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Author Topic: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival  (Read 16431 times)

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2017, 01:31:34 AM »
I'm not familiar with either mic, but I suspect the Shure's a better option due to its ability to articulate.  This will give you a bit more flexibility to orient the mic as best as possible, ideally allowing you to point the mid channel toward the primary sound source.  In a mid-side arrangement like this, the bulk of your direct sound comes from the mic channel pointing, well, directly at the sound source.  The side channel will capture mostly indirect  / reflected sound.

I'd stay away from "riding" your levels.  Best to set your levels at a point in which you have high confidence they will not clip.  If you ride the levels, you'll have increases and decreases in volume throughout the recording, which you'll probably want to even out in post-production.  I prefer to avoid that hassle in post-production.  Of course, I sometimes guess wrong about levels at the start, and may make an initial adjustment early in the recording -- but after that, I try not to continue doing so (fixing one volume change is easier than doing many).

FWIW, I also think 24/96 is overkill.  I doubt you'll notice a difference between 24/96 v. 24/44.1 (and that's true for a lot of gear...not just the stuff mentioned here).  My general rule of thumb is to set the sample rate based on my final destination format.  In my case, that typically means 44.1kHz.

I'd skip any and all EQ on the mic / recorder / app and do it all in post, probably including high pass filter / bass rolloff.  In a bass heavy environment, I'd be most concerned about <1> the SPLs overloading the mics themselves, about which you probably can't do anything; and <2> overloading the input on the recording device, which you might be able to address if there's a high pass filter that takes affect on the mic hardware itself.  But I suspect the high pass filter is controlled through the app, and I'm guessing all of the apps features that affect the recording are applied after analog-to-digital conversion -- at which point nothing you do via the app will fix any problems that occurred in the analog realm, and anything you can do in the digital realm you'll have more control of after-the-fact with a proper editing app.

Lastly, I think it's optimistic to expect a soundboard-like recording from an audience recording.  If that's your goal, the best thing you can do is probably to get quite close to a speaker stack so you get as much direct sound as you can, with as little indirect / reflected sound as possible.  Whether the balcony is the best place to do so may or may not be the case depending on the venue, sound setup, etc.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 12:26:36 PM »
Notwithstanding my earlier dickish comments, I did a little research and I think it's the Shure, hands down. You can't be pointing up with the Rode, but also the reviews for the Shure are pretty great. And not a fan of the Rode sound, flat sound to me. I'm not familiar with the app that comes along, but agree with Brian, I'd pick the setting most likely to handle high bass heavy SPLs and worry about the rest in post. Find a nice spot in the balcony or even better in front of a stack and you have a decent chance at a nice recording. With so so gear, or really just about any rig, the closer the better is the rule. Setting conservative levels  ( you can always boost, but it's really hard to unclip, set them peaking at -12 and enjoy the show. I wouldn't depend on the app to avoid clipping) and choosing the right setting to handle the bass are keys.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 12:29:38 PM by MakersMarc »
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Offline pontiacb

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 01:38:48 PM »
I've used the Shure mic a few times with my iPhone and got decent results.  It can't tolerate really high SPL (when I stood next to a stack and used it as a back up recording it was horribly distorted), but when I've been 20 ft back and more it's sounded good.  I've found the Motiv app which it comes with a bit flakey even though I've followed instructions to shut everything down/airplane mode etc On a couple of occasions I found the recording had failed due to 'an unknown recording error' which didn't really help me troubleshoot, but other people have found the app reliable based on reading posts elsewhere on the forums.  The app is well designed and easy to use, but I have lost a bit of faith in its reliability - could be my old iPhone5c is the issue, so might be better with a more recent model of phone.

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2017, 01:51:25 PM »
I think remote microphone capsules which can be pointed directly at the sound source will help more than anything else.
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Offline taynos

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2017, 03:06:36 PM »
A pair of Schoeps plugged a pre-amp into the Tascam will make a kickass recording.  With some ingenuity you can get it past security.   >:D tapers on here do it all the time.
not discounting this approach, but security at many EDM shows is several levels above what most members here are used to. Think Tool concert.

Tighter than walkthrough/patdown at places like Oracle Arena, Madison Square Garden etc?.

Never been to one of these clubs..not really and EDM guy more of a blues /  jamband guy but we are doing a tech experiment. I can assure you it's anot a taper friendly venue lol, From what I've learned about the aforementioned club they do patdowns but no metal detectors. It's a small club setting up shotguns i think is going to be a huge red flag with my ass thrown out the door . I'm worried even something like Tascam DR-40 might get sniffed out...

Offline taynos

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2017, 03:07:56 PM »
The Shure mv88 makes good recordings and the app has low cut and anything else you might want , but still not as good as External mics and Sony m10

That is my inclination as well. Thanks

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2017, 03:17:51 PM »
I am planning on doing some heavy post processing to make the recording sound more like a soundboard then an audience tape
How does this work?

EQ and compression to push out the audience and tighten up the music from the house so the recording is less boomy. Obviously wont sound like a sound board but "more like a soundboard" It's not a live band they are playing their remixed files off a laptop pretending as though they are doing something.. Not looking for an accurate recording by any means, plan to process the hell out of it so the question pertained to 48k vs 96k for processing headroom

Offline taynos

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2017, 03:24:21 PM »
I think you may have confused this site with the Shitty Cell Phone Recording forum.

Sorry Taynos, that was shitty.

No worries, If I had a dollar for every snarky taper I met at a dead show I'd be able to bribe the front of house for the soundboard at one of these things... I kinda new I would get flamed a bit around here. This is a total experiment and a tiny club with large security individuals (due to the sketch clientele) so I need to be stealthy

Offline taynos

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2017, 03:28:43 PM »

snip< I am aware that a stand alone tascam type of device might yield better results but might be tougher to get through security > snip

Security folks may buy that it's an MP3 player if you declare it as such.

If you want it to sound like a soundboard recording get a feed from the soundboard. Bribing the FOH may do the trick.

I think bribing the front of house would be so out of the ordinary for this type of genre of music, I am not an EDM guy but I don't think too many folks around there are trying to tape this stuff. But you never know I suppose, but then I gotta get the damn thing in too. Think I am leaning toward the iOS solution, every kid in there will be shooting the concert off their phones so no worries there.

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2017, 03:38:35 PM »
EDM.... what is this?

never mind. got it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 03:48:59 PM by Moke »

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2017, 04:37:51 PM »
I think grabbing the pair of Church cardioids in the yard sale and begging for an m10 in the yard sale section also or picking up an Edirol  r05 will by far serve you better than what you're considering. It can all be crouched pretty easily, gaff the mics to the inside of a cap.
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Offline taynos

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2017, 04:44:43 PM »
I'm not familiar with either mic, but I suspect the Shure's a better option due to its ability to articulate.  This will give you a bit more flexibility to orient the mic as best as possible, ideally allowing you to point the mid channel toward the primary sound source.  In a mid-side arrangement like this, the bulk of your direct sound comes from the mic channel pointing, well, directly at the sound source.  The side channel will capture mostly indirect  / reflected sound.

I'd stay away from "riding" your levels.  Best to set your levels at a point in which you have high confidence they will not clip.  If you ride the levels, you'll have increases and decreases in volume throughout the recording, which you'll probably want to even out in post-production.  I prefer to avoid that hassle in post-production.  Of course, I sometimes guess wrong about levels at the start, and may make an initial adjustment early in the recording -- but after that, I try not to continue doing so (fixing one volume change is easier than doing many).

FWIW, I also think 24/96 is overkill.  I doubt you'll notice a difference between 24/96 v. 24/44.1 (and that's true for a lot of gear...not just the stuff mentioned here).  My general rule of thumb is to set the sample rate based on my final destination format.  In my case, that typically means 44.1kHz.

I'd skip any and all EQ on the mic / recorder / app and do it all in post, probably including high pass filter / bass rolloff.  In a bass heavy environment, I'd be most concerned about <1> the SPLs overloading the mics themselves, about which you probably can't do anything; and <2> overloading the input on the recording device, which you might be able to address if there's a high pass filter that takes affect on the mic hardware itself.  But I suspect the high pass filter is controlled through the app, and I'm guessing all of the apps features that affect the recording are applied after analog-to-digital conversion -- at which point nothing you do via the app will fix any problems that occurred in the analog realm, and anything you can do in the digital realm you'll have more control of after-the-fact with a proper editing app.

Lastly, I think it's optimistic to expect a soundboard-like recording from an audience recording.  If that's your goal, the best thing you can do is probably to get quite close to a speaker stack so you get as much direct sound as you can, with as little indirect / reflected sound as possible.  Whether the balcony is the best place to do so may or may not be the case depending on the venue, sound setup, etc.

Thanks for the depth in your response. Sounds like the Shure is the way to due to the ability to articulate the angle toward the source . The Shure iOS app does have some EQ and processing in it but was going to give it over to my co worker who is a post sound engineer to handle the post in pro tools (I'm a video editor) def agree more flexibility than in the app. So basically using the high cut filter in the app is pointless if it's digital, I can do better in a DAW. I thought potentially it would be more beneficial in the app during recording if it was limiting the low frequencies of the signal coming in an analog sort of way....

sounds like the consensus on the board is 96khz is over kill. Which is good because the Shure app only records 48k and has the articulating head that lets me point toward the direction of the stage .

Def wasn't going to ride the levels, gonna set and forget and hope there is not clipping, I can monitor in the app as best as can though I assume in the venue the levels will be blowing me out. Def worried about SPL, not sure what i can do there believe the max SPL of the MV88 is 120. Probably going to get destroyed in there lol

Offline taynos

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2017, 04:50:40 PM »
Notwithstanding my earlier dickish comments, I did a little research and I think it's the Shure, hands down. You can't be pointing up with the Rode, but also the reviews for the Shure are pretty great. And not a fan of the Rode sound, flat sound to me. I'm not familiar with the app that comes along, but agree with Brian, I'd pick the setting most likely to handle high bass heavy SPLs and worry about the rest in post. Find a nice spot in the balcony or even better in front of a stack and you have a decent chance at a nice recording. With so so gear, or really just about any rig, the closer the better is the rule. Setting conservative levels  ( you can always boost, but it's really hard to unclip, set them peaking at -12 and enjoy the show. I wouldn't depend on the app to avoid clipping) and choosing the right setting to handle the bass are keys.

The venue isn't that big (1500 tops) and has a balcony, was gonna post up at the top center of the balcony for the best unobstructed angle. Was thinking about doing a test earlier in the week during a different show to test out some settings in the app (as well as different locations) I could try and post up near the front stack too and see what that yields. Gonna be f'ing loud in that bitch

Offline taynos

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2017, 04:55:05 PM »
I've used the Shure mic a few times with my iPhone and got decent results.  It can't tolerate really high SPL (when I stood next to a stack and used it as a back up recording it was horribly distorted), but when I've been 20 ft back and more it's sounded good.  I've found the Motiv app which it comes with a bit flakey even though I've followed instructions to shut everything down/airplane mode etc On a couple of occasions I found the recording had failed due to 'an unknown recording error' which didn't really help me troubleshoot, but other people have found the app reliable based on reading posts elsewhere on the forums.  The app is well designed and easy to use, but I have lost a bit of faith in its reliability - could be my old iPhone5c is the issue, so might be better with a more recent model of phone.

Ah ok . good to know on location. My preference is to be up on the balcony centered out of the drunken red bull vodka getting spilled on me action. Again the audience is not my speed, we are recording the show for a tech app start up concept and is for demo purposes only but def don't want any distortion.

Thanks for the heads up on the app crashing, was worried about that and am going to do some tests to make sure everything is good. I plan to record an hour long set or so, man if it failed that would suck big time. That is some risk with using a phone and an iOS app rather than a dedicated recording device i suppose.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 05:14:27 PM by taynos »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Live Recording EDM Club / Festival
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2017, 05:10:51 PM »
The main technical concern is probably going to be the potential of overload from the heavy EDM bass. 

As long as the mics or signal chain which follows them doesn't overload while making the recording, you're better off reducing bass levels afterwards as necessary along with doing whatever other frequency correction or sweetening is needed using EQ, where you (or your audio editor friend) can do so in a controllable way. 

Getting close to a PA speaker will make for a drier and more soundboard-like recording with less room and audience in it if that's what you are after, in part because that proximity to the PA increases SPL from the PA relative to the other sounds in the room, but that increased SPL will also increase the potential of overload.  You may need to do it a few times to figure out if results from the balcony is better than on the floor directly in front of a PA speaker, and how close you can get to the PA without overloading if you find you prefer that approach.  If there are stereo panning or other stereo effects you want to preserve, then you'll need to record from a more centered position where you have a direct line of sight to both left and right PA speakers.  You'll inevitably get more room and audience sound from such a position, but the front center of the balcony is often a good spot as it has a direct line of sight to both PAs and puts distance between you and the audience below.
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