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Author Topic: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technology)  (Read 17083 times)

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cshepherd

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Van den Hul has been talking about this cable for almost a year now.  We saw a sample at CES, but were finally able to listen to The Orchid this weekend when our 1m rca's arrived.  Van den Hul has hit a sonic and visual homerun with their latest creation.  Quite possibly the best sounding interconnect they've produced yet.  It is extremely open up top, it has great bass that boogies and a very full sounding midrange.  Compared to the Atlas Navigator All Cu, The Orchid has a more realistic sound that brings you closer to the music.  Dale and I listened to music Saturday night til dawn on the Sonneteer Byron cdp and Orton Integrated amp (30 wpc solid state).  Speakers were the Neat Petite mk. III stand mounts (6" driver/ribbon tweeter) with Van den Hul's The Breeze (tweeters) and Harmonix CS-120 (drivers) for speaker cables.  The Orchid was stunning all night long, no matter what we played.

The Navigator All Cu is an awesome interconnect, edit: but The Orchid is better.  For now, I'd like to retract that statement and go with "different".  I think it's too early to tell if one is clearly better than the other.  I'll be commenting on specific traits after we spend some more time with the interconnect.  It's going to require more listening and cable swaps to see a clear picture.  The Navigator All Cu and The Orchid are both really good.  Sorry for jumping the gun on that claim.  (end edit)  The Orchid has the size, weight and convenience of an active cable with the sonic benefits traditioinally only gained with 7mm-8mm heavy duty audiophile cables (edited for grammer 5.13.06).  Do we sound excited.  We are.

Prices:
$225 (.6m set) / $440 (1m set) / $1420 (3m set) / $1890 (4m set)
edit:  those are msrp's...We'll be able to show a little Eugene Hi-Fi love on those prices.

We ordered a 4m and .6m demo set today.  I think the 3m sets should be seriously considered at these prices.  My 4m mic cables almost always have extra cable coiled up at the bottom of the stand.  If your stand doesn't go above 8 ft., a 3m set will get the job done. 

If all goes well, the inaugural run with these cables will be for Wilco in Calgary on 6/28 (GA) and Edmonton on 6/29 (lower balcony, center).  Our goal is to make it back to Eugene for Widespread Panic on July 11th where we'll be doing a direct comparison (1st set/2nd set) with the Navigator All Cu cables.

Technical information on The Orchid can be found here:  http://www.vandenhul.nl/cable/orchid.htm  It's conductor is Matched Crystal OFC with a very dense and pure silver coating, insulated with Van den Hul's patented Linear Structured Carbon.  The solid core conductor also employs a PTFE (Teflon) dialectric.

We had the opportunity to meet A.J. Van den Hul (founder) at CES this year.  It turns out he is a field recording hobbiest as well.  We spoke for 15 minutes or so about field recording experiences and techniques.  The all-carbon xlr, The Second, has been his favorite microphone cable up to this point.  However, it was clear that their attention and excitement was focused on The Orchid, repeatedly mentioning how great the dynamics are and how versatile it is with regards to various applications.  Below is a rundown of A.J.'s recording rig.

~crackpot


A.J. Van den Hul's recording rig:
   1. The microphones used were B&K type 4190 with B&K amplifiers type 2669. Special custom designed acoustic couplers were used. We applied the lowest number of microphones possible; in many recordings not more than four. All microphone powering was done by external batteries.

   2. For all analog and digital signal routing we used our well-proven Linear Structured Carbon ® cable The SECOND ®. Over 200 meters were used for all analog and digital connections.

   3. The mains was filtered and stabilized at exactly 220 Volt 50 Hz. Each mains cable again had its own filter.

   4. The mixing console used is custom built and contains broadband opamps.

   5. The decision was made to work exclusively at 96 kHz samplerate with 24 bit resolution (DVD standard). Recording was done on two Nagra-D recorders.

   6. The AD conversion for the Nagra-D recorders was performed by the dCS 904 converter. For the Sony 2500 backup DAT recorder we used a strongly upgraded dCS 900 AD converter.

   7. The conversion from 96 kHz 24 bit DVD to 44.1 kHz 16 bit CD-standard was done with the dCS 972 digital to digital converter.

   8. Monitoring was done using the dCS Elgar DA converter. We furthermore used the Sony MDR-CD3000 headphones and the Tannoy 800 A active.

   9. All mains plug polarities were optimized using our POLARITY CHECKER to minimize ground leakage currents.

  10. Each piece of music is an original recording without cuts or editing.

The aim of all these technical exercises was to sonically come as close as possible to what I recall as the best of analog. A kind of sound common around the mid-seventies without rumble or noise and with higher dynamics and strong spatial impressions. The digital to digital conversion from 96 kHz 24 bit DVD to 44.1 kHz 16 bit CD-standard using the dCS 972 allowed us to retain a lot of the original sound quality that was available during the very lively recording sessions.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 12:43:02 PM by cshepherd »

cshepherd

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A few more pics...the blue cable (Mic Hybrid) is a 6 mm dia. and the brown cable (The Second) is a 7 mm diameter.  I should also say that even if the mic cables are not a possiblity for someone, the shortie xlr pre amp cables for $225 are a no brainer, IMO.

~crackpot
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 01:36:06 AM by cshepherd »

cshepherd

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I don't have any splitters that are of the same quality as the Navigator and Orchid.  Using an inferior quality splitter would show relative differences, but neither recording would be an accurate representation of the cable's sound due to the splitter cable's influence.  Widespread is playing at the Cuthbert, Eugene's outdoor half-shell ampitheatre on July 11th. That will likely be the first comp tape we'll be able to make, which will be a full rig cable swap at set break. 

Chris
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 05:23:48 AM by cshepherd »

cshepherd

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I understand where you are coming from.  We're not expecting anybody to get out their credit card sight unseen.  We'll be doing everything we can to accurately highlight how good this cable is for our community.  I think the technology is really interesting.  They use a single solid core conductor and use one of the screens for the second conductor.  They also claim the core is virtually unbreakable.  I would gladly take this sound in an 8mm cable and haul the weight.  That it's only 2.9mm and is so incredibly lightweight is amazing.  Performance like The Orchid's has, to my knowledge, never been available in such a small wire.  It's got taping rig written all over it.  I would sacrifice a round trip flight,  hotel rooms and a few shows to pay for it.  Seriously, I'd spend at least $1000 to fly to Atlanta to see Panic at the Fox for two nights.  The cables are expensive, but so is travel, so are rigs, so are tickets.  Getting the goods always takes sacrifice. 

Chris
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 05:24:18 AM by cshepherd »

Offline F.O.Bean

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chris-id ideally like to hear a comp w/ star quad vs. orchids and the military-grade silver-clad copper cables we all use ala leegeddy/toddr/hyperconductors vs. orchids :)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

cshepherd

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I thought some folks might enjoy pics of The Orchid mic cables that came in this week.  I've been hauling a full Sonicase bag for years.  This is by far the lightest, smallest package I've ever taped with.  Granted, the V2 is staying at home.  The bag is a The North Face "Kanga".  It holds the 722 in its padded bag, two padded mic bags, two AT 8410a shock mounts and the cables.  It also holds the 722 charger in an outside pocket.  I'll be doing a 'slight modification' to allow side entry for the mic cables.  We're leaving Monday for the Wilco shows in Calgary and Edmonton. 

The cables in the pics are 4m long.  Van den Hul is now using Neutrik's silver pin xlr connectors.  They used to use the gold plated pin version. 

Chris
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 10:12:00 PM by cshepherd »

Offline F.O.Bean

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nice chris, id also like to see more pics of the bag setup :)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

cshepherd

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nice chris, id also like to see more pics of the bag setup :)

Here's a better picture of the bag.  The cables wind up and store in the front compartment before plugging into the 722. 

Chris
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 10:13:14 PM by cshepherd »

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you been leaving the v2 at home chris ???

thats a nice bag :)

i have my portabrace cs-7+rm deluxe stored in my kelty redwing backpack, i wanted to ideally just tote the PB bag, but i have too much shit to mjust haul the PB bag, id have to get another rmdeluxe if i wanted to just tote the pb bags, but then it would be as big as the pb+kelty bag,. and i already had the kelty bag, so im happy w/ my bag setup as is :)

i have too many clamps/tbars/accessories to just tote the pb anyway

i do love the ar-7 tho, made so perfectly for the 722 its scary, plus the way the pb sits in my kelty, it makes the kelty sit upright just perfectly, and the padding and the internal frame on the kelty is sweet, i walked 18 miles into coventry w/ my taping gear and it didnt hurt me as bad as i thought it would ;) plus for rain protestion, the pb+kelty cant be beat, im afraid of no condidtions w/ that setup

i tell you what tho, that NF bag is sick ;D

how expensive would a 1 meter pair of the orchids run me ? what about if i got just the cable and had someone put the neutrik ends on it ???
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline F.O.Bean

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nevermind, saw prices in your post w/ neutriks already attached

and +T for the sweet setup ;)

you wanna sell the v2 ;)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

cshepherd

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When Dale and I were doing sound for a local band, we were using the V2 between the sax's microphone and processor.  I got a chance to use the internal pre's on the 722 quite a bit.  I've got a shortie xlr set of The Orchid for the V2, but we're taping from the 4th row, dfc in the pit in Edmonton >:D and I know the Sonicase bag would be a total PITA down there.  My gut tells me I'm not going to miss the V2 down front, but we'll see.  The 722 pre's remind me of the ad1000 sound in a 24 bit kind of way.

It will be a while before I even think about selling the V2, though. 

Chris

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When Dale and I were doing sound for a local band, we were using the V2 between the sax's microphone and processor.  I got a chance to use the internal pre's on the 722 quite a bit.  I've got a shortie xlr set of The Orchid for the V2, but we're taping from the 4th row, dfc in the pit in Edmonton >:D and I know the Sonicase bag would be a total PITA down there.  My gut tells me I'm not going to miss the V2 down front, but we'll see.  The 722 pre's remind me of the ad1000 sound in a 24 bit kind of way.

It will be a while before I even think about selling the V2, though. 

Chris

so youre happy w/ the 722 pre's ?? i have only ran v3>analog>722 the two times i ran it live

kinda like a ad1k in 24-bit ehh? thats a good thing :) wonder how the pre's will sound w/ the 480's ??? im dying to try them out, im gonna run a comp between sets next weekend if kyle will loan me eitehr his v2 or sax :) set 1: pre>722 set two: mics>722, im PSYCHED to hear the difference :)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

cshepherd

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First recording made with The Orchid is now available for download.  We did a real time digital audio transfer instead of the usual firewire method.

Wilco
Calgary, Alberta
MacEwan Ballroom
June 28th, 2006
Wednesday Night

Source:
fob/dfc 30 ft. from stage / 8 ft. stand / 90 degrees (pointed at the stacks)
Neumann km 184's > Sound Devices 722 @ 24/88.2
using Van den Hul "The Orchid" mic cables
AT 8410a shock mounts and Vibrapod isolation feet (under the mic stand) were used to isolate the mics from vibrations.
recording by Chris & Dale Shepherd

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=26869

Chris

Offline JasonSobel

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First recording made with The Orchid is now available for download.  We did a real time digital audio transfer instead of the usual firewire method.

Wilco
Calgary, Alberta
MacEwan Ballroom
June 28th, 2006
Wednesday Night

Source:
fob/dfc 30 ft. from stage / 8 ft. stand / 90 degrees (pointed at the stacks)
Neumann km 184's > Sound Devices 722 @ 24/88.2
using Van den Hul "The Orchid" mic cables
AT 8410a shock mounts and Vibrapod isolation feet (under the mic stand) were used to isolate the mics from vibrations.
recording by Chris & Dale Shepherd

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=26869

Chris

thank you for posting that, Chris.  I'm wondering why you went through all the trouble with a real-time S/PDIF transfer, letting it all "warm-up" for an hour and using vibraprods and such and such, instead of transfering via firewire.  when you copy data via firewire (or USB, for that matter), the digital file is an exact copy.  while all the extra stuff you did may have reduced S/PDIF jitter, you can't get better than an exact copy.  so why take the time and effort if there won't be any improvement?  just curious?

thanks again,
Jason

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I see where Chris is coming from, but I'd like to hear this after multiple transfers.  Once in the way he did the above mentioned seed (real time), and a second time done "as normal" via firewire/usb without all the bells and whistles.  This would be a true "comp" for the items he mentioned (vibrapods, warming up equipment, etc...), at least from a transfer process.

Hell...several transfers could be done: with/without vibrapods, with/without "warming" equipment, and any combination thereof.  Personally, none of this stuff would make a difference for me as my playback system would not support the minute improvement (if any) by performing said bells and whistles.

Not diggin', as from one geek to another, bells and whistles are keen, I just don't have equipment to support such adjustments.
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cshepherd

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Hi Jason,
It's just an experiment to see if there's an audible difference between firewire and s/pdif.  We honestly don't know, but want to find out for ourselves.   I've got a file transferred via firewire on my laptop.  We're looking forward to listening to both transfers.  I'd be happy to make them available to anyone interested.  We've got two Wilco shows to experiment with and Panic's coming up next week as well.

Thanks for checking it out,
Chris

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Hi Jason,
It's just an experiment to see if there's an audible difference between firewire and s/pdif.  We honestly don't know, but want to find out for ourselves.   I've got a file transferred via firewire on my laptop.  We're looking forward to listening to both transfers.  I'd be happy to make them available to anyone interested.  We've got two Wilco shows to experiment with and Panic's coming up next week as well.

Thanks for checking it out,
Chris

Chris,
thanks for responding to me.  I don't really mean to make a big deal out of this, but I'm still wondering.  assuming you agree that the firewire copy is an exact copy of the file on the 722, then it's true that any possible difference would be inaccuracies in the S/PDIF data stream.  ok, that's fine.  just testing the accuracy and the reliability of the S/PDIF output, I can see that as worthwhile.  but instead of a listening test as to whether or not you can hear any differences, wouldn't it be better and more precise to just trim both files (the one transferred via S/PDIF and the one transferred via firewire) to start and end at the exact same point, and then compare wav files.  there are numerous ways to do it.  you could create an .md5 file for each .wav, you could invert one file and then mix together.  if they are identical, that would yield an absolutely flat line.  and I think even EAC has a "wav compare" feature.  Don't you think this would be the best way to compare the two files?
- Jason

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Hi Jason,
It's just an experiment to see if there's an audible difference between firewire and s/pdif.  We honestly don't know, but want to find out for ourselves.   I've got a file transferred via firewire on my laptop.  We're looking forward to listening to both transfers.  I'd be happy to make them available to anyone interested.  We've got two Wilco shows to experiment with and Panic's coming up next week as well.

Thanks for checking it out,
Chris

Chris,
thanks for responding to me.  I don't really mean to make a big deal out of this, but I'm still wondering.  assuming you agree that the firewire copy is an exact copy of the file on the 722, then it's true that any possible difference would be inaccuracies in the S/PDIF data stream.  ok, that's fine.  just testing the accuracy and the reliability of the S/PDIF output, I can see that as worthwhile.  but instead of a listening test as to whether or not you can hear any differences, wouldn't it be better and more precise to just trim both files (the one transferred via S/PDIF and the one transferred via firewire) to start and end at the exact same point, and then compare wav files.  there are numerous ways to do it.  you could create an .md5 file for each .wav, you could invert one file and then mix together.  if they are identical, that would yield an absolutely flat line.  and I think even EAC has a "wav compare" feature.  Don't you think this would be the best way to compare the two files?
- Jason
+t
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cshepherd

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Hi Jason,
It's just an experiment to see if there's an audible difference between firewire and s/pdif.  We honestly don't know, but want to find out for ourselves.   I've got a file transferred via firewire on my laptop.  We're looking forward to listening to both transfers.  I'd be happy to make them available to anyone interested.  We've got two Wilco shows to experiment with and Panic's coming up next week as well.

Thanks for checking it out,
Chris

Chris,
thanks for responding to me.  I don't really mean to make a big deal out of this, but I'm still wondering.  assuming you agree that the firewire copy is an exact copy of the file on the 722, then it's true that any possible difference would be inaccuracies in the S/PDIF data stream.  ok, that's fine.  just testing the accuracy and the reliability of the S/PDIF output, I can see that as worthwhile.  but instead of a listening test as to whether or not you can hear any differences, wouldn't it be better and more precise to just trim both files (the one transferred via S/PDIF and the one transferred via firewire) to start and end at the exact same point, and then compare wav files.  there are numerous ways to do it.  you could create an .md5 file for each .wav, you could invert one file and then mix together.  if they are identical, that would yield an absolutely flat line.  and I think even EAC has a "wav compare" feature.  Don't you think this would be the best way to compare the two files?
- Jason

Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris

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Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris

oh, ok.  I thought it was a safe assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  surely there are other, more critical applications (non-audio related) that make use of firewire where the a an exact digital copy of a file is essential.  on the other hand, I do understand wanting to compare and hear and differences for yourself.

to get back on topic, thanks again for posting these samples.  and I'm looking forward to hearing more shows recorded with the "orchid" cables.  at some point in the future, I'll probably be interested in upgrading my canare star-quads :)

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Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris

md5 is your friend

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Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris

md5 is your friend

yeah, i make an md5 on the 722 before transfer w/ md5summer, then once transferred i verify the md5 in md5summer, believe it or not, ive had to re-transfer a few files, so EVERYONE should be doing that method IMO, as always YMMV
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2006, 04:25:24 PM »
There's a nice conversation on Audigone between some Eugene Hi-Fi customers about van den Hul's rca and xlr cables.  Particularly The Orchid, The Second, The Mainsstream a/c and Mainsserver a/c cables.

Chris

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rcabl&1148248312&read&3&zzlBblilikoi&& 

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2006, 05:19:44 PM »
Hi Jason,
It's just an experiment to see if there's an audible difference between firewire and s/pdif.  We honestly don't know, but want to find out for ourselves.   I've got a file transferred via firewire on my laptop.  We're looking forward to listening to both transfers.  I'd be happy to make them available to anyone interested.  We've got two Wilco shows to experiment with and Panic's coming up next week as well.

Thanks for checking it out,
Chris

Chris,
thanks for responding to me.  I don't really mean to make a big deal out of this, but I'm still wondering.  assuming you agree that the firewire copy is an exact copy of the file on the 722, then it's true that any possible difference would be inaccuracies in the S/PDIF data stream.  ok, that's fine.  just testing the accuracy and the reliability of the S/PDIF output, I can see that as worthwhile.  but instead of a listening test as to whether or not you can hear any differences, wouldn't it be better and more precise to just trim both files (the one transferred via S/PDIF and the one transferred via firewire) to start and end at the exact same point, and then compare wav files.  there are numerous ways to do it.  you could create an .md5 file for each .wav, you could invert one file and then mix together.  if they are identical, that would yield an absolutely flat line.  and I think even EAC has a "wav compare" feature.  Don't you think this would be the best way to compare the two files?
- Jason

Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris
you don't need to make an assumption that firewire is flawless. it's a fact.  if the firewire wasn't perfect files transferred throught it would be corrupt.

Offline thegreatgumbino

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2006, 05:27:47 PM »

Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris

md5 is your friend

yeah, i make an md5 on the 722 before transfer w/ md5summer, then once transferred i verify the md5 in md5summer, believe it or not, ive had to re-transfer a few files, so EVERYONE should be doing that method IMO, as always YMMV

How are you doing this, Bean?  Walk a brother through it please.  Thanks.
It’s not what you look like when you’re doin’ what you’re doin’, it’s what your doin’ when you’re doin’ what you look like your doin’…express yourself. - Charles Wright

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Offline F.O.Bean

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Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris

md5 is your friend

yeah, i make an md5 on the 722 before transfer w/ md5summer, then once transferred i verify the md5 in md5summer, believe it or not, ive had to re-transfer a few files, so EVERYONE should be doing that method IMO, as always YMMV

How are you doing this, Bean?  Walk a brother through it please.  Thanks.

just open md5summer, then find the 722 HD under 'my computer'

pick the wav/s you want to make an md5 for, i make one md5 per file, or per set

once md5 summer makes trhe md5 file, just copy to your destination, then verify md5 in md5summer :)

DONE ;D

and if you dont have firmware version 1.79 beta, grab it, firewire speeds are 2x as fast as version 1.74, although 1.74 is a verified rock solid firmware

at moedown i got hosed on one set, not sure it was from version 1.79 or user error, i sent SD a detailed email regarding the issue tho

have fun w/ your new toy, its gonna sound so good on its own, youre gonna sell the v3, and maybe buy a v2 since the 722's AD is much superior to the v3's ADC IMHO

if you EVER have questions about the 722, just shoot me a PM 8) :smoking:
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Offline F.O.Bean

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oh and +T for joining team 722, we have the phatest all-in-one for under 10k ;D the 722 is by far the nicest pro gear iver ever had the fortune to run/own, you gonna LOVE ETTTTTTT

so when did ya get it in yer hands ??? did ya score that demo for 2k ??? if so, great deal bro, i wouldnt sell mine used for under 2200 ;D
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2006, 08:43:11 PM »
you don't need to make an assumption that firewire is flawless. it's a fact.  if the firewire wasn't perfect files transferred throught it would be corrupt.

Over a firewire link, file transfers are performed using asynchronous mode which does provide error correction.  However, when streaming audio or video in isochronous mode there is no error correction.   So it's entirely possible to have bit errors. 
The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2006, 08:48:29 PM »
dont use a 722, but i do use hd recorders, and the md5 is the true test if you got it exactly copied - i have had transfers fail, too - and it was the md5 that showed me...

i make an md5 of the file on the recorder, and then use that md5 sig to test the one that is copied to the harddrive...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 09:26:13 PM by macdaddy »
-macdaddy ++

akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2006, 09:14:23 PM »
just open md5summer, then find the 722 HD under 'my computer'

pick the wav/s you want to make an md5 for, i make one md5 per file, or per set

once md5 summer makes trhe md5 file, just copy to your destination, then verify md5 in md5summer :)

DONE ;D

and if you dont have firmware version 1.79 beta, grab it, firewire speeds are 2x as fast as version 1.74, although 1.74 is a verified rock solid firmware

at moedown i got hosed on one set, not sure it was from version 1.79 or user error, i sent SD a detailed email regarding the issue tho

have fun w/ your new toy, its gonna sound so good on its own, youre gonna sell the v3, and maybe buy a v2 since the 722's AD is much superior to the v3's ADC IMHO

if you EVER have questions about the 722, just shoot me a PM 8) :smoking:

Sweet.  Thanks, Bean.  I never would have thought about doing this, but it's a nice safeguard.  +T

oh and +T for joining team 722, we have the phatest all-in-one for under 10k ;D the 722 is by far the nicest pro gear iver ever had the fortune to run/own, you gonna LOVE ETTTTTTT

so when did ya get it in yer hands ??? did ya score that demo for 2k ??? if so, great deal bro, i wouldnt sell mine used for under 2200 ;D

I got it about a week ago.  It's the demo unit that Jason posted about.  It was a long wait, but well worth it.  It's a sweet little box for sure, and it's got tons of features. 
It’s not what you look like when you’re doin’ what you’re doin’, it’s what your doin’ when you’re doin’ what you look like your doin’…express yourself. - Charles Wright

My recordings on the Archive

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2006, 09:18:57 PM »
i make an md5 of the file on the recorder, and then use that md5 sig to test the one that is copied to the harddrive...

If you are using a firewire connection to access the recorder harddrive as a mounted block device, the data transfer should be through the asynchronous channel and error correction handled by the physical layer protocol should ensure that the upper layers see no bit errors.  When I saw MD5 issues with the 722 file transfers way back when, I blamed the 722's buffer management and not the firewire link layer.  But who really knows?

I assume that you are doing your MD5 test with the recorder mounted as a drive on your PC.  If so, then the file data is being transfered once to your workstation for the initial digest calculation and then again when you do the transfer to the PC HD.  You are using the same link twice.   If your digests don't match, you can't be sure which is the correct one or even if either is correct.  The only sure solution is to have a recorder that can internally calculate a digest and report that for comparison against the digest calculated on the file after it has been transferred.   

It is a nice sanity test because a random error won't appear the same way twice but it does not ensure that the firmware isn't sending erroneous data in a repeatable way.  If the device has a fault in the firewire driver, an internal digest calculation would reveal a problem.
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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2006, 09:30:15 PM »
lil kim-

if i have a card in the reader, and i run md5sum.exe on that wav file on the cf drive, the file on the card (recording) is being read. i save the signature as an md5 file.

then i copy the wav file from the cf to the hd (i use usb 2.0, but the interface is moot). i then take the md5 and run it against the file on my hardrive. if they check ok, then i know they are the exact same...

-macdaddy ++

akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2006, 09:35:34 PM »
Over a firewire link, file transfers are performed using asynchronous mode which does provide error correction.

Good to know.  Though I'm gonna start checking checksums with rsync (very easy). Just to see if there are any consistency problems.  Should be quicker with the new firmware.

I had a pc that had an incurable and *silent* dma transfer corruption problem.  It would mess flac files up every once in a while when they were copied from disk to disk or just written. I ended up installing a promise ata controller and moved all drives off the system interface.

As others have mentioned.. It isn't if you will get silent data corruption, it is when.

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2006, 09:44:31 PM »
macdaddy:
Oh.  If you have a card reader in your PC, its a different story.  You see MD5 mismatch when accessing the card in a reader?

freelunch:
Thats a good point that it could have been the firewire driver in the PC and nothing to do with the 722.

I used to do what Bean suggests above (mounting the 722 over firewire and doing a sanity check digest) and every once in a while I would get an error.  Sometimes I got 3 different digests when I ran three transfers of the same file.  I can't remember the exact differences in the data but iirc it looked like a dropped sample or two, which is inaudible.   Now I just blow it off because it was making me tense.  When I get the new firmware, I might go back to doing the test and see what happens.  It was just too painful at the speeds of the revision I have loaded.
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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2006, 09:48:59 PM »
once, but that couldve been a 'puter hiccup, ya'know..? i get them when copying from the archived dvd-rs. and i also get them when i check the md5s on dvd-rs, so sometimes your burns arent perfect - i always check the md5 of burns...



-macdaddy ++

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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2006, 09:52:15 PM »
macdaddy:
Oh.  If you have a card reader in your PC, its a different story.  You see MD5 mismatch when accessing the card in a reader?

freelunch:
Thats a good point that it could have been the firewire driver in the PC and nothing to do with the 722.

I used to do what Bean suggests above (mounting the 722 over firewire and doing a sanity check digest) and every once in a while I would get an error.  Sometimes I got 3 different digests when I ran three transfers of the same file.  I can't remember the exact differences in the data but iirc it looked like a dropped sample or two, which is inaudible.   Now I just blow it off because it was making me tense.  When I get the new firmware, I might go back to doing the test and see what happens.  It was just too painful at the speeds of the revision I have loaded.

yeah, it was painful w/ 1.74, 1.79 is about 2x faster i would guess, maybe faster

once, but that couldve been a 'puter hiccup, ya'know..? i get them when copying from the archived dvd-rs. and i also get them when i check the md5s on dvd-rs, so sometimes your burns arent perfect - i always check the md5 of burns...





i also include md5's w/ all of my data wavs/flacs and even after burning in nero w/ nero verifying, i still verify the md5's w/ mkwact before i put them away, a bit anal, but whatever, rather safe than sorry.

CRC errors are a nightmare
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Damn straight.  The 7xx is all about hitting record and the calm that comes from knowing you'll get it.


word!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
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Re: Van den Hul introduces 2.9 mm balanced cable -"The Orchid" (Tunnel Technolog
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2006, 12:55:31 PM »
Hi Jason,
It's just an experiment to see if there's an audible difference between firewire and s/pdif.  We honestly don't know, but want to find out for ourselves.   I've got a file transferred via firewire on my laptop.  We're looking forward to listening to both transfers.  I'd be happy to make them available to anyone interested.  We've got two Wilco shows to experiment with and Panic's coming up next week as well.

Thanks for checking it out,
Chris

Chris,
thanks for responding to me.  I don't really mean to make a big deal out of this, but I'm still wondering.  assuming you agree that the firewire copy is an exact copy of the file on the 722, then it's true that any possible difference would be inaccuracies in the S/PDIF data stream.  ok, that's fine.  just testing the accuracy and the reliability of the S/PDIF output, I can see that as worthwhile.  but instead of a listening test as to whether or not you can hear any differences, wouldn't it be better and more precise to just trim both files (the one transferred via S/PDIF and the one transferred via firewire) to start and end at the exact same point, and then compare wav files.  there are numerous ways to do it.  you could create an .md5 file for each .wav, you could invert one file and then mix together.  if they are identical, that would yield an absolutely flat line.  and I think even EAC has a "wav compare" feature.  Don't you think this would be the best way to compare the two files?
- Jason

Jason,
We're not making the assumption that firewire is a flawless transfer platform.  We're trying to find out if one sounds better than the other, not just documenting differences between the platforms.   This may seem like reinventing the wheel, but we want to hear for ourselves.

Chris
you don't need to make an assumption that firewire is flawless. it's a fact.  if the firewire wasn't perfect files transferred throught it would be corrupt.

Comp files are available for download here:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=71964.0

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That cable looks and sounds (description-wise) just like the Semflex HPI120, only with a pink sleeve.

http://www.semflex.com/pdf/HPI120.pdf 

I'm sorry, but it's funny, I can't seem to figure out, what the "hulliflex" really are. I can see it is patented, but that's about it. Don't mean to sound like a troll, but there's quite a lot of fluff in the text about the hulliflex, but no real information. Same with the cable itself. Loads of fluff, about the "hulliflex" making the cable sound better over time (it's a type of plastics, so good luck with that one), and such. But I guess that it's like Coca Cola - it sells because there is an image and a story to go with it. You're buying the story to quench your thirst. And that Coke all of sudden is doing a much better job than water.

Each to his own, though.

I do like the "skinnyness" of the cable, though, but I am not convinced.

 

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