Topic: Matrix

[harmon712]

My first time doing a matrix recording.  I think it came out ok, I just want your input and tips for next time.

https://archive.org/details/wr2016-01-21.matrix.flac16

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

This is just my opinion, but I'd rather have a bit more SBD in my mix.

One thing I like to do is to try different mixes when I have multiple sources. Do one with more AUD and one with more SBD. Also I like to take a break after I think I've got things dialed and then listen again later.

[capnhook]

One thing I like to do is to try different mixes when I have multiple sources. Do one with more AUD and one with more SBD. Also I like to take a break after I think I've got things dialed and then listen again later.

Yep, what a difference a day makes.  Great advice +T

[Humbug]

I've run a few matrices now, and my preference is less SBD than AUD; but I tape mostly rock bands, and the purpose of the SBD is to bring forward the vocals, and sometimes the guitar(s).

A typical ratio I use is (approx) 60:40 AUD:SBD.

But whatever sounds best to your ears, and as the previous posters said, don't rush it.

Your recording sounds great, by the way, you must be pleased. Unusual Beatles cover :-)

Why are tracks 12-17, 19 missing titles?

[nulldogmas]

Optimal SBD/AUD ratio is going to depend on so many things — type of music (especially how much it depends on stage amps), size and shape of the room, quality of the board mix — that it's always going to be a case-by-case basis. I've had shows where I've used mostly SBD with only a small percentage of AUD to provide some ambience, and others where the SBD feed was almost all vocals and I just used a smidge of that to brighten those up.

Your matrix definitely sounds really good, especially for a first attempt, but I'd go with Fatah in saying a bit more SBD might be nice, to reduce some of the room echo. Without hearing what the isolated SBD sounds like, though, no way to know whether that would make matters worse in another way...

[harmon712]

Optimal SBD/AUD ratio is going to depend on so many things — type of music (especially how much it depends on stage amps), size and shape of the room, quality of the board mix — that it's always going to be a case-by-case basis. I've had shows where I've used mostly SBD with only a small percentage of AUD to provide some ambience, and others where the SBD feed was almost all vocals and I just used a smidge of that to brighten those up.

Your matrix definitely sounds really good, especially for a first attempt, but I'd go with Fatah in saying a bit more SBD might be nice, to reduce some of the room echo. Without hearing what the isolated SBD sounds like, though, no way to know whether that would make matters worse in another way...

Here's the 2 separate sources...

BSC1: https://archive.org/details/wr2016-01-21.bsc1.flac16
SBD: https://archive.org/details/wr2016-01-21.sbd.flac16

[acidjack]

I think one could quibble with the amount of SBD, but personally I think given how unbalanced the SBD was (mostly vocals, strangely high single percussion(?) sound, like a loud clicking) and how echo-y the AUD was (I'd guess you were pretty far back in the room and/or used some kind of unjustifiably wide pattern). So I actually think your balance was pretty optimal, and a really, really nice job for a first time. If I were you, the next time I was in that venue, if I could get closer to the sound source, I would; I would use a wider spacing between the mics but narrower included angle; and I would probably use the hypercardiod capsules.

Anyway, you should be very happy with your result. Here's to many more.

[nulldogmas]

I think one could quibble with the amount of SBD, but personally I think given how unbalanced the SBD was (mostly vocals, strangely high single percussion(?) sound, like a loud clicking) and how echo-y the AUD was (I'd guess you were pretty far back in the room and/or used some kind of unjustifiably wide pattern). So I actually think your balance was pretty optimal, and a really, really nice job for a first time. If I were you, the next time I was in that venue, if I could get closer to the sound source, I would; I would use a wider spacing between the mics but narrower included angle; and I would probably use the hypercardiod capsules.

Anyway, you should be very happy with your result. Here's to many more.

Ha, I was in the middle of posting how the SBD sounds relatively well balanced to me, so you could afford to use more of it in the mix. Good example of how YMMV all this is.

I don't think there's any substitute for trying multiple mix ratios, listening to each until you doubt your own sanity, then bugging all your friends to listen and tell you which they prefer until they, too, begin to doubt your sanity. And probably still ending up with the initial one you settled on in the first place.

[georgeh]

If you know or plan on doing a matrix, I'd run levels lower than normal, I prefer not to use any compression tool on recordings. I usually feel sbd are too bright, so I tend to go 60 aud 40 sbd.
nice recording, thanks

[nulldogmas]

If you know or plan on doing a matrix, I'd run levels lower than normal, I prefer not to use any compression tool on recordings.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. You don't need to use compression to reduce the volume of each source, just ... reduce the volume.

Throwing away bits during recording to avoid throwing away those same bits later doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Better to record both at normal levels, especially since then if one source goes bad you still have the other at full volume to work with.

[georgeh]

If you know or plan on doing a matrix, I'd run levels lower than normal, I prefer not to use any compression tool on recordings.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. You don't need to use compression to reduce the volume of each source, just ... reduce the volume.

Throwing away bits during recording to avoid throwing away those same bits later doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Better to record both at normal levels, especially since then if one source goes bad you still have the other at full volume to work with.

so reducing volume is different than compression, and doesn't change original recording traits ...okay I stand corrected.
Using Wavelab 6, I've had issues doing martix were I wished I ran levels lower. By no means an expert on martixing sources

[georgeh]

^^also just saying a bit lower on the levels not real weak, just lower..

[pohaku]

I find that the SB to AUD ratio often depends on what is running through the SB.  In small shows/small venues, the SB may be just vocals (and keys), with the rest of the instruments amped through the back line or not at all (drums).  Sometimes the kick and/or some of the other drums may be run through the SB.  In large shows, pretty much everything is run through the SB to some degree.  Generally I have found, at least for me, there is an inverse relationship between the amount run through the SB and the percentage of AUD I use in a mix - that is, if there is more run through the SB, I use a smaller percentage of AUD in the mix - and vice versa.  It is trickier to mix when some, but not all, instruments are run through the SB.  Definitely walking away from a mix and coming back to it later helps.  I also play a mix in my car and on my home stereo, in addition to my monitors, to try and get a better sense of how it translates.

[acidjack]

I find that the SB to AUD ratio often depends on what is running through the SB.  In small shows/small venues, the SB may be just vocals (and keys), with the rest of the instruments amped through the back line or not at all (drums).  Sometimes the kick and/or some of the other drums may be run through the SB.  In large shows, pretty much everything is run through the SB to some degree.  Generally I have found, at least for me, there is an inverse relationship between the amount run through the SB and the percentage of AUD I use in a mix - that is, if there is more run through the SB, I use a smaller percentage of AUD in the mix - and vice versa.  It is trickier to mix when some, but not all, instruments are run through the SB.  Definitely walking away from a mix and coming back to it later helps.  I also play a mix in my car and on my home stereo, in addition to my monitors, to try and get a better sense of how it translates.

This, in general.

[nulldogmas]

I find that the SB to AUD ratio often depends on what is running through the SB.  In small shows/small venues, the SB may be just vocals (and keys), with the rest of the instruments amped through the back line or not at all (drums).  Sometimes the kick and/or some of the other drums may be run through the SB.  In large shows, pretty much everything is run through the SB to some degree. 

Totally, but it depends on the band as well. It's mostly about stage amps: If the band on stage has their amps up to 11 and it's a relatively small room, then those instruments end up getting dropped out of the PA mix because otherwise they'd be too loud. If it's a mandolin-and-melodica duo, it'll probably go through the amps unless they're playing in a closet.

[Sloan Simpson]

Wherever your DAW shows a ratio of your mix, or any numbers relating to that, cut out a small piece of a Post-It note and cover that up on your monitor, never look at it again  SBD mixes vary so greatly in my experience that formulas are useless at best, or dangerous at worst (because they discourage critical listening).

[smokenburn]

The amount of SBD depends on the board mix.  You might not want to use any at all, on the other hand you might want to use mostly SBD and just a little AUD.  Likewise, the amount of AUD used may vary based on the room acoustics.

[admkrk]

When you mix the two sources, the overall volume is additive. There is no reason to try to adjust for that when recording. Just adjust each track in the montage and this:

Wherever your DAW shows a ratio of your mix, or any numbers relating to that, cut out a small piece of a Post-It note and cover that up on your monitor, never look at it again

Using Wavelab 6, I've had issues doing martix were I wished I ran levels lower. By no means an expert on martixing sources

[Gutbucket]

Wherever your DAW shows a ratio of your mix, or any numbers relating to that, cut out a small piece of a Post-It note and cover that up on your monitor, never look at it again  SBD mixes vary so greatly in my experience that formulas are useless at best, or dangerous at worst (because they discourage critical listening).

FTW!

Who cares what the ratio is? It's never going to be the same twice.  Unless the two sources are level adjusted beforehand so that they have identical RMS values before combining them, a ratio of the combination of the two is completely meaningless.  And even if that was actually done, identical mix ratios between two different recording dates would still produce different subjective results, because differences in content, spectrum, and dynamics between the two sources will require different mix ratios.  Even if RMS level matched, mixing the two source based on a ratio is meaningless.

Mix ratio only has meaning in some audio software as a rather clumsy way of adjusting the relative levels, and even then only within that particular session with those particular files.  Whatever ratio works optionally for one recording usually will not translate to the next one.

All it takes is listening with a hand on the level controls. Figure out what relative combination levels sounds best, then adjust the level of the resulting combination.

Just like the admiral confirmed as well.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Wherever your DAW shows a ratio of your mix, or any numbers relating to that, cut out a small piece of a Post-It note and cover that up on your monitor, never look at it again  SBD mixes vary so greatly in my experience that formulas are useless at best, or dangerous at worst (because they discourage critical listening).

FTW!

Who cares what the ratio is? It's never going to be the same twice.  Unless the two sources are level adjusted beforehand so that they have identical RMS values before combining them, a ratio of the combination of the two is completely meaningless anyway!

All it takes is listening with a hand on the level controls. Figure out what sounds best, then adjust the level of the resulting combination however is necessary.

Just like the admiral confirmed as well.

In full agreement with Sloan, GB, and others. 

Another thing to keep in mind, if your mix sounds echo-y, is that you may have to push back, time-wise, your SBD source in relation to the AUD/MIC source to compensate for the distance between the stage and your AUD microphones.  Zooming in on the waveforms and aligning everything up in the beginning on, say, a drum hit, cymbal crash, etc is a good way to do so. 

[opsopcopolis]

^ agreed with all of that.  When I start working on a matrix, I hard pan my board to one side and my AUD to the other and align with the clearest snare drum hit I can find.  Then mix from there.  I probably tend to use a bit more board than most of you guys because I love the sound of a slightly more lively board, rather than a slightly more defined AUD.  I have a feeling that I do more editing than most tapers out there, but I occasionally will split my board feed with a crossover at around 250, and essentially mix low end and mids/highs separately.  Apply a bit of compression to the board and limit them on the master for some glue

Wherever your DAW shows a ratio of your mix, or any numbers relating to that, cut out a small piece of a Post-It note and cover that up on your monitor, never look at it again  SBD mixes vary so greatly in my experience that formulas are useless at best, or dangerous at worst (because they discourage critical listening).

There's really no better rule than this.  The idea of having something pre-set/determined before you even get it into the DAW is really dumb and only set to hinder your success.

Here are a few of my better matricies:
https://archive.org/details/nthpower2015-02-21.ca-14matrix
https://archive.org/details/moontaxi2016-01-28.matrix
https://archive.org/details/AQ2015-07-10.CM-33Matrix
https://archive.org/details/fataztec2015-03-22.Matrix