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Offline airbladder

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Matrix
« on: February 24, 2004, 07:49:37 PM »
I would like to matrix some shows while they are still inside (upstate NY).  Looking at the samson mixpad 4 and behringer mxb1002.  They both can run of 9v’s if needed and are under 200$.  Any input on these units?  Other gear that would work better?  Now I run MBHO KA200N603> V2> Minime> DA-P1.  Would I still run the V2 in front of the mixer?  Would a unit like these be able to manipulate a delay in larger venues between the mics/board?  Any help would be great.
Thanks.
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Offline nickgregory

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2004, 08:29:49 PM »
I just bought the mxb1002 so I cant give you any practical experieince yet, but what I can say in my playing with it this weekend is that you will want to run the pre in front of it, and feed it a line signal...when I attempted to increase the gain, it is noisy as hell, but I think this unit will work great for my need of feeding it two line level signals for the mics (L/R) and two SBD feeds, and adjusting the channel faders to get the appropriate mix.

Also, you will not get a delay with units in this price range....

Once I get a chance to use it in the field I will post more

Offline joeshambro

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2004, 10:09:31 PM »
You'll need to add a digital delay in front of the board feed.  Best one for the price is the TC Electronic DTwo..

cpclark

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2004, 10:51:48 PM »
you really need a delay if the mics are any farther than 15 ft away from the stage, then the delay would start to be noticeable

Offline nickgregory

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2004, 08:51:21 AM »
you really need a delay if the mics are any farther than 15 ft away from the stage, then the delay would start to be noticeable

I think the 15 feet is a conservative statement.  I know that Craig and Carrington run at the Cats Cradle down here, with the mics closer to 30 ft from the stage, mixing it with a SBD feed using a Mackie 1202 VLZ, which I do not believe has a delay....

Offline nic

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2004, 09:05:23 AM »
you really need a delay if the mics are any farther than 15 ft away from the stage, then the delay would start to be noticeable

I think the 15 feet is a conservative statement.  I know that Craig and Carrington run at the Cats Cradle down here, with the mics closer to 30 ft from the stage, mixing it with a SBD feed using a Mackie 1202 VLZ, which I do not believe has a delay....

they may not be using a delay, but they should...even at differences of 5-10ms, the "echo" effect starts to be pronounced


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Offline nickgregory

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2004, 09:11:38 AM »
they may not be using a delay, but they should...even at differences of 5-10ms, the "echo" effect starts to be pronounced

true, I think that the key will be when does it become audible past the echo effects of the room...if that makes sense....

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2004, 02:46:18 PM »
its not even just the effects of the room, the signal coming from the sbd has no delay, coming right into the deck, and at 1ft for every ms, sound will start to sound like at echo just like when luvean said, it just creates a delay in the signal coming from the speakers, and sounds just seem not to sync up, but i guess if you cant hear it, why not keep trying

Offline nickgregory

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2004, 02:57:03 PM »
its not even just the effects of the room, the signal coming from the sbd has no delay, coming right into the deck, and at 1ft for every ms, sound will start to sound like at echo just like when luvean said, it just creates a delay in the signal coming from the speakers, and sounds just seem not to sync up, but i guess if you cant hear it, why not keep trying

I understand what you mean, I guess the point I am saying is depending on the room acoustics, the echo may not be as pronounced....We will see though I am going to run mics, 25 ft from the stage and soundboard into a mixer and see what happens...

Offline dklein

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2004, 03:59:57 AM »
Why don't you play with 2 sources in a post mix to determine your own threshold?  Put 'em in multitrack, match peaks and then start sliding a track.  

We're not listening for echo here - if you hear that you've gone waaay too far.  It's best described as a sonic 'smear'.  The clarity of hi-hat/cymbals starts to slip and vocals start to sound phasey.  At least those are the things that are easiest for me to target when I'm lining up in post-mix.

For our purposes, every millisecond is 1 foot.  If you think it starts to sound ugly at 20ms, then 20 feet is your limit.  You might check with the sound guy to see if they're running any delay on the p.a. to match direct stage sound.  Then deduct that amount.
e.g. run a 6 ms delay on p.a. - now your limit is (20-6) = 14 feet
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Offline nickgregory

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2004, 11:26:22 AM »
Why don't you play with 2 sources in a post mix to determine your own threshold?  Put 'em in multitrack, match peaks and then start sliding a track.  

This is what I have done to this point.  Issue is that I dont have 2 decks....my hope was the mixer would make it so I would not need 2 decks...


We're not listening for echo here - if you hear that you've gone waaay too far.  It's best described as a sonic 'smear'.  The clarity of hi-hat/cymbals starts to slip and vocals start to sound phasey.  At least those are the things that are easiest for me to target when I'm lining up in post-mix.

For our purposes, every millisecond is 1 foot.  If you think it starts to sound ugly at 20ms, then 20 feet is your limit.  You might check with the sound guy to see if they're running any delay on the p.a. to match direct stage sound.  Then deduct that amount.
e.g. run a 6 ms delay on p.a. - now your limit is (20-6) = 14 feet

you did a better job than I did at describing the sound, your right we are looking for phase differences in the tape....I will be interested to see when I run the mixer for the first time if it is audible....

Offline nic

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2004, 12:26:41 PM »
I dunno, phasing is going to be the least of your worries when mixing down or dealing with the delay.
the only times I've come across a venue that delayed the board feed was when they used rear stacks...but this is only in very large halls. you arent going to come across this situation in clubs and theaters


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Re:Matrix
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2004, 12:27:18 PM »
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Offline dklein

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Re:Matrix
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2004, 07:58:18 PM »
I dunno, phasing is going to be the least of your worries when mixing down or dealing with the delay.
the only times I've come across a venue that delayed the board feed was when they used rear stacks...but this is only in very large halls. you arent going to come across this situation in clubs and theaters
Actually, the only reason I even mention this is because the sound guy at one of my regular spots, a 450 capacity club, said they run a 6ms delay on the p.a. so the kick drum hits the audience at the same time from the drum and the p.a.  The drums generally sit about 6 feet behind the p.a. at this place.
KM 184 > V2 > R4
older recording gear: UA-5  / emagic A62 / laptop / JB3 / CSB / AD20 / Sharp MT-90 / Sony MDS-JE510
Playback: Pioneer DV-578 > Lucid DA 9624 >many funny little british boxes > Linn Isobarik PMS

 

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