watts.  Others are using a/c powered tube pre-amps in the field.  Where there is a will, there is a way...

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2008, 07:19:09 PM »
I just took a look at the specs of the AD10 and it appears to draw only 0.1 amps at 90+ volts. Assuming 0.1 amps at 110 volts, that's only 11 watts.

I currently power my DAV BG1 with an exeltech inverter. It uses about 20 watts.  Others are using a/c powered tube pre-amps in the field.  Where there is a will, there is a way...


Yes, I was wondering about that inverter business. When I found out that my alarm battery backup (power failure here are not uncommon) is only good for 48 hours maximum, and that the alarm company has no solutions, I looked around, and ended up with a couple of very heavy duty batteries and a Tripp-lite inverter, the type that gives good "switch-over", protection, regulation... I do not recall off hand what the outcome was, but I believe I am getting around .1A for almost 2 weeks. I tested it with a "dummy load" for that long...
Clearly, I would not call that system portable, and it does not need to be. But when I heard 1Amp for 2 hours, it almost sounds like a high efficiency inverter and a battery can go a long way.

Still, I think that when it comes top portability, it would be good to have all the desired features in one reasonable size case, and that the design should be done with a lot of emphasis on power consumption. Of course, I will look into a design that includes the appropriate DC to DC converter.

Here is a question:
Of course, most pro recordings use condensers. Condensers are great, but they also have some "issues", relative to dynamic mics. First, dynamics are more robust, and many condensers are relatively fragile. Second, with condensers, one needs to be careful regarding mechanical motion of the cables (such as tapping on the cable), to avoid "thump" sounds. That is because a cable has capacitance, and when charged to 48VDC, you tap it, the capacitance changes for a moment, which generates a voltage "spike".
The above weaknesses seem to me to be more of an issue for portable applications, while dynamics offer robust operation with fewer issues. Yes, of course the condenser yields more output, and very often better response, but there are a few dynamics out there that are pretty nice. So is the majority using condensers? That would be my guess, but I do not really know.

Regards
Dan Lavry

 

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